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Thread: Hong Jong - Empty Dummy

  1. #31
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    My Friend Robert...Maybe I worded things wrong for you to understand!!!

    Did you say that SLT and CK are 95% of Wing Chun. What I got from that was your saying if you know SLT and CK you have 95% of the curriculm?


    Is this what you are saying friend?

    If so, Then I disagree with your perspective. From my View at best CK and SLT and Bil Jee are 50% of WC. But having those three forms is not the majority of the WC curriculm. But this is my opinion.


    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Yoshi,

    Its obvious you are very green and young. And I am being polite.

    The form becomes you after a while - how long depends on you. SNT and CK can create almost every move in WCK - so the 95% is not that much of a stretch.

    I think you may need remedial reading - I never said 95% of class time is spent on these forms.

    Is SNT useful or useless to you? That is the real question. Gu Lao WCK uses no forms. Do you really need a form? Who is the one that needs a form?

    As for blue and red pills, perhaps you have mixed up your suppositories...
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    My Friend Robert...Maybe I worded things wrong for you to understand!!!

    Did you say that SLT and CK are 95% of Wing Chun. What I got from that was your saying if you know SLT and CK you have 95% of the curriculm?


    Is this what you are saying friend?

    If so, Then I disagree with your perspective. From my View at best CK and SLT and Bil Jee are 50% of WC. But having those three forms is not the majority of the WC curriculm. But this is my opinion.

    You can disagree, and as you state, that is your opinion.

    But perhaps try to understand what I am saying and you will gleen more. What movements are not in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu that are not in the rest of the WCK system, excluding the pole, which has a different system behind it? Chi Sao, San Sao, applications, Biu Jee set, Muk Yan Jong and Baat Jaam Dao all are extensions of these 2 basic sets. What can you name that is not present in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu? SNT and CK are your basis - all the rest is for you to learn permutations and combinations. Even Gwai Jang and Fak Sao are just permutations or variations of basic moves in SNT and CK.

    As the Chinese state, first learn fixed, then become alive, finally master changes and permutations. This is in all Chinese arts.

    You may not realize it now, but what I am saying is not the beginner's POV. Anyway, this is what your sifu is supposed to teach you. How far are you in the WCK system? How long did you learn? And from whom? Did you get the complete transmission?

  3. #33
    There is a saying that if you truely understand the little idea, you have learnt
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    You can disagree, and as you state, that is your opinion.

    But perhaps try to understand what I am saying and you will gleen more. What movements are not in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu that are not in the rest of the WCK system, excluding the pole, which has a different system behind it? Chi Sao, San Sao, applications, Biu Jee set, Muk Yan Jong and Baat Jaam Dao all are extensions of these 2 basic sets. What can you name that is not present in Siu Nim Tao and Chum Kiu? SNT and CK are your basis - all the rest is for you to learn permutations and combinations. Even Gwai Jang and Fak Sao are just permutations or variations of basic moves in SNT and CK.

    As the Chinese state, first learn fixed, then become alive, finally master changes and permutations. This is in all Chinese arts.

    You may not realize it now, but what I am saying is not the beginner's POV. Anyway, this is what your sifu is supposed to teach you. How far are you in the WCK system? How long did you learn? And from whom? Did you get the complete transmission?
    Okay I agree that as for techniques the majority of techniques are found with in SLT and CK. But you have other techniques found in Bil Jee and Mok Yan Jong that are prevelant in first two forms. However there are three hands in Wing Chun.
    Tan, Fook and Bong. All other techniques are just variations of those three hands. So in essence one can say that 90% of WC system is knowing the three terrors of of WC.

    My disagreement is your percentage. But I see what your saying as Permutations and combinations. I do agree with your analogy of that. But I merely saying someone who Just has SLT and CK does not have the entire system. Because the forms do not teach you Sensitivity do they? you need Chi sau for that...Nor does the form teach you how to trap. The forms are an encylopedia. And you just because you have dictionary doesn't mean you have entire term paper. You use the words in dictionary to write your paper. But you need other elements to write a paper. Like practice, ink, pen, computer, etc.

    As for naming whats not present in SLT and CK.

    Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy

    Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy?

    Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy?

    Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy?

    Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee?

    Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee?

    Diaganol downward elbow strikes?

    But you are right when you say these are just permutations of SLT and CK. Because one can modify the techniques slightly from SLT and CK and do the same thing. But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik?


    But you made some good points I can not deny. Please share with me...What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Okay I agree that as for techniques the majority of techniques are found with in SLT and CK. But you have other techniques found in Bil Jee and Mok Yan Jong that are prevelant in first two forms. However there are three hands in Wing Chun.
    Tan, Fook and Bong. All other techniques are just variations of those three hands. So in essence one can say that 90% of WC system is knowing the three terrors of of WC.

    My disagreement is your percentage. But I see what your saying as Permutations and combinations. I do agree with your analogy of that. But I merely saying someone who Just has SLT and CK does not have the entire system. Because the forms do not teach you Sensitivity do they? you need Chi sau for that...Nor does the form teach you how to trap. The forms are an encylopedia. And you just because you have dictionary doesn't mean you have entire term paper. You use the words in dictionary to write your paper. But you need other elements to write a paper. Like practice, ink, pen, computer, etc.

    As for naming whats not present in SLT and CK.

    Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy

    Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy?

    Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy?

    Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy?

    Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee?

    Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee?

    Diaganol downward elbow strikes?

    But you are right when you say these are just permutations of SLT and CK. Because one can modify the techniques slightly from SLT and CK and do the same thing. But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik?


    But you made some good points I can not deny. Please share with me...What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of?

    My 95% statement is to reflect on how important the two sets are. WCK is basically Tan, Bong and Fuk. Sure 90% is okay. Statistics like that are just someone's estimation. 95% of statistics is made up on the spot, including my statement.

    As for your questions:

    Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy - This is found as the Double Chuen Kiu Sao opening of Chum Kiu

    Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy? - Simply use the outside Fuk and replace the hand with a diagonal Jum Sao, which creates the upper Jaam Sao, and of course, you have Gaun Sao in SNT...Kwun Sao is just a combo of shifting Bong Sao and upper Tan Sao

    Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy? - Huen Sao is in every set of WCK...simply alternate left and right while using CK shifts...

    Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy? - Every step is a kick, and you have double Lop Sao in SNT and CK...

    Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

    Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

    Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..

    See? All the above is in SNT and CK, just minor variations. When you are technique based, instead of concept and principle based, you get screwed up and think its all different...

    But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik? - Yeah, its called a teaching methodology and curriculum...

    What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of? - The pole is based on the Su Lam system as it uses a different power base, stances, and movement. As we know from history and lore, it was appended to WCK.

    Your analogy of dictionary and encyclopedia are not quite correct in this context.

  6. #36
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    Right on the money, Robert
    DMP

  7. #37
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    Thanks David! Nice to see you here!

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    My 95% statement is to reflect on how important the two sets are. WCK is basically Tan, Bong and Fuk. Sure 90% is okay. Statistics like that are just someone's estimation. 95% of statistics is made up on the spot, including my statement.

    As for your questions:

    Well grabbing the back of neck which is done in Wooden Dummy - This is found as the Double Chuen Kiu Sao opening of Chum Kiu

    Gan Sau and Kwun sau technique done on the dummy? - Simply use the outside Fuk and replace the hand with a diagonal Jum Sao, which creates the upper Jaam Sao, and of course, you have Gaun Sao in SNT...Kwun Sao is just a combo of shifting Bong Sao and upper Tan Sao

    Huen Sau cycle done on the dummy? - Huen Sao is in every set of WCK...simply alternate left and right while using CK shifts...

    Grabbing the arm while kicking the shin on the dummy? - Every step is a kick, and you have double Lop Sao in SNT and CK...

    Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

    Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

    Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..

    See? All the above is in SNT and CK, just minor variations. When you are technique based, instead of concept and principle based, you get screwed up and think its all different...

    But there must be reason why their are separate forms and Sup Yee San Sik? - Yeah, its called a teaching methodology and curriculum...

    What system is the Luk Dim Boon based off of? - The pole is based on the Su Lam system as it uses a different power base, stances, and movement. As we know from history and lore, it was appended to WCK.

