Lama Pai, Hop Gar, Bak Hok

[Gru Bianca]

That depends on who your teachers are and your own effort. Not hope, just hard work, and knowledgeable teachers.

That's correct, that's why I said fat hope,....cause there are no more knowledgeable teachers that know the entire system already...... only if lucky a couple of them....
Not talking about the quality some more......

Merry Christmas

[CharlesDaCosta]

That's correct, that's why I said fat hope,....cause there are no more knowledgeable teachers that know the entire system already...... only if lucky a couple of them....
Not talking about the quality some more......

Merry Christmas

OK, I do understand your problem. But for me it is just a lot of hard work.

[Gru Bianca]

OK, I do understand your problem. But for me it is just a lot of hard work.

No, you do not understand.... that's not a problem I have........

[CharlesDaCosta]

No, you do not understand.... that's not a problem I have........

You are right, I don't!!

[jdhowland]

That's correct, that's why I said fat hope,....cause there are no more knowledgeable teachers that know the entire system already...... only if lucky a couple of them....
Not talking about the quality some more......

Right. "The entire system" had grown to more than 64 Pak Hok sets by the time Ng Siu Jung died. No one person had them all.

I think everyone understood that the system had become too big for its own good. The most important stuff was passed on.

[Gru Bianca]

Right. "The entire system" had grown to more than 64 Pak Hok sets by the time Ng Siu Jung died. No one person had them all.

I think everyone understood that the system had become too big for its own good. The most important stuff was passed on.

I agree with you.

[CharlesDaCosta]

Right. "The entire system" had grown to more than 64 Pak Hok sets by the time Ng Siu Jung died. No one person had them all.

I think everyone understood that the system had become too big for its own good. The most important stuff was passed on.

Among the people that know the system, the talk is not sets, it is Techniques.

I have been connected to three to 4 different students of Ng (or grandmasters to some) and none of their students I have met ever claims 64 routines in their lines. I have herd of one claiming 64 techniques!

But I do not claim to know every thing so .....

[jdhowland]

[QUOTE=CharlesDaCosta: I have been connected to three to 4 different students of Ng (or grandmasters to some) and none of their students I have met ever claims 64 routines in their lines. I have herd of one claiming 64 techniques!.....[/QUOTE]

Didn't mean to imply that Ng prescribed this many sets to anyone as a proper representation of his system--just that he knew that many and taught some of them. When the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Federation came up with 24 standardized sets they were trying to preserve a good portion of this material, but it was still too much for today's students. I see their work as more of a conservation effort for historical purposes than a workable system.

My teacher learned directly from Ng Siu Jung, and also from Au Wing Nin. He never taught more than 14 Pak Hok sets. There is a huge disparity in the number of sets taught among various "Lama" schools, from none to thirty-plus. The approach you take depends on your values. I understand the desire to preserve an art as well as the need to pare it down for practical use. When we asked my teacher to share his opinion of who was "good" we would suggest a name and he would sometimes reply, "He teaches sets." This didn't sound like a put-down but seemed to imply that the man was not considered a fighter.

[CharlesDaCosta]

... Ng ... knew ... many and taught some of them. When the Hong Kong White Crane Athletic Federation came up with 24 standardized sets they were trying to preserve a good portion of this material, but it was still too much for today's students. I see their work as more of a conservation effort for historical purposes than a workable system.

... There is a huge disparity in the number of sets taught among various "Lama" schools, from none to thirty-plus. The approach you take depends on your values. I understand the desire to preserve an art as well as the need to pare it down for practical use.

When we asked my teacher ... reply, "He teaches sets." This didn't sound like a put-down but seemed to imply that the man was not considered a fighter.

I heard all this too. Ng like most back then was collecting, even from other systems like HG, and inventing new ones to counter what he saw in others.

And the Standard 24 sets is what I have been trying to learn (I assume they contain all the Pak Hok Techniques). And I have herd of PH teacher who have even more sets.

I have also herd of the "fighter or Performer" label. So I understood where you were coming from, and agree with you. I just enjoyed the discussion.

I even have a "fat hope" to deal with - My teacher is dissatisfied with the way I preform and I am starting to forget, so he told all of his brothers to stop teaching me new routines; So, I have to figure out how to convince them to continue. But he did open a door for me to learn from another line so I am also a little confused :-][.

Now, my motivation:

The Secrets in Pak Hok are the techniques or basics, some would say. If you look at all the routines, you will find that they are just repeating techniques with small modifications.

