Shoulders up vs down

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you run toward your opponent like a crazy person, you can still use it to punch at your opponent's face. But the "punching" is not the purpose for this. The "over extended" is the beauty of the strategy. You move your hands as close to your opponent's head as possible. The moment that your opponent tries to punch you, his hand will leave his guard and his head will be exposed for your head lock. If you move in at that moment, the striking game is over, the grappling game will start.

This strategy may sound like "conservative" from a striker point of view. But from a grappler point of view, it's very aggressive. Your opponent wants to punch your head, you want to move in for head lock. Both purposes may be similar. The difference is you always have the "rhino guard" to protect your head, but your opponent's punch will always expose his head.

Ok...
The only problem I see with that is that a trained striker ( and by that I mean anyone that is a trained fighter) will NOT strike like that, will not just throw 1 shot, will react to the entry as opposed to just standing there and on top of all that, if that striker also has some grappling experience, they will react accordingly.

Maybe it is how it is being demo'd...

[YouKnowWho]

Ok...
The only problem I see with that is that a trained striker ( and by that I mean anyone that is a trained fighter) will NOT strike like that, will not just throw 1 shot, will react to the entry as opposed to just standing there and on top of all that, if that striker also has some grappling experience, they will react accordingly.

Maybe it is how it is being demo'd...

Let's talk a bit more "abstract" here. If you move both of your hands from the center of your chest (WC center line principle - protect your center from inside out) to both sides of your opponent's ears (basic WC SNT training), your arms moving path should intersect your opponent's arms to be outside of your arms. The "rhino guard" just reduce your hands moving path to the shortest distance (WC principle - straight line is the shortest distance). In stead of moving your hands from your chest, you move your hands far away from your chest and near by your opponent's head.

It doesn't matter how your opponent may punch at you, if you just move your arms along this path, you will have the

- maximum protect on your head,
- shortest distance to move your hands and reach your target, and
- better chance to intersect your opponent's punch.

When will you "separate" your arms depends on when you can detect your opponent's head is exposed. May be after the 1st punch, after the 2nd punch, or after the ...

[sanjuro_ronin]

Let's talk a bit more "abstract" here. If you move both of your hands from the center of your chest (WC center line principle - protect your center from inside out) to both sides of your opponent's ears (basic WC SNT training), your arms moving path should intersect your opponent's arms to be outside of your arms. The "rhino guard" just reduce your hands moving path to the shortest distance (WC principle - straight line is the shortest distance). In stead of moving your hands from your chest, you move your hands far away from your chest and near by your opponent's head.

It doesn't matter how your opponent may punch at you, if you just move your arms along this path, you will have the

- maximum protect on your head,
- shortest distance to move your hands and reach your target, and
- better chance to intersect your opponent's punch.

When will you "separate" your arms depends on when you can detect your opponent's head is exposed. May be after the 1st punch, after the 2nd punch, or after the ...

The "rhino guard" is nothing new, there are variations of it everywhere ( kali fence, beggars hand, etc) BUT they all have one thing in common that the rhino doesn't, or I should say that the rhino does something that they don't: Commit the hands to clasping each other.
You don't see the disadvantage or issue in that?
Honestly, one good fake and the guy is eating it and I don't just mean a punch either.

[-N-]

Commit the hands to clasping each other.
You don't see the disadvantage or issue in that?

This.

What is gained by grabbing the hands together?

Seems like it adds unnecessary delay.

[YouKnowWho]

This.

What is gained by grabbing the hands together?

Seems like it adds unnecessary delay.

I have tested it in

1. 1 big fist locked by fingers,
2. 1 palm cover 1 fist,
3. 2 connected fists,
4. 2 connected palms,
5. 2 separate fists,
6. 2 separate palms,

I still like the method 1 better. It gives me a very "strong" guard that even my opponent tries to use both arms to destroy it, I can still keep my guard together.

There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent's action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.

