View Poll Results: What to do about the 'Is Shaolin-Do for real?' thread

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  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Merge all S-D threads together so it clears 1000 posts!

    22 38.60%
  • Unlock IS-Dfr. Let all the S-D threads stand independently.

    13 22.81%
  • Keep IS-Dfr locked down. All IS-Dfr posters deserved to be punished.

    5 8.77%
  • Delete them all. Let Yama sort them out.

    17 29.82%
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Thread: Is Shaolin-Do for real?

  1. #13141
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    Sal, if you even watched the videos you would have known that he was showing basics that one would learn in their first few classes so your statement about it being advanced shows you aren't even caring to be objective.

    What was fundamentally wrong with his horse stance? Was his back out of alingment and if so, what is proper? Were his feet wrong? His legs at the wrong angle?

    I agree that SD is not pure CMA, that it has its own blending of body mechanics and power generation because it is a blending of CMA, JMA and IMA and then filtered trhough one man's (maybe two men's) understanding of the same and teaching it to a bunch of americans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Oso View Post
    AND, yea, a good bit of it is about whether you can fight with what you know...kinda all of it is about that.

  2. #13142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

    The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?
    Sin's stories don't exactly have a ton of credibility, you know? Maybe he thought it sounded more mystical. Earp also said there were several teachers there, and each only knew a couple of styles.

    Of course, it might not even be Ie. But the facial structure is close to that of the paintings, especially the jawline.

    But now you have them. Show them to Sin. Show them to the Soards. Or Leonard. Or whoever.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

  3. #13143
    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    I am not sure I ever made that statement although I might have said he was full of poo poo for other reasons.
    Well, that's a given.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golden Tiger View Post
    I will add that the old man in the pictures does not look to be build the same way as to the paintings. But that could be attributed to artistic impression.....
    It could be due to artistic impression or have been painted at an earlier date. I agree, I always thought he would be a bigger man. Maybe I am letting my western mind get in the way of what I think an iron man master should look like.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  4. #13144
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    There's elitists in every style. Karate guys will say the exact same thing about body mechanics, correct alignment, foundation, etc, except they believe that the Japanese or Okinawan way is the most correct and beneficial way for the body to move in order to produce the most strength and power, and that Chinese martial arts are wrong. And I'm sure the people who practice the "southern folk stuff" feel the same way about their styles' mechanics and postures. Every style thinks it is the most correct way. If it's an older style, it is the correct way because it came first and has been practiced for centuries. If it's a newer style, it's the correct way because they have made improvements over the years based on experience and education. So what style has it right?

    Of course, if you don't devote enough time to anything, you won't have it "right" no matter which style you're trying to represent.
    "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor. The dark fire will not avail you, flame of Udun! Go back to the shadow, you cannot pass!"

  5. #13145
    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

    The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?
    Well, this guy is white ... but that doesn't mean he is American. Or maybe he was American but friendly enough with the people there that he was accepted. Maybe Ie's bias was against mainland Americans or simply a general mistrust of the west. Or maybe the bias wasn't his own and simply those of his contemporaries.

    Ok, I am done speculating ... having a cookout for my students today and I need to go clean my grill.
    themeecer actually shares a lot of the passion that Bruce Lee had about adopting techniques into your own way of 'expressing yourself.'
    -shaolinarab
    (Nicest thing ever said about me on these boards.)

  6. #13146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    It's hard to tell. It very well could be Ie. It very well could be someone else.

    The thing is, Sin The has said he caught flak at first for teaching americans and that Ie would only teach Chinese. If this were true, then Sin The would either have not known about this guy or he is lying. If its the latter, why would he be lying? What does he benefit for that story?
    He benefits by coming across as the hero, who has opened to the door to the west.
    He becomes the sole key to obtaining this forbidden information. He becomes the only way to receive it. He gets more power and is seen as I an enlightened good guy that just wants to give westerners a chance.

