Eagle Claw

[David Jamieson]

thanks for the perversion dude. lol

I knew I could count on you to bring up some weird sexual deviance.

[KC Elbows]

I'm pretty sure that, based on my online persona, many believe I train in leather chaps and a tube top. Nothing could be more wrong. You simply can't fit enough patches on a tube top to be taken seriously as a martial artist.

[David Jamieson]

I'm pretty sure that, based on my online persona, many believe I train in leather chaps and a tube top. Nothing could be more wrong. You simply can't fit enough patches on a tube top to be taken seriously as a martial artist.

maybe you could be the inventor of the tube gi?

be like one of those nascar gi's except more tube like.

[KC Elbows]

maybe you could be the inventor of the tube gi?

be like one of those nascar gi's except more tube like.

It's just not plausible. Too many patches would be obscured by my manboobs and backfat, even if I can tie a rope dart to my back hair.

I should stop now. But I can't.

[omarthefish]

I know I'm not the first to say it, but forms are scales, fighting is using those scales.

One can play and pick up the scales from what seems to fit by trial and error, but this requires one person to relearn what ages of people have codified.

You can play the scales, perform by rote, and be decent as long as you know the song, but this never develops a real understanding of the scales themselves, and thus limits what you can do with them.

Know the scales and their usage, and you will bag scores of women with low self esteem, freaky women with father complexes and skimpy lingerie.

Know the songs by rote, and you will bag junior high school music teachers.

The decision is clear, even if the metaphor is not.

I've always taken issue with that metaphor. It suggests really lame form performances. I don't want to get to far pushing it but really scales are not even forms. They are basic exercises like stance training or 2 and 3 move combos on a bag. There's vastly more involved in a decent form performance and the right analogy is really performing an entire piece. A good form performance should have distinct parts. And entrance, build to a crescendo in the middle and some sort of denouement. If you want a musical analogy to fighting I would say something more like a live concert or better still, improvisational jazz.

A full song, like a form, is entirely choreographed but still allows for tremendous room for creative interpretation and personalization . . .but for the most part, all the notes are planned out ahead. It's in creative improvisation where you get the unexpected and the need to adapt to your "co-creators"/opponents. That's where you have to adapt to what other people are doing on the fly and respond appropriately.

The metaphor of scales as forms and song as fighting does a disservice to the requirements of both forms and fighting. It dumbs both of them down.

[KC Elbows]

I've always taken issue with that metaphor. It suggests really lame form performances. I don't want to get to far pushing it but really scales are not even forms. They are basic exercises like stance training or 2 and 3 move combos on a bag. There's vastly more involved in a decent form performance and the right analogy is really performing an entire piece. A good form performance should have distinct parts. And entrance, build to a crescendo in the middle and some sort of denouement. If you want a musical analogy to fighting I would say something more like a live concert or better still, improvisational jazz.

A full song, like a form, is entirely choreographed but still allows for tremendous room for creative interpretation and personalization . . .but for the most part, all the notes are planned out ahead. It's in creative improvisation where you get the unexpected and the need to adapt to your "co-creators"/opponents. That's where you have to adapt to what other people are doing on the fly and respond appropriately.

The metaphor of scales as forms and song as fighting does a disservice to the requirements of both forms and fighting. It dumbs both of them down.

Nice to see you again, Omar.

My intention was to suggest that the fight was not like a prearranged song, but more like improvisational jazz or baroque in that it was guided in certain ways, but depended on a knowledge of how the notes relate, which is what is suggested in most scales.

Of course, the moves of a set are more complicated than a tone, but I still feel that forms are the scale of a style, they contain what "notes" are in use, how they relate, and why. This will not hold true for all forms, some forms repeat sections and do contain combos, so, like most analogies, there is never a perfect fit. True, to call a single step and a combo both "notes", but functionally, the analogy is useful. If you cannot improvise on your scale, you do not understand it, if you cannot improvise using your form, you do not understand fighting.

However, the idea of the form as a piece in music is not very good either. A piece in music rarely relays a complete methodological approach, but only pieces of music theory that, together, convey emotion. A form worth learning conveys a complete methodological approach.

This is, of course, biased by what form I practice, which does not contain portions solely meant to convey stance, but is almost entirely application.

I like your comment about the "cocreators/opponents" contributing to improvisation.

[ShaolinDan]

I didn’t want to start a new thread on this since I found this on search engine. I have some questions hope you can help.

1. There is a school that teaches ying jow pai and wu style tai chi here master shum linage. Is this a combative system or wushu. My understanding is it’s combative system from northern shoaling?

2. On the main board were all the threads are there is a southern but nothing northern shoaling except praying mantis. Just curious why?

1. Correct. (except for 'shoaling' ) There is a wushu Eagle Claw too, but Master Shum is traditional.

2. I don't know the reason, but Eagle Claw politics is probably even uglier than most KF styles, so I'm glad there isn't a specific forum for it. All northern eagle claw today has come through Shaolin (and Chin Woo), so technically it could fit in the Shaolin forum. Also it's very similar in many ways to Mantis, so sometimes I'll post something there.

[omarthefish]

The threads been resurrected and just as well because I never noticed KC's response. It's still an annoying issue in my mind because it's such a common metaphor.

