The Key to Internal is...

[Robinhood]

IF you knew who you were talking to, you'd show A LOT more respect.
Something tells me that John has been doing TCMA longer than you have been alive.
Way longer.
One of his teachers was a "living treasure" of China.
You should listen to the man.

We are just talking MA stuff, I have no doubt John likes to mix it up and is good at it, but we are talking about application of internal principles not who can beat each other up.

I am not inventing some new system of application, we are talking about the principles of internal application as described in books like " The Tai-Chi Classics", I think John is familiar with these and has opinions as to there effectiveness and application.

[Robinhood]

Classic.
How does that old taiji saying go?
Standing chi is better than sitting chi, moving chi is better than standing chi.
Or something to that effect...

I think the saying is about movement, small is better than big move and no movement is better than small movement.

[taai gihk yahn]

If Chi does not excist, why do Chinese have acupuncture?

because "qi" is a metaphor; it's not a distinct entity in the way light, heat, electricity, gravity, etc. are; however, these various phenommena are all aspects / manifestations of "qi" - "qi" is a means of getting a handle on the complex interactions of the various body systems; when u don't have the ability technoogically to say what is going on specificaly, when u hav no notion of the cell, blood chemistry, etc., u come up with a methodology that is based on macro-observation: pulse / tongue dx, palpation of other things, pt. history, appearance of the eyes, skin, etc. - then u take all of those and contextualize them metaphorically; acupunture works in context of this metaphorical architecture by stimulating the autonomic nervous system and the connective tissue system to push the body towards homeostasis - if u look at what acupuncture works for, u realize it's a form of constitutional medicine; it doesn't work on the same principles as tuina or herbal medicine - however, these approaches also influence "qi"; so use of the "qi" metaphor is not unique to acupunture; "qi" is, again, an amalgam - it's a metaphorical descriptor designed to be diagnostic, prognostic and predictive; if u disagree, go read Kaptchuk's Web That Has No Weaver, and u will emerge with a much more correct understanding of "qi"

Chi is like gravity, can you see gravity, is it bio mechanical?,

ur argument is intrinsically faulty - u can't see gravity, but u can demonstrate objectively it to anyone at any time; "qi" OTOH cannot be demonstrated at all, it is a purely subjective experience

just because you cannot use Chi does not mean other people can't.

people can claim to see all sorts of things - this is why we differentiate between subjective experience and objective fact;

Doing your external exercises will not develop your Chi, and your bio mechanical momentum is not useing Chi.

yes u can, and yes it is - "qi" is not exclusive to so-called "internal" - the function of the human organism in context of its environment is what "qi" describes - doing so-called "external" and biomechanics r all aspects / expressions of "qi"
this is the typical internalist conceit that internal / qi is somehow higher than / beyond simple "crude" biomechanics - it's part of the superiority mindset that Sun Lu Tang set up and validated when he made the distinction btw internal / external in his book.

So if you want to think you are doing internal too, without doing the training, you might be the one drinking the kool-aid.

ur assessment of "qi" is typical of those who hav not studied classical Taoist practice in any great depth;

Yes, that would be the Tai-Chi Classics.

those would also be made up - u shud do ur historical research a bit more thoroughly; the so-called taiji classic were serendipitously "discovered" by two of Yang Lu Chan's students (the Mo brothers) hidden in a salt shop; if u knew a little about Yang's level of literary education and his level of understanding regarding the theoretical end of what he taught, as well as that of the Mo brothers, u wouldn't take those writings as classics about anything

We are talking about using Chi, that goes beyond the basic study of bio mechanics.

"basic' bio mechanics is probably more complex than u r aware of - have u even studied the topic at all?

Energy that you can not put in your hand, thought, gravity, light etc.

If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.[/QUOTE]
this is ur rigid bias and dilletantism coming through - ur sub-text is typical: internal is "beyond" the ability of science, and anyone who doesn't agree w ur perspective...

I am not saying the sump guy and tai-chi guy is not bio mechanics, it looks like it to me also. I know what bio mechanics are, and internal goes beyond explainable bio mechanics.

no, it goes beyond YOUR understanding of biomechanics; I can use biomechanics to explain so-called "internal" without any problem;

Almost everyone that practices Tai-Chi sets has no idea of the internal, the internal comes from doing the standing stuff, not Tai-Chi sets.

realy? let me ask you - can u analyze the classical 108 form from a Taoist Alchemical perspective? for example, the posture that most people call Single Whip - from a Taoist energetic perspective, what is going on there? my friend, ther is LOTS of 'internal" stuff going on in the taiji set...

So tell me of your years of standing experience.?

how about u tell us about yours?

Having not put your time standing, you would not no what evidence is anyway. But I can see the evidence. That's where the difference comes in.

ok - so what is the "evidence' that u have seen as a result of doing standing practice?
Have u achieved Macro Orbit? how about Micro Orbit? do yu know what those are? can u explain them physiologically?

Who said internal is not used for combat?, that is probably one of the reasons why it was developed, to counter all the external muscle heads, without being a muscle head, or the smaller to defeat the larger.

lol - u really buy into that conceit? u've been reading a bit too much Sun Lu Tang propoganda...

