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Thread: Best Wing Chun KO in MMA - Iron Wolves Fighter Chu Sau Lei Wing Chun

  1. #256
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    I don't think we should try explain each other's systems based on our own. The CSLWC guys have been explaining theirs in multiple ways. So I have no place or reason to try to explain it to you.

    I haven't studied those styles.
    You, sir, are a diplomat.

  2. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Well, firstly... I would like to understand how those things fit into their system. Plain and simple. Why would they cover and take hits to the hands/gloves? Why would they lean forward with their head down in this way? Why would they lunge forward and strike, with weight forward and often have body going one way and the strike the other? How does that fit into their system? (I ask as I have seen nothing like this from any other Wing Chun lineage)
    Let me turn it around why not do those things? Why is that not wing chun?

    Secondly, if they can explain why they do it (even though Alan shows very different and contradictory things in his other videos - as KPM just referenced), can they explain where this comes from: Yuen Kay San, Hawkins Cheung or the Gulao Wing Chun lineage?
    Wing chun like boxing has lots of contradictions in what and how things are taught. There are a number of reasons for this. Part of the reason relates to the level being taught. As a beginner you may be told one thing or taught to do things one way and this may change as you get better. Another is context. Another is there is often more than one way to do things.

    Training is not application. What most people call application is not application. Application is actually sparring or fighting.

    Saying "it comes from CSL Wing Chun" is not very informative, as CSL Wing Chun came from Robert Chu who studied the YKS, HC and Gulao methods.

    This would be a great start to being clearer.
    I heard Andreas Hoffman once asked at a seminar he was teaching where a move he just performed was in the form and he said it's not in the form it's application.

  3. #258
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    No one disputes that. Alan's guys win fights. We all congratulated the fighter for his win.

    The question is not 'are they good?', the question is 'what do they use?'

    Their art comes from Robert Chu, who studied Yuen Kay San, Hawkins Cheung and Gulao Wing Chun. I am asking how their methods come from those lines - because the clip of Alan's fighters doing light sparring was... well... see the last few pages.
    No that's not the question. They train wing chun as their stand up so they use wing chun.

    No the art does not come from Chu. Chu did not create wing chun. He like YKS and H Cheung and Yip organized his teaching of wing chun but it is all wing chun. The training is not the art.

  4. #259
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    CSL Wing Chun came from Robert Chu who studied the YKS, HC and Gulao methods.
    Do we have any live sparring or fighting clips from these 3 that we can compare to CSLWC?

  5. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    No that's not the question.
    It very much is.

    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    They train wing chun as their stand up so they use wing chun.
    The point is that much of what they do seems to go against most of the Wing Chun we are familiar with - which is why we ask for some details to try and understand it. Ducking and Weaving is found in other MAs, but I haven't seen it taught in Wing Chun before. Doesn't mean it is bad, just means I want to know where in their WCK background this came from, or did they add it in.

    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    No the art does not come from Chu. Chu did not create wing chun. He like YKS and H Cheung and Yip organized his teaching of wing chun but it is all wing chun.
    CSL Wing Chun is Robert Chu's system - a system, if I am not making a mistake, he teaches based on what he has learned from studying with the people we've just mentioned.

    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    The training is not the art.
    Ironically....

    To be honest, tc101, I'd be happy to debate all this stuff with you - but I'd rather first hear from Chris to see if he's willing to give some more info about what we've asked.

  6. #261
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    Do we have any live sparring or fighting clips from these 3 that we can compare to CSLWC?
    I'd be happy to just see a picture of someone from one of these lines ducking punches, and punching with their chin tucked and their head down as they lunge forward, etc.

    Even a picture would be enough for me to admit that maybe they are right and I am wrong.

  7. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I'd be happy to just see a picture of someone from one of these lines ducking punches, and punching with their chin tucked and their head down as they lunge forward, etc.

    Even a picture would be enough for me to admit that maybe they are right and I am wrong.
    Well, I'd say if they aren't sparring and fighting with it in the current generation, then it doesn't matter and maybe it's time Wing Chun moves forward with good systems that are proving their methods effective against other trained fighters...

