Wing chun kuen What happen in 1855

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Hendrik;1218442]Looking at what happen in the 1855,

Tan sau Ng doesnt play a role on the creation of the three sets .nor him is the creator of WCK as Pan nAm suggest, ip Chun endorse , and many support after that. A popular belive in the 1990,
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Neither Pan Nam or Ip Chun are historians.

Pan Nam tried to fuse what little wing chun he knew with hung ga in the stancing.
When Ip Chun talks about Ip Man as a father, I listen.. when he talks of wing chun history I basically tune out.
I have worked out with a kung fu "grandson" of Pan nam Ip Chun had little interest in wing chun till he came to HK in 1962... when Ip Man was winding up his teaching.

[Graham H]

Anything that Ip Chun endorses I would stay well clear of.

[Paul T England]

I have exchanged with the Pan Nam groups in Fatsan although never got to meet the main man as he had died when I started going over. They are generally a good bunch but their wing chun is not the best in fatsan. I think their hung kuen is better

Hendrik, how does Pao Fai Lien wing chun fit in with your history research?

Ip Chun openly admits he did not start wing chun properly until going to hong kong in 62. He also admits that he is passing on his fathers teachings and has little interest in fighting etc.

Wing Chun people need to remember old sayings and not be closed minded, ip chun can teach many fine things as can others with expeirence. A wise person can learn from others.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Graham H]

Ip Chun openly admits he did not start wing chun properly until going to hong kong in 62. He also admits that he is passing on his fathers teachings and has little interest in fighting etc.

How can this be possible? If Ip Chun hasn't been taught Wing Chun properly and has little interest in fighting then why the f**k is he revered as some sort of Grandmaster and has followers all over the world!?

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.

Whatever Ip Man taught him maybe he wanted to be gentle with him or he might have got duffed up. I was told that Ip Chun had no interest in Wing Chun in the early years and was more interested in becoming a musician. Obviously more money can be made from using your Fathers name. In that context fairplay to him.

[wingchunIan]

How can this be possible? If Ip Chun hasn't been taught Wing Chun properly and has little interest in fighting then why the f**k is he revered as some sort of Grandmaster and has followers all over the world!?

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.

Whatever Ip Man taught him maybe he wanted to be gentle with him or he might have got duffed up. I was told that Ip Chun had no interest in Wing Chun in the early years and was more interested in becoming a musician. Obviously more money can be made from using your Fathers name. In that context fairplay to him.

If a nearly 90 year old man declared that the only reason he trained Wing Chun was to fight I'd question his sanity. My si gung and his brother were taught by their father and asked by him to continue his teachings which they are doing (and I doubt that they would have been asked to do so had Ip Man not felt that they were suitably skilled). The differences between the lineages is actually very small when trained in close proximity to the source, but those differences seem to get larger and larger over time as the art spreads. It never ceases to sadden me that WSL, TST etc and the Ip familly all have / had mutual respect for each other's ability and differences and often taught side by side, yet successive generations have become more and more antagonistic and political.

[Graham H]

If a nearly 90 year old man declared that the only reason he trained Wing Chun was to fight I'd question his sanity. My si gung and his brother were taught by their father and asked by him to continue his teachings which they are doing (and I doubt that they would have been asked to do so had Ip Man not felt that they were suitably skilled). The differences between the lineages is actually very small when trained in close proximity to the source, but those differences seem to get larger and larger over time as the art spreads. It never ceases to sadden me that WSL, TST etc and the Ip familly all have / had mutual respect for each other's ability and differences and often taught side by side, yet successive generations have become more and more antagonistic and political.

That is the world we live in and it's not just Wing Chun that is effected.

How much Kung Fu, if any, the two sons were taught by Ip Man will never be known. I find it bizarre they both have different ideas.

Bloodlines mean nothing in Kung Fu.

[Graham H]

............................in my opinion

[Graham H]

If a nearly 90 year old man declared that the only reason he trained Wing Chun was to fight I'd question his sanity.

He's never declared he can fight!

[BPWT]

My si gung and his brother were taught by their father and asked by him to continue his teachings which they are doing (and I doubt that they would have been asked to do so had Ip Man not felt that they were suitably skilled).

That's interesting. I heard/read that both Ip brothers were taught mostly by other Ip Man students, not so much from their father.

I never heard before that Ip Man asked them to teach.

It never ceases to sadden me that WSL, TST etc and the Ip familly all have / had mutual respect for each other's ability and differences and often taught side by side, yet successive generations have become more and more antagonistic and political.

I would add/change that to "successive generations in the West".