    Your analogy of dictionary and encyclopedia are not quite correct in this context.


    Again there is alot of what you said I can agree with, However some of your comparisons are not quite kosher.

    Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

    Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

    Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..

    I believe these to bee off the mark. But again thatsd my opinion. When you speak of Double Lan Sau are you referring to SLT???
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    Again there is alot of what you said I can agree with, However some of your comparisons are not quite kosher.


    Quote:
    Right and left hooks done in Bil Gee? - Variations of double Lan Sao with the fist, instead of open hands.

    Grabbing between the legs done in Bil Gee? - Simply bend down while holding hands in a double Wu Sao position...

    Diagonal downward elbow strikes? - A variation of Chum Kiu's Pai Jang, done downwardly..



    I believe these to bee off the mark. But again thatsd my opinion. When you speak of Double Lan Sau are you referring to SLT???

    Kosher or not, that's fine - but now you can see how I see things.

    Yes, Double Lan Sao - from SNT.

    Off the mark, that's your opinion. I think you do not understand WCK yet, that's my opinion. Maybe in another 30 years, you'll think like me.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Kosher or not, that's fine - but now you can see how I see things.

    Yes, Double Lan Sao - from SNT.

    Off the mark, that's your opinion. I think you do not understand WCK yet, that's my opinion. Maybe in another 30 years, you'll think like me.
    I guess I would have to see your applications of the double lan sau?

    Do you mean with both arms cross over one another???


    Also what benefits does the Hong Jong have for a beginner?
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    I guess I would have to see your applications of the double lan sau?

    Do you mean with both arms cross over one another???


    Also what benefits does the Hong Jong have for a beginner?
    Look at the Yip Man SNT, the hands do not cross like in YKS WCK.

    Hong Jong is not for the beginner who has not studied SNT and CK. In this case, without SNT and CK, there is no benefit.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by chusauli View Post
    Hong Jong is not for the beginner who has not studied SNT and CK. In this case, without SNT and CK, there is no benefit.
    Why not? I think Hong Jung training is PERFECT for someone that knows SNT and has started learning to move around a bit in thier training.
    Maybe it's a great way to start to teach a somewhat beginner student ways to move thier whole body once they understand how to use thier individual parts (hands/feet) and how to connect them. They start to learn how the whole body operates and gives them something to practice at home besides just the standing form of SNT. We call this heaven human earth connectivity. Why wait 2 or more years to start learning how to connect the body and use it as a whole unit instead of individual parts?

  13. #43
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    My school certainly doesn't wait until after CK to instroduce students to the dummy, be it wood or air.
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  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    My school certainly doesn't wait until after CK to instroduce students to the dummy, be it wood or air.
    You do realize the Air dummy is Wooden dummy form with out the dummy right?

    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Why not? I think Hong Jung training is PERFECT for someone that knows SNT and has started learning to move around a bit in thier training.
    Maybe it's a great way to start to teach a somewhat beginner student ways to move thier whole body once they understand how to use thier individual parts (hands/feet) and how to connect them. They start to learn how the whole body operates and gives them something to practice at home besides just the standing form of SNT. We call this heaven human earth connectivity. Why wait 2 or more years to start learning how to connect the body and use it as a whole unit instead of individual parts?
    There in lies the difference. Many Traditional Martial Arts take 20 years to learn. One reason is because the first year all you practice is stances. An each additional year you practice something new. But some legends speculate WC was devised to be learn rather quickly. I can see a definite benefit in learning the

    Mook Yan Jong and learning drills on both the Mook Yan Jong and Bamboo dummy.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  15. #45
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    I agree.
    I'm curious why someone with as many years experience as Robert has would say such silly statements as "Hong Jong is not for the beginner who has not studied SNT and CK. In this case, without SNT and CK, there is no benefit".
    That's like saying they need to learn the forms first before they do partnering training..
    I can give someone an air-jong solo form and incorperate it on the dummy as well in the first year to start developing thier footwork, hand work and body unity work early on. No need to even talk about SNT and CK or anything else first before doing that.

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