Bajiquan

[Hardwork108]

I hate to break it to you but. . . bawang nailed it. That video is pretty cool but the main thing it has going for it is decent editing and a really cool setting for the filming. As actual traditional gongfu goes....lol. He's doing a pretty standard wushu version. The clip is labeled "Shaanxi Bajiquan". I live in Shaanxi. I'm pretty familiar with who's doing what out here.

I can go into specifics on what he's doing wrong from a practical perspective if you want. His movements are crisp and clean but mostly useless.

I am no Bajiquan expert, but I know a thing or two about kung fu. The man's movements were precise, he had good stances and seemed to have good power release. To my eyes he performed the form beautifully, and if you check my original post, then you will see that this was the reason I gave for posting the video.

The man in the video is a practioner of the Shanxi styleo of Baji. Are you familiar with this lineage? He can also be seen in other video clips in Youtube, giving instruction.

If you practic Baji and think you can perform that same form better, then fine, perhaps you can post a video of it, or perhaps you can film Bawang doing the same form while he is rubbing his balls, as he always claims to be doing.

[omarthefish]

I am no Bajiquan expert, but I know a thing or two about kung fu. The man's movements were precise, he had good stances and seemed to have good power release. To my eyes he performed the form beautifully, and if you check my original post, then you will see that this was the reason I gave for posting the video.

Yes, I agreed already that his movements were precise his stances however, were, from a classical Baji perspective, garbage. I can't tell on the opening stance without a side view but the "horse" stance on the initial elbow strike (0:25) is comically wide. It's not even possible to land that elbow when it doesn't even reach past your lead foot. The knees are splayed outwards in violation of the quanpu and he has zero power being delivered to the elbow. The way he plays it, the elbow is placed in position and then the hand whips around. That's not an elbow strike. The next move (0:28) is supposed to be a big sweeping forearm smash or at least something like a Choi Li Fut sau choi. Again, he's crisp but there's not wait power in the movement. It's crisp like a breakdancer. The punch at (0:31) is a pet peeve of mine because I see even "traditional" Baji players often do it this way....the rear elbow is raised really high behind him but that's just for show. It's a stupid modern Wushu convention that has slipped into even many traditionalists's forms. It robs power and serves no tactical purpose. The rear hand should be pulled back near the waist or ribs, not held at head level and the trajectory on this guys punching hand is like some sort of weird sideways hammerfist. He's not even punching with it. He does a big flowery sweep into position. At (0:35) another bit of classic modern Wushu nonsense as he draws a big circle in the air with his left hand before slowly chambering it at his waist? ???

I could go on like this through the whole video. There's no martial applicability to the majority of the moves the way he's doing them, no waist power, no full body fa-jin, his stances are too wide and too low, no rounded back/waist. etc.

The man in the video is a practioner of the Shanxi styleo of Baji. Are you familiar with this lineage? He can also be seen in other video clips in Youtube, giving instruction.

No such thing as "Shaanxi" style of Baji. You mispelled it btw. It's only important because Shaanxi/陕西 needs to be distinguished from Shanxi/山西. I didn't see his teaching clips and couldn't tell what school he is affiliated. If you point me to some of those clips then I could probably comment more specifically.

If you practic Baji and think you can perform that same form better, then fine, perhaps you can post a video of it...

Sure thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8G9FW5hM3U
My form is a hell of a lot uglier and not nearly as precise as his but the power is much better and the body requirements are, for the most part, being met. Most importantly, my movements pretty much all work in a scrap. I threw up a couple samples you can see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

[CYMac]

smartthefish,

I saw your video, and I can say your baji looks more like a mantis hopper more than a baji though. The legs aren't even landed to fully go extreme in power and then you already jumped to the next move, that's way too fast for a baji form which is not even close to the meaning of baji. If you see baji by NG LIN CHI, as I posted above, he is the baiji's 7th generation lineage holder, you can't say he is wrong haha! Look at how he does it and you will see that yours is way too into ultra-speed, looks like yours is way more wushu based than the initial video with the sand set to me!~

The way why the person in the initial video with the sand set do the form in a lower stance is not because he is from wushu school, it's because it's a way to train and you must not always think about each move's martial application when you do a form. That's wrong. Doing a form is doing a form. As most styles do the form starting easy, then go low stance, then go higher stance and then refine to the normal stance. That is a process of building the foundation of the practitioner's stance and footwork. Also to build strength. In many styles, the forms varies because of the need to build a foundation in the body as well. So they looks like they don't make "sense" if you look at it in a combat perspective. But if you train with the form, you feel the boost of energy and power really quick. so it's different.

Don't forget, baji is about "extreme" and is about power, not about speed and quick moving or jumping. It's not a spring that bounce around to hit people, it's a canon that attune it's angle and do all the math and then strike out to unleash the power. As I say, please look at the world's #1 baji representative, NG LIN CHI, he will tell and show you what it's all about.