  7. #13147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Leto View Post
    There's elitists in every style. Karate guys will say the exact same thing about body mechanics, correct alignment, foundation, etc, except they believe that the Japanese or Okinawan way is the most correct and beneficial way for the body to move in order to produce the most strength and power, and that Chinese martial arts are wrong. And I'm sure the people who practice the "southern folk stuff" feel the same way about their styles' mechanics and postures. Every style thinks it is the most correct way. If it's an older style, it is the correct way because it came first and has been practiced for centuries. If it's a newer style, it's the correct way because they have made improvements over the years based on experience and education. So what style has it right?

    Of course, if you don't devote enough time to anything, you won't have it "right" no matter which style you're trying to represent.
    None of you can answer my four questions because none of you were taught it.

    Basic foundational material is not elitism. It's core knowledge.
    If one professes to teach CMA routines, then one should know what the core knowledge is and should be able to transmit it. Unless one doesn't know and is copying routines from books OR unless one is deliberately holding back information.
    Last edited by Sal Canzonieri; 10-24-2009 at 07:55 AM.

  8. #13148
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    Sal I can answe your questions but you would only say that I learned it somewhere else since i took from other CMA in the past. KC
    But isnt it nice how power can be generated from the waist / or trunk
    A Fool is Born every Day !

  9. #13149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Judge Pen View Post
    Sal, if you even watched the videos you would have known that he was showing basics that one would learn in their first few classes so your statement about it being advanced shows you aren't even caring to be objective.

    What was fundamentally wrong with his horse stance? Was his back out of alignment and if so, what is proper? Were his feet wrong? His legs at the wrong angle?

    I agree that SD is not pure CMA, that it has its own blending of body mechanics and power generation because it is a blending of CMA, JMA and IMA and then filtered trhough one man's (maybe two men's) understanding of the same and teaching it to a bunch of americans.
    Well, for one, Sin The professes to teach NORTHERN SHAOLIN Routines, for the most part.
    CMA, JMA, IMA is contradictory information, each one was developed based on the social and environmental factors of the region. Chimera-izing Northern CMA makes it ineffective and inefficient.

    The horse stance is only emphasized in beginner training to strengthen the muscle skeletal structure and then they move on from there to what its real function and self defense use is for. The is no need for the deep standing still stance unless it is used for meditation purposes. The stances are never used like statues during movement of a routine, they are TRANSITIONAL MOVEMENTS ONLY.

    I wasn't focusing on the horse stance, that was the least important thing to observe, it was his movements and his transitions and his muscle-skeletal state and his awareness of "WHY" things are the way they are (well, if he was really doing CMA, instead of this self conflicting hybrid).

    What I have issue with all is all the core details are not there for the rest of the movements, not the stance per se, the stance is just a means to an end, it is not the end itself.
    The stance isolated HENDERS self defense. You can have a perfect horse stance, so what? What do you do with it? That's important to know, and then how do you move on from there to full actualize one's self defense ability. Martial art is self defense, not stances from a movie.

    Look, I am not trying to be all 'elite' and saying I am so much better than you all, if anyone thinks that then they are being defense.

    Why don't we really talk about the how and why, why the real stuff really works and why this stuff doesn't. The mechanics of CMA.
    (and sparring is artificial, it's not real self defense, it's a sport like thing)

    Well, I'd like to see you answer my four questions that I gave in that previous post.

  10. #13150
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Sal I can answe your questions but you would only say that I learned it somewhere else since i took from other CMA in the past. KC
    But isnt it nice how power can be generated from the waist / or trunk
    So, what does that mean? That you use other CMA to make your SD stuff work right?

  11. #13151
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    Territorial control?

    Quote Originally Posted by BoulderDawg View Post
    Show me the question you are talking about. I don't think I, or anyone else here for that matter, is so stupid that we don't know that it's bad form for one instructor to invade the territory of another.
    I was addressing the combination of your and KC's exchange, including someone's comment regarding anyone wanting to open a school anywhere they want (I know I am generalizing), and which I didn't say was "invading," but I guess that would be one way of looking at someone opening a school within a competitive distance to another, without some permission, or at least coordination. And including your question:

    "Why do they need to be groups of schools under this or that elder/senior master?"

