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Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I think most WCK lineages have Kiu Sau drills and exercises, etc. I am saying they are there for a reason,
    Alan gave the reason for the drills and why they aren't applied literally. What don't you understand?

  2. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Actually I think the term I was referring to is "hard contact sparring". You kind of avoided talking about the level of contact. We kind of saw the problems with other types of sparring in all the PB clips and fiasco with Obasi controlling him. Someone can slap fight all day long and never learn the subtle differences that are involved with going harder.
    I said earlier that we go light with no protection, and harder with protection (gloves, gum shield and a box). We don't compete in open competitions, so I don't know what you mean and/or are asking me. Semi-contact, full contact? When gloved up we hit hard - full power in the sense we are trying to KO the other guy? No. There's no one with medical training on hand, so we keep things sensible.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    I'm not doing the "sport vs. street" argument with you.
    Okay. All I am saying is that both take you out of your comfort zone - in my opinion someone using WT against two real attackers is out of everyone's comfort zone.


    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    So are you saying you got dropped on your head a lot as a kid? I mean, since we are paraphrasing questions.
    I'm asking a genuine question. You say you train Kiu Sau as part of a three-component platform. I am asking do you train this for use, or are you saying that it doesn't work. What do you train in Kiu Sau, and what is it for?

    You could play nice and answer, as I am trying to answer your questions, or you could simply make dumb statements about me being dropped on my head


    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    "The art" does not "look to use chi kiu rather than lei kiu whenever it can". What you are describing in the art is a term called "chasing hands". Or actually, you are a Leung Ting guy. maybe that is what your art looks to do.
    I think I made it pretty clear what the art looks to do, as I have learned it. Strike and control at the same time, as we see the art as focussing on Chi Kiu, something developed by various things, including Kiu Sau.

    I don't see how that relates to chasing hands.

    You asked earlier what my definition of Kiu Sau was. Why not tell me how you in HFY train Kiu Sau, what it involves and what it develops and tell me how that fits into the general HFY method and its use in application?

    You ask a lot, but don't offer much back in return. C'mon, it's a forum and meant for sharing - why not tell us. (note: I haven't made any comments about you being dropped as a child, despite the fact I think you are simply looking for a rise)

  3. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Alan gave the reason for the drills and why they aren't applied literally. What don't you understand?
    Alan said "When your in a fight you are not trying to do a drill and look good. You are trying to win. Your training is done. Its time to dig in and get the job done using the skills you have," and he said that his guys train CSLWC for the street and for the ring and that is the same (I think that is what he said). He also said his guys take the structure from their training into the ring.


    I don't train drills to "look good", but I agree that drills are about attributes.

    My issue (or what I don't understand), is why a person trains drills that are about control from bridging, stripping down bridges, moving around bridges, linking and delinking from contact, etc, drills that fit into their system's use of Kiu Sau related work... see the list of ideas/training methods from Robert Chu that I posted...

    ...and then in the ring look to fight (in their stand up game) as though they basing almost all of that actual fighting on Lei Kiu, rather than Chi Kiu (which is the very thing they have been training in those said Kiu Sau drills).

  4. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post

    So are you saying you got dropped on your head a lot as a kid? I mean, since we are paraphrasing questions.



    "The art" does not "look to use chi kiu rather than lei kiu whenever it can". What you are describing in the art is a term called "chasing hands".

    Or actually, you are a Leung Ting guy. maybe that is what your art looks to do.
    You don't like what BPWT has to say so you resort to this? One WCK strategy, and this is only one, and actually one I've seen described by Robert Chu....is this. Engage the opponent and try to knock the heck out of him. If he puts up an obstruction (tries to defend), then use that contact to bridge in and control his arms moving in to disrupt his balance and break his structure so that you can more easily strike him at will. This strategy does not include standing back and exchanging punches in a boxing scenario. You can't control anything in a tit for tat exchange of punches. I think this is what BPWT is talking about. This is a strategy suited for a street encounter, but not necessarily a ring bout or a give and take session of sparring. With this strategy when you engage an opponent you don't stop until he is down, and the goal is to put him down quickly. Granted, if not successful the first time you may have to step back and re-engage and try again. My point is that this is at least one key strategy in WCK that I have seen, and this strategy is not a boxing exchange of punches.

  5. #140
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    @Bpwt

    As you seem to be keen at pointing out what you see is wrong with the Chu Sau Lei clips, can you enlighten me with what controlling/bridging/sticking method the Leung ting "fighter" is using in the clip below. It starts at 7:18

    http://youtu.be/czDuH0R73kg

    The only bridge contact I see is his chin hitting the other guys fist...

  6. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    @Bpwt
    ...As you seem to be keen at pointing out what you see is wrong with the Chu Sau Lei clips, can you enlighten me with what controlling/bridging/sticking method the Leung ting "fighter"
    Actually, according to the announcer, that guy came from Duncan Leung's group, not Leung Ting, and his problem (like some of LT's guys as well) seemed to be that he didn't have a clue about how to deal with a really strong grappler. We never did get to see how his striking game would have played out.