  8. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    I'd be happy to just see a picture of someone from one of these lines ducking punches, and punching with their chin tucked and their head down as they lunge forward, etc.
    By the way, Twenty asked a good question: "Let me turn it around why not do those things? Why is that not wing chun?"

    Would you rather they keep their head high and leaning back? There's probably a reason that doesn't happen in the cage...

  9. #264
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Fair enough.



    If people are, on the whole, happy with this, then again... fair enough.



    Okay.



    I know you keep saying this, and I know the implication is that if I don't agree with you then it means I am low level and basically cr@p. I also know that by continuing to reply to these posts, I'm beginning to look like an arsehole. However, for me and any other low level Wing Chun guys who don't see what you're saying, please help explain a little more.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMpcM2Rywv0

    What are the Wing Chun concepts/principles or hidden skills that I am missing when I see students:

    * Cover to take a punch on the gloves/hands (0.12) (0.23)
    * Step forward with weight on the lead leg, and bend the head forward as they punch (0.18) (0.28) (0.38)
    * Guard position with both hands/gloves held up by the side of the face (0.30)
    * Body moves right with a step as punch targets to the left (0.38)

    To me the above might fit with a boxer's training, but I genuinely don't see, or know, how this fits into Wing Chun. So I am asking. Robert Chu, if I'm not mistaken, was exposed to Wing Chun from Yuen Kay San lineage, Yip Man lineage (Hawkins Cheung) and also Gulao Wing Chun. Which of these lineages employ these methods?

    If these lineages do employ these methods, then it would be great if I could see it performed elsewhere. If you're right, and they do, then I admit that this is outside of the system I train and you're right - I just don't understand Wing Chun well enough to comment.



    I explained to Chris that the sparring I do I don't record. What you would see is that I try, as best as I can, to use the system without modifications. Varying degrees of success. My biggest problem is not from boxing but from Muay Thai; I have real trouble reading their kicks. I don't have time to train ground fighting - work commitments - so I only spar stand up. My sparring doesn't look like your sparring clip - so you would probably say we don't see Wing Chun in the same way.



    Really? Witchhunt or crazy email spamming coming my way? No thank you.



    Leung Ting Wing Tsun. Not the EWTO.

    You can't even give your name lol I can't waste my time then.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AlwYt3Yo5k

    New clip on Hidden skill.

    Anyone who looks at a fight and list every second of a fight has no fight understanding

    Of course we cover when being hit. I'm not teaching robots. The way you talk about wing chun is from a child like point of view. When you grow up maybe you will see deeper skills

  10. #265
    Quote Originally Posted by BPWT.. View Post
    Well, firstly... I would like to understand how those things fit into their system. Plain and simple. Why would they cover and take hits to the hands/gloves? Why would they lean forward with their head down in this way? Why would they lunge forward and strike, with weight forward and often have body going one way and the strike the other? How does that fit into their system? (I ask as I have seen nothing like this from any other Wing Chun lineage)

    Secondly, if they can explain why they do it (even though Alan shows very different and contradictory things in his other videos - as KPM just referenced), can they explain where this comes from: Yuen Kay San, Hawkins Cheung or the Gulao Wing Chun lineage?

    Saying "it comes from CSL Wing Chun" is not very informative, as CSL Wing Chun came from Robert Chu who studied the YKS, HC and Gulao methods.

    This would be a great start to being clearer.
    WTF why do I need to explain it to you? You can't see it and can't understand it. Watch the video's that I post and maybe one day you will get it, maybe not.

  11. #266
    Quote Originally Posted by tc101 View Post
    That is exactly right.

    I go on an Easter holiday and come back to see this still going on.

    Part of the problem here is some people think there is only one right way which of course is their way to use wing chun and if you are not doing things like that you are violating principles are not doing wing chun. These people often confuse the training with application.

