Bruce Lee vs. Wong Jack Man fight

[MysticNinjaJay]

Regarding how the actual fight went down I'm not sure who to believe. Just based on the description I find Bruce Lee's account to be more credible. Linda Lee said the fight lasted 3 minutes. Wong Jack Man fled as he was being pressured. Bruce Lee pounced on him and beat him along his back and the back of his head (which bruised his hands according to Bruce Lee) and then got him to verbally submit by asking if he gave up. Wong Jack Man conceded defeat. According to Jesse Glover Bruce Lee felt the fight was sloppy and he was very winded from chasing the quick and nimble Wong Jack Man.

Compare that to the account given by Rick Wing in his book which is supported by the testimonies of Wong Jack Man and his entourage who witnessed the fight. They say the fight lasted 20-25 minutes. Bruce Lee struck the first blow by delivering a finger jab to the eye when they were about to touch hands (a cheap shot). Wong Jack Man dodged and parried a very aggressive Bruce Lee throughout the fight. He refused to use kicks because he felt they were too deadly. On a few occasions Wong Jack Man got Bruce Lee in a headlock but did not take advantage of the position. At one point Wong Jack Man landed what was described as the best attack of the fight, a hand strike to the neck which staggered Bruce Lee. No one had a clear advantage and both fighters grazed each other but the fight ended when Wong Jack Man slipped on a raised portion of the floor and Bruce Lee tried to pounce on him. Wong Jack Man's entourage then interfered and called a stop to the fight, declaring it a draw. Bruce Lee yelled at Wong Jack Man demanding he admit defeat but he never yielded.

Now the reason I find Bruce Lee's account more credible is the length of the fight. 3 minutes is short enough to be consistent with what one might expect from a Martial Arts challenge match with no rules but long enough for a fighter to get exhausted especially if they are sprinting across the room throwing strikes as Jesse Glove described. Bruce Lee's description of bruising his hands with ground and pound tactics is what one might expect if you used Wing Chun chain punches to hit someone repeatedly in their head and back. The back of the skull can especially hurt your hands if you hit it too hard. Based on this testimony I find the account believable that Bruce Lee felt his technique was inefficient and his conditioning sub par which inspired him to improve his skills and his stamina.

Now Wong Jack Man's account has several problems. First of all the length. 20-25 minutes is way too long for the type of fight that was described. We are talking about a Martial Arts challenge match with no rules, no equipment and no water breaks and it lasted around 20 minutes?! Then there is the description of the fight itself. The fought for that long and merely grazed each other. You would have to be seriously incompetent to fight for 20-25 minutes and do virtually nothing offensively. Street fights are usually over in a matter of seconds. The challenge matches I have seen that go any longer than 5 minutes turn in to blood baths even if the fighters aren't that skilled. These fighters would have to be incredible masters of defense to evade each others moves for that long without doing major damage. I also read in the book that the fighters had different ideas about what type of fight this was. Wong Jack Man thought of it as a friendly sparring match. Bruce Lee thought of it as a serious fight and aimed to really hurt his opponent. So the level of aggression they displayed was different. If that is the case that makes Wong Jack Man's account sound even less credible. You have to also consider some of the statements Wong Jack Man made about the fight. He said he avoided using kicks because he thought they were too deadly. That is unrealistic. He must not have much fighting experience to think that. He also estimated the number of strikes Bruce Lee threw (about 60 punches and 25 kicks in addition to eye pokes and groin strikes). Curiously Wong Jack Man did not tell the newspapers how many punches or kicks he attempted only to say he evaded Lee and counter attacked. The comment about slipping on the floor and Bruce Lee trying to pounce on him is interesting because the fight ending on the floor with Bruce Lee in position to pound is similar to Lee's own account. Jesse Glover also mentioned interference from the entourage but says an associate of Bruce Lee's put a stop to their interference with the fight.

