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Thread: Karate

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by GoldenBrain View Post
    Dooood! Since sanchin originates from southern white crane, doesn't that make it kung fu fundamentals?

    I like the goju and white crane versions and also use sanchin type breathing and tension to work all of my forms at some point. Along with working forms on different surfaces and slopes I will use several different speeds, sanchin type breathing and tension, taiji type flow, medium speed and really fast and snappy.
    Japanese make a big deal out of nothing.
    Last edited by bawang; 07-18-2013 at 06:34 AM.

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  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    Japanese make a big deal out of nothing.

    you can even do dynamic tension in northern kung fu forms.
    Actually, the Japanese "screwed up" a lot of the Okinawan stuff in Karate.
    Sanchin was one, yes but so was makiwara training.
    Something that was done on a "easy progression" became a "macho test" to see who could screw up their hands the fastest.
    Psalms 144:1
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  3. #483
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Actually, the Japanese "screwed up" a lot of the Okinawan stuff in Karate.
    Sanchin was one, yes but so was makiwara training.
    Something that was done on a "easy progression" became a "macho test" to see who could screw up their hands the fastest.
    i lol every tiem i see those kata competitions where the guy pauses and poses, then visualizes 10 thousand enemies in front of him and his eyes start sparkling

    and lol @ chambering the fist in san chin
    Last edited by bawang; 07-18-2013 at 06:44 AM.

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  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    i lol every tiem i see those kata competitions where the guy pauses and poses, then visualizes 10 thousand enemies in front of him and his eyes start sparkling

    and lol @ chambering the fist in san chin
    Now, lets understand the context of that:
    The phenomena of NOT altering forms is a new thing, in the past people altered forms all the time and the Okinawan were "notorious" for that and Sanchin is a prime example.
    The Okinawan's added the chambered fist to Sanchin to keep in line with their more "fisting oriented" way of fighting.
    They made, in some cases, sanchin more of a "building" form than a "fighting form" when they added/inceased the dynamic tension.
    The full range of motion was viewed as "better' because it developed the strength of the Tzuki over the FULL range.
    Not all did this, Uechi didn't BUT even he made the sanchin "bilateral" as opposed to the tradtional "unilateral" of the WC forms.
    The point is that they took what they learned and made it their own under the context that they taught THEIR MA style.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  5. #485
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    i lol every tiem i see those kata competitions where the guy pauses and poses, then visualizes 10 thousand enemies in front of him and his eyes start sparkling

    and lol @ chambering the fist in san chin
    Be careful - much can be said about skinny men focusing on Yi to the exclusion of Li, with their flowery movements and silken pajamas who utilize forms as the way to demonstrate martial prowess.

  6. #486
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Now, lets understand the context of that:
    The phenomena of NOT altering forms is a new thing, in the past people altered forms all the time and the Okinawan were "notorious" for that and Sanchin is a prime example.
    The Okinawan's added the chambered fist to Sanchin to keep in line with their more "fisting oriented" way of fighting.
    They made, in some cases, sanchin more of a "building" form than a "fighting form" when they added/inceased the dynamic tension.
    The full range of motion was viewed as "better' because it developed the strength of the Tzuki over the FULL range.
    Not all did this, Uechi didn't BUT even he made the sanchin "bilateral" as opposed to the tradtional "unilateral" of the WC forms.
    The point is that they took what they learned and made it their own under the context that they taught THEIR MA style.
    white crane people call karate "betraying the teacher and removing the ancestors"

    that's why every time karate people got to china to find roots they get a good milking lol

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  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    white crane people call karate "betraying the teacher and removing the ancestors"

    that's why every time karate people got to china to find roots they get a good milking lol
    Perhaps, but guess what?
    It is silly to hold on to a view that holds on water in terms of tradition.
    The reality is that there is NO "original" sanjian in ANY WC style that can be PROVEN to be exactly how it was created by the first Master that developed it.
    So, in that regard, what we have is simply hypocrisy.

    Considering that the Okinawans DO give credit to their TCMA teachers AND they OPENLY admit the Changes they did, they are, IMO, at least far more honest than MANY a TCMA "teacher" that tries to pass off their "MA" as THE real MA versions of whatever style it happens to come from.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #488
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    Perhaps, but guess what?
    It is silly to hold on to a view that holds on water in terms of tradition.
    The reality is that there is NO "original" sanjian in ANY WC style that can be PROVEN to be exactly how it was created by the first Master that developed it.
    So, in that regard, what we have is simply hypocrisy.

    Considering that the Okinawans DO give credit to their TCMA teachers AND they OPENLY admit the Changes they did, they are, IMO, at least far more honest than MANY a TCMA "teacher" that tries to pass off their "MA" as THE real MA versions of whatever style it happens to come from.
    im talking about Japanese, not Okinawan. japan is an extreme culture that emphasize conformity. if ur pubic hair is 2cm longer than other people, there is something wrong wit u. karate changed to conform and look like kobudo.

