Shaolin Tong Bi Quan

[LFJ]

Regarding the name, I believe it's been mentioned before, at least in the Nanyuan version the meaning is "通通" (all; entire; complete). So Tongbi means "Full Arm", based on the yellow gibbons' long arm movements.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Regarding the name, I believe it's been mentioned before, at least in the Nanyuan version the meaning is "通通" (all; entire; complete). So Tongbi means "Full Arm", based on the yellow gibbons' long arm movements.

Yep, Gibbons swing with their arms as one long arm from one side through the shoulders to the other side.

[Sal Canzonieri]

I don't really see this in any of the old Tonbi sets though. I see that there is an internal connection through the shoulders so the arms are in effect "Connected"

What you are talking about, I see more in the newer Tong Bei stuff mostly.

The old Tongi, to me, is just Hong Quan(Flooding Fist), with a different name.

Yes, correct. The Xiyuan type of Tongbi Quan is the "old", which is from Hantong's Tongbi, which would be a variant of Hong Quan really. Yellow River area folk and miltiary boxing is all Hong Quan, which is now called Big Swan or Big Vast boxing, the Lubujia stuff, etc.

[Sal Canzonieri]

from my book, some interesting connection between Bai Yufeng and Tongbi Quan:


Bai Yufeng also reviewed other existing Shaolin techniques with Jue Yuan to develop their new system using of Wu Quan – five fists, eight trigrams, and animal mimicking movements. They had incorporated both the Wuxing (五行 - Five elements) movements and Bagua (八卦 - Eight gates / directions / trigrams) stepping patterns from a style called Hua 化 (Transforming) Quan, which came to Shaolin from another temple. Also, according to the tradition of a Shaolin linage (from Sun Yu Feng of Shanghai, a student of Shaolin Monk Yuan Tong), when Venerable Qiu Yue Chan Shi (Bai Yufeng’s religious name) took the position of librarian (Zangzhu 藏主) at Shaolin Monastery, there he found records on older methods like Hua Quan (Transforming Boxing) and revived them, reestablishing an older Shaolin system called Hua Quan at Shaolin.

Legends say that a Zhishan (志善) of Shaolin Monastery created the fighting style called Hua Quan at Shaolin Si. These fighting methods were seen as advancement in combat techniques. But, when Zhishan was killed in a fight, Hua Quan style stopped being practiced at Shaolin. Before the killing of Zhishan, his art were greatly respected at Shaolin, as it had contributed tremendous changes to the training of martial arts at Shaolin Monastery. Before Bai Yufeng’s time, Shaolin Hua Quan used the character 花, which means, ‘blossom’ or ‘flower’ or ‘elegant’. After Bai Yufeng revised these methods, the character was changed to 化 which means “to change into” or ‘transformed’. It can also mean ‘neutralizing’. Bai Yu Feng also made corrections or changes to a number of other sets at Shaolin as well.

Bai Yufeng’s incorporation of this Hua Quan led him to use the Wuxing (5 Elements) movements to create Wu Xing (5 Shapes) postures. Also, he incorporated the Bagua – Eight Direction or Gates stepping patterns. What he created was not just a martial art for self defense, but a complete system that merged this into the health cultivation methods (Neigong) that he already practiced when Jue Yuan met him in Luoyang. But, as it can be seen, these Wu Xing / Bagua concepts already existed at Shaolin before their arrival, and Bai Yufeng was able to find them because of his position as librarian at Shaolin.

Note: According to the book, Zhongzhou Wu Shu Zhi Chang Jia Quan Yu Yuan Xian Tong Bei Quan - 中州武術之萇家拳與猿仙通背拳, there is a style called Yuanxian Tongbei Quan (猿仙通背拳 - Ape Immortal through the Back Boxing) that is from the Yellow River area and is practiced on both sides of the river. The style can be traced to the Xu family in Jiaozuo, according to Dr. Yan’s research, the Xu family Tongbei comes directly from Dong Cheng’s teaching of his Tongbei Quan. Other researchers said that an earlier martial art from this village (before being influenced from Dong’s Tongbei Quan) was once practiced at Shaolin, being the source of Shaolin’s original Tongbi Quan, and that it was brought there during the Southern Song Dynasty era from Jingyin temple, where a monk Hen in the Song dynasty started the style, it was originally named “Jingang-Shi-Hua 化 Quan” - Diamond Warrior (Vajra) Skill Transforming (or Neutralizing) Boxing.