    Anyway, personally I think we all benefit from taking a broad view of what Wing Chun is and looks like. My primary Wing Chun background is with LT. I also have been training with Rene Latosa and also Martin Torres in Escrima for a long time. Now I may not see, but I feel a lot of WC concepts in the Escrima I've trained. And it in competition it looks like MMA too. Now I'm not a competitor. But even from the stands, I like to see our guys win. And as far as looks go, nobody looks good when they're tapping out!
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  7. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    Actually, according to the announcer, that guy came from Duncan Leung's group, not Leung Ting, and his problem (like some of LT's guys as well) seemed to be that he didn't have a clue about how to deal with a really strong grappler. We never did get to see how his striking game would have played out.

    Anyway, personally I think we all benefit from taking a broad view of what Wing Chun is and looks like. My primary Wing Chun background is with LT. I also have been training with Rene Latosa and also Martin Torres in Escrima for a long time. Now I may not see, but I feel a lot of WC concepts in the Escrima I've trained. And it in competition it looks like MMA too. Now I'm not a competitor. But even from the stands, I like to see our guys win. And as far as looks go, nobody looks good when they're tapping out!
    No Steve, check at 7:18 like Chris mentioned. The clip starts out with Steve Faulkner from Duncan Leung's school, but it is a compilation clip and at the 7:18 mark is the Leung Ting guy. But I'll take this opportunity to point out that Steve Faulkner had some level of success in MMA years ago, and he did recognizable Wing Chun. You can't see it in this clip because he was taken down so quickly and Igor was a beast. But other clips I have seen of him were recognizable as Wing Chun.

  8. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by chris bougeard View Post
    @Bpwt

    As you seem to be keen at pointing out what you see is wrong with the Chu Sau Lei clips, can you enlighten me with what controlling/bridging/sticking method the Leung ting "fighter" is using in the clip below. It starts at 7:18

    http://youtu.be/czDuH0R73kg

    The only bridge contact I see is his chin hitting the other guys fist...
    As I said before, I haven't seen anyone fighting with WCK (from any lineage) in a MMA contest that, to me, looked like good WC/WT/VT. I listed a few things that might contribute to this. Feel free to post more clips like this if you like, but my point remains. Whatever the lineage, we typically see poor WCK.

    For the particular person in the clip you reference, there are many things wrong (obvious inexperience and nerves, a low guard inviting the punch, stance and footwork, etc). In most cases we simply see inexperienced WCK guys a) not applying the system the way they train it, b) getting outclassed.

    In Alan's clip I see his fighter not using WCK as I see it trained in Alan's training clips (I already explained what I mean by this), but Alan's guy does outclass the other guy regardless, and wins (deservedly). I applaud the win - I just didn't see him using Wing Chun (as I understand it) to get the win.



    A minor point, but I add it for clarification so you know where I stand on this; the WT guy eating the fist looks like an EWTO student. Even if he'd done better, I don't regard this as LT Wing Tsun, and I don't train in the EWTO or use their interpretation of Keith Kernspecht's system.

  9. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    No Steve, check at 7:18 like Chris mentioned. The clip starts out with Steve Faulkner from Duncan Leung's school, but it is a compilation clip and at the 7:18 mark is the Leung Ting guy. But I'll take this opportunity to point out that Steve Faulkner had some level of success in MMA years ago, and he did recognizable Wing Chun. You can't see it in this clip because he was taken down so quickly and Igor was a beast. But other clips I have seen of him were recognizable as Wing Chun.
    Thanks for the clarification. BTW I looked on youtube for other clips of Falkner fighting and didn't find anything. If you can find any good videos please post them. --Steve
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  10. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grumblegeezer View Post
    Thanks for the clarification. BTW I looked on youtube for other clips of Falkner fighting and didn't find anything. If you can find any good videos please post them. --Steve
    I looked as well and couldn't find the older ones I remember seeing. They must have been taken down. That's been awhile back. But Faulkner made it to that "Extreme Fighting Championship" venue where we see him lose to Igor. So he had to have had some success in MMA in the past or he wouldn't have been invited! His problem was that his ground game sucked and you can't get anywhere in MMA if you can't fight on the ground.
    Last edited by KPM; 04-20-2014 at 09:56 AM.