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  9. #489
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    white crane people call karate "betraying the teacher and removing the ancestors"

    that's why every time karate people got to china to find roots they get a good milking lol
    Playing Devil's Advocate, and I do love kung fu, but... again, playing Devil's Advocate - Traditional Hard Core karate maintained a higher level of fighting efficacy through modifying the art by focusing on power and tool development (fundamentals), minimized the total number of forms, and hard sparred. This is my opinion after watching the RTHK video that was posted on the Southern forum. The Goju guys were being compliant and gracious to their White Crane hosts. Goju knew how to leg kick, they kept a tight guard and were able to be offensive. I felt that they would've creamed their White Crane host students had they wanted to and went full out. Just my Opinion based on the video.

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    Playing Devil's Advocate, and I do love kung fu, but... again, playing Devil's Advocate - Traditional Hard Core karate maintained a higher level of fighting efficacy through modifying the art by focusing on power and tool development (fundamentals), minimized the total number of forms, and hard sparred. This is my opinion after watching the RTHK video that was posted on the Southern forum. The Goju guys were being compliant and gracious to their White Crane hosts. Goju knew how to leg kick, they kept a tight guard and were able to be offensive. I felt that they would've creamed their White Crane host students had they wanted to and went full out. Just my Opinion based on the video.
    and a muay thai guy can kick both they asses. fighting ability is not eh point here. whats important is the spirit passed from teacher to student, and in karate its a blank.

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  11. #491
    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    and a muay thai guy can kick both they asses. fighting ability is not eh point here. whats important is the spirit passed from teacher to student, and in karate its a blank.
    I wouldn't go so far as to say that,

    there's as much tradition and spirit in Okinawan Karate as in Kung fu. What I like about Karate that I think can be utilized in Kung Fu (which IMO kung fu is a better martial art) is the focus. There doesn't seem to be the disconnect about what a martial art is and what it's supposed to be for like in some TCMA. Having that attitude would help in TCMA. Simplification, spirit, strength and focus. Sanchin embodies a lot of their attitude. Be strong like a rock against a wave and building sharp focused movements so you can concentrate your force into your tools and ultimately your target. TCMA has this - but it also has ADHD.

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    im talking about Japanese, not Okinawan. japan is an extreme culture that emphasize conformity. if ur pubic hair is 2cm longer than other people, there is something wrong wit u. karate changed to conform and look like kobudo.
    On that, yes, I agree.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  13. #493
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    Quote Originally Posted by MightyB View Post
    I wouldn't go so far as to say that,

    there's as much tradition and spirit in Okinawan Karate as in Kung fu. What I like about Karate that I think can be utilized in Kung Fu (which IMO kung fu is a better martial art) is the focus. There doesn't seem to be the disconnect about what a martial art is and what it's supposed to be for like in some TCMA. Having that attitude would help in TCMA. Simplification, spirit, strength and focus. Sanchin embodies a lot of their attitude. Be strong like a rock against a wave and building sharp focused movements so you can concentrate your force into your tools and ultimately your target. TCMA has this - but it also has ADHD.
    its different ways to sell the same sh1t. acrobatic action hero and stoic samurai zen warrior are both sides of the same coin. martial arts cannot fill the void in your life.

    I have trained karate bro

    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    On that, yes, I agree.
    japan is the only country in the world where immigrants change their LAST name. think about it
    Last edited by bawang; 07-18-2013 at 07:49 AM.

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  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by bawang View Post
    and a muay thai guy can kick both they asses. fighting ability is not eh point here. whats important is the spirit passed from teacher to student, and in karate its a blank.
    I think that it is NOT blank BUT it was "watered down" when it went from Okinawa to Japan, yes.
    The core of Okinawan karate is:
    Sanchin
    Hojo Undo ( strength and conditioning).
    Specialised fists and bunkai ( practical applications in fighting, nowadays based on forms).

    Now look at the typical white crane or southern fist style:
    Core base form ( sanjian, sam boo jin, etc)
    Equipment training to condition and build strength
    Specialised fists and forging and fighting techniques.

    As for Japanese karate:
    Basic techniques
    MANY forms
    Controlled sparring with little to no contact
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  15. #495
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    I think that it is NOT blank BUT it was "watered down" when it went from Okinawa to Japan, yes.
    The core of Okinawan karate is:
    Sanchin
    Hojo Undo ( strength and conditioning).
    Specialised fists and bunkai ( practical applications in fighting, nowadays based on forms).
    its not about watering down, but the denial of roots. like how miao dao used to be called "true transmission Japanese sword"

    when the okinawan guys talk to japan tv its "lost history", behind closed doors they perfectly clear
    Last edited by bawang; 07-18-2013 at 07:58 AM.

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