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Thread: Wing Chun sparring

  1. #46
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    im saying though even if you are just training for self defense you should train like your going to fight the devel lol
    six months wil you see an improvement? yes and depending on the person more so than others
    but again it may not be enough to protect yourself its a pretty big assumption to think so

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  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by goju View Post
    im saying though even if you are just training for self defense you should train like your going to fight the devel lol
    six months wil you see an improvement? yes and depending on the person more so than others
    but again it may not be enough to protect yourself its a pretty big assumption to think so
    You nailed it! The most beneficial training that I did was full-contact fight preparation. Whether one is going to fight or not, just train like it for a while and the skill level will explode!

  3. #48
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    Now, are you saying TWC does not have the necessary tools/concepts to operate from longer or pre-contact range and bridge into close range on its own?
    No, and don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying the curriculum is there to be extended.

    Go train for a few ring fights (or street fights if the ring ain't realistic enough ). The guys I talked about did, and came up with the approaches I mentioned.

    I'll take their actual experience over your and everyone else's principles, concepts and theory every day of the week.
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  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    No, and don't put words in my mouth. I'm saying the curriculum is there to be extended.
    It wasn't my intention to put words into your mouth, just to understand what you mean better. Take it however you want, my questions still remain.

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Go train for a few ring fights (or street fights if the ring ain't realistic enough ). The guys I talked about did, and came up with the approaches I mentioned.

    I'll take their actual experience over your and everyone else's principles, concepts and theory every day of the week.
    However you suggest I go train still wouldn't answer my questions regarding TWC's approach to fighting from long to short range.
    And, I would expect you to take the word of someone you know over me, someone you don't. But, that still doesn't answer my questions regarding 'why' they do what they do, nor TWC's own approach to closing the gap from what some term as long range.

    Thanks anyway

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    WCK is about occupying your space with the strongest structure & maintaining your own CL and gravity while dominating your opponents’ gravity and taking away their structures. It’s about controlling their COM once the attack has been neutralized and then destroying what’s left of it. A WCK fighter shouldn’t ‘look like’ a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?
    It's not just WCK that's about occupying your space with the strongest structure, maintaining your CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures, controlling COM, neutralizing attacks and destroying COM. This is in essence the aim of all skilled fighters. Those who win can do that, those who don't can't. What someone "looks like" in the process of doing this is probably not all that important.

  6. #51
    I think the principal you should be guided by is to compliment your WC with techniques that address it's weaknesses. Every approach has its strengths and weaknesses.

    By learning some kickboxing, you don't give away what your strength is. If your opponent knows you only want to get close, they can adjust to keep things at range.

    Throwing a few kicks and long range punches to keep them guessing sets them up so you can move in close.


    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Now, I agree, you should work out with as many different people from as many different fighting backgrounds as possible. And I see nothing wrong with using different things to get the job done as long as they are guided by principal. But I don't think you have to mix in what they are doing if what you are doing already works. It has nothing to do with pride, stylistic purity or agenda. It has to do with common sense.
    ...
    ...
    A WCK fighter shouldn’t ‘look like’ a kickboxer when fighting at what some call long range because some of what kickboxers go as stylists goes against WCK body structure methods and COG principals. Can I mix in their kicks and punches? I guess. But until I have dominated my opponents COG and structures and put my self into an advantageous position, they go against WCK principals. And once I have done that, do I really need long range kicks and punches?

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    It's not just WCK that's about occupying your space with the strongest structure, maintaining your CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures, controlling COM, neutralizing attacks and destroying COM. This is in essence the aim of all skilled fighters. Those who win can do that, those who don't can't. What someone "looks like" in the process of doing this is probably not all that important.
    Quite true, - Hung Kuen has this philosophy, as does Sumo, even Judo, and Shuai Jiao.

  8. #53
    As I believe you are not trolling, but asking an honest question, JP...I'll give an answer to the TWC approach to long range - from my perspective.

    TWC uses two basic approaches to fighting from long range-to-close range:

    1) The Entry technique

    2) Attacking the blindside

    The Entry Technique (as William Cheung likes to call it) is done by lifting the lead leg into a defensive position along with both arms in a variation of an almost fully extended bil sao with the lead arm and a more-extended-than-usual wu sao with the rear arm...and hopping into the opponent's space at a slight angle.