Considering the difference in accounts someone is clearly lying. In Rick Wing's book he gives an account of what was said in the newspapers which was really bizarre (ex. the fight being over a girl, Bruce Lee claiming he beat Wong Jack man so badly he couldn't show up for work for three days etc.). Jesse Glover's account is even more bizarre as he says Bruce Lee read in the Chinese newspapers that Wong Jack Man won the fight (consistent with what Wing says although with less detail). Bruce Lee confronted the editor angrily demanding a retraction and a source for the claim which turned out to be Wong Jack Man himself. Glover says Bruce Lee then went to the restaurant where Wong Jack Man worked as a waiter. When Wong Jack Man saw Bruce Lee apparently he spilled tea on the table, ran away and hid in the kitchen. Rick Wing does say that Bruce Lee came to the restaurant but only to make peace with Wong Jack Man. Apparently they shared a Martial Arts lineage as their teachers trained under the same Grandmaster. Bruce Lee pointed this out and said he bore him no ill will he was just trying to promote his school.

The stories about this fight that I have read are so contradictory and strange that it makes me wonder what really happened. Bruce Lee's account sounds more believable to me but Wong Jack Man has more witnesses and Rick Wing actually produced copies of the newspapers for anyone who knows Chinese to read and translated them in to English for his book. I don't think it is odd that Bruce Lee dedicated himself to improving his Martial Arts skills because he thought the fight wasn't good but I do find it interesting that Wong Jack Man issued a challenge for a rematch that would be viewed in public and Bruce Lee never responded. The hotheaded, proud and arrogant Bruce Lee not responding to a challenge seems out of character. So what really happened? Who knows but given its legendary status and influence on Bruce Lee becoming the movie star sensation that he was which helped popularize Martial Arts I do think the fight deserves to have a movie made about it.

[boxerbilly]

Well the other pics sort of look like him but its hard to tell. The last one being the most easily to try and distinguish if it is him. On the left. Right kid in pic. The big pic often people say that's not Bruce Lee. Cleary the faced guy is not but the guy with the back to us. The head looks similar. Some may say skinny arms. Well Bruce Lee was one seriously skinny dude. So yeah, that arm is going to look that thin with a 12-13 inch arm and this was HS so he may have been sporting 11's .

But unless someone can verify yes that's him I was there or I took those shots. Along those lines.

Also, I read he possibly had 3 fights prior to the Elm fight which qualified him to fight Elm.

[Jimbo]

I do agree that 3 minutes is a much more credible time for the fight than 20-25 minutes. Maybe it just FELT like 20-25 minutes?

As far as Bruce seeming out of character for not accepting a second challenge by WJM, I don't know about that. During the incident at the Sun Sing theater, when Kenneth Wong of Hung Sing CLF, a known tough guy, embarrassed BL when he cleanly blocked all 3 of BL's strikes during the latter's 'speed demo' then put his fists up to fight; BL backed off, smiling, and merely said to the boisterous crowd, "You know where my school is" and left.

During another incident, karate champ Joe Lewis had a falling out with BL for some reason or other and went to his house to confront him. According to Lewis, BL was home but instead of coming to the door to face Lewis, BL sent his wife Linda to convey his message to Lewis.

So while BL was young, c0cky and could be a hothead, I think it's clear that he was smart enough to assess a situation and its potential to go bad for him.

That said, BL was not a "MA fraud" as a certain MMA fighter who I won't name, labeled him. BL may have never competed in any American karate tournaments of the day, but at least one well-known top-class karate fighter from New York, Louis Delgado, sparred privately with BL and came away very impressed, claiming he never sparred anyone like BL. Delgado had fought numerous too karate fighters of the era, including Chuck Norris, and claimed that only BL left him totally baffled. Reportedly, his karate gi was also torn up while sparring with BL.

[boxerbilly]

22 minutes of smack talk and disagreement. 3 minutes of whatever happened ?

Bruce Lee was held in pretty high regard by many of the people actually fighting. And a few champs. Lewis would have walked early on if he thought Bruce Lee was a joke. He had zero patience and respect for people he felt could not fight. He may have chilled out some in later years.

[boxerbilly]

Now the thing with Joe is it must depend on the day you talk to him because he sometimes is extremely nice and speaks highly of Bruce and other times he makes back handed comments. WHY ? Id guess because you came to talk to Joe Lewis but you want to always know about Bruce Lee, LOL.

Anyway, do any of you really think they never sparred ? Again, Joe was known to walk out on guy that would not prove themselves to him and that meant one way to Joe.

Edit. So some may take stood in front of me as that does not mean sparring. But Lewis used the same descriptive to describe the others. Congruence in his statements same interview. In other interviews he said they never sparred. Never really fought is probably the correct conclusion.

