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Thread: Are there real Shaolin Monks?

  1. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I'm not a fan of scenario training either, especially drilling prearranged tactics for specific types of attacks. It's not an effective way to train. There are too many unknown variables in a fight. Any conditioned response may lead to freezing up or falling apart when the elements unexpectedly change or the opponent does something else.
    My question concerns

    "How can one mentally train for needing to rapidly recover from a surprise attack and the shock/pain/unreality? Can it be trained for without too much risk of injury?"

    That's not the same thing as training a prearranged tactic for a specific type of attack in terms of "what the other guy does" . It just sets up a scenario to try to recreate that mental state of going into tunnel vision to try to learn how to break it as fast as possible. The idea I presented ignores what the other guy does because when you're frozen you can't analyze anyway. You'll be too slow.

    It's specifically about how to handle freezing up. In that case, perhaps you do need a conditioned response, but a response to the very fact of being frozen.
    Last edited by rett; 10-25-2013 at 03:10 AM.

  2. #227
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I'm not a fan of scenario training either, especially drilling prearranged tactics for specific types of attacks. It's not an effective way to train. There are too many unknown variables in a fight. Any conditioned response may lead to freezing up or falling apart when the elements unexpectedly change or the opponent does something else.
    Well it's difficult to think of anything worse along these lines than forms training. And from what you've been saying, Shaolin forms training are better than sport san da for achieving this effect. Or am I putting words into your mouth? Given all of this, it's not actually clear to me precisely what you are promoting.

  3. #228
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    Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
    My question concerns

    "How can one mentally train for needing to rapidly recover from a surprise attack and the shock/pain/unreality? Can it be trained for without too much risk of injury?"

    That's not the same thing as training a prearranged tactic for a specific type of attack in terms of "what the other guy does" . It just sets up a scenario to try to recreate that mental state of going into tunnel vision to try to learn how to break it as fast as possible. The idea I presented ignores what the other guy does because when you're frozen you can't analyze anyway. You'll be too slow.

    It's specifically about how to handle freezing up. In that case, perhaps you do need a conditioned response, but a response to the very fact of being frozen.
    Yes there are ways of training this. First is to be aware of the effect. A strike to the face can, in some cases, be as much about a shock effect as a pain or concussion effect.

    The simplest tip is making sure that during training the pad holder is on the ball, and provides proper feedback - so you do your combo, and the pad holder slaps back, shows you were you are open, or tests your guard, in no uncertain terms. Most especially when you drop your hands and "re set".

    There's a whole list of things one can do to begin to build up physical toughness and getting used to being hit while still keeping focussed. It can be as obvious as just actually sparring, or broken down into controlled combo and response practice, swinging the punch bag into you, so that it hits you first and then you throw your combo, or even push hands with not-too-heavy slaps, to create shock without actual brain damage. There are literally hundreds of techniques. Most important, I think, is the will, and sense of need, to do this kind of training.

    In sdparring, you could have a group of people, one person is "on", and he has to choose at random to suddenly start sparring with one of the others - no one knows who it is. You could even have it so that at any point on your class, someone could just make a quick sparring attack on anyone, at any point.

    Still, I think that just basic sparring is the main exercise here.

  4. #229
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  5. #230
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    Devising needlessly convoluted training scenarios belies a lack of experience in both "sport" and "reality".

  6. #231
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    On a tertiary subject... it's difficult to know what people are really getting at when they use words. Top level krav maga expert, successor to Imrich Lichtenfeld, top Israeli defence force instructor... etc.... Sounds awesometastic.

    http://www.kungfumagazine.com/forum/index.php

    Oh.

    But someone, somewhere.. on this thread I should think... would say oh, those sport fighters, they should do more realistic stuff, like krav maga. Well, a kick to the nuts and the old one two ain't nothing special - and it's not at all clear that this guy wouldn't actually have been higher level had he spent some time at the muay thai gym.

