Questions for Graham

[k gledhill]

Well, I try to follow your lead, Kevin, and exhibit extreme tension.

But to answer your question, such as it was, sometimes there is redirecting. Pak Sau for example connects as a punch is still on it's forward path, so the action naturally moves it slightly off of its original path.

so you stick to hands and redirect stuff, thought as much.

[YouKnowWho]

We will never know what situations we will be dealing with, and dont train to try to use an x against a y. We train to assimilate Ving Tsun concepts, not techniques.

"Sticky hand" training is not a simulation tool for us.

You need to train your WC principle to deal with non-WC people. Most of the attack that come from a non-WC guy is in the list that I stated.

Since sticky hand training is not suitable for those non-WC guy's attack, other simulation training will be needed.

[k gledhill]

You need to train your WC principle to deal with non-WC people. Most of the attack that come from a non-WC guy is in the list that I stated.

Since sticky hand training is not suitable for those simulation, other simulation training will be needed.

You leave the " sticky stuff " to us and we will leave the you know what to you know who ; )

[YouKnowWho]

You leave the " sticky stuff " to us and we will leave the you know what to you know who ; )

I'm not talking about the "sticky stuff", I'm talking about the "specific fighting applications". I just don't understand why a WC guy only thinks about to fight another WC guy.

One partner training that I like is to ask my partner to attack me with full speed and try to knock me head off. What style am I training? I truly don't know and don't care.

The discussion started from BPWT's comment. I think it's a valid comment and need more in depth discussion.

So does this mean you only train partner work via Chi Sau? (And sparring)

You never, for example, have a partner agree to just feed you punches so you can work on, say, Pak Da with angling and/or footwork for entering?

[BPWT]

so you stick to hands and redirect stuff, thought as much.

How long does it take for Pak Sau to redirect? Not long. That's all the redirecting that's required.

Why do you insist on making a discussion an argument based on your deliberate misunderstanding of what others do? I gave the example of Pak Sau, and you know full well this doesn't require any sort of extended contact. T_Ray said PBVT has similar development drills to what I described.

Why does this create such a problem for you?

[KPM]

Yes. I really have been genuinely trying to explain... I wish I could do it better.
Yes we "apply" our Ving Tsun when we fight or are attacked, but in our training we dont practice doing any specific moves against a particular attack. Like say, having a guy attack us in a certain way and trying to apply a motion from the forms as a means of developing that as a response in a fight.
I'm sorry if this is still not clear.

Yes, thanks. That is clearer. But I assume you wouldn't be opposed to isolating a particular technique to practice it and develop it and correct any errors? Like my example of the tennis coach isolating the backhand for practice and then sending the player back in the game to use it spontaneously? Because that's how I see it. Not a choreographed "we do this move to counter against that move" kind of approach.

[KPM]

You poor misguided tool , tsk , tsk , do you lean and redirect while all this is going on ?? ; )

Come on. Be nice. This is what we are trying to avoid because it takes a discussion off into non-productive LaLa land fast!

[KPM]

We will never know what situations we will be dealing with, and dont train to try to use an x against a y. We train to assimilate Ving Tsun concepts, not techniques.

"Sticky hand" training is not a simulation tool for us.

I agree that Chi Sau is not a "simulation." It is the thing itself and should transfer over to fighting if trained properly. But I can see what John is saying as well. Certain things aren't going to show up in a Chi Sau exchange with another Wing Chun guy unless he purposefully does them for you...like a shoot for a takedown, an attempted grapple, or an extended sidekick. So how do you guys train to insure you will be ready for something like that? Something that is "non-Wing Chun"?

[LFJ]

@KPM

Some folks fixate on "technique" application. So they ask questions like you; "what do you do if someone punches you like this?" with ideas of technique responses like paak-da and taan-da, etc.. In the end you're still asking what technique we will use to respond. If we do that, we are back to preset 1:1 application, and as we're trying to explain, we don't do that.

In application of concepts the tool used is not the point. So we don't train to develop specific technique responses to particular attacks. If you fixate on the finger you miss the big picture. No matter how spontaneously you apply your technique responses, that's still what they are, and that is not the same as applying concepts. Training to develop that is trying to replicate an art form that has already been painted for you, rather than training a skill to be mastered and uniquely employed by each individual. Don't be a slave to the system and all that...