[omarthefish]

CYMac,

You have never actually trained Baji yourself so I am not really inclined to discuss the issue with you. Your performance is clearly a copy from one of the Wu-Tan guys. IMO, you copied it from Adam Hsu's performance.

I am not a really big fan of Wu Lian Zhi's Baji. (the guy you posted from Tudou.com: 吴连枝)

He's 7th generation? So what? I'm 8th gneration, but more to the point, from a totally different branch. IMO, his Baji is more Pigua power than anything else. I have a whole list of criticisms with his style just as I have criticisms of the Wu-Tan style that Adam Hsu represents, but, since you really don't have any foundation in Bajiquan yourself, I don't see any point in discussing stylistic variants with you.

[CYMac]

CYMac,

You have never actually trained Baji yourself so I am not really inclined to discuss the issue with you. Your performance is clearly a copy from one of the Wu-Tan guys. IMO, you copied it from Adam Hsu's performance.

I am not a really big fan of Wu Lian Zhi's Baji. (the guy you posted from Tudou.com: 吴连枝)

He's 7th generation? So what? I'm 8th gneration, but more to the point, from a totally different branch. IMO, his Baji is more Pigua power than anything else. I have a whole list of criticisms with his style just as I have criticisms of the Wu-Tan style that Adam Hsu represents, but, since you really don't have any foundation in Bajiquan yourself, I don't see any point in discussing stylistic variants with you.

Then why are you posting? The initial poster have not trained in baji either, are you then wasting your time typing all that stuff up there to him then? What's the point of talking here then? Why don't you go to a special "baji only" forum and talk if your kungfu is so precious and unique that you only discuss it with "baiji practitioners"? Wow, that's lots of confident and self-esteem as well as some "extreme" character you got there man! I see baji from the mouth!

[omarthefish]

[edit]
Thanks for the reminder, taai gihk yahn.

Post was too wordy anyways...
[/edit]

[taai gihk yahn]

[edit]
Thanks for the reminder, taai gihk yahn.

Post was too wordy anyways...
[/edit]

actual, too bad you erased it - I liked the way that you explicated your ontological perspective on your training, which was very well thought-out and reasonable; of course, BigMac wouldn't have a clue what you are talking about, since his training is all about breadth rather than depth, but I found it of value; maybe to repost it, if possible? (if not, so it's a great lesson on the nature of impermanence...)

[taai gihk yahn]

Then why are you posting? The initial poster have not trained in baji either, are you then wasting your time typing all that stuff up there to him then? What's the point of talking here then? Why don't you go to a special "baji only" forum and talk if your kungfu is so precious and unique that you only discuss it with "baiji practitioners"? Wow, that's lots of confident and self-esteem as well as some "extreme" character you got there man! I see baji from the mouth!

WOW!!!

you have just completely gone over the edge of asz-hat to asz-hole; I mean, are you serious?

you really have no clue - Omar is a long-time poster here, studies baji in China, is intelligent and erudite in his posts and actually demonstrates the style in form and usage; you OTOH demonstrate baji from the perspective of an anemic grandparent, have NO forma training in it, and completely misunderstand the whole point of the system: in short, you don't know SHIIT about baji - yet you have no problem lauding a clearly wushufied performance, critiquing Omar's form and then questioning his motivation for posting about it - you have raised the bar of shiit-heel to a new level, you corpulent, plagiocephalic lunatic

you are an asz-hole; if I had any thoughts of giving you a break, they are gone; I am going to make it my personal mission to hound your ridiculous hat-wearing asz wherever you post on this forum; get ready for misery

[taai gihk yahn]

Omar,

by now you have realize this guy is a total joke; please don't waste your time attempting to have an intelligent discussion with him, it's clearly not possible;

HW108,

While I can appreciate your aesthetically enjoying the original form (it was, after all, designed for performance), it's really not indicative of the style in terms of shape, energy, etc.; it would behoove you to pay close attention to what Omar is posting, his knowledge and experience of baji is more than that of anyone on here, in fact,probaby more than most people who you might have the opportunity to meet - he studied the style in depth with an acknowledged and reputable teacher, he reads / wrietes / speaks CHinese from an educated perspective, and has demoed his level in both form and application; if you really want to have some input in terms of authenticity, this is someone to pay attention to;

CYMac, OTOH, is a form-colecting hack, who has no kung Fu at all; his understanding of most of what he shows is superficial at best, and if you can't see that, then I am at a loss to provide you with further input

[wenshu]

you corpulent, plagiocephalic lunatic

OH SNAP!

He said you got a crooked skull son!

