Alan Orr Chi Sao to Gor Sao clip.

[Ali. R]

I don’t have a track record dealing with posting here. Just been dealing with a bunch of hateful people, and if I put that clip up it would only p everyone off and they will turn it into a scandal like always; taking another avenue of discussion.

After the last clip demoing poor wing chun skills, as said by most of the people here. I wouldn’t have a chance in h3ll if I did or didn’t, unless something changed?

I like my status of being a very poor wing chun practitioner here on this forum.

[Graham H]

really it has it down to a science???? and yet not once can anyone post any clips of this style actually winning in a fight against a decent fighter, not in K1, sanda, sanshou, MMA or even just a sparring match for lords sake.

Science is proven by the application of its theories in an actual testing environment what testing enviroment does wing chun use these days to test its theories, apart from this forum?

We try and do the best we can do without breaking any laws. Ving Tsun is not for competition. It relies on things that cannot be controlled by rules and regulations.

Punches and chops to the throat, gouging of the eyes, kicks to the groin etc etc. If you take these away then you are left with what? Two guys trying to kick box each other for scoring points. The aim of Ving Tsun is to finish the fight by any means as quick as possible. Is that possible with a referee watching on? No its not! Ving Tsun is not a sport. Put Ving Tsun in a ring with MMA rules against conditioned MMA fighters then its obvious what will happen. That's not the point why I practice VT and I have no ambition to prove myself or the effectiveness of the system to anybody.

Ving Tsun does not use protective gloves because the bigger the hand the less chance of utilizing the correct punching strategy. That video that Kevin put up the other day explained these reasons in more depth.

In my lineage we spar. The sparring is hard and physically demanding and cuts, bruises and black eyes are normal. Are we trying to knock each other out? No but does that make it ineffective?

The way that I like to explain my reasons for doing Ving Tsun is that it may give me more of a chance in a real fight than if totally untrained. I don't need proof or medals and trophies in order to attain a certain amount of skill and conditioning that may get me out of trouble.

Stop playing that card because its pointless.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=LFJ;1206070]On the contrary the name "hook" may be confusing you. A hook by definition is not a straight line. If you're talking about a straight line, you're not talking about a hook.
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You apparently do not jnow a good boxing hook or the wing chun ounch that I discussed--- but rattle on!!!

[LFJ]

You apparently do not jnow a good boxing hook or the wing chun ounch that I discussed--- but rattle on!!!

I know enough basic geometry not to call straight line a hook or vice versa. And you have yet to actually discuss the Wing Chun punch.

[Vajramusti]

I know enough basic geometry not to call straight line a hook or vice versa. And you have yet to actually discuss the Wing Chun punch.

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you are wasting time-trolling.

[Frost]

We try and do the best we can do without breaking any laws. Ving Tsun is not for competition. It relies on things that cannot be controlled by rules and regulations.

Punches and chops to the throat, gouging of the eyes, kicks to the groin etc etc. If you take these away then you are left with what? Two guys trying to kick box each other for scoring points. The aim of Ving Tsun is to finish the fight by any means as quick as possible. Is that possible with a referee watching on? No its not! Ving Tsun is not a sport. Put Ving Tsun in a ring with MMA rules against conditioned MMA fighters then its obvious what will happen. That's not the point why I practice VT and I have no ambition to prove myself or the effectiveness of the system to anybody.

Ving Tsun does not use protective gloves because the bigger the hand the less chance of utilizing the correct punching strategy. That video that Kevin put up the other day explained these reasons in more depth.

In my lineage we spar. The sparring is hard and physically demanding and cuts, bruises and black eyes are normal. Are we trying to knock each other out? No but does that make it ineffective?

The way that I like to explain my reasons for doing Ving Tsun is that it may give me more of a chance in a real fight than if totally untrained. I don't need proof or medals and trophies in order to attain a certain amount of skill and conditioning that may get me out of trouble.

Stop playing that card because its pointless.