You don't see the disadvantage or issue in that?
Honestly, one good fake and the guy is eating it and I don't just mean a punch either.

If my opponent throws kick, I won't drop my guard but to use my leg to deal with it. If my opponent's fake punch can expose his head, I'll go for his head. My advantage is my hands are close to my opponent's head than his fists to my head. If my opponent and I have the same speed, I should be able to reach to his head before his fist can reach to my head. Since my extended arms may give my opponent a feeling that even I use it to punch, my punch won't be powerful enough to hurt him, he may ignore my hands to be so close to his head. What he may not know is my goal is not to strike on his head but to pass around his head and wrap it. I don't need any punching power for that.

[-N-]

There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent's action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.

Ok, got it.

If you priotize the strong shield and have no intention to react and change to the opponent, then grabbing hands together works best.

[Wayfaring]

I have tested it in

1. 1 big fist locked by fingers,
2. 1 palm cover 1 fist,
3. 2 connected fists,
4. 2 connected palms,
5. 2 separate fists,
6. 2 separate palms,

I still like the method 1 better. It gives me a very "strong" guard that even my opponent tries to use both arms to destroy it, I can still keep my guard together.

There are many strategies used in combat. Some people like to react to their opponent's action. I like to set up a goal (obtain a clinch ASAP). I then find a path that can lead me toward that goal with the least amount of risk taken.

It sounds like you are using a gimmick guard to get to a clinch. It should be effective if people try to punch their way into it. However, with the hands isolated like that any good wrestler will use that to your disadvantage. One example is just shoot in directly on the waist. You may be able to sprawl with hands clasped like that, but you won't have mobility off the sprawl to win the circle battle. Also, it makes it easier to arm drag or manipulate that whole unit with the arms clasped. And as previously mentioned, tough to react to feints.

As a gimmick, it can be workable but leaves major holes for an effective approach.

If my opponent throws kick, I won't drop my guard but to use my leg to deal with it. If my opponent's fake punch can expose his head, I'll go for his head. My advantage is my hands are close to my opponent's head than his fists to my head. If my opponent and I have the same speed, I should be able to reach to his head before his fist can reach to my head. Since my extended arms may give my opponent a feeling that even I use it to punch, my punch won't be powerful enough to hurt him, he may ignore my hands to be so close to his head. What he may not know is my goal is not to strike on his head but to pass around his head and wrap it. I don't need any punching power for that.

To effectively block leg kicks you are also going to need mobility and counter balance with your arms, which you won't have with them locked up together like that. I mean try a MT drill blocking inside and outside kicks with arms tied together. You can do it, but anyone good will take one look at that disadvantage you are piling on yourself and light you up like a Xmas tree.

[YouKnowWho]

with the hands isolated like that any good wrestler will use that to your disadvantage. One example is just shoot in directly on the waist. You may be able to sprawl with hands clasped like that, but you won't have mobility off the sprawl to win the circle battle. Also, it makes it easier to arm drag or manipulate that whole unit with the arms clasped. And as previously mentioned, tough to react to feints.

The rhino guard is used to guard your head (general YOU) against punches. This strategy is used by a "wrestler" who doesn't want to spend time to train his striking skill but he still want to test his "wrestling skill" against strikers. If his opponent is a wrestler, this strategy will have little value.

- If you are afraid of a wrestler, you are not a good wrestler yourself.
- If your opponent shoot in toward your waist, you don't need to sprawl. Since his head will be exposed and so close to your hands, you can shoot in toward his head at the same time.
- If your opponent can use single arm drag to move both of your arms, you may have serious body structure problem.

When your opponent's arms wrap around your waist while your arms wrap around his head, what will happen after that, it all depends on individual "skill/ability level". We can only discuss "strategy" here. We can't compare individual's "skill/ability level". IMO, the testing is very important here. If you can use your "rhino guard" to deflect 10,000 punches coming toward your head, you will know that your "rhino guard" may have some combat value.