Nice to see you again, Omar.

My intention was to suggest that the fight was not like a prearranged song, but more like improvisational jazz or baroque in that it was guided in certain ways, but depended on a knowledge of how the notes relate, which is what is suggested in most scales.

This part I agree with but . . . .

Of course, the moves of a set are more complicated than a tone, but I still feel that forms are the scale of a style, they contain what "notes" are in use, how they relate, and why. This will not hold true for all forms, some forms repeat sections and do contain combos, so, like most analogies, there is never a perfect fit.

Up to this point, I actually feel that the analogy is as perfect as perfect gets. I rely heavily on this analogy in order to share my life's passion with my Dad. He is not a martial artist but he's a really skilled musician (Classical guitar)and dancer (Tango). We use the comparisons between music and MA to talk about form and dance and MA to talk about some of the more improvisational aspects.

However, the idea of the form as a piece in music is not very good either. A piece in music rarely relays a complete methodological approach, but only pieces of music theory that, together, convey emotion. A form worth learning conveys a complete methodological approach.

RARELY is this true of forms. That's why almost all systems have several forms. Talking about the purpose of forms is where the analogy breaks down but one very real aspect of forms is as performance pieces. In this respect, the analogy is still pretty **** good.

It's been a couple years since we talked about this and now I think I would back away a bit from the improv aspects or rather, think about them more as a parallel training aspect that can improve form although that's not the goal. Probably, as a result of me having done a fair bit of competitive form work this past year I see form more and more like complete musical performances. I now see the improv as far more of a fighting or creative training drill thing (like push hands---even more improvisational than sparring IMO)

OTOH, I've really raised my respect for good forms training and, at the risk of beating the metaphor to death here, would never consider improvisational jazz to be a "higher form" of music or one that requires more skill than a classical musician needs. I prefer Jazz but have MASSIVE respect and even awe of classical musicans' gongfu. In the same respect, doing a form well, I mean competitively on a national level, is so freaking hard, how could I possible see it as just an exercise to help you get better at something else? That would be for the individual doing the training to decide.

[HeavenSword]

looks pointless. where are the applications? i didnt see anything practical, just a bald guy dancing......badly.

Its sad when socalled martial arts "experts" spew their ignoranse on toforums What happens is after so long seeing joke martial arts you no longer recgognise actuall martial arts expertise when you see it. Anyone who knows about real martial arts knows that this video shows high level transitions, stances and traditional Eagle Claw attack and defences at a level combining lethal grace from one of Europes top sifus. I know because Ive actually been and trained with Sifu Julian Dale as oposed to you cowards who critisise in ignorance from far away. take a bag for your teeth if you ever dare say this to his face.

[Ray Pina]

Its sad when socalled martial arts "experts" spew their ignoranse on toforums What happens is after so long seeing joke martial arts you no longer recgognise actuall martial arts expertise when you see it.

So was that joke martial arts or was that actual martial expertise?

Data absorbed: shaven man with disconnected movement. 49 seconds to 58 seconds in continuously see him plant the foot and weight and then use only arm power.... this is showing low understanding through form.

Then there's the fact that most martial arts I know only live when two or more people are in armed or unarmed conflict. This is a man moving quickly but badly around a seated audience.

This is expertise?

[hskwarrior]

Data absorbed: shaven man with disconnected movement. 49 seconds to 58 seconds in continuously see him plant the foot and weight and then use only arm power.... this is showing low understanding through form.

so, are you going to make a video and show us what you mean? and i mean video of you doing it the correct way. if you don't show us a video of you doing it the proper way how can you expect anyone to believe what you're saying?

[Ray Pina]

The foot and hand should be connected.

Strikes, lifting and/or pressing motions, they should all be driven forward as if pushing something, like a car. Or is going backwards, with a pulling angle like tugging rope.

The strike or lift or press should culminate at that point where the full body plus gravity employs it. Or if lifting, the other has committed weigh onto you and you lift their base.

Striking after the front horse-like stance lands negates any use of body. It just becomes arm punching.

.... if my student is around this week I'll film some good drills and show form.

[hskwarrior]

The foot and hand should be connected.

Strikes, lifting and/or pressing motions, they should all be driven forward as if pushing something, like a car. Or is going backwards, with a pulling angle like tugging rope.

The strike or lift or press should culminate at that point where the full body plus gravity employs it. Or if lifting, the other has committed weigh onto you and you lift their base.

Striking after the front horse-like stance lands negates any use of body. It just becomes arm punching.

.... if my student is around this week I'll film some good drills and show form.

nah, you're gonna have to show us. I'm curious to see how you'd do compared to him

[Lucas]

Well I haven't rewatched the vid, but what ray is saying is totally correct. I know ur just giving him a hard time tho. I mean if you do punch from a solid stance you can still put more than just arm power there with waist rotation, and still driving with the feet, but if you are punching with forward footwork you're best off landing with as much body weight and momentum as you can behind the strike.

[ShaolinDan]

More versions of the same form, all played differently...just for fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gC_hb11o0vc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5taweUc-VSc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVmTHzWMeH8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dzsglEfVg0g