  11. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    You don't like what BPWT has to say so you resort to this? One WCK strategy, and this is only one, and actually one I've seen described by Robert Chu....is this. Engage the opponent and try to knock the heck out of him. If he puts up an obstruction (tries to defend), then use that contact to bridge in and control his arms moving in to disrupt his balance and break his structure so that you can more easily strike him at will. This strategy does not include standing back and exchanging punches in a boxing scenario. You can't control anything in a tit for tat exchange of punches. I think this is what BPWT is talking about. This is a strategy suited for a street encounter, but not necessarily a ring bout or a give and take session of sparring. With this strategy when you engage an opponent you don't stop until he is down, and the goal is to put him down quickly. Granted, if not successful the first time you may have to step back and re-engage and try again. My point is that this is at least one key strategy in WCK that I have seen, and this strategy is not a boxing exchange of punches.
    Ironically, here is a great clip of Alan talking about exactly what I mention above:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3V...=youtube_gdata

    This is what we don't see in the clip of Josh. This is what BPWT has been talking about. Notice that Alan is standing very upright, not leaning forward, not in the MMA stance we see Josh taking in the clip. This is good Wing Chun.

  12. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    Ironically, here is a great clip of Alan talking about exactly what I mention above:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iM3V...=youtube_gdata

    This is what we don't see in the clip of Josh. This is what BPWT has been talking about. Notice that Alan is standing very upright, not leaning forward, not in the MMA stance we see Josh taking in the clip. This is good Wing Chun.
    If Alan's guys show some of that in MMA and keep winning, he'll be the biggest "martial hero" in WC since Bruce Lee. Every WC guy I know would recognize that as WC, regardless of lineage. If Alan can get wins with stuff that looks like that, he can go on the seminar circuit and retire young as a rich man.

    P.S. I'd be taking that seminar when he came to the states.
    "No contaban con mi astucia!" --el Chapulin Colorado

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  13. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by KPM View Post
    I'll take this opportunity to point out that Steve Faulkner had some level of success in MMA years ago, and he did recognizable Wing Chun. You can't see it in this clip because he was taken down so quickly and Igor was a beast. But other clips I have seen of him were recognizable as Wing Chun.
    Keith,
    Can you please post the other clips of Steve Faulkner's fights, I know that he had some other fights before extreme fighting but I never seen them or known them to exists on the net.

    where did you seen them was it on Youtube or some other video hosting site? and what key words did you enter for them to come up?
    Last edited by kung fu fighter; 04-20-2014 at 08:20 PM.

  14. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by kung fu fighter View Post
    Keith,
    Can you please post the other clips of Steve Faulkner's fights, I know that he had some other fights before extreme fighting but I never seen them or known them to exists on the net.

    where did you seen them was it on Youtube or some other video hosting site? and what key words did you enter for them to come up?
    Like I said above, I looked but couldn't find them again. It could be it was on Duncan Leung's old website.

  15. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I said earlier that we go light with no protection, and harder with protection (gloves, gum shield and a box). We don't compete in open competitions, so I don't know what you mean and/or are asking me. Semi-contact, full contact? When gloved up we hit hard - full power in the sense we are trying to KO the other guy? No. There's no one with medical training on hand, so we keep things sensible.
    So when you go harder you don't notice any difference in levels of chaos, holding form, scrambling, etc? It all looks exactly like lighter drills?

    I'm asking a genuine question. You say you train Kiu Sau as part of a three-component platform. I am asking do you train this for use, or are you saying that it doesn't work. What do you train in Kiu Sau, and what is it for?
    It didn't sound to me like you were asking a genuine question. It sounded to me like you were twisting what I said around a bit and baiting me. Yes, trained as a 3 part platform. Savi explains it in intricate detail in another thread. Trained for use. Yes it works. Kiu sau as trained protects your upper gate and provides structural integrity among other things. Again Savi has much more detail in his writeup about the 3 platforms of HFY chi sau.

    You could play nice and answer, as I am trying to answer your questions, or you could simply make dumb statements about me being dropped on my head
    And you can keep playing the victim here and pretending like you are not baiting people. I see you doing it to others too. Perhaps that is a result of being dropped on your head, perhaps not. The evidence remains to be seen.

    I think I made it pretty clear what the art looks to do, as I have learned it. Strike and control at the same time, as we see the art as focussing on Chi Kiu, something developed by various things, including Kiu Sau.
    How do you train kiu sau? I know I've asked this before.

    I don't see how that relates to chasing hands.
    If your strategy is to seek a bridge to control it first, then your opponent can present you a false bridge to bait you. Then let it collapse and attack from another front. What you control is centerline.

    You asked earlier what my definition of Kiu Sau was. Why not tell me how you in HFY train Kiu Sau, what it involves and what it develops and tell me how that fits into the general HFY method and its use in application?
    See Savi's post on the HFY history thread. that explains more detail.

    You ask a lot, but don't offer much back in return. C'mon, it's a forum and meant for sharing - why not tell us. (note: I haven't made any comments about you being dropped as a child, despite the fact I think you are simply looking for a rise)
    What do you want from me? I mean its no skin off my nose if you don't want to explain Leung Ting's Kiu sau methods. I don't know anywhere else there's a writeup on them either, do you? And the only reason they are being discussed is due to your criticism of the fighter not "looking like wing chun" right? Because he didn't seek to bridge before punching?

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