[anerlich]

I had assumed the purpose of joining the hands in the rhino guard was to make the guard stronger and less likely to be knocked aside.

I've been taught similar concepts, though with important differences, by a 4th degree BJJ black belt with EXTENSIVE experience in kickboxing, Silat and other striking arts. IIRC the Gracie combatives include some very similar concepts.

He too, developed a strategy to allow a grappler to close with a puncher without minimum risk (which is not to say NO risk - there is no such option).

However, his guard does not extend out from the body like the rhino guard does. His two main guards are the "shell", where you basically have both hands on the hairline at the front of the head (open hand if no gloves, fists if using gloves), elbows down and with a tight structure, very similar to Rodney King's "crazy monkey" defence. This structure is very strong, and to my mind superior to the rhino guard as it gives no chance for the guy to knock your hands back into your own head, pull them down or attack them with grappling moves. Standing, it is easy to move the elbows slightly to block any head shot, and even some body shots. You basically just charge at the guy until you get both forearms on his chest and then are in clinch range with your head on the guy's chest. The guard easily then converts to over/underhooks, body locks, arm and neck ties, etc.

The structure works well for a closed guard on your back in a punching situation - pull him in with your legs, keeping the shell on to avoid punches, until his chest is on your forearms, from where you can get an overhook and neck tie, move to rubber guard, head/arm choke, etc. I wouldn't want to use any guard that took my hands away from my head if I was getting punched underneath on the ground.

It is even arguably the best of a number of bad options if you are mounted and being punched. Just weather the storm until you can buck him forward and hopefully grab an arm to bridge and roll.

The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.

Here's an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg

[YouKnowWho]

If you keep your hands away from your head, in order for your opponent to punch your head, his head will be so close to your hands. Also his hands will have longer distance to reach to your head. Here is a simple picture for it. B's arms are shorter than A's arms because A's arms are straight but B's arms is not. The blue dashed lines will be A's hands moving path. The moment that A can detect B's head is exposed, the moment that A's arms will move in. Since any attack comes from B will force B's head to be exposed, that's what A is waiting for. Since B's head punch will take longer path than A's head wrap, that will be A's advantage.

[anerlich]

If you keep your hands away from your head, in order for your opponent to punch your head, his head will be so close to your hands. Also his hands will have longer distance to reach to your head. Here is a simple picture for it. B's arms are shorter than A's arms because A's arms are straight but B's arms is not. The blue dashed lines will be A's hands moving path. The moment that A can detect B's head is exposed, the moment that A's arms will move in. Since any attack comes from B will force B's head to be exposed, that's what A is waiting for. Since B's head punch will take longer path than A's head wrap, that will be A's advantage.

But that's not what you actually do in the vid. In the vid, you block his punch up with your left forearm (one move) and then close (two moves). His head is exposed when he starts the punch, where a user of the shell can crash in using the shell and be right up against him in a single movement.

Wouldn't that guard be vulnerable to a "defanging the snake" strategy, where he just beats on your hands and forearms while staying out of range?

[YouKnowWho]

But that's not what you actually do in the vid. In the vid, you block his punch up with your left forearm (one move) and then close (two moves). His head is exposed when he starts the punch, where a user of the shell can crash in using the shell and be right up against him in a single movement.

Wouldn't that guard be vulnerable to a "defanging the snake" strategy, where he just beats on your hands and forearms while staying out of range?

I don't have clip for that yet but I'll make that clip when I have chance.

When a rhino charges in, he doesn't have to wait for his opponent's attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don't even have to wait for your opponent's opening. You can just open your opponent's guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC "chain punches" strategy. The difference is when you use "chain punches", you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don't need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.

If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent's head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can't move back forever.

[Vajramusti]

I don't have clip for that yet but I'll make that clip when I have chance.

