Why Doesn't TCMA Include Ground Fighting and What are you going to do about it?

[goju]

it takes a very high level of wrestling skill to be able to just stop a shoot. I remember sparring a local amateur mma fighter at trevor whittman's gym. We were working striking with takedowns in the session he was around 5 foot 6 or seven at a 156 pounds and im six foot two and was 210 at the time.

he had a backround in wrestling. I only stuffed one of the little *******s shoots.

[Lebaufist]

So what about all the people who aren't BB? They just get taken down. No sorry this is a fallacy. Superman doesn't exists and no style will make you one. Its not rocket science.

[Lebaufist]

it takes a very high level of wrestling skill to be able to just stop a shoot. I remember sparring a local amateur mma fighter at trevor whittman's gym. We were working striking with takedowns in the session he was around 5 foot 6 or seven at a 156 pounds and im six foot two and was 210 at the time.

he had a backround in wrestling. I only stuffed one of the little *******s shoots.

Isn't that more a reflection of your inability?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Isn't that more a reflection of your inability?

With his reach AND size advantage the fact they he couldn't stop his shoot is an example of the OTHER guys skill in shooting in AND His lack of skill in stopping the shoot.

[Lebaufist]

Yes, but we have no gauge to measure the skill of either. I don't assume that the person I describe knows nothing. I don't assume that the person I describe doesn't have contact sense. But just enough. I don't assume that the person I describe hasn't fought at a lower range. I.E. kickboxers.

Its easy for the grappler in his equation to just keep going without a deterrent.

AFAIC, while on the feet, both are equal. Its who takes whom where after contact that matters to the grappler. I mean, really, its not magic, grapplers, mostly wrestlers(because BJJ takedowns are crap, IMHO) practice takedowns all the time. However, what you do against it doesn't necessarily have to follow wrestling rules. And sometime their own paradigms can be used against them.

Its only a matter of practice. If I train to stop a take down as much as the next guy trains to do a takedown, Then you have a potential problem with that takedown. I don't have to be a BB to do so.

Any technique needs its conditions met in order to work. Gum up a portion of those conditions and you are going to find that what you aimed for is lost.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes, but we have no gauge to measure the skill of either. I don't assume that the person I describe knows nothing. I don't assume that the person I describe doesn't have contact sense. But just enough. I don't assume that the person I describe hasn't fought at a lower range. I.E. kickboxers.

Its easy for the grappler in his equation to just keep going without a deterrent.

AFAIC, while on the feet, both are equal. Its who takes whom where after contact that matters to the grappler. I mean, really, its not magic, grapplers, mostly wrestlers(because BJJ takedowns are crap, IMHO) practice takedowns all the time. However, what you do against it doesn't necessarily have to follow wrestling rules. And sometime their own paradigms can be used against them.

Its only a matter of practice. If I train to stop a take down as much as the next guy trains to do a takedown, Then you have a potential problem with that takedown. I don't have to be a BB to do so.

Any technique needs its conditions met in order to work. Gum up a portion of those conditions and you are going to find that what you aimed for is lost.

Well, if you wanna look at in a "scientific way":
The vast majority of evidence we have from over the last 20 years clearly demonstrates that IF a trained grappler wants to take someone down, they are going down.
That has been empirically proven over and over.
Then there is gravity and the often proven fact that it is far easier to go down than to stay up.

[goju]

The point too was that i wasn't trying to play his game.In fact the whole point of the sparring session was to get used to the mma environment of having to strike on the feet and defend the take down at the same time. I'm very good with my striking and used my jab and foot work to keep him away to some degree but it wasnt enough. A good wrestlers shoot is very fast and on top of that they are freaking strong and grind you down to the mat.. On top of that if you have a wrestler who has adapted himself well to mma he will uses strikes and feints to set up the shoot or wait for you to miss with your strike then go.


it's really something you have to experience first hand. it will change your perspective on alot of things.

[YouKnowWho]

If I train to stop a take down as much as the next guy trains to do a takedown, Then you have a potential problem with that takedown.

It's much easier to train defense than offense. When your opponent shots at your leg, all you need is to drag his head all the way to the ground. How hard can that be? If you spend 3 years in single leg counters and your opponent spends 3 years in single leg, 3 years later, you single leg counter may make your opponent's single leg fail. The problem is even if your opponent cannot take you down with his single leg, you can't take him down with your single leg either. Is it better to develop offense skill that you may use someday than to develop defense skill that you may never use in your life time?

[Drake]

It's much easier to train defense than offense. When your opponent shots at your leg, all you need is to drag his head all the way to the ground. How hard can that be?

Pretty **** hard, actually. If they are decent, and they want you on the ground, you are going to the ground. Like SR says, you are arguing against decades of hard evidence and solid proof.

It's like you don't want to accept this, and are willing to say anything if it means diluting it.

****, man, nobody is saying abandon TCMA. But without a ground game, you are asking for a terrible outcome. Instead you are saying things which have been proven to be inaccurate, and you are rehashing a discussion that has been put to bed already.

[Lebaufist]

Fellas, I'm in the process of moving, so forgive me if I suddenly don't answer your posts. I'll be back to this shortly.

[maxattck]

At the BJJ academy I train at we have a few college level wrestlers, I have been training there for almost 4 years, and I cant stop there shoots. Pretty much no one can. Against the rest of the guys I do fine, I can stuff my fair share. Its jsut they are at of differnt lvl, they simple out class me. So usally against them I make sure end up in a good place, ei guard, half guard ect. Cause I know I am going down

[Lucas]

for a wrestler, not being able to get a shot off and take a guy down is akin to a boxer not hitting past/through/around guard. it happens, but only if someone matches or beats your skill/attributes.

[YouKnowWho]

Pretty **** hard, actually. If they are decent, and they want you on the ground, you are going to the ground. Like SR says, you are arguing against decades of hard evidence and solid proof.

It's like you don't want to accept this, and are willing to say anything if it means diluting it.

****, man, nobody is saying abandon TCMA. But without a ground game, you are asking for a terrible outcome. Instead you are saying things which have been proven to be inaccurate, and you are rehashing a discussion that has been put to bed already.

We had discussed the "double hands single leg" and it's counters many times in this forum before. Let's not go back there again.

As far as "defense is always easier than offense", here is a simple example.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G31h5gbazwU

Is it easier for you to attack that bear, or is it easier for you to wait for that bear to attack you? When you attack, you can only use your own force. You have nothing to work with. When your opponent is gone, you will meet the emptiness. When your oponent attacks you, you can borrow his force, and you have somthing to work with. Your force plus your opponent's force is always greater than your own force.

[YouKnowWho]

for a wrestler, not being able to get a shot off and take a guy down is akin to a boxer not hitting past/through/around guard. it happens, but only if someone matches or beats your skill/attributes.

The Mongolian wrestling only has one round with no time limitation. Sometime a match can last for over an hour and nobody can take the other down.

[Lucas]

those must be some really well evened out wrestlers!!