Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

[chris bougeard]

Yes, firsthand experience is always best. But I spend half my life in airports these days... so before I book another flight, or pull out my credit card to order Alan's DVDs, it would be good if he or Chris could take the time to answer the Qs from the previous page:

----

What are the Wing Chun concepts/principles or hidden skills that I am missing when I see students:

* Cover to take a punch on the gloves/hands (0.12) (0.23)
* Step forward with weight on the lead leg, and bend the head forward as they punch (0.18) (0.28) (0.38)
* Guard position with both hands/gloves held up by the side of the face (0.30)
* Body moves right with a step as punch targets to the left (0.38)

To me the above might fit with a boxer's training, but I genuinely don't see, or know, how this fits into Wing Chun. So I am asking.

Robert Chu, if I'm not mistaken, was exposed to Wing Chun from Yuen Kay San lineage, Yip Man lineage (Hawkins Cheung) and also Gulao Wing Chun. Which of these lineages employ these methods?

----

If CSL Wing Chun is Robert Chu's method, mixed with BJJ for groundwork and also some western boxing for stand up, that's okay (they can train however they like) - but why not just call it that? If that's not true, and CSL Wing Chun's stand up game includes the above mentioned methods and no western boxing, then maybe someone from those lineages (YKS, HC and Gulao) could step in and confirm it - and then maybe explain how the said methods fit into their system's general framework.

If I'm wrong, then hands-up from me, I'm wrong.

My teacher has answered your questions many times already, if you can't see or understand our method by now, short of hands on experience...

You never answered my question regarding where you live, I'm based in the Channel Islands. If you are in my locale I would be happy to explain hands on how our method works.

You seem trapped in this "if you don't do it my way it's wrong/not proper wing chun". This is evident from many of your comments, including your generous observation that "pak sau should always be done with a strike" when trying to find something wrong with my teachers clip. Are you kidding me? How long have you been training? Wing Chun is an art of self expression, are you telling me there is only ONE way it can be applied? Pak Sao means to clap/slap hand not slap hand but always make sure you accompany it with a strike.

I suppose you also think the concept of simultaneous attack and defence has to manifest itself under this dogma.

At the end of the day you might be happy to be straight jacketed by the constraints of your system. I trained in your system some time ago, trained chi Sao sections did lots of lat Sao etc. At the time I liked it but I could never go back to that method now.

[BPWT..]

My teacher has answered your questions many times already, if you can't see or understand our method by now, short of hands on experience...

As I just posted, Alan is saying that what they do follows, for example, Wing Chun structure, or fist positioning, etc. Can you see my questions above and explain it to me in more detail?

You never answered my question regarding where you live, I'm based in the Channel Islands. If you are in my locale I would be happy to explain hands on how our method works.

Thanks for the offer. If I am in your neck of the woods then yes, I would enjoy meeting. I am based in Budapest, Hungary, but I actually spend more time travelling with work than I do in the city. I travel in the CEE region, throughout Europe and sometimes further afield. As a result, I train with numerous people who have been connected to the LT system. Most of them no longer officially (if you've been in the WT system, you might understand the implication behind this ).

You seem trapped in this "if you don't do it my way it's wrong/not proper wing chun".

Not at all! Sean's VT from PB has differences to my system (some quite stark), but I don't see it as wrong - just different. At their core, both arts are clearly connected, despite the differences.

This is evident from many of your comments, including your generous observation that "pak sau should always be done with a strike" when trying to find something wrong with my teachers clip. Are you kidding me? How long have you been training? Wing Chun is an art of self expression, are you telling me there is only ONE way it can be applied? Pak Sao means to clap/slap hand not slap hand but always make sure you accompany it with a strike.

I'm not sure where to start on this - so probably it is best for me to not start on it. I'll just say that Alan explained that yes, he was showing a 'bad way' of bridging at that point of his clip. He was showing the problem. Part of the problem was the way the Pak Sau was used.

At the end of the day you might be happy to be straight jacketed by the constraints of your system.

All systems have some constraints - it is the nature of any system. This is why Alan's guys train BJJ, after all.

I trained in your system some time ago, trained chi Sao sections did lots of lat Sao etc. At the time I liked it but I could never go back to that method now.

You trained in the EWTO, or you learned from someone who had learned the Hong Kong Wing Tsun system? If the latter, I would love to hear more as it might be another HK LTWT person it would be good for me to meet.

[LFJ]

@BPWT

To answer your question simply, we (CSLWC & WSLVT) share the same or very similar basic concepts, but have different expressions in application. What I've seen from Alan explaining those things, e.g. elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc., are all ideas shared in WSLVT. I suspect you have a very different definition of these in LTWT.

[BPWT..]

@BPWT

To answer your question simply, we (CSLWC & WSLVT) share the same or very similar basic concepts, but have different expressions in application. What I've seen from Alan explaining those things, e.g. elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc., are all ideas shared in WSLVT. I suspect you have a very different definition of these in LTWT.

So can you explain those three bolded bits of text above from a WSLVT perspective?

[LFJ]

So can you explain those three bolded bits of text above from a WSLVT perspective?

No. As I just told you, while we share the same basic concepts we have different expressions in application, yet any good WSLVT practitioner who watches Alan's explanations should be able to know exactly what he's talking about and how it is expressed in our system. I suggest you get to know more about the basics of his system before commenting on and discussing it's application.

[BPWT..]

No.

Okay. (Edit: would you say, at least, that when you spar it also looks like the method seen in Alan's light sparring clip - specifically the things I mentioned in bold?)

Chris, can you help explain those points I highlighted?

[chris bougeard]

Okay.

Chris, can you help explain them?

I don't believe any further explanation is necessary. Clips explaining the rationale behind the reeling punch and the way we see bridging have been supplied. My teacher has explained the logic behind how our wing chun works. The offer for hands on explanation has been made and you have been invited to post a clip of your method in application to show us how we should be using/expressing the art under pressure, which you declined to do. You seem to have a problem with our expression of the art because it doesn't fit your paradigm and no amount of forum tennis is going to change that.

[LFJ]

Okay. (Edit: would you say, at least, that when you spar it also looks like the method seen in Alan's light sparring clip - specifically the things I mentioned in bold?)

How many times do you want me to say we have different expressions in the application of our systems?

[KPM]

@BPWT

To answer your question simply, we (CSLWC & WSLVT) share the same or very similar basic concepts, but have different expressions in application. What I've seen from Alan explaining those things, e.g. elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc., are all ideas shared in WSLVT. I suspect you have a very different definition of these in LTWT.

Oh I agree! What I've seen from Alan explaining things like elbow, fist position, weight control, body structure, etc. makes perfect sense and are all ideas that I share as well. In fact, I would be willing to bet that what I have trained has more in common with CSL WCK than your WSLVT has with CSL WCK. And my comment in my previous post was due to the fact that I have already stated on this thread that I have all of Alan's DVDs, have watched them several times and have learned from them. In fact, I remember one of the DVDs explaining how the more upright Wing Chun stance is superior to a boxer's stance. Yet in both clips posted we don't see that upright Wing Chun stance. We see an angled forward, chin tucked, hands by the face boxing stance. We've just been asking "why is that?"