Note: There are sets of Shaolin Xiao Tongbi Quan, Da Tongbi Quan, and other Tongbi Quan set that were reorganized by the Qing era. They were created by merging Xiao Hong Quan, Da Hong Quan, and Ape-Monkey Boxing (Yuan-Hou Quan). Shaolin Nanyuan (South Gate) Tongbi was also created by merging Da Hong Quan and Xiao Tongbi Quan. At that time, the various gates into Shaolin had guards that were taught different styles from each, in case one gate was defeated then the other gates would not be defeated the same way.

This material is very similar to the Shaolin Hua 化 Quan written about above, which also is said to have originated in Jingyin Temple first. Much of the movements of this Yuanxian Tongbei style share many similarities in both technique and shenfa with Shaolin Taizu Chang Quan and Shaolin Pao Chui, suggesting that they are all drawing from a common source.

Via his Shaolin Wu Quan training, perhaps the Wuxing and Bagua stepping patterns (13 movements total) of Hua Quan influenced Dong Cheng’s further development of his Tongbei Quan, making it more Taiji Quan like (until he finally learned the Taoist 13 Gong Rou Shou and completed softening his style)? Jingang is sometimes used as a term interchangeably with Luohan as well, so perhaps this Hua Quan style also influenced the development of Shaolin’s Luohan 13 Gong Rou Quan sets? Finally, General Qi Jiguang mentioned the style in his famous book, “in the boxing family’s dynasty of Song Taizu’s 32 Shi Chang Quan - 三十二势长拳, there is also the Liubu Quan - 六步拳, the Hou Quan - 猴拳 (monkey boxing), the Hua Quan - 化拳 . . .”.

[SHemmati]

Tong BI Quan means through the arms...

Tong BEI Quan is through the back, it merges Nei gong / Qi gong energy that sprials through the body so that striking energy is moved from the ground, coiled like a spring in the legs and then transformed in the waist/hips up the spine and out the arms and hands.

i'm not familiar with "Tong Bei" quan, however, i previously described that this name, as i've heard, refers to backward fighting method of this style. nonetheless, let me describe this Qigong through-the-back Qi transmission in more detail:
________
Qi is produced via successive contraction&relaxation of muscles. since Dan Tian (the lower abdominal balloon) area has the largest amplitude of movement for contraction&relaxation, and also it's contraction&relaxation can be coupled with the breathing exhale&inhale cycle, it is the best and biggest source of Qi in human body. after learning the Qigong way of Dan Tian (abdominal) breathing, the practitioner can go on with seated meditation Qigong method to produce Qi in Dan Tian. after some months, when the fire-like warmth and the jerks, which are the signs of presence of Qi, reach a very good level, Qi can be sent into the Small Circulation (from Dan Tian to perineum, up along spinal cord, to top of head, down through the tongue, which is in tough with the palate, and then down to Dan Tian, again and again), after some other months when small circulation became completed, Qi can move to the arms instead of going up to the head, it also can go down to the legs, this is called Grand Circulation. all the Qi we talked about so far is "Yang Qi," the hard Qi, which is used to harden the body, empower muscles, cause damages in opponents' body, etc. if the flow of Qi to the legs is reversed, i.e., instead of giving Qi to the earth we absorb qi from it, it is "Yin Qi," the soft Qi which can decrease or increase the practitioners weight (yeah, it's real, you can see the videos and documentaries in YouTube!), cause serious damages in opponents internal organs, etc. more advanced men breathe "Yang Qi" down to Dan Tian through the nose, absorb "Yin Qi" up to Dan Tian through the legs, and can project Yin or Yang Qi from each part of their body.
________

so, transmitting Qi through the back is a part of Qigong forcing method, and so is an integral part of every style that makes use of Qi, like Shaolin quan. so, i don't think it's something special about Tong Bei or Tong Bi quan.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

You know, the more I look at all this stuff, the more, and more, and more it's all looking to be the same thing to me.

It's all the same skills, body methods, techniques and fighting strategies just mixed and matched, and remixed and rematched over, and over, and over again by different people as time rolled on.

Once you master all the individual skills, and become fluent in them, is not the style your own at that point?

What we are doing here, is tracing the evolution of the many different forms, that contain a single art.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82mX8T0sLs

Regarding the last developments in the issues of Luohan Quan, Tong Bi Quan and Changhuxinyimen sect. How does the Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui fit in ?



Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Xiyuan Datongbiquan yilu done with 'Wu Gulun' style shenfa.

[SHemmati]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82mX8T0sLs

Regarding the last developments in the issues of Luohan Quan, Tong Bi Quan and Changhuxinyimen sect. How does the Shaolin Luohan Pu Shen Chui fit in ?

