The Key to Internal is...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

It always cracks me up how every so often some "internal" guy will come on here and tell us all how know one knows internal, how there is a difference between internal and external, how grappling, which is the closest thing in the sense of internal there is, is not internal, and best yet, how none of us know "real" internal and have never been properly taught it's methods yet will provide no evidence of themselves or anyone else demonstrating it.

Sound like someone else we know on this forum.

[sanjuro_ronin]

What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.

Amen John.
Funny thing is that all the IMA guys I know that actually FIGHT, don't ever spew this "internal nonsense".

[ShaolinDan]

By hip throwing someone who was already going that way, no one could say you did a hip throw at all. Externally, you had the appearance of a hip throw, but internally you were just slagging off, and that's what did the hip throw, "I'd catch you, but no."

I think a lot of throws are just getting out of the way. This is knowing how to get out of the way, reading what the way is, etc. Internal processes as the key to managing the external processes, like judo does, or bjj on the ground, or tkd in selecting a mall location. All the good styles are internal, because they do not see their applications as enforced upon reality, but in response to a reality that you train yourself to see and respond to, the sight and the response learned makes someone able to use the technique, the technique does not do the same.

That said, if the structures adopted lead naturally, and you don't fight this tendency when pressure is applied, but use it naturally, then it's neither your internal motion or your external that defines that exchange, but the opponent's decisions and their efficiency or inefficiency in applying it, if you are drawing them into something, it is them who acts externally.

Either way, what comes to be is not defined by your external structure, your internal processes, or your opponent's, but the combination. If you are part of that, instead of being part of your technique, then even as you do a technique, you are internal to the fight, while the technique is external.

There is no separation between internal and external. Functional fighting kung fu all looks suspiciously "internal", while dancing and empty form all looks "external".

Kung fu that looks fancy in form looks normal in usage.

A 700 lbs. female jockey could kill a featherweight ufc fighter.

I like a lot of what's in this post.

When we change our perspective, the whole world/universe seems to shift, but no one sees it except ourselves.

'Internal' is a lens you can put on to focus in on certain aspects of your training...just like when we focus on speed, or on power, or on ... in the end it all gets put back together seamlessly, we just take it apart to work on certain aspects. there's no such thing as pure internal or pure external, it's just about where the emphasis is being placed.

[Scott R. Brown]

I truly don't see that "internal" can help me any more than "external". Again, I'm speaking from my personal experience since I learned Taiji when I was 7 years old. That was almost 60 years ago.

It is unfortunate that with 60 years training in internal and external styles and having learned these in China, where they all originated, you still haven't met anyone with the real internal like Robinhood with all of his 4 years of training!

[dirtyrat]

It is unfortunate that with 60 years training in internal and external styles and having learned these in China, where they all originated, you still haven't met anyone with the real internal like Robinhood with all of his 4 years of training!

dude! rub it in, why don't 'cha?!?

[Scott R. Brown]

Taijiquan guy pushing hands with retired Sumo champion. The thing that I think is impressive is that the Taijiquan guy is giving away more weight than he himself weighs! I find this impressive if for no other reason than that.

I don't mean to imply the vid wasn't entertaining, but Akebono threw himself! All the Tai Chi guy did was draw Akebono in until he over extended his center and then move out of the way.

It is no different than an old box trap. The stick holds the box up, when you pull the stick out of the way, the box falls down. You get the guy to lean on you, then you move out of the way, and he fall down go boom!

Technically that was not a throw, but it is a good efficient use of psychology and tactics!

[Scott R. Brown]

dude! rub it in, why don't 'cha?!?

With 60's years training under his belt, he can take it!

[Mike Patterson]

What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.

All due respect... What's to discuss? A hip throw is a hip throw.

But once again I must differ with you (which is more rare than not) since "hip strike" is part of the "seven stars" body method of hsingi (xingyi) as it was taught to me. And we use both methods as you describe above as "traditional" and "modern" for that throw. The first found more often in hsingi (xingyi), the second more in the pakua (bagua) or taichi (taiji) that I practice.

