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Thread: Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

  1. #61
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    I searched alot for some lyrics of Shaolin Pao Chui, the Wu Shanlin`s set.

    But cannot find it with google, or this search engine here, any one know a link ?

    I am just blown away each time I watch the video of this master Yongxin doing the set and i have watched it more then 1000 times perhaps.

    Its the most mysterius set to look at for me, you see something but you dont. His moves are so clear and perfect, but at the same time it hides the hidden internal ways...

    and to read that it is only 2/3 of the set, i wonder how the 3rd part is.

    Well, anyway, seeing the video another time with lyrics seems very cool
    Last edited by Eugene; 03-24-2010 at 02:31 AM.

  2. #62
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    @eugene

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

    Earlier on the thread, i can't view you tube but i think this contains the third section of pao quan. It starts near the end of the standard version and does the complete third section.

    And for your interest;

    http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNTk4MDk1OTY=.html

    Its a interesting version of pao quan, The schools master is a disciple of Yang Gui Wu (himself a high student of Shi De Gen and he should have trained with Wushanlin) however this seems different to other Pao quans from Degens lineage and Wusanlins, so i assume it has come form one of the headmasters other teachers...

    I like the way their 'san Za chui' looks, but I don't think it shares the practicality and sheer viciousness of the standard version of the move. (the move where the elbows drop in horse stance).

  3. #63
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    @RenDaHai,

    Thx for the video`s, the first one was the right one, it shows the 3rd set very clear.

    I am wondering about Wu Shanlin`s Pao Chui ( Quan ) line. I was reading an article today that he was the second son of Wu Gulun, who brought Xin Yi Ba into the system.

    Did Master Wu Shanlin practice his famous Pau Chui set with Xin Yi ba ?

    Zhing Qingje, I believe his name is, is on the pictures also doing Xin Yi ba, and shi De Jian and Wu Nanfang al from this lineage. They use different body structures as you said doing the sets.

    Wugulun is doing the sets according to there * shen fa * and Xin Yi Ba right ?

    The different is so large, for example Shi Yong Wen or Shi Yongxin doing the Shaolin Pao Chui.

    Wu Shanlin must have did this set in 2 types of shen fa i suppose, and to one person he showd the classic and the others the wugulun way ?

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    Wu Shanlin must have did this set in 2 types of shen fa i suppose, and to one person he showd the classic and the others the wugulun way ?
    i dont think wu gulun practiced with the small frame structure at all. i think others who have trained with his son, wu shanlin, have said that he didnt practice that way either.

    not sure who started it, but if shi xingxing (zhang qinghe) practiced that way and taught it to shi dejian and shi defang (wu nanfang), it may have even come from his first master, ven. shi chunqian- head monk of jingang monastery who later encouraged him to study from wu shanlin.

  5. #65
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    @LFJ

    Wugulun and Wu Shanlin didnt practice with the small frame then, maybe it came from this Master and Doctor ChunQian, the second master of ZhangQinghe.

    I was just wondering where this kind of shen fa comes from.

    @RenDaHai,

    That stranger doing Pao Quan, somehow I have seen him do Xiao Hong Quan as well one time on you tube or somewhere.... I have to look for it.
    The video seems in the middle between the small and big work.

    I dont know so much about the princibles of wushu, that is above my head for now !

  6. #66
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    I have 2 video`s that seems to share some kind of movement relating to the Yongxin Pao Quan video maybe..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Aci5zxTRYM Wu Nanfang fron 0:46 Sec, opening of the hand going to the side,

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ivbC4eKqz7o Yongxin, also somekind of opening of the hand and going to the side at 0:20 sec,

    And the Pao video of Yongxin at 0:23 sec, I dont know so much about all forms, but do they use this posture also ? I only have seen such a posture in the Xin Yi Ba video of Yang Gui Wu in the buddha hall - fist next to the ear and knee up..
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=myn4uvWGmJo

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Sal, a couple fo those videos are marked private and can't be viewed.

    thanks.
    Which ones?
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  8. #68
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    I have been watching these days this video, and it looks alot like the yongxin`s one, his line, most i c, look to the left when pulling the elbows down in mabu...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSAu_y6H81s ( shi de jian, on a wall doing pao quan, from 1:48, VERY impressive !

    I hope you guys dont mind me asking alot, I am a lil enthausiastic, and very interested ....

  9. #69
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    Do you guys know what kind of fist this is, i copied the stances of Shi Yongxins Pao Quan,

    It seems he punches with the side of his pink, he turns his wrist kinda ..
    I dont see alot of other performers turn there fist in this way

    Sorry that the pictures arent any bigger.

    Greetings Eugene

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eugene View Post
    Do you guys know what kind of fist this is, i copied the stances of Shi Yongxins Pao Quan,

    It seems he punches with the side of his pink, he turns his wrist kinda ..
    I dont see alot of other performers turn there fist in this way

    Sorry that the pictures arent any bigger.

    Greetings Eugene
    That's an internal punch, as done in Tai Chi.
    Why? Because Tai Chi is partly based on Pao Chui sets.

    It can be used a grasp, or a hook, or a pressure point strike.
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  11. #71
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    @ Eugene,

    In a lot of the more traditional schools the vast majority of strikes are done this way. Its generally referred to as a hammer. Its kind of like doing a downwards hammer fist but using it in all directions. Its not with the 'pinky' but with edge of the hand and parts of the palm. Its generally quite blunt. If you get it right you can hit a rough brick wall full power without hurting yourself, which you can't do with an ordinary fist. Generally used in powerful movements. Can strike anywhere.