[LFJ]

Yes, thanks. That is clearer. But I assume you wouldn't be opposed to isolating a particular technique to practice it and develop it and correct any errors? Like my example of the tennis coach isolating the backhand for practice and then sending the player back in the game to use it spontaneously? Because that's how I see it. Not a choreographed "we do this move to counter against that move" kind of approach.

You're still talking about technique application no matter how spontaneous.

Structural errors are corrected by the training forms and chi-sau drills, not by conditioned technique responses, which would do more harm.

[KPM]

Some folks fixate on "technique" application. So they ask questions like you; "what do you do if someone punches you like this?" with ideas of technique responses like paak-da and taan-da, etc.. In the end you're still asking what technique we will use to respond. If we do that, we are back to preset 1:1 application, and as we're trying to explain, we don't do that.

No, that's not what I mean. If your Chi Sau partner suddenly shoves you away as he steps back and launches a hard kickboxer style sidekick, how do you respond? Maybe you sidestep, maybe you Gan Sau, maybe you Gum Sau...or something else. It's not "preset." But there is certainly a timing and distance and the element of the unexpected involved here that needs to be worked on to ensure that you are prepared for such a thing when sparring or fighting a non-Wing Chun guy. Same for someone shooting in for the takedown. I don't think "standard" Wing Chun training prepares you for things like that. Do you? In other words, how do you train or prepare for "non-Wing Chun" attacks that are very different from what you practice on a daily basis? How do you know for sure you can stop a boxer's tight hook if no one has ever thrown one at you?

[KPM]

Structural errors are corrected by the training forms and chi-sau drills, not by conditioned technique responses, which would do more harm.

Not a criticism, just a comment. Many people say there is so much more to Wing Chun than just forms and Chi Sau. That's one of the main criticisms we get from non-Wing Chun folk...that all we do is forms and Chi Sau.

[KPM]

We can isolate and work on errors in chi sao. Chi sao is a development environment for us, not a pseudo competitive thing. We work together. We drill in chi sao, both repetitively as well as spontaneuosly.

Ok. Thanks. Then it sounds like we are in agreement on this point, despite all the prior rhetoric. But that would also suggest that there is a right and wrong way to do technique...yes? Therefore there would be a proper "position" for the Bong, Taan, etc. that defends you the best and sets up your own strikes?

[Graham H]

No, that's not what I mean. If your Chi Sau partner suddenly shoves you away as he steps back and launches a hard kickboxer style sidekick, how do you respond?

Chi Sau is a co-operative drilling platform. You should know what the drill is improving and develop it. I doubt anybody in a street fight will push you back and do a "kickboxer style side kick" I've not witnessed that before lol

Maybe you sidestep, maybe you Gan Sau, maybe you Gum Sau...or something else.

You gan sau or gum kicks do you? oh dear

It's not "preset." But there is certainly a timing and distance and the element of the unexpected involved here that needs to be worked on to ensure that you are prepared for such a thing when sparring or fighting a non-Wing Chun guy. Same for someone shooting in for the takedown. I don't think "standard" Wing Chun training prepares you for things like that. Do you? In other words, how do you train or prepare for "non-Wing Chun" attacks that are very different from what you practice on a daily basis? How do you know for sure you can stop a boxer's tight hook if no one has ever thrown one at you?

Timing and distance is improved by the correct practice of chi sau - gor sau - sparring. As soon as you try and second guess what your opponent is going to throw you are in trouble.

The last thing on my mind when I go into a fight is "can this guy box, is he going to throw a right hook!?"

.......no way Jose!

[k gledhill]

Yes. There are correct or incorrect positions and responses if thats what you mean?
If your response is incorrect you can/will be hit, and corrected. This is part of what we do for each other in chi sao.
It is where our VT first breaks down and we have to train to get to a level where we are not routinely making mistakes in chi sao...
Then we can move into goh sao, where our VT breaks down again.

Good post. High speed errors : / this where Philipp is jaw dropping fast . I get students asking what he is doing in clips because they can't see it after repeated attempts to decipher the speed.