Ill stop playing that card when you stop playing the deadly striking card
There have been no rules vale tudo events going on for decades: brazil, Russia, on reservations in the states and Canada all of which allowed no gloves and you could attack the groin and joints just no throat or eye pokes (and if you have to rely on those in your art then I would have thought we would have seem a lot more wing chun people up on GBH and murder charges everytime they fight wouldn’t you?)
Not to mention gypsy and underground boxing here in the uk don’t use gloves a lot of the time, so the whole big glove and rule thing is just a screen to hide behind, if you want to test yourself you can its easy to do, if you don’t fine but then please don’t play the whole more scientific and superior card (not speaking to you here graham as you haven’t, its a general you well a specific one but not aimed at you)

Those roof top matches were more sports like than anything, no eye gauging or throat chops, letting people get back up etc and everyone walking home at the end,

Your reasons for training are perfectly valid and for once im not disagreeing with you that much, just saying to certain people please don’t claim somethings superior or has fighting down to an actual science if its not been proved as such

[LFJ]

you are wasting time-trolling.

Trolling? Calling a straight line a hook purely to cause trouble, making personal attacks, changing the topic, and ignoring the discussion altogether is trolling.

I guess you're right, since you won't engage in actual discussion on the details of the actions, as I have legitimately tried, time is wasted on someone like you.

[LFJ]

Your reasons for training are perfectly valid and for once im not disagreeing with you that much, just saying to certain people please don’t claim somethings superior or has fighting down to an actual science if its not been proved as such

It has. You're just looking to run irrelevant tests. How the structure and action of a taan-sau works is scientific and is proven to perform its desired function in application by practitioners of the system.

The system is superior in dealing with other styles than say boxing, simply because boxing is a game with rules that never puts it in situations to face various kicks and take down defense, for example. Wing Chun involves principles that can be applied to defend against any sort of adversary. So in that sense its superiority is obvious.

Looking to see if a Wing Chun fighter can successfully compete in sport fighting is really about the individual practitioner, and no longer about the science of the system. The taan-sau still performs its function by its scientific nature regardless of whether or not a certain individual can use it properly in the ring. It's always down to the individual to train it well.

[Ali. R]

In my lineage we spar. The sparring is hard and physically demanding and cuts, bruises and black eyes are normal. Are we trying to knock each other out? No but does that make it ineffective?

Everything you said is true, the reason why I’d handed that guy his a$$ , was because I’d went out of town one time and had the bass player of my rock group, who looks just like ‘Ted Nugent’, but only weighted 125lbs, run classes for me. And I’m the Godfather of his children, ‘little Steven’ and 'Rebecca'.

And this known bully who at the time was in the MMA circuit in ‘Detroit’; he had a championship belt as well. He attacked my student while claiming he was looking for me… I knew this kid for years ‘Steven Gold’, a little Jewish kid who I’d kept from being bullied for years.

I’ve known that guy (MMA guy), so knew I could take him; I've had before. He was a known prison bully (Jackson Pen), but when I came home from my trip and seen that mouse under his eye (Steven), I’d just lost it, went to that clown's school like a gentleman, but walked out like a beast.

[Graham H]

Ill stop playing that card when you stop playing the deadly striking card
There have been no rules vale tudo events going on for decades: brazil, Russia, on reservations in the states and Canada all of which allowed no gloves and you could attack the groin and joints just no throat or eye pokes (and if you have to rely on those in your art then I would have thought we would have seem a lot more wing chun people up on GBH and murder charges everytime they fight wouldn’t you?)
Not to mention gypsy and underground boxing here in the uk don’t use gloves a lot of the time, so the whole big glove and rule thing is just a screen to hide behind, if you want to test yourself you can its easy to do, if you don’t fine but then please don’t play the whole more scientific and superior card (not speaking to you here graham as you haven’t, its a general you well a specific one but not aimed at you)

Those roof top matches were more sports like than anything, no eye gauging or throat chops, letting people get back up etc and everyone walking home at the end,

Your reasons for training are perfectly valid and for once im not disagreeing with you that much, just saying to certain people please don’t claim somethings superior or has fighting down to an actual science if its not been proved as such

Dude what is your problem. I'm just a normal guy who enjoys Ving Tsun and the occasional scrape. Just because I'm not fighting for any belts or chuck Liddell next week it makes Ving Tsun rubbish does it? Why the f?,.k are you posting on here anyways. Chip off to an MMA forum and ply your evil trade there!