    If you watch more of Wugulun schools videos (dejian, wunanfang etc) you will see they almost never use a fist, they nearly always use this type of hammer, even on 'straight' punches.

    As Sal said, it is an internal strike. I can't go too far into the specifics, but the wrist is often turned up slightly so the centre of the palm faces into the strike. (this is important).
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 05-06-2010 at 09:23 AM.

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by RenDaHai View Post
    @ Eugene,

    In a lot of the more traditional schools the vast majority of strikes are done this way. Its generally referred to as a hammer. Its kind of like doing a downwards hammer fist but using it in all directions. Its not with the 'pinky' but with edge of the hand and parts of the palm. Its generally quite blunt. If you get it right you can hit a rough brick wall full power without hurting yourself, which you can't do with an ordinary fist. Generally used in powerful movements. Can strike anywhere.

    If you watch more of Wugulun schools videos (dejian, wunanfang etc) you will see they almost never use a fist, they nearly always use this type of hammer, even on 'straight' punches.

    As Sal said, it is an internal strike. I can't go too far into the specifics, but the wrist is often turned up slightly so the centre of the palm faces into the strike. (this is important).

    Exactly.

    This Chui, hammer, strike goes back to the Tang or even Sui dynasty in military martial arts.
    They had the "red fist" and the "white hammer" back then, which went to Shaolin eventually.
    The earliest use in Shaolin is supposed to be in the Rou Xing Chui, Soft Shaped Hammers set, which was said to have been performed for the first Tang emperor, which the Shaolin monks mentioned on the stele were the ones that help usher him into power (by saving the kidnapped nephew and all that).
    I have this set showing on my YouTube.com page.
    It alternates a soft movement with a hard hammer movement every other posture. Interesting set.

    Eventually this stuff morphed into the Hong Quan for soft and the Pao Chui for hard, as other influences merged into Shaolin's Rou Quan material over time.
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  13. #73
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    Thx alot Mr. Canzonieri and RenDaHai,

    i guess that`s why they call it pao, as in explosive fist, or exploding fist, meaning it can break through anything. Can I see it that way ?

    Quite a cool fist, never knew anything would excist like this.

    I am very happy with these awnsers, and extra information of the background of this hammer fist !

  14. #74
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    @Sal, Cool! Great info (as always). I wondered about 'Rouxingchui'. THe hammer is such a specific technique you could probably use knowledge of it to identify links between styles.

    @Eugene, This technique is very good, I'll tell you a little more about it. When you use a fist you will find you can never punch with full full power. Even against a soft punch bag, if you do a 'superhero' punch (like in marvel comics, i.e a massive swinging punch) you will snap your wrist. The wrist is actually a little delicate. THe 'hammer' however is done in such a way as to eliminate the wrist joint. THe wrist is turned in such a way so that the edge of the hand locks in a straight line with the forearm. Then you turn the forearm in such a way so as to strike with basically the bottom normally unused part of the fist and the outside side of it. So you are basically hitting with the end of the forearm bone. Its like hitting with the end of a pipe. It is blunt, and therefore the force hits 'inside'. Rather than creating a localized sharp stabbing force it shakes the inside. Also because the centre of the palm faces towards the strike it can be used to 'Fa Qi' but we won't go into that. YOu don't have to worry about hurting yourself, you can strike out with absolutely full power. (Using a bare fist it is actually very easy to hurt yourself against the hard parts of the opponents face).

    ANy technique in any form from shaolin can be done using the hammer instead of the fist or palm. SOme schools (typically Nanyaun pai) use the hammer alot. Xiyuanpai (the 'standard' shaolin) typically favours the fist but for the technique 'dan bian' it still uses the hammer. (the picture you showed was the technique 'xie xing' it is identical to 'dan bian' except the technique is used accross the body instead of along. Dan bian is one of the absolute most important techniques of shaolin (and many other styles, in fact i don't know of a style that does not use it, even wing chun contains the technique in the form 'xiao nian tao').

    Dan bian, xie xing and Pan zhou are all one technique. They are part of the continuos turning waist technique of shaolin, there is a way to link them and form almost a complete striking style using effectively only dan bian.
    Last edited by RenDaHai; 05-08-2010 at 10:08 AM.

  15. #75
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    One thing i forgot to mention about the hammer;

    What also makes it an excellent technique is that it can be used in almost any direction successfully.

    Bruce lee said that 'the shortest distance between two points is a straight line'. This is absolutely true. However many people have misunderstood this information and taken it to mean that you should always use straight punches. One should understand that all of the joints in the human body provide circular movement. COmbining them to form straight lines is not easy. Often to do a straight punch from certain positions actually does not follow a straight line, you have to prepare the fist. Often the 'straight line' is a short arc of the forearm. In such a situation you will find the hammer more useful than the fist.

    If you imagine a position of say blocking high, in order to turn that fist into a straight punch you would have to 're insert' it and follow a circular path. When ironically a straighter faster line would be formed by simply swinging the arm in a short downwards arc. Even though the arc is downwards the force can still be converted to going forewards by a minute final movement of the hammer. Its difficult to describe in words.

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