When a rhino charges in, he doesn't have to wait for his opponent's attack. He can attack any time that he wants to. If you apply this strategy to the extreme, you don't even have to wait for your opponent's opening. You can just open your opponent's guard on the way in. This is 100% aggressive approach which is very similar to the WC "chain punches" strategy. The difference is when you use "chain punches", you have to deliver punching power in every single punches of yours. When you move in with rhino guard, you don't need any power. this can make the rhino guard arms to move faster with maximum relaxation.

If your opponent tries to hurt your arms, you still just move your arms in through both sides of your opponent's head. If he moves back, you just keep trying. He can't move back forever.

-----------------------------------------------------------------
In thecontext of John's video-
A good understanding and internalization of wing chun can allow to move in with closed man sao and wu sao hand position-if the timing is right-
allowing additional punches, chops or clinching imo without changing gears to non wing chun motions.

[Wayfaring]

The rhino guard is used to guard your head (general YOU) against punches. This strategy is used by a "wrestler" who doesn't want to spend time to train his striking skill but he still want to test his "wrestling skill" against strikers. If his opponent is a wrestler, this strategy will have little value.

So in a self defense scenario unless you probe your opponent and know he doesn't have wrestling skills, the rhino guard is ineffective?

- If you are afraid of a wrestler, you are not a good wrestler yourself.
- If your opponent shoot in toward your waist, you don't need to sprawl. Since his head will be exposed and so close to your hands, you can shoot in toward his head at the same time.
- If your opponent can use single arm drag to move both of your arms, you may have serious body structure problem.

First, what does this little adage have to do with the rhino guard? whether someone is afraid of a wrestler? So now rhino guard only works against non wrestlers who are not afraid of other wrestlers? Also the arm drag's purpose is not moving both of your arms, it's getting you to the waist. And last, I'm getting this mind picture of a dude sprawling on someone with both hands clasped together and face planting. It's an awesome picture.

When your opponent's arms wrap around your waist while your arms wrap around his head, what will happen after that, it all depends on individual "skill/ability level". We can only discuss "strategy" here. We can't compare individual's "skill/ability level". IMO, the testing is very important here. If you can use your "rhino guard" to deflect 10,000 punches coming toward your head, you will know that your "rhino guard" may have some combat value.

Wow, that last sentence sounds like a fortune cookie

[Wayfaring]

However, his guard does not extend out from the body like the rhino guard does. His two main guards are the "shell", where you basically have both hands on the hairline at the front of the head (open hand if no gloves, fists if using gloves), elbows down and with a tight structure, very similar to Rodney King's "crazy monkey" defence. This structure is very strong, and to my mind superior to the rhino guard as it gives no chance for the guy to knock your hands back into your own head, pull them down or attack them with grappling moves. Standing, it is easy to move the elbows slightly to block any head shot, and even some body shots. You basically just charge at the guy until you get both forearms on his chest and then are in clinch range with your head on the guy's chest. The guard easily then converts to over/underhooks, body locks, arm and neck ties, etc.

Yes, absolutely. This is the solid approach here that doesn't give up mobility. MT shell.

The structure works well for a closed guard on your back in a punching situation - pull him in with your legs, keeping the shell on to avoid punches, until his chest is on your forearms, from where you can get an overhook and neck tie, move to rubber guard, head/arm choke, etc. I wouldn't want to use any guard that took my hands away from my head if I was getting punched underneath on the ground.

in my experience the MT shell from the above paragraph is not very effective from guard as you can still get punched in closed guard so you either need to wrap the neck to prevent posture, block a bicep hands out and insert knees (gracie combatives), sweep, or do rubber guard/high guard.

It is even arguably the best of a number of bad options if you are mounted and being punched. Just weather the storm until you can buck him forward and hopefully grab an arm to bridge and roll.

Agreed.

The other option is a thing called the visor, where you wrap both arms around your head, a bit like as if they were folded, and you peek out the slit between the forearms. Same thing, run at the guy until you make contact with the arms and go into your clinching game.

Here's an example (I would call this the visor, rather than the shell): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mftSpRTuCJg

I would call those guys the rhino guard.