    (Still, I hope that this - in the vid - isn't who it is supposed to be.)

  7. #232
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    Zumba is more effective on the street than Krav Maga.

  8. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Devising needlessly convoluted training scenarios belies a lack of experience in both "sport" and "reality".
    The one I presented for consideration actually extremely simple and unconvoluted It's not even a "scenario" as such, but is just a way to try to provoke an emotional reaction as part of training. How to recognize and handle a freeze.

    Anyhow the point is to try to elicit ideas on how to train the shock of the freeze in a low-injury kind of way.

    I've taken enough hits to the head. Would rather save brain cells from here on out.
    Last edited by rett; 10-25-2013 at 08:14 AM.

  9. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by wenshu View Post
    Zumba is more effective on the street than Krav Maga.
    I was watching a Zumba commercial in my gym today. Hot girls

  10. #235
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    Quote Originally Posted by Miqi View Post
    Well it's difficult to think of anything worse along these lines than forms training. And from what you've been saying, Shaolin forms training are better than sport san da for achieving this effect. Or am I putting words into your mouth? Given all of this, it's not actually clear to me precisely what you are promoting.
    Yes, you are. That has tended to be your habit throughout this thread in fact. Doing forms has its purpose but is not fight training (obviously) and I have never said so.

  11. #236
    Scenario training is part of all special forces, military and police, training.

    "Freezing up" is a characteristic of beginning, not advanced trainees.

  12. #237
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    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Yes, you are. That has tended to be your habit throughout this thread in fact. Doing forms has its purpose but is not fight training (obviously) and I have never said so.
    Well that's because your words are like describing a bat: when I say bird, you say mouse. When I say mouse, you say bird.

    So far you've said that within Shaolin forms there is the shen fa of fight training, and that monks know how to use the techniques in the forms for fistic purposes. Now you say that forms have little to do with fighting.

    So before I shoot the bat, tell me then: what are forms for?

  13. #238
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scott R. Brown View Post
    Scenario training is part of all special forces, military and police, training.
    That's actually an argument against it's effectiveness.

  14. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    That's because he's an amazing escape artist as well. He always has a way out. Why don't you look up some of his lies and denial? There are several cases. The guy will never part with that cash. It's silly to use him for your argument. It doesn't help you the way you think it does.
    I can't say that I have seen these lies and denials that you allege so I will check them out. But right now, I still find him more credible than this Chi Gong w/e hocus pocus.

  15. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by rett View Post
    I didn't imply anything about magic powers or fighting skills. In fact I wasn’t implying anything other than exactly what I said. I'll repeat it, and explain it slowly, since you seem hell-bent on ascribing views to people they never expressed.

    Rewind. You told someone to go to Randi to collect the reward, because they cited a study claiming mental manipulation of electric currents in the body by qigong practitioners.

    I said, that isn't anything Randi would pay out cash for. I meant it's not paranormal (nor is making a current flow any sort of superpower or fighting skill, except perhaps for an electric eel 80% of whose body is a chemical battery).

    Scientists have already developed sensors that can be deliberately controlled by thinking. These have potential uses for helping paralyzed people use computers. So controlling bioelectricity with the mind already exists and is recognized. It's science, it's natural, and it's nothing Randi pays for.

    At that point you did your straw man trick, claiming I was talking about super fighting powers or paranormal skills.

    The only superpowers I'm interested in are the ones I listed upthread: Using the superpower of compassion to overcome cruelty, courage to overpower fear, knowledge to overcome delusion, etc. Randi doesn't pay out for those either.

    And even if it should turn out that paranormal powers like telepathy actually do exist, I wouldn't consider them truly paranormal or supernatural. Anything that really exists is, to me, part of nature and subject to causality, even if we don't understand it. (And once again, please note: I didn't claim telepathy exists)

    Ok, sounds like qigong is a waste of time if someone wants to train martial arts to become a better fighter, in terms of knocking someone the F out...got it.

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