Same for Norris and Stone. You really think Lee never sparred those guys ? Norris turns everything about Lee into him.

"For his size and weight, Bruce was one of the strongest people - pound for pound - I have ever met. I think he could have beaten a lot of people much heavier and much stronger than he was. He would have done extremely well in competition; if anything, he would have been much too fast for a lot of the officials." --Mike Stone.

I guess Mike came to that conclusion from watching Enter the Dragon ? Because he to went to Bruce for his kickshield holding abilities.

[boxerbilly]

Case in point.

[Jimbo]

During a tournament, I was among a very small group of people who took Master Ming Lum out to lunch. He had been friends with both BL and WJM. He was originally supposed to be a witness at the fight but chose not to go at the last minute. The next day, he saw WJM at work at the restaurant, and he only had a nick over his eye where BL had supposedly tried to finger jab him. Otherwise he was fine. If he'd been beaten as badly as BL claimed, he said that WJM wouldn't have been able to work the next day.

However, when someone in our group asked Ming Lum, out of all the MAists he met in his lifetime, who he felt left the biggest impression on him, he said it was BL. So it's clear that Ming Lum was not taking sides either way.

[boxerbilly]

During a tournament, I was among a very small group of people who took Master Ming Lum out to lunch. He had been friends with both BL and WJM. He was originally supposed to be a witness at the fight but chose not to go at the last minute. The next day, he saw WJM at work at the restaurant, and he only had a nick over his eye where BL had supposedly tried to finger jab him. Otherwise he was fine. If he'd been beaten as badly as BL claimed, he said that WJM wouldn't have been able to work the next day.

However, when someone in our group asked Ming Lum, out of all the MAists he met in his lifetime, who he felt left the biggest impression on him, he said it was BL. So it's clear that Ming Lum was not taking sides either way.

Ive read that someplace else Jimbo. That WKM was essentially unharmed. I believe it. Bruce possibly hurt his hands if he did hit the back of WJM head at some point during the scrap. In the end both guys looked the fool and in reply to one of your last posts, yes I too believe they both were easily manipulated into a fight abut face/ego/pride.

The best I can really conclude is they were close to one another equals. Each cancelling out the other for the most part. How rare is that ? Ive beat guys that beat guys that beat me ! Never met a equal.

[Jimbo]

The best I can really conclude is they were close to one another equals. Each cancelling out the other for the most part. How rare is that ? Ive beat guys that beat guys that beat me ! Never met a equal.

I've found it often happens that:

Fighter A beats fighter B.

Fighter B then beats fighter C.

Then, fighter C turns around and beats fighter A, but loses again to B in a rematch.

Finally, Fighters A and B fight again, and A wins again, too.

Individual fighters' styles (not MA styles) make fights.

I respect Joe Lewis a lot for his knowledge and experience. IMO he was a great fighter, one of the greatest. But IMO, the only kung fu he was exposed to was probably a few forms people at open tournaments, or in movies. There are CMA groups with people who can actually fight, and fight well. A lot of non-CMAists such as karate people and others expound a lot on the weaknesses of kung fu, but have had little to no exposure to more function-oriented CMAists. Sure, there's lots of bad 'kung fu' (lots of it!), but there have been CMAists who fight, too.

And although BL may have been able to gain prestige by boasting of teaching champion fighters, after he became BIG, things kind of reversed; now being able to say that they had trained with BL gave prestige to the fighters.

[boxerbilly]

And some of the best are CLF guys across the board.

To bad the Kung Fu guys would not compete in those things back then. Ive read rules were a main issue. Had to pull and snap. So there goes a f##k ton of circular shots. You might get disqualified for lack of control. Of course many of those events were all about lack of control. Lewis used to rip the sleeves of guys pulling them into shots. Jay T. Will ran dudes over. Still, a hook punch is going to be real hard to stop at full speed and the distance factor those things were fought at excludes it so much. As Ed Parker once called it. Joisting.

[Jimbo]

And some of the best are CLF guys across the board.

To bad the Kung Fu guys would not compete in those things back then. Ive read rules were a main issue. Had to pull and snap. So there goes a f##k ton of circular shots. You might get disqualified for lack of control. Of course many of those events were all about lack of control. Lewis used to rip the sleeves of guys pulling them into shots. Jay T. Will ran dudes over. Still, a hook punch is going to be real hard to stop at full speed and the distance factor those things were fought at excludes it so much. As Ed Parker once called it. Joisting.