    At least implying, an E/SM is the "head" of that area, and all schools within that "area" are "under" that Master. That seems to be consistent with a practiced business model of dividing areas into regions, with regional "managers," and individual districts, or territories, whatever you want to call them. I intended to address the concept, maybe not the exact words. I will plead guilty to going beyond the exact words of your question, in an attempt to address the broader concept, and was not implying anyone is "stupid." Note my history of posting: I do not attack anyone, particularly someone's intelligence whom I have never met -- although I may challenge their statements if constructive to do so.
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  12. #13152

    Hey Sal..

    What are your four questions ??? And what do you mean SD doesnt work and real CMA does??

    And BTW ...where is our new friend starr??

  13. #13153
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    I WANT to be educated - that is why I participate in THIS

    Quote Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri View Post
    Tien Shien Pai is a modern 1940s amalgamated system developed by someone that was pretty much like Sin The. He made it all up (history and origin) and based the style on real martial art routines from various systems. That system teaches a hodgepodge of material from all over.

    Same as Sin The's material is based on actual real routines, its not alien stuff not found anywhere on earth.

    Real true deep Chinese Martial Arts don't teach a ton of forms.
    You spend years learning how and why to do core body mechanics and movements, but they also teach how even the stretching and warm up moves can be used for self defense. Though they may give you deep and long term learning of the foundational material, they right away emphasize being able to defense yourself using everyday natural movements, so no time is wasted.
    Every single school or person I learned CMA from in the late 70s, 80s, etc taught this way. Efficiency and Effectiveness from day one. How and Why from day one.
    I am always trying to LEARN more about what I don't know, and always from someone who knows more than I. Right or wrong, GM Sin The, and his students who first taught me, knew a lot more than I did when I started, and as far as I can tell a lot more than anything else available at the time. As more than one teacher said to me me about martial arts, don't criticize Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do, part of it is in what we all do, too. So, doing something, if not the best (who gets to go to the real Temple to train?), is still better than nothing, isn't it? Not everyone has the good fortune to be where the Schools you describe are, and have the opportunities you apparently have had and benefitted from.

    I stand corrected if I don't know more about Tien Shien Pai than you do. I would be honored by you answering to me, here or by PM, the answers to your own prior 4 questions. It would of course test me and teach me at the same time, which you have no obligation to do. But that is the only reason I am "here" -- to learn more, or at least help others learn something I know that maybe they don't. Otherwise, this whole forum and everything like it is just "Guitar Hero."

    And no one "wants" to eat "dog poop," they just don't know that's what it is, if that's what it is -- and in some cases that is in the eye of the beholder. I would benefit from your answers to your own questions, regardless of whether I agree with them, or even understand them, or not. Different perspectives are educational in themselves, aren't they?
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  14. #13154
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    Answers?

    Quote Originally Posted by kwaichang View Post
    Sal I can answe your questions but you would only say that I learned it somewhere else since i took from other CMA in the past. KC
    But isnt it nice how power can be generated from the waist / or trunk
    So, how difficult is it to at least generally say what you think the answers to those questions are, either here or by PM, so we/I can decide, is it something we already know/do, or not?
    Just One Student

    "I seek, not to know all the answers, but to understand the questions." --- Kwai Chang Caine

    (I'd really like to know all the answers, too, but understanding the questions, like most of my martial arts practice, is a more realistically attainable goal)

  15. #13155
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    Quote Originally Posted by themeecer View Post
    Well, this guy is white ... but that doesn't mean he is American. Or maybe he was American but friendly enough with the people there that he was accepted. Maybe Ie's bias was against mainland Americans or simply a general mistrust of the west. Or maybe the bias wasn't his own and simply those of his contemporaries.

    Ok, I am done speculating ... having a cookout for my students today and I need to go clean my grill.
    He's not American. He's Dutch.
    He most honors my style who learns under it to destroy the teacher. -- Walt Whitman

    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    As a mod, I don't have to explain myself to you.

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