    The best way I've ever heard it described (by Blaine Collins, William Cheung's first American student and the dai-sihing of the entire North American chapter of William Cheung's World Wing Chun Kung Fu Association from it's inception in 1982 until Blaine voluntarily left the association at the end of 1990)...

    is to look upon The Entry Techique as kind of like the classical Roman legion soldiers who used their shield to get close to the opponent safely and then began attacking with the short sword held in the other hand once they arrived.

    The raised leg, the wu sao and the bil are the shield - in this analogy.

    And I've been using this move since I started TWC in 1983 (that's 26 years now)...so I don't think it's unreasonable for me to say that I know something about how to use it - and what it's limitations are.

    And I've used it successfully not only in sparring but also in an actual streetfight when up against two opponent's many years ago - and the element of surprise is a big factor with this move - as well as the fact that it can look intimidating as it comes in on you...prompting many people to back away from it...which can play into the TWC man's hands very well, as a matter of fact, since if the opponent back's up you can easily follow with a kick coming from the rear leg and keep him on the defense and continuing to back up and/or get kicked or punched.

    It can work very well in this regard, but as I found through the years while sparring against skilled guys it does have it's limitations, ie.- the grappler will jump at the chance to grab that leg that's up in the air and launch a takedown, and against a good puncher he can time the "end" of your ENTRY TECHNIQUE and launch punches just as your lead foot is coming down to the floor...(and I might also add that not only is this my experience, but I have a very clear memory of William Cheung himself - waaaay back in the day - when asked about what are possible weaknesses of the Entry Technique - he himself offered the explanation I just gave about the move possibly getting timed so as to lauch an attack against the TWC man just as the lead foot is going back down to the floor).

    In conclusion about this move, it's been my experience through the years that it works best when coming from the parallel leg position (ie.- my leading right leg vs. his leading left leg)...and when up against someone who looks like he's in a "kicking" type stance, if you get what I mean (as you can jam up his kicks quite nicely by extending your lead "shielding" leg and making it into a kicking weapon of your own as you're coming in)....

    and it can work well against people who like to back up or dance around like a fancy up-on-his-toes boxer type, regardless of whether you started from parallel or cross leg positioning.

    BUT IT HAS IT'S LIMITATIONS, clearly.

    As does the blindside strategy, as a matter of fact.

    This set of moves/strategies comes from the parallel position as well and is an attempt to jam up (and play off) his lead elbow as you either come in with some punches mixed with pak, gum, pak-cheun, bong-larp, or bong-larp-gum sao...or when he throws a straight punch at you with his lead arm....and can work very well in getting you a two-arm-on-one-arm advantage (hence the term "blindside", since he might also even have trouble keeping track of your lead arm punches due to the angling used with this)...

    until you run into a skilled boxer type who is not throwing his lead hand punches with abandon - but is rather very skilled at mixing lines and jabs, and stiff straight leads, and hooks off the lead, so it can become very difficult, if not impossible, to bridge/jam his elbow at all...and/or he's simply timing you in order to land a big hook or uppercut with his lead hand as you come in...as this attempt to come into his space and either jam his elbow or punch your way in with vertical wing chun straight line punches can also be timed by a good boxer who leaves his lead arm off line as you attack (so there's no bridge) - resulting perhaps in eating a big hook, or an overhand, or an uppercut to the head (or the body) from his lead hand...

    and is doubly problematical if the opponent has a longer reach than you - since your wing chun vertical punches are structurally shorter in reach than his horizontally thrown boxing leads, crosses, and overhands.

    There are limitations. (Picture trying to use the above strategy against someone with the boxing skills like that of a Chuck Liddell, for example). Are you going to jam up and/or bridge off his lead elbow? Make him pay with a parallel positioned vertical wing chun punch attack that features your lead arm as the main attacking weapon?

    SO LIKE ANDREW SAID: adding longer range punching and kicking techniques to a wing chun arsenal like this will TURBOCHARGE your game. The reason being you are no longer relying upon
    a bridge in order to get to close range...and you're no longer limiting your attacking strikes to vertical wing chun straight punches.
    Last edited by Ultimatewingchun; 09-22-2009 at 11:38 PM.