Xiyuan Datongbiquan yilu done with 'Wu Gulun' style shenfa.

though i hate Wu Gulun style shenfa, but compared with other performances of this form, some points of this performance will open a new gate to Shaolin shenfa for me.

[Sal Canzonieri]

So, reading some Chinese history books and the book "Chinese Martial Arts" by Peter A. Lorge ( I recommend this english book for a general overview of the martial arts dynasty by dynasty), looking for some clues yesterday, there is something very important to consider.

1. During the Ming dynasty AFTER the restoration that Jue Yuan and Baiyufeng did, by the 1500s, MOST of the Shaolin Quan was taught to the local farmers who tended the land for Shaolin, and the security guards who not only guarded Shaolin but also all the local towns that essentially worked for Shaolin. So, it is the countryside where all the Shaolin Quan wound up in

2. There was NO Shaolin Quan being performed at Shaoin for a long time after the massacre in 1641, NONE, various historical figures wrote about visting there, finding no martial monks there, just religious monks, to when it was rebuilt by 1735. After that date, they brought in recruits to be martial monks. By 1750 it was back to having martial arts, since they did a big demo of it for the then Qigng emperor. That's almost a hundred years that Shaolin had no Quan being practied there at all. And what they did get by 1735 was brought in from the local peoples.

And it is very revealing how they got their martial monks, who weren't religious monks at all, they recruited them from the army and body guard services!

So, let's figure out from that information, the origin of the Shaolin sets we know know to exist.
Luohan 27 (36)/54/108 had to come into being during the 1700s.
Same for the various Tongbi Quan gates.
Same for the Kanjia Quan (which may even be from 1800s!)

Meanwhile the countryside around Shaolin had material that Shaolin lost.

Also, don't forget that in some sections of Henan, they practice whole systems of Shaolin Quan that Shaolin still doesn't do today, like the 13 Claws.

[SHemmati]

great info, as always!
actually you did it by "Meanwhile the countryside around Shaolin had material that Shaolin lost." but to put an emphasis on it, it's said that after every destruction, though many documents have been lost, surviving monks and the area people have took as much documents as they've could to save them. add to this the huge number of lay monks and students at every era, who supposedly have known most the quan. so it's said that after every reconstruction, still there's been a huge amount of Shaolin quan knowledge that had returned back. so that there have always been many styles, knowledge, and documents from ancient times in Shaolin, even until today!

[RenDaHai]

Also, don't forget that in some sections of Henan, they practice whole systems of Shaolin Quan that Shaolin still doesn't do today, like the 13 Claws.

Actually 13 Claws is still alive and kicking.

CuiXiQi still practices this set, and I learned it.

It is not the same as the one outside SongShan, though it is similar. It is ALL claws, except for 1 kick and 1 type of elbow.

I really have to get around to filming all my sets.

[LFJ]

You know Sal, there were a ton of small monasteries sprinkled about in the Song Mountains where a lot of monks continued the practice. Many villages have small monasteries where Shaolin tradition was taken. You can't say because there was no training at the Shaolin Monastery itself at a given point that the material had to have been created at a later time when it was restored, or that there were no monks that trained Shaolinquan anywhere!

Shaolin Monastery brick & mortar ≠ Shaolin tradition or lineage. Research "from afar" often erroneously assumes this.

My lineage, for example, can be traced name by name through the centuries with quite a bit of information on many of the monks. Not so long ago, in 1903 Shi Zhenxu ordained at Longxing Monastery before coming to Shaolin, a tiny monastery in ruins today in his home village. It was built in the Song Dynasty and acted as a 'relay station' for monks crossing the Yellow River. This uninterrupted lineage crosses over different Songshan monasteries like this at different periods where Shaolin teachings always continued.

[LFJ]

I really have to get around to filming all my sets.

I've got my camera set up. Just waiting for you to get back over here.

[RenDaHai]

Hehe,

Yeah, would be good to get it all on film, there is a lot of rare stuff I think you guys would like.

On Temples Near SHaolin, there is actually a name for special ones which were used as a place for Shaolin monks to retreat to during times of trouble. I can't remember how to say it....Hui something guan I think.....

Anyway, there are a bunch of these near to Shaolin, and these are responsible for their own sub sects. If you travel to them you can find bits a pieces of Shaolin Kung Fu and sometimes a system.

There is about a 10km radius from Shaolin that contains so many different sects. Further than that things start to lose a bit of their 'SongShan' Flavour.