My CLF Sifu once showed some old 8mm (or super 8?) film from around 1970 where he and his students were sparring in various tournaments, I believe including Ed Parker's Long Beach Internationals. Some of his students were literally running over guys. I remember at least some of them had to wear karate gi in order to compete in sparring. I'm sure there were DQ's.

Two of his students also accepted an early '70s challenge to the L.A. MAists from a visiting team of Muay Thai fighters from Thailand. One of the students, a heavyweight, gassed out and couldn't come out for the next round, but the other, a small Filipino guy, K.O.'d his opponent using a Pau Jong (uppercut).

My sifu's old L.A. school was one of the many MA schools in the L.A. area that the Urquidez brothers briefly trained at to pick up as much as they could from as many styles as possible.

[boxerbilly]

Yeah, I think they ( CLF )were the only guys to consistently go to Thailand and fight and win a good percentage of the time under Thai rules.

And perhaps the Parker disquals got around the KF said, screw it. We wont be allowed to win ? Really just a matter of altering you stuff to fit the rules. That simple. Some people refuse to. Then don't compete at the largest events of the day I guess ?

Also, Ive read David Chin stated he believed the fight went both ways. For the most part I think he was being the most honest of all the account. Or perhaps the least biased . I recall as a boy thinking he was full of ****e. Of course I was like everyone else. Bruce Lee I want to be that guy. And I actually told my brother that when I was 3-4 and saw the ETD trailer on tv after midnight. That stuff was not aired until after certain times to avoid impressionables ( kids) getting the wrong message. Maybe I would have been better off sleeping that night ?

[Jimbo]

The first I ever saw of BL was as Kato in The Green Hornet during its original run, back when I was 3 or 4. But it didn't leave an impression on me. I just thought Green Hornet was a less-fun version of Batman, and for some reason I had a kid-crush on Batgirl.

The first I saw of BL the kung fu star was a late-night commercial for Return of the Dragon (Way of the Dragon). I already knew about BL from the kids at school raving about him, and I'd heard about Enter the Dragon about a year earlier. I would have been about 11, since Return/Way of the Dragon was officially released in the U.S. in 1974, two years after it was originally released overseas. I just remember seeing BL beat up one of the gangsters, then fighting Chuck Norris. Again, it didn't leave an impression. I didn't actually watch a BL movie until I was 16, when they were re-released in theaters. Then I was impressed. To this day, Way of the Dragon is my favorite BL movie.

I used to believe everything written about BL that described him as superhuman. I still believe that he had a very rare genetic natural talent and intelligence for MA. But he was just a man. The first doubts I began to have about the BL-WJM fight going exactly as described by the BL camp was in 1980, when I read an article in one of the mags (Official Karate??) about the fight as seen by people outside of the BL camp. I think it quoted Ming Lum as well.

Most people don't consider that both BL and WJM were very young men at the time; early 20s. A high percentage of guys that age are still basically "kids" who think they know everything and are invincible. And that also includes engaging in stupid behavior and not being totally honest at times to skew the facts in one's own favor.

[boxerbilly]

I remember when I was invincible. Then I got killed. Really.

[-N-]

To bad the Kung Fu guys would not compete in those things back then. Ive read rules were a main issue. Had to pull and snap. So there goes a f##k ton of circular shots. You might get disqualified for lack of control.

My CLF Sifu once showed some old 8mm (or super 8?) film from around 1970 where he and his students were sparring in various tournaments, I believe including Ed Parker's Long Beach Internationals. Some of his students were literally running over guys. I remember at least some of them had to wear karate gi in order to compete in sparring. I'm sure there were DQ's.

That's what happened to my Sihing in the 70's tournaments. Disqualified for excessive contact. Overrun and take out the other guy with hard combos.

I recall one story about a White Crane teacher slapping his own student across the face in front of the entire audience after a match because he thought the student was holding back too much.

One of my students asked me to take him to open mat sparring. He was 14 at the time and weighed less than 130 pounds. 200 pound mma guys, boxers, and blackbelts were asking him to go easier during sparring. In between matches, he actually had to ask me how to do that.