[Hendrik]

IMHO,

Pao Fa lien technologically is following the 1850 siu Lin tau core and snake body crance limbs practice . With its own variation.


As I have point out from the Tan Sau Ng case , WCK snake body crane limbs siu Lin tao has the ingredient of fujian white crane and emei snake, these ingredient cannot come from the north. It is like California wine is from napa valley cannot come from Arizona. When we know it is napa valley wine we know it has to be napa valley.



As for the shao Lin, anti Qing....etc, take a look at 1855 history of china, lots of people want to be a king. Are they really anti Qing?

http://www.w1ng.com/northern-interna...ien-wing-chun/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ErY0gfLgY


So, History wise, also not derive too far from the 1855 popular triad uprising story variation. And ofcorse it is a story for the purpose to get the Chinese union to anti Qing.



So, IMHO, PFL wc is also a product of 1855 fut Shan WCK belong to a segment of WCK such as snake crane wc which also involve the triad uprising activity.

I have exchanged with the Pan Nam groups in Fatsan although never got to meet the main man as he had died when I started going over. They are generally a good bunch but their wing chun is not the best in fatsan. I think their hung kuen is better

Hendrik, how does Pao Fai Lien wing chun fit in with your history research?

Ip Chun openly admits he did not start wing chun properly until going to hong kong in 62. He also admits that he is passing on his fathers teachings and has little interest in fighting etc.

Wing Chun people need to remember old sayings and not be closed minded, ip chun can teach many fine things as can others with expeirence. A wise person can learn from others.

Paul
www.moifa.co.uk

[Hendrik]

As any complete tcma , WCK has two parts, the body of the art and the application of the Art.

It is never just fighting application.

A Chinese martial art certainly have the potential capability for fighting, but not necessary focus on fighting only.

One can teaches the art as an art, ie Chinese painting or qigong for health mind body development and place the fighting as secondary. That usually happen too.

How can this be possible? If Ip Chun hasn't been taught Wing Chun properly and has little interest in fighting then why the f**k is he revered as some sort of Grandmaster and has followers all over the world!?

Wing Chun is for fighting not meditating! If my Teacher said he no interest in fighting I would give him the flip! This is a big problem in Wing Chun.

Whatever Ip Man taught him maybe he wanted to be gentle with him or he might have got duffed up. I was told that Ip Chun had no interest in Wing Chun in the early years and was more interested in becoming a musician. Obviously more money can be made from using your Fathers name. In that context fairplay to him.

[Hendrik]

This article is a triad stories based view which is very common in tcma,

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/maga...hp?article=141


The technology DNA and actual Chinese history based tracking research Of 1855 has much more accuratecy then these type of research or ideas. The technology DNA and Chinese history tracking research can answer, who, why, how, where, when. While the triad stories based will not get to the spot but circle around the triad stories and legend .

As in this case, in this article, where is the shao Lin it refer too, when is it happen, what technology DNA from that shao Lin can be traced. The article cannot get to that level to give a precise pin point. Thus, it cannot explain how is the stories from the triad related to siu Lin tau or the core of the WCK. As we relate California wine to napa valley. iPad to apple inc.

And as we know, decade later the author of this articke flip to white crane of fujian away from shao Lin.




Notice. 1855, no zen involve, no monks involve. No mystic. No shao Lin. But extremely political and survival.

[Graham H]

As any complete tcma , WCK has two parts, the body of the art and the application of the Art.

It is never just fighting application.

A Chinese martial art certainly have the potential capability for fighting, but not necessary focus on fighting only.

One can teaches the art as an art, ie Chinese painting or qigong for health mind body development and place the fighting as secondary. That usually happen too.

Address it how you want. To me it is a science of fighting. I don't attach any esoteric nonsense to it.

Breathing evolved long before Martial Arts. It's a natural neccessity for life. Why give it a name and chrage money in lessons on how to cultivate it?

No such thing as chi power, chi manipulation or chi anything. It's as bad as those who have imaginary friends that live in the sky.

[Hendrik]

So, are you talking WingChun kuen as it is.

Or are you talking the wing Chun kuen you think according to you?


Those are two different things.

Address it how you want. To me it is a science of fighting. I don't attach any esoteric nonsense to it.

Breathing evolved long before Martial Arts. It's a natural neccessity for life. Why give it a name and chrage money in lessons on how to cultivate it?

No such thing as chi power, chi manipulation or chi anything. It's as bad as those who have imaginary friends that live in the sky.

[Graham H]

So, are you talking WingChun kuen as it is.

Or are you talking the wing Chun kuen you think according to you?

I could ask you the same question