    Another part of the problem is most people in wing chun do not look at wing chun as a skill. It's what you can do not how you think things should be that matters. Many people look at it backwards that wing chun is in the concepts. The important thing is can YOU let me stress this YOU YOU YOU YOU make what you do work and at what level YOU can make it work that matters not how you think things should work or what your ideas are. Your so called understanding and knowledge doesn't mean anything if you cannot put it to work. The Orr team makes what they do work and at a level very very few in wing chun can equal.

    What many of the comments are basically come down to I do not box but think I understand boxing and do not think how you box is right since it does't match my understanding. Their argument is well I may not be able to last 20 seconds sparring with you but you are doing it wrong and let me correct you.
    Good post. It may go over the heads of a few lol

  12. #267
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    By the way, Twenty asked a good question: "Let me turn it around why not do those things? Why is that not wing chun?"

    Would you rather they keep their head high and leaning back? There's probably a reason that doesn't happen in the cage...
    Yes exactly. Application or to put it another way sparring teaches you what YOU need to do and how to take your training and put it to work for YOU.

    What we often get in these discussions are people not doing application or not sparring or fighting that have ideas that things should and will work a certain way. The thing is they are not doing it they just think things should be that way. This is armchair wing chun.

    But you do not really know or understand how things really work for you until you really are doing them. Then you know.

    So a person may think I will lean back and keep my chin up and that is how it should be done but until they are doing it and seeing how it really works for them they don't really know. And the thing is if you can do it and make it work that doesn't mean I can or that it is best for me. Much of this is individual.

  13. #268
    Quote Originally Posted by LFJ View Post
    By the way, Twenty asked a good question: "Let me turn it around why not do those things? Why is that not wing chun?"

    Would you rather they keep their head high and leaning back? There's probably a reason that doesn't happen in the cage...
    I saw the question, but didn't think he was asking seriously. It's kinda Wing Chun 101 (no pun intended ) - WCK lineages approach body methods in a 'similar' way, and I figured do we need a post that lists why we hold our body the way we do, what relationship that has with our arm positions, what that means regarding facing, what muscles can be engaged, how it relates to WCK footwork, etc?... Just as a counter to the question: why do we CSL WCK leaning forward and bending down the head at they lunge forward with a strike?

    Most stick to the basic skeletal alignment of the head being up and the spinal column straight, "Push the head up to the sky, feet firmly on the ground", etc. This is why I ask for some clarification from Chris - why do they do what they do, and where does it come from?

    Same for the ducking and weaving, same for the hands positioned by the side of the face, same for them using the hands and gloves to cover and take hits, etc.

    I was hoping to learn more from him, before the thread moved from a 'why' to a 'why not'.

  14. #269
    Sometime we all see something and, well... it begs questions. A few people had questions regarding the CSL fight clip and then perhaps even more for the light sparring clip Alan posted.

    Nothing sinister going on here - just people asking Qs to try and understand more. Like I said, I am happy to change my opinion if it's proved wrong
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  15. #270
    Quote Originally Posted by HybridWarrior View Post
    Ducking and chin tucking is in the forms (3rd form, and Pole)...as is a type of horse where most of the weight is on the forward leg (Pole form). Wing Chun forms are the alphabet, put together whatever words you need to eliminate the threat.
    I have heard that before many times but do not agree. The forms are not the alphabet. That is the dance step model of wing chun where you learn various dance steps and then string them together. If it is not in the forms then it is not wing chun. This is when you get people creatively interpreting forms to find chokes and anything else they want to find. They see various dance steps they want to see. I learned things are more complex than that.

    I see the forms as containing and referencing some of basic things like shapes paths structures actions and so forth needed for BEGINNERS to learn and develop certain skills. To go back many pages to my tennis analogy the books will teach you a model for hitting ground strokes but when playing tennis you hardly ever see anyone doing it like they teach it in the books. The model is meant to teach the substance of hitting and controlling the ball and is for beginners. You transcend that model when you begin to really play. Your ground strokes will look very different. It's the same with wing chun. The forms teach you the model. It is not teaching you the alphabet but a model for you to use to develop certain skills. But when you start playing or in our case fighting you will not look like the model.

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