Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Yao Sing]

no we are not like karate.

on a trip to china there was an old chinese man performing for our group. he did a straight sword form that was exactly like ours. he did a hsing yi linkage form that was exactly like ours...how would this old man know our material if it was japanese or indonesian karate?

Ok, let's get the points together and not jump around so much. You say SD is not like Karate but then go on with an example showing how it isn't exactly Karate.

The argument is that SD is performed like Karate. Whether the sets are Japanese or Chinese is a distinctly different argument.

Now in your eyes, and your opinion, SD is not at all like Karate but to many others outside SD the practitioners move more like Karate than Kung Fu. And these others for the most part have extensive training to back them up. Some with training in both Japanese and Chinese arts.

Seems like the only ones that don't believe it looks like Karate are the SD folks.

Personally I don't care either way. It's just an interesting puzzle to solve.

[lunghushan]

The puzzle is how people get duped into these big chain schools. That's the puzzle.

We talked about that a lot on the Oom Young Doe thread. Basically they have no prior experience and don't know any better.

It's quite a concept if you think about it. Do you think the reason these people like Sin The can succeed so well is that nobody can track down their lineage because they started so long ago?

It seems these days you'd have a much harder time because people could track down your story.

[Leto]

I've got to speak up here, too. The forms taught in shaolin do are not like karate kata at all. People on here are talking about these martial arts that they don't seem to have any knowledge of. Are we talking Okinawan karate, or the derived Japanese methods? Naha te, or Shuri te? Or generic American karate/kempo? I can tell you that shaolin do has neither Okinawan nor Japanese material in its curriculum. The closest thing would be the way some of the lower belt techniques are taught as one-step sparring. None of the forms are even close. The most "karate-like" thing are the unforms and belts (which have nothing to do with the material itself).

Another random point...naginata do is not a part of karate do, it is a Japanese koryu/budo. Karate is an Okinawan art that was exported to Japan in the 20th century. Okinawan karate is derived from old styles of Chinese martial arts, including southern shaolin styles. Some Okinawan styles, like Uechi Ryu, are still very close to their Chinese roots.

If you practice a style of karate, and have also practiced shaolin do, and have found matching material please speak up. What style do you practice? What kata does your style have that are also in shaolin do?

[lunghushan]

I've got to speak up here, too. The forms taught in shaolin do are not like karate kata at all.

...

If you practice a style of karate, and have also practiced shaolin do, and have found matching material please speak up. What style do you practice? What kata does your style have that are also in shaolin do?

Do people actually READ the forum? What was said that the way the katas were done, the body movement, body method, "shen fa" was like karate. Nobody said the katas were karate katas.

[kungfujunky]

So it really is even worse than the # of sets ... they do all their sets the same, like KARATE???

They don't do their taiji like karate, do they?

ummm you said that

[BentMonk]

http://iron-body.com/bboard/index.php/topic,370.0.html

This is why I feel that nearly all lineage claims made by anyone should be taken with a grain of salt and not used as any real measure of authenticity or effectiveness. My 12 years in SD have given me strength, flexibility (well, more than I had when I started, which was none), improved balance and coordination, a well conditioned body, a more focused mind, the ability to defend myself and my family, and a second family. This is more than I asked for when I started. If I had not gotten these things, I would not still be training there, regardless of what the CMA or any other community thought about SD. The fact that I have gotten all of these things from SD is why I continue to train there despite the constant beating of this poor horse. I think my posts on this thread, and everywhere else on the net show that I am neither naive or stupid. The people on this thread and I are not the only ones who feel this way about SD. There are a few thousand people besides us. I direct your attention back to the link I posted above before you sing me the "no one said it wasn't beneficial, it's just not CMA" song. We now return you to your regularly scheduled program already in progress.

[Learn]

I would agree that SD is not Karate. I've studied Japanese arts and it's not the same. The use of Japanese terms does cause confusion however. Radhnoti, your quotes from de Thouars (sp?) are interesting and relevant. However, SD does not purport to teach principles in depth, but a large number of forms. It is simply ridiculous to think that learning many forms from many styles also enables one to learn the principles of those styles in depth. I'm all for learning the relevant concepts of many different styles, but you should market yourself as such. That's where SD goes awry. The whole lineage thing, which really means nothing to me, is so ridiculous and fantastical. SD does itself no favors with it. If Sin The has mastered certain arts, great, teach them. But to suggest that by studying SD you can learn all of these different arts, which is how it is taught, is not credible. To suggest you can study a particular art in detail assumes that your teacher has mastered all of them and you can pick and choose, which is not the case.

[Learn]

Learning forms is not learning the principles. Forms are a catalog of techniques. The strategies and principles must be taught beyond the forms. The forms are stepping stones to understanding. That's why you can't learn a style by video. You need an instructor to explain the nuances of every movement. This assumes that forms are a good way to learn a martial art, about which there is significant debate. I did a pretty good dao form in my day. I still love working Chinese sword. However, it really didn't teach me to fight with it.

Judge Pen, saw your Quan Do form on video. Congratulations. You did a nice job with a very difficult weapon. I used to practice that form with a homemade weapon made by an assistant instructor with a torch. It must have weighed forty pounds. I don't regret practicing that form. It makes you strong. I'm glad you enjoyed it.

But do you really think you could fight with that weapon based on that form? It seems to me a relevant question to this discussion.

[lunghushan]

ummm you said that

No, I did NOT. I said 'do it like karate'. Do you even understand the distinction? Do you even understand how the body movement behind Yang taiji for example is different from karate?

[lunghushan]

It seems like what we're dealing with here is people who have had exposure to 'Shaolin-Do'. They do Shaolin-Do. They do dozens of katas, all the same.

They don't have any understanding of stance work or anything like that.

This seems obvious because they don't even understand the distinction between a karate kata and doing it like karate.

Their master has NO videos of his movements (surprise), so who can really tell. Anyway, whatever.

If Shaolin-Do people are having fun at what they do and they like it, then who are we to criticize them? They are just another chain school.

[Learn]

It is unfortunate that SD purports, or maybe purported, itself to be a type of karate, for marketing purposes because at some time karate was the thing to do in the US. In the seventies, Kung Fu became the buzzword. It's interesting that SD didn't latch onto that. Ultimately the disappointment is that SD didn't just market itself and not latch onto what was big at the time. But perhaps the ultimate disapointment is that someone marketed himself as the grandmaster of all the shaolin styles, the animals, ba gau, tai ji, hsing i, the weapons, etc, when such is obviously impossible.

[BentMonk]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics.

[kungfujunky]

lung you are a bitter man lol

all we do is stances lol

in our warmups in our training in our forms in our sparring in everything we work stances

next assumed idea please.

or better yet quit pretending to know and go see a class.

[lunghushan]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics.

It's not semantics. I shudder to think what your forms must be like if you don't even understand how Yang taiji body movement is different from karate. Not the FORM, the body movement.

Anyways, whatever. I won't waste any more time on this. If what you do works for you, then whatever. USSD has tons of students too. As does Temple Kung Fu. As does Oom Young Doe and all those chain schools.

[kungfujunky]

Geez...I post a link to a really good article on the history of CMA, and you guys are still arguing semantics.

do you have this book bent? if so is it worth the money because i am very close to paying up for it!

lmk either in pm or here