Mixing Wing Chun with a grappling style?

**anerlich** · 06-04-2009, 10:34 PM

But it's a grappling that is alive and flowing by utilizing what we refer to as CONTACT CONTROL, and not actual dead hand fully committed grappling.

What do you mean by "dead hand" in this context? Is it like a "death grip", perhaps?

I read the HFY108 thread you quoted, there was some good though, not revolutionary or revelatory, thoughts presented there, but it didn't explain the distinction you make here.

I wouldn't describe wrestlers as necessarily having "dead hands", myself. And I've met no decent ones that aren't VERY "alive and flowing".

**duende** · 06-04-2009, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by anerlich

What do you mean by "dead hand" in this context? Is it like a "death grip", perhaps?

I read the HFY108 thread you quoted, there was some good though, not revolutionary or revelatory, thoughts presented there, but it didn't explain the distinction you make here.

I wouldn't describe wrestlers as necessarily having "dead hands", myself. And I've met no decent ones that aren't VERY "alive and flowing".

Death Grip? Come on.. that's not up to par for the famous Anerlich wit. Or maybe it is.

No. First off, dead hand is not an insult, And of course good wrestlers are alive and flowing. I'm talking about point of contact and how it is controlled. Meaning Contact Control .

Dead hand in this situation refers to the condition where your hand is fully committed solely to holding on to it's point of contact on your opponent.

Live hand means that you use your hand to control/limit direction of movement and space but do not commit it or "tie it down" to your opponents hand or point of contact. Like fully gripping with your fingers and thumb for example. Instead, live hand is kept free in motion. Thereby allowing it to still be free to slip (while maintaining contact and influencing) stick, or strike.

Admittedly, sometimes dead-hand is the only solution, however live hand is what is sought out.

**t_niehoff** · 06-05-2009, 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by Eric_H

So your point is to control the person before you hit. That isn't any different from establishing proper range and facing, those are what give you the control.

"Proper range and facing" is NOT control. Controlling your opponent means he can't do anything productive except try to get out of your control. Being in position to strike, even to hit and not be hit (like being behind a person) isn't the same thing as being able to control that person. Controlling your opponent will give you the opportunity to hit, but being able to hit doesn't mean you have control.

That still doesn't mean that chi sao = grappling as you said before.

Grappling is being in contact and trying to physically manipulate your opponent to reach your objective. That's what wrestlers do, that's what judoka do, that's what sumo wrestlers do,and that's what we do in WCK -- except we add strikesto the mix. Chi sao is similar to a wreslter's handfighting.

**t_niehoff** · 06-05-2009, 05:38 AM

Originally Posted by duende

This is out of line Terrence and you know it. YOU want to back this statement up?? Come to San Francisco, and I will personally take you for a walk.

Oh, the deadly internet challenge! If I ever visit San Francisco and want to waste some time with anyone in HFY, it would be to stop by and play with Garrett.

Don't think for one second you can hide behind all your other KF brother's achievements!

I'm not hiding at all. I just want it clear that I don't give a rat's ass about the HFY perspective, and now you know why I don't. So you and all your fellow cultmembers can stop trying to share your fantasy perspectivewith me.

As for your TWC nonsense, it has not only been discussed and debated to death, but anyone who really cared about it would actually take the time to come see for themselves.

I did see for myself. I saw Garrett in person. But you are correct, that if anyone is interested they should go and see for themselves. However, I can't begin to imagine why anyone except someone seeking fantasy would be interested to see for themselves.

Like the multitudes of WC'rs from other schools who already have.

Which proves what? That there are lots of suckers out there? That there arelots of gullible people? That some people want to believe comic book martial art fantasies? OK, I concede the point.

YOU on the other hand just talk SH1T. And hide from potential sparring partners and tell them instead to go train MUAY THAI.

Get real Terrence. Life is too short for this crap.

You hate HFY. We get it. Stop your beatchin, and frickin' put us on your ignore list already.

I don't hate HFY, I just think there is a lot of things wrong with WCK and TCMA as a whole. And I think Garrett has taken everything that is wrong and put it into his "system".

I'll gladly ignore you. Don't respond to my posts and I'll ignore you. I don't want anything to do with your unhealthy group. But when you fellows enter into I conversastion I'm having, I won't ignore you.

As for this thread. My opinion is that WC does contain stand-up grappling. As in Kum Na/Chi Na. But it's a grappling that is alive and flowing by utilizing what we refer to as CONTACT CONTROL, and not actual dead hand fully committed grappling.

This is the core difference between anti-grappling, and counter grappling.

For more info read:

http://www.hfy108.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2346

As for mixing in grappling with WC. I believe you can mix in whatever you like. Once you understand WC's core body mechanics, to varying degrees, any outside technique and applications can be incorporated successfully.

However I do not think I'd ever go to a WC school that is trying also to be a MMA school to learn Jiu Jitsu. I'd rather just go straight to the source and learn the real deal. But hey... that's just me.

"Go to the source and learn from the real deal." LOL! You guys are straight out of a comic book.

**m1k3** · 06-05-2009, 06:04 AM

Originally Posted by duende

Death Grip? Come on.. that's not up to par for the famous Anerlich wit. Or maybe it is.

No. First off, dead hand is not an insult, And of course good wrestlers are alive and flowing. I'm talking about point of contact and how it is controlled. Meaning Contact Control .

Dead hand in this situation refers to the condition where your hand is fully committed solely to holding on to it's point of contact on your opponent.

Live hand means that you use your hand to control/limit direction of movement and space but do not commit it or "tie it down" to your opponents hand or point of contact. Like fully gripping with your fingers and thumb for example. Instead, live hand is kept free in motion. Thereby allowing it to still be free to slip (while maintaining contact and influencing) stick, or strike.

Admittedly, sometimes dead-hand is the only solution, however live hand is what is sought out.

A good grappler doesn't "dead hand", ever. If you know anything about hand and grip fighting you would know that your grips are a bridge to off balancing, a take down or a throw, they are not an end in and of themselves.

Even in MT the clinch is a bridge to a wide variety of strikes and will be abandoned the moment it is no longer an advantage.

To hang on to a grip or a clinch when it is not working is the sign of a beginner.

**duende** · 06-05-2009, 06:28 AM