[CYMac]

WOW!!!

you have just completely gone over the edge of asz-hat to asz-hole; I mean, are you serious?

you really have no clue - Omar is a long-time poster here, studies baji in China, is intelligent and erudite in his posts and actually demonstrates the style in form and usage; you OTOH demonstrate baji from the perspective of an anemic grandparent, have NO forma training in it, and completely misunderstand the whole point of the system: in short, you don't know SHIIT about baji - yet you have no problem lauding a clearly wushufied performance, critiquing Omar's form and then questioning his motivation for posting about it - you have raised the bar of shiit-heel to a new level, you corpulent, plagiocephalic lunatic

you are an asz-hole; if I had any thoughts of giving you a break, they are gone; I am going to make it my personal mission to hound your ridiculous hat-wearing asz wherever you post on this forum; get ready for misery

Just curious, why don't you talk without using swear words? Can you talk without them? I mean... you really HAVE to use them in every replies to make your post readable or something? I can't believe how much swearing you use, as a martial artist, you are really hot headed man. Can't you relax? If you can't stop insulting and abusing or bullying, learn it, or else your kids will give you a hard time later on by doing the same thing. Be a good role model man...

[Hardwork108]

Yes, I agreed already that his movements were precise his stances

Well, that is part of the reason I posted it in this thread. It just looked good for what it was.

however, were, from a classical Baji perspective, garbage.

Perhaps, as a Baji practitioner, you are better qualified to make comments and criticisms than I am.

All I can say at this point is that sometimes a movement may not look "right" on a form, until someone hits you with it.

Also, no matter the details of the form in the way it was performed for camera, the same sifu may do it differently in a class, so it may not be fair to be to vocal about the criticisms.

I can't tell on the opening stance without a side view but the "horse" stance on the initial elbow strike (0:25) is comically wide. It's not even possible to land that elbow when it doesn't even reach past your lead foot. The knees are splayed outwards in violation of the quanpu and he has zero power being delivered to the elbow. The way he plays it, the elbow is placed in position and then the hand whips around. That's not an elbow strike. The next move (0:28) is supposed to be a big sweeping forearm smash or at least something like a Choi Li Fut sau choi. Again, he's crisp but there's not wait power in the movement. It's crisp like a breakdancer. The punch at (0:31) is a pet peeve of mine because I see even "traditional" Baji players often do it this way....the rear elbow is raised really high behind him but that's just for show. It's a stupid modern Wushu convention that has slipped into even many traditionalists's forms. It robs power and serves no tactical purpose. The rear hand should be pulled back near the waist or ribs, not held at head level and the trajectory on this guys punching hand is like some sort of weird sideways hammerfist. He's not even punching with it. He does a big flowery sweep into position. At (0:35) another bit of classic modern Wushu nonsense as he draws a big circle in the air with his left hand before slowly chambering it at his waist? ???

Thank you for taking time to explain the details. Again, some of what you say makes sense, other stuff may have made sense, either way, if I was Baji pracitioner.

I could go on like this through the whole video. There's no martial applicability to the majority of the moves the way he's doing them, no waist power, no full body fa-jin, his stances are too wide and too low, no rounded back/waist. etc.

Again, I saw some moves that seemed to exert power. Others may have been lacking fajing, but again, sometimes in kung fu, you don't see the fajing, you feel it on contact. That is why I am "careful".

No such thing as "Shaanxi" style of Baji. You mispelled it btw. It's only important because Shaanxi/陕西 needs to be distinguished from Shanxi/山西.

Well, have a look at the description of that video clip and you will see Shanxi written in that exact manner.

I didn't see his teaching clips and couldn't tell what school he is affiliated. If you point me to some of those clips then I could probably comment more specifically.

Here, I believe that this is the same sifu.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXglA...eature=related

Sure thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q8G9FW5hM3U
My form is a hell of a lot uglier and not nearly as precise as his but the power is much better and the body requirements are, for the most part, being met. Most importantly, my movements pretty much all work in a scrap. I threw up a couple samples you can see here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APqBOL3Sn04

Thank you for posting. To be honest, this is the first time I see shouting in a Baji clip. Is this how your lineage practices this particular form or was this just to enhance the form during a public performance?

From my readings and research, Grand Master Liu Yun Qiao seems to have been the real deal in the same wain as CTS of Lama Pai and Chee Kim Thong of Five Ancestor Fist (and other styles), so if someone asks to put up a video clips of what I consider authentic Baji, these would be a couple of them:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9-jg...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xHiRq...eature=related

[wenshu]

I know a thing or two about kung fu.

Not enough to know wushu when you see it.

[Hardwork108]

Not enough to know wushu when you see it.

Perhaps you are the one who cannot differentiate between wu shu and wu shu-esque?

[SPJ]

as pointed out

ba ji stance is more compact or with high horse stance.

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