Unless of course I am misunderstanding your words, which is always possible. Many things really must be compared in person to be understood in terms of "difference" or "same".

As for the vid of Akebono and the Taiji fellow..

All are quite correct, nothing mystical there. Simple leverage and conversion once the taiji fellow got Akebono (sp?) to lean on him with his great mass. And if you look closely, you'll see his spine begin to lose it's brace just before he empties his right side to let Akebono topple over. So, the taiji fellow almost failed and quickly recovered. In the second link up, he does a much better job of bracing/grounding... probably more prepared as a result of the first go around.

Scott's "box and stick" analogy is a good one for this method. Just my two cents.

[YouKnowWho]

What's to discuss? A hip throw is a hip throw.

That's exactly my point, "A hip throw is a hip throw". If we expand this a bit futher, "A throw is a throw." There is no "internal" throws or "external" throws.

I have seen IMA guys learned hip throw. After many years of training, when they apply that hip throw on the mat against their opponents, their hip throws were no different from those who had no "internal" MA training.

[Robinhood]

It is unfortunate that with 60 years training in internal and external styles and having learned these in China, where they all originated, you still haven't met anyone with the real internal like Robinhood with all of his 4 years of training!

Boy, I am away for awhile and you guys are making things up already.

Where did you get 4 years of experience from?, if you need to make up lies because you can not defend your position with words, that does not say much of your character.

If you think your learning Tai-Chi sets at seven years old means something, that is your experience with internal, no wonder.

Lets stick to the discussion not try to act like politicians.

[Eric Olson]

Wow, I forgot I even started this thread. Um, again, it all comes back to this....standing. If you practice, standing posture for 20 minutes a day for the next year, then come back and tell us that the way you move hasn't changed.

Internal simply means efficient, unencumbered movement. Standing meditation causes you to become more aware of your body and therefore the "kinks in the the hose" so to speak. If you are more aware of your own body and it's not getting in your own way, you are better able to feel your opponents movements...no secret.

To answer John Wang's question about hip throws. If you are in a position where you can be thrown, you're already off balance. You can't throw someone who doesn't already have some forward momentum or who is dead weight (ie totally limp). So what is an "internal" hip throw? I don't think it exists, just as internal weight lifting doesn't exist.

EO

[Robinhood]

What bother me the most is "internal" guys refuse to discuss certain combat areas such as "hip throw".

The

- traditional way of doing "hip throw" is to use your hip to strike on your opponent's belly.
- modern way of doing "hip throw" is to use your arm to lift up your opponent's waist.

You then make his feet to come off the ground, and pull him over your head.

I just don't see "internal" can help to improve this function in either cases. Besides, the IMA guys don't even train "hip strike" and "waist lift" at all.

I don't know why you are always talking about movements and techniques, INTERNAL comes before the movement.

With your vast array of books you copy from, what does it say about JIN ?

If you can manifest JIN then you are doing internal, then you do your movement, be it hip throw or what ever, but they must be linked.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I don't know why you are always talking about movements and techniques, INTERNAL comes before the movement.

With your vast array of books you copy from, what does it say about JING ?

If you can manifest JING then you are doing internal, then you do your movement, be it hip throw or what ever, but they must be linked.

IF you knew who you were talking to, you'd show A LOT more respect.
Something tells me that John has been doing TCMA longer than you have been alive.
Way longer.
One of his teachers was a "living treasure" of China.
You should listen to the man.

[Robinhood]

Amen John.
Funny thing is that all the IMA guys I know that actually FIGHT, don't ever spew this "internal nonsense".

Maybe the people you think are IMA guys, are not.

If they have put there time in standing, then they might be IMA guys, otherwise they are just external guys that think they are internal because they do forms that are supposed to be internal, big difference.

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Maybe the people you think are IMA guys, are not.

If they have put there time in standing, then they might be IMA guys, otherwise they are just external guys that think they are internal because they do forms that are supposed to be internal, big difference.

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

Classic.
How does that old taiji saying go?
Standing chi is better than sitting chi, moving chi is better than standing chi.
Or something to that effect...