I want to make sure I learn all the techniques and the different ways they should be executed. If there is one, two or three routines with all the techniques and the different ways they should be executed, I would stop and just learn them. No one is alluding to this being a possibility, so I want to collect what is really important and put it in one routine and drop all the others (At least for my training). And no, I am not a fighter, at least not until I am fighting!

[chusauli]

Does any one know the differences in cts lama vs. Chen Keun Ng lama? The form I learned from lama looks similar but different compared to what I have seen on clips of ctc students.

Is there any footage of Chan Kuen Ng or students doing sets available? I'd like to see.

[lkfmdc]

CTS's lama pai "lineage" is not your standard lineage... he had something like 18 or 19 different tibetan lineage teachers. He studied what was at his time called lama pai, hop ga and Pak hok... and different versions of each. There are what I call "linear" versions of pak hok, then there is pak hok with the 7 star footwork. There is the Deng family hop ga, then there are other schools. CTS had lama pai from manchuria, we are not sure it is related to Wong Yan Lam at all ?? (??).

Some people call Chan Kuen Ng's lineage "hop ga" by the way

[Gru Bianca]

CTS's lama pai "lineage" is not your standard lineage... he had something like 18 or 19 different tibetan lineage teachers. He studied what was at his time called lama pai, hop ga and Pak hok... and different versions of each. There are what I call "linear" versions of pak hok, then there is pak hok with the 7 star footwork. There is the Deng family hop ga, then there are other schools. CTS had lama pai from manchuria, we are not sure it is related to Wong Yan Lam at all ?? (??).

Some people call Chan Kuen Ng's lineage "hop ga" by the way

Mr. Ross,

do you have any idea on who were the Lama Pai teachers of Au Wing Nam before he became a NgSiu Chung students?

Thanks

[CharlesDaCosta]

CTS's lama pai "lineage" is not your standard lineage... he had something like 18 or 19 different tibetan lineage teachers. He studied what was at his time called lama pai, hop ga and Pak hok... and different versions of each. There are what I call "linear" versions of pak hok, then there is pak hok with the 7 star footwork. There is the Deng family hop ga, then there are other schools. CTS had lama pai from manchuria, we are not sure it is related to Wong Yan Lam at all ?? (??).

Some people call Chan Kuen Ng's lineage "hop ga" by the way

What was that principle about circles: "Follow, Reverse, Come off, ..." I can't remember the rest?

[Gru Bianca]

I guess it's tough to really say exactly how many sets there are in Pak Hok Pai; it is true that more often then not the same techniques are repeated been those the core techniques, however, based on what I've seen, each set presents a little piece of additional information that wasn't there before, been it a different footwork, a different combo, a new technique etc..etc... which I think would just lead to a new way of interpreting what was already acquired.
Some people are very smart (usually those that leave a sign behind long after they are gone) and quick to elaborate and find important keys way before certain inputs are given, many others are not and that's why I think be exposed to different sets might be useful to open and broaden the mind.

Also another part of the system that I believe is equally important as the basic techniques are are the methods of "strength and power" generation, the propaedeutical exercises that should go along with the sets.

Just a thought.

Regards

[CharlesDaCosta]

... based on what I've seen, each set presents a little piece of additional information that wasn't there before, be it: a different footwork, a different combo, a new technique etc..etc...

which I think would just lead to a new way of interpreting what was already acquired.

Some people are very smart ... and quick to elaborate and find important keys way before certain inputs are given, many others are not and that's why I think be exposed to different sets might be useful to open and broaden the mind.

Also another part of the system that I believe is equally important as the basic techniques are are the methods of "strength and power" generation, the propaedeutical exercises that should go along with the sets.

" ... a new way of interpreting what was already acquired."

Yes if I had just one routine, I would practice it several ways, each way would be based on one of our characteristics or principles. Fore example, we have 4 characteristics that have evolved into principles that define the way we execute our techniques:

• Fast and Furious (continuous striking)
• Targeted and Powerful (single strike kill is the goal)
• Seizing and Paralyzing (grabbing)
• Soft and Flexible (Empty and Evasive)
• Low and High coordinate planes
• Attack limb or truck (including head & neck)
• Attack both limb and truck at the same time

I would do the one routine different ways, based on the above list. This would eliminate the need for having a different routine for each principle and principle deviations. Thus putting less strain on the memory and improving/shorting the time it will take to make the techniques instinctive (better approach for fighters).

There are certain technique combos that are considered core (e.g., pek-sau, dan-cup, bean-chow, dow-pow, etc.) they would have to be present.

May be we should use the rest of this thread to try to iron out what are the core techniques and principles, and how they could be put into a single routine.