[Frost]

It has. You're just looking to run irrelevant tests. How the structure and action of a taan-sau works is scientific and is proven to perform its desired function in application by practitioners of the system.

The system is superior in dealing with other styles than say boxing, simply because boxing is a game with rules that never puts it in situations to face various kicks and take down defense, for example. Wing Chun involves principles that can be applied to defend against any sort of adversary. So in that sense its superiority is obvious.

Looking to see if a Wing Chun fighter can successfully compete in sport fighting is really about the individual practitioner, and no longer about the science of the system. The taan-sau still performs its function by its scientific nature regardless of whether or not a certain individual can use it properly in the ring. It's always down to the individual to train it well.

and yet we can find examples of boxing actually beating other styles both in and out of the ring and under different rule sets, wing chun...well thats another story

Actually when the single biggest style of chinese martial art out there cant post more than a handful of good fighting clips (competition or self defense) and even when they are posted people still argue about whether its good wing chun or not. than any reasonable person would really question its effectiveness and it no longer becomes about the person it becomes about the art when out of so many practitioners so few can post anything good

it seems a case of the theory sounds fine and scientific when left as a stand alone theory, but the actual application is not so sound and not so scientific

[Vajramusti]

it seems a case of the theory sounds fine and scientific when left as a stand alone theory, but the actual application is not so sound and not so scientific

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Unfortunately many wc folks mouth the theory but do not really understand the concepts and principles.

[GlennR]

You can't physically keep your elbow down and in and hook with a horizontal fist. With the fist vertical it is possible, but as I've been describing in previous posts, that causes a straight path of the fist and is no longer a hook.



If he moves inside your hook (toward you- imagine a grappler's entrance to clinch), your fist would go behind him. So an elbow would be impossible.



It's similar to the Biu-ji action with the elbow cutting the line in from the outside as I described it. It can still be a strike, but the main thing is bringing the elbow to the center and shifting to prevent them coming in.

Elbow position is the key in Wing Chun. It's the main theme developed in Siu-nim-tau.

It's a mistake to look at Biu-ji actions and incorporate them into your core strategy (such as throwing elbows, going beneath your bridge, fully extending both arms together). Most things in Biu-ji should in fact never be used outside of emergency. WSL said the form is open-ended and things could be added to it if another situation were to come up, but it pretty much covers the bases and the form is often taught rather late in one's learning career as it violates WC principles. You don't want to be bringing BJ thinking into your core strategy. A good WC fighter will never have to use BJ.

Two things.

Firstly, you can hook with vertical and/or horizontal fist

Secondly, the scenario of the guy slipping and moving in is a fair thing. However if he doesn't move in?
I'm not into "he does this I do that" either but if he keeps the same distance for me a hook could suit

[GlennR]

Glen, IME the man gang sao technique demonstrated by WSL in the vid is not just a pull (even if that is all WSL chose to show on that particular seminar). The short sharp retracting energy should cause the hand to strike, the strike then naturally becomes a jerking action upon contact. The target area is the back of the neck where the head meets the neck which is a horrible place to be hit and contains a major nerve plexus (and accu points if you prefer) thus the pull / jerking action is also a strike and the strike is also an attack on the posture and balance of the opponent.

We call that a latch where we train and it is very useful, and painful, I agree.

However the scenario was that the other hand is tied up, there's no punch to pull him into.

So your hand is free, somewhere over his right shoulder as he has evaded the shot..,. What would you do?

[GlennR]

Exactly. The point of this discussion was never about the effectiveness of hook punches or whether or not one should incorporate them, but just about being clear on what is and isn't Wing Chun in principle and concept, and why.

If it works and you like it, do whatever. But one can adhere to their WC strategy and perform just as well, and in many cases better. The only thing a WC fighter would need to cross train is perhaps ground fighting should they find themselves there. They have the stand up to a science that doesn't need modification to end fights against any style, IMO, unlike the game of boxing, for example.

Mmmmmm..... I think the last thing you want to do is suggest boxings is inferior to WC as self defense. The evidence just isn't there