Why is there not a single WC fighter, anywhere!!!!!!!!!

[SavvySavage]

MMA by definition requires ground skills for submission options.
VT would require bjj etc...sprawling....its an arena for grapplers who can strike, kick. Gracie's set it up to highlight bjj as the grind game. The first fights had 20 minute guard stalemetes.

Exactly. My point was that traditional WC sensitivity drills wouldn't suffIce to prepare someone for mma. I get it that some people are really connected to their traditional training and teachers. Machida practices karate with his father every morning I hear...but probably spends most of his time wrestling, conditioning, sparring. To call him a karate fighter is a big misleading. He mainly strikes like a kickboxer with the only difference bring that he darts in and out to not take damage. I think the UFC just hams up the karate thing to give him a different feel than a kickboxer and to get more fans from traditional backgrounds.

If a guy mainly trains mma, while spending some time flavoring his training WC, karate, etc, should he really be called a karate fighter or a WC fighter? No, in my opinion.

[YouKnowWho]

I just want to ask a simple question.

It's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill. Because that grappler knows that he has to pass the striking range before he can get into the clinching range, and he knows that the striking skill is a must. When he trains the new striking skill, he will not feel that he is disloyal to his original grappling style.

Why doesn't a striker share the same kind of attitude? What's wrong for a striker to learn some grappling skill?

[Phil Redmond]

. . . . What's wrong for a striker to learn some grappling skill?

Nothing, I'm trying to learn all the grappling I can.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I just want to ask a simple question.

It's very nature for a grappler to learn some striking skill. Because that grappler knows that he has to pass the striking range before he can get into the clinching range, and he knows that the striking skill is a must. When he trains the new striking skill, he will not feel that he is disloyal to his original grappling style.

Why doesn't a striker share the same kind of attitude? What's wrong for a striker to learn some grappling skill?

Some strikers believe that they can end it with strikes before it gets to grappling, no matter how many times it is shown to NOT be the case.

[YouKnowWho]

Some strikers believe that they can end it with strikes before it gets to grappling, no matter how many times it is shown to NOT be the case.

This turn into an old Chinese "Spear and Sheld" contridiction. If a

- grappler believes that he can take down anybody who lives on this planet.
- striker also believes that he can knock down anyboy who lives on earth.

What will happen when that great grappler and great striker finally meet?

IMO, there is no shame for Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson to learn some grappling skill. Nobody will say that they are dis-graceful to the boxing community. They may even be able to learn "single leg" and "double legs" within 2 hours. How hard can that be?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This turn into an old Chinese "Spear and Sheld" contridiction. If a

- grappler believes that he can take down anybody who lives on this planet.
- striker also believes that he can knock down anyboy who lives on earth.

What will happen when that great grappler and great striker finally meet?

IMO, there is no shame for Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson to learn some grappling skill. Nobody will say that they are dis-graceful to the boxing community. They may even be able to learn "single leg" and "double legs" within 2 hours. How hard can that be?

Old dogs, new tricks, you know how it works.
Also, the vast majority that think they're "too deadly" strikes can stop anyone are the ones that can't strike their way out of a paper bag.
Even Elite strikers know that is not the case.

[YouKnowWho]

strikes can stop anyone ...

In my personal experience, it's much easier to take someone down than to knock someone down. When your opponent is on the ground, you can still kill him by your powerful punch since he is not going anywhere.

[sanjuro_ronin]

In my personal experience, it's much easier to take someone down than to knock someone down. When your opponent is on the ground, you can still kill him by your powerful punch since he is not going anywhere.

Absolutely.
Now, it has been MY PERSONAL experience that, on the "street", it is far easier to KO someone than compared to the ring, for obvious reasons and it MAY BE that for some, with limited time VS trained fighters and more time VS "mediocre" opponents, that their experience tells them that "have the goods" and they MAY feel "just fine".

[YouKnowWho]

Absolutely.
Now, it has been MY PERSONAL experience that, on the "street", it is far easier to KO someone than compared to the ring, for obvious reasons and it MAY BE that for some, with limited time VS trained fighters and more time VS "mediocre" opponents, that their experience tells them that "have the goods" and they MAY feel "just fine".

In street fight, peole may run toward you and try to knock your head off. It may cause a perfect "head on collusion" that your opponent just run into your punch. Once I sparred a boxer who weight 230 lb. He charged in so hard that he ran into my kick and broke his own ribs. The most funny thing that happened in my life was a wrestler gave me a "bear hug" so hard that he squeezed mybody into his chest and broke his own ribs (I swear to God that both are true stories). Things like this will never happen in the ring as far as I remember.

[Frost]

Alan Orr doesn't just do WC so I'm not sure if he's a good example of a WC fighter. He does mma because to compete in mma you have to mostly train mma. Luk Sao...not so much.