Plus all the health benefits that go along with internal practice.

no different than the health benefits that go along with so-called"external" practices like yoga (which is really closer to "internal" than most people think it is), Feldenkries, Pilates (when done according to the founder;s perspective, not the modern day stuff u see), etc.;

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

doing forms wil not make u any sort of MA guy, internal or external;

[Robinhood]

because "qi" is a metaphor; it's not a distinct entity in the way light, heat, electricity, gravity, etc. are; however, these various phenommena are all aspects / manifestations of "qi" - "qi" is a means of getting a handle on the complex interactions of the various body systems; when u don't have the ability technoogically to say what is going on specificaly, when u hav no notion of the cell, blood chemistry, etc., u come up with a methodology that is based on macro-observation: pulse / tongue dx, palpation of other things, pt. history, appearance of the eyes, skin, etc. - then u take all of those and contextualize them metaphorically; acupunture works in context of this metaphorical architecture by stimulating the autonomic nervous system and the connective tissue system to push the body towards homeostasis - if u look at what acupuncture works for, u realize it's a form of constitutional medicine; it doesn't work on the same principles as tuina or herbal medicine - however, these approaches also influence "qi"; so use of the "qi" metaphor is not unique to acupunture; "qi" is, again, an amalgam - it's a metaphorical descriptor designed to be diagnostic, prognostic and predictive; if u disagree, go read Kaptchuk's Web That Has No Weaver, and u will emerge with a much more correct understanding of "qi"


ur argument is intrinsically faulty - u can't see gravity, but u can demonstrate objectively it to anyone at any time; "qi" OTOH cannot be demonstrated at all, it is a purely subjective experience


people can claim to see all sorts of things - this is why we differentiate between subjective experience and objective fact;


yes u can, and yes it is - "qi" is not exclusive to so-called "internal" - the function of the human organism in context of its environment is what "qi" describes - doing so-called "external" and biomechanics r all aspects / expressions of "qi"
this is the typical internalist conceit that internal / qi is somehow higher than / beyond simple "crude" biomechanics - it's part of the superiority mindset that Sun Lu Tang set up and validated when he made the distinction btw internal / external in his book.


ur assessment of "qi" is typical of those who hav not studied classical Taoist practice in any great depth;


those would also be made up - u shud do ur historical research a bit more thoroughly; the so-called taiji classic were serendipitously "discovered" by two of Yang Lu Chan's students (the Mo brothers) hidden in a salt shop; if u knew a little about Yang's level of literary education and his level of understanding regarding the theoretical end of what he taught, as well as that of the Mo brothers, u wouldn't take those writings as classics about anything


"basic' bio mechanics is probably more complex than u r aware of - have u even studied the topic at all?


If you want to put it under a microscope that is external stuff.

]





Thanks for your long winded reply that just lets us all know that you don't have or know what internal is !.

Why don't you do what Eric said and stand for a year, then come back with a little experience, then maybe you would have something to base your comments on.

[Scott R. Brown]

Boy, I am away for awhile and you guys are making things up already.

Where did you get 4 years of experience from?, if you need to make up lies because you can not defend your position with words, that does not say much of your character.

If you think your learning Tai-Chi sets at seven years old means something, that is your experience with internal, no wonder.

Lets stick to the discussion not try to act like politicians.

Lighten up Leslie! It is called hyperbole! Look it up!

I don't care if you have trained for 4 years or 10, you are still a novice who doesn't know what you are talking about. You are very good at repeating platitudes, but anyone can do that, so that is not very impressive!

[wenshu]

You can't throw someone who doesn't already have some forward momentum or who is dead weight (ie totally limp).

This is just. . . wow. . . just, wow.

I don't even know what to think anymore.

[Scott R. Brown]

this is ur rigid bias and dilletantism coming through - ur sub-text is typical: internal is "beyond" the ability of science, and anyone who doesn't agree w ur perspective...


no, it goes beyond YOUR understanding of biomechanics; I can use biomechanics to explain so-called "internal" without any problem;


realy? let me ask you - can u analyze the classical 108 form from a Taoist Alchemical perspective? for example, the posture that most people call Single Whip - from a Taoist energetic perspective, what is going on there? my friend, ther is LOTS of 'internal" stuff going on in the taiji set...


how about u tell us about yours?


ok - so what is the "evidence' that u have seen as a result of doing standing practice?
Have u achieved Macro Orbit? how about Micro Orbit? do yu know what those are? can u explain them physiologically?


lol - u really buy into that conceit? u've been reading a bit too much Sun Lu Tang propoganda...


no different than the health benefits that go along with so-called"external" practices like yoga (which is really closer to "internal" than most people think it is), Feldenkries, Pilates (when done according to the founder;s perspective, not the modern day stuff u see), etc.;


doing forms wil not make u any sort of MA guy, internal or external;

Oh Boy! You asked for it now!!

Everybody back up.....make room.....make room.......he may have just unleashed Chris!!!!!

Dim wit has NO IDEA WHAT HE IS DOING HERE! He has just fed the Gremlin!!!