  9. #54
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    since my karate style is based on southern kung fu especially crane like wc is and bares similarities to wc i found the best way to close the gap is by using the signature low kick that are common in all the southern styles including wc

    a good low side kick to the shin or knee or hip is a good way to immoblize your opponent especially if he moves around alot and allows you to close the gap

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  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    It's not just WCK that's about occupying your space with the strongest structure, maintaining your CL and gravity while dominating your opponents gravity and taking away their structures, controlling COM, neutralizing attacks and destroying COM. This is in essence the aim of all skilled fighters. Those who win can do that, those who don't can't. What someone "looks like" in the process of doing this is probably not all that important.
    Sure, this may very be the end result sought after, however it is easy to see how "outside-the-box" techniques can and do bring these concepts and principles into sketchy teritory.

    Upon watching the Judo competitions at the last Olympic games for examples... It was surprising to see how often some competitors gave up their COM to commit to certain applications and techniques... Often ending in poor results btw. Time was not on their side IMO

    I think this is one of those areas where we all seem to be after the same end result, but the means to the end and interpretation of these applied concepts are actually very different.

    Yes... What something "looks like" doesn't matter, as long as it first meets the prerequisite of being at the right time and space.

  11. #56
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    Thanks Victor for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.
    I can see the advantages and 'possible' disadvantages of the technique as you've mentioned and have seen some clips of this. I think this is also seen in the opening of your dummy form?

    In HFY, we do have a somewhat similar bridging strategy (minus the hop). One of which comes from our Bai Jong Baat Bo Jin training called Chin San Bo. Quickly put, it's about occupying your gates when moving forward into your opponent's space using 6-Gate Tin Yan Dei (heaven/human/earth) kiu sau concepts. The knee comes up to center and the hand spears up and forward into the upper gate. This strategy allows us to bridge with out opponent while not overcommitting and possibly taking a slight angle once the bridge has been made.

    Of course, there is a correct time and place/range for usage of this strategy. It typically would be used with you bridging just to the inside of thier lead attack, but not exlusive to staying on the inside. Depending on the energies on the bridge prior to putting the lead foot back down, you either can stay on the inside and stabalize the bridge, or you may move to the outside of the lead arm with the wu hand upon landing. I think the hop might limit these options some as it's more of a commited approach (just from my perspective).

    Do you have any other bridging strategies to close the gap? I have seen some other TWC vids that show a pak/biu type response to a lead attack, as well as using a bong/laap or kwan sau type of bridge going to the outside. What are your thoughts here?

    Thanks again for your reply.

    Jonathan
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 09-23-2009 at 10:30 AM.

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Quite true, - Hung Kuen has this philosophy, as does Sumo, even Judo, and Shuai Jiao.
    No sh!t. like Dave said, they all really do what I spoke about. That's obvious.
    But I was speaking of WCK specifically in case you missed that part, and I am pretty sure the arts you mention above use a different approach to the end goal than WCK does, so what's your point?

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edmund View Post
    I think the principal you should be guided by is to compliment your WC with techniques that address it's weaknesses. Every approach has its strengths and weaknesses.

    By learning some kickboxing, you don't give away what your strength is. If your opponent knows you only want to get close, they can adjust to keep things at range.

    Throwing a few kicks and long range punches to keep them guessing sets them up so you can move in close.
    How do you defeat someone with long rance punching and kicking?

    What exactly is long range punching?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  14. #59
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    Jonathan,

    You are really acting like a jerk...and get inflamed on everything I write. Take a chill pill, dude. No need for attack. If you want to hash things out with me personally, you know where to contact me. But honestly, I am calling you on this. Either put me on ignore or shut up. I have no beef with you personally or your clan. Please don't continue to escalate things.

  15. #60
    "Do you have any other bridging strategies to close the gap? I have seen some other TWC vids that show a pak/biu type response to a lead attack, as well as using a bong/laap or kwan sau type of bridge going to the outside. What are your thoughts here?" (JP)
    ..............................

    ***IF you reread my last post, Jonathan, I think you'll see that I did cover these moves.

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