A WC fighter, to prove WC purely works in mma, should just be training WC right?

umm where did i post it had to be pure wing chun guy, i said why cant we see a wing chun trained guy showing the wing chun principles people are talking about in non wing chun guys

training wrestling and BJJ shouldnt alter his striking principles that much should it?

and forgive me if im wrong but alans guys and phillips guys are not from the same lineage as most people who are posting these claimes,

[Frost]

MMA by definition requires ground skills for submission options.
VT would require bjj etc...sprawling....its an arena for grapplers who can strike, kick. Gracie's set it up to highlight bjj as the grind game. The first fights had 20 minute guard stalemetes.

nope mma requires a striker to know how to stay on his feet, and even adding wrestling and bjj shouldnt change his stand up game eyond all recognition should it...it doesnt for thai guys


of course the gracies set up the ufc for themselves, they wanted the fights to start standing in a big a$$ cage, with all strikes apart from eye pokes and fish hooks allowed and a nice padded mat for there opponents to fall on

and the early ufcs were straight up wins for royce in a matter of minutes until he came up against other grapplers
first round
ufc 2
Royce Gracie vs. Minoki Ichihara
Gracie wins by Submission (Collar Choke), which was mistakenly called an armbar at 5:08.
quarters
Royce Gracie vs. Jason DeLucia
Gracie wins by Submission (Armlock) at 1:07.
semi
Royce Gracie vs. Remco Pardoel
Gracie wins by Submission (Lapel Choke) at 1:31.

final
Royce Gracie vs. Patrick Smith
Gracie wins by Submission (Strikes) at 1:17 to win UFC 2.

4 fights in under 9 minutes

UFC1
3 Royce Gracie vs. Art Jimmerson Gracie wins by submission (position) 2:18.
Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock Gracie wins by submission (gi choke) 0:57
Royce Gracie vs. Gerard Gordeau Gracie wins by submission (rear naked choke) 1:44

3 fights under 6 minutes...but dont facts come in the way of your beliefs

[jesper]

btw just rediscovred this old clip.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naAa8...eature=related

and here we have some russians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UeSt...eature=related

[k gledhill]

nope mma requires a striker to know how to stay on his feet, and even adding wrestling and bjj shouldnt change his stand up game eyond all recognition should it...it doesnt for thai guys


of course the gracies set up the ufc for themselves, they wanted the fights to start standing in a big a$$ cage, with all strikes apart from eye pokes and fish hooks allowed and a nice padded mat for there opponents to fall on

and the early ufcs were straight up wins for royce in a matter of minutes until he came up against other grapplers
first round
ufc 2
Royce Gracie vs. Minoki Ichihara
Gracie wins by Submission (Collar Choke), which was mistakenly called an armbar at 5:08.
quarters
Royce Gracie vs. Jason DeLucia
Gracie wins by Submission (Armlock) at 1:07.
semi
Royce Gracie vs. Remco Pardoel
Gracie wins by Submission (Lapel Choke) at 1:31.

final
Royce Gracie vs. Patrick Smith
Gracie wins by Submission (Strikes) at 1:17 to win UFC 2.

4 fights in under 9 minutes

UFC1
3 Royce Gracie vs. Art Jimmerson Gracie wins by submission (position) 2:18.
Royce Gracie vs. Ken Shamrock Gracie wins by submission (gi choke) 0:57
Royce Gracie vs. Gerard Gordeau Gracie wins by submission (rear naked choke) 1:44

3 fights under 6 minutes...but dont facts come in the way of your beliefs

The UFC was originally started by Art Davie, an advertising executive, and Rorion Gracie, a noted master of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. The goal was to stage a tournament featuring fighters of all disciplines in order to determine who was truly the best. Oh look there's Royce lets ask him if hes interested....

As for strikers staying on feet , I said options for UFC [ BJJ ] not prime directive.

As for the 'list' , you need to drink less coffee people know what I mean when I say 20 minutes in a guard.

[anerlich]

IMO, there is no shame for Muhammad Ali or Mike Tyson to learn some grappling skill. Nobody will say that they are dis-graceful to the boxing community. They may even be able to learn "single leg" and "double legs" within 2 hours. How hard can that be?

You might be able to develop a low single that will work against non-grapplers in 2 hours. It takes most people a LOT longer to learn a decent double leg.

You might as well say a grappler could learn to fight effectively with Wing Chun in a couple of lessons.

[anerlich]

Alan Orr doesn't just do WC so I'm not sure if he's a good example of a WC fighter. He does mma because to compete in mma you have to mostly train mma. Luk Sao...not so much.

He claims to do mostly WC, with modifications and additions essential to operate in MMA. If you look at his videos he explains the base (CSLWC) of what he does very well.