Go Chris, GO! Go Chris GO!!!

You better hope Chris is too busy to post, cuz you are in for it now!!!!

[taai gihk yahn]

Thanks for your long winded reply that just lets us all know that you don't have or know what internal is !.

=
lol - typical - I present you with detailed specifics that refute your claims, and that you can't answer, and so u characterize me as "long winded", and then broadly dismiss me as having no idea what so-called "internal" is, without providing any evidence to support ur assertion that I don't (e.g. - refuting what I state as incorrect and showing why); all because I don't agree with your party-line perspective on it;

seems like if anyone is blowing wind here, it's you;

Why don't you do what Eric said and stand for a year, then come back with a little experience, then maybe you would have something to base your comments on.

instead of ducking, why don't YOU answer the questions I posed:

1) in regards to standing, have u achieved Macro Orbit? how about Micro Orbit? if u r so "internally" astute as u claim, u should at least have achieved that; if u hav, u shud b familiar with what is required to move the circulation beyond Jade Pillow - in what way did this occur for u?

2) considering the taiji posture called SIngle WHip: how is it relevant in terms of Taoist Alchemical (the root of so-called "internal") practice? what does it represent? how does it relate to general standing practice, and progress beyond it?

these are RUDIMENTARY aspects of classical internal practice; if u have been standing for at least a year, under the guidance of a classically trained master, u shud have been exposed to the principles and concepts germane to these things;

if u want to talk as an authority about internal, u shud b able to speak to these things with relative ease;

it's amazing - everytime I address detailed specifics of classical internal practice to someone who runs off at the mouth like they understand it all, they have no answer, and I am told I have no knowledge thereof; what is wrong with people on this board?

[Scott R. Brown]

I think the saying is about movement, small is better than big move and no movement is better than small movement.

And a gun is better than all of them. One bullet erases 100 years of training!

Maybe the people you think are IMA guys, are not.

If they have put there time in standing, then they might be IMA guys, otherwise they are just external guys that think they are internal because they do forms that are supposed to be internal, big difference.

Doing internal forms will not make you internal MA guy.

So, let me get this straight, moving does not make you an internal guy, but standing does???

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

[taai gihk yahn]

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

Ooo! Ooo! Ooo! Mr. Kahter!!! Ooo! Ooo!

[Robinhood]

Lighten up Leslie! It is called hyperbole! Look it up!

I don't care if you have trained for 4 years or 10, you are still a novice who doesn't know what you are talking about. You are very good at repeating platitudes, but anyone can do that, so that is not very impressive!

Your the one that is trying to BS me, but I can see your hand, and you don't have the cards to back up your claims.

If you don't have it, you can't bluff your way with someone that has it.

Take the time and do some steady standing and maybe you will realize something.

I have been where you are, your the novice.

Try to figure out what JING means, this is what you are missing in your bio mechanical world.

[Scott R. Brown]

Your the one that is trying to BS me, but I can see your hand, and you don't have the cards to back up your claims.

If you don't have it, you can't bluff your way with someone that has it.

Take the time and do some steady standing and maybe you will realize something.

I have been where you are, your the novice.

Try to figure out what JING means, this is what you are missing in your bio mechanical world.

RiiiIIIIIiiiiiight! I missed the magic, that no one knows here but you because you are the REAL internal guy who doesn't even know the history of the term or what it really means, only the made up meaning from Sun Lu'tang!

[Robinhood]

And a gun is better than all of them. One bullet erases 100 years of training!



So, let me get this straight, moving does not make you an internal guy, but standing does???

Let me ask you this, Einstein, what Chinese Treatise first introduces the term "Internal" from the Taoist perspective?

If you guys spent half the time at your art as you do trying to protect what little you think you have, you might get somewhere.

Your like a paper pusher that never gets any real work done.

You need to stop worrying about what I can do, and figure out why you can't do it.

I give you the book and it describes everything, and all you guys can say it is fake, its only fake to you because you can't do or understand it.

That says volumes about you.

[Scott R. Brown]

it's amazing - everytime I address detailed specifics of classical internal practice to someone who runs off at the mouth like they understand it all, they have no answer, and I am told I have no knowledge thereof; what is wrong with people on this board?

You see, the problem you have is that you think you know something just because you have practiced for years under a renowned and accomplished Taoist Teacher with a long list of students and has credentials up the yahoo, but you are no Robinhood with his 4 years of standing and 6 months or reading really important books on Tai Chi Taoverse Deity knowledabilisticnesses!

[Scott R. Brown]

If you guys spent half the time at your art as you do trying to protect what little you think you have, you might get somewhere.

Your like a paper pusher that never gets any real work done.

You need to stop worrying about what I can do, and figure out why you can't do it.

I give you the book and it describes everything, and all you guys can say it is fake, its only fake to you because you can't do or understand it.

That says volumes about you.

If you spent some time answering simple questions put to you about simple topics that you SHOULD know something about if you are the internalist you pretend to be because you are an expert at standing, then perhaps you would not reap the ridicule you are sowing....or something like that!