WSL directly

[BPWT]

B
I'll await your response.

****! That's a lot of questions, and thus a big answer as none of the Qs have a one-line answer, in my book.

I'm on deadline, so checking in here during fleeting moments of panic and banging my head against my desk. So maybe later I can answer when I don't have a print house breathing down my neck.

But in the meantime, how about you give me a few names of those people you said studied directly LT's system with LT, who have now left to go learn from PB.

(and don't say "Batman" this time)

Ps. regarding your Qs, you know we are surely going to have different opinions/understanding/ideas about them, yes? I know that for you, you will say I am wrong and that each of the things you talk about are "punching concepts"

[Graham H]

Just answer the questions! I've got all day.

[GlennR]

Ill have a crack!

What is your thinking behind these three actions at the end of SLT?

Where's the 4th?

Why do we cross the arms up and down at the beginning of the forms?

To ward of evil spirits

Why do we push forward Tan Sau and Fook Sau slowly in SLT?

Youre lazy?

Why do we step up with the feet together with the double palm action in Chum Kiu?

Youre working on your disco moves?

What are the three gum sau actions towards the end of Chum Kiu for?

World peace

After each section in CK and BJ why do we use this one arm in one arm out action?

You are about to start the "hokey poky"

Why in BJ do some of the action go underneath the arm instead of over it?

Secret tickling manoeuvre

I'll await your response.

Your wait is over

[Graham H]

Glenn I already know you don't know the answers but I can always rely on a happy Ozzy to brighten the place up!

Toodleroo

[Graham H]

You could always have a proper crack. It would be interesting to hear your ideas behind these actions.

[BPWT]

Just answer the questions! I've got all day.

Well, unfortunaely I don't have all day!! I'm working. But seriously, you ask questions but won't answer just one of mine.

How about you give me a few names of those people you said studied directly LT's system with LT, who have now left to go learn from PB?

But seeing as I am willing to play nice, and as I am taking a coffee break and having a couple of smokes while I wait for my work day to turn into a living Hell... I will try and answer a few for you.

What is your thinking behind these three actions at the end of SLT?

Like I said earlier in this thread, it is teaching things about:
1. Elbow positioning (though not just for punching)
2. The concept of replacing (not necessarily for a ‘punch’ though often for a strike – and more about forward motion than backward motion, IMO)
3. Rotation of the arm – which is about the wrist and elbow relationship, and is a kinda primer for things you need later on
4. And more, but…

a) You won’t agree, so why spend the timing writing it
b) If you want details about things you admit don’t exist in PB’s VT, you should spend time with a real LTWT teacher (I am not a teacher )

Why do we cross the arms up and down at the beginning of the forms?

In our line, this motion is Double Tan Sau to Double Garn Sau, and then Kwan Sau that effectively takes you back to Double Tan, for SNT. But in CK and BT, the Tan to Garn happens much quicker and often looks as though you have gone straight to the Double Garn – that is to say, as the arms cross they immediately cut down to Garn, as opposed to SNT where the linkage is slower and is point by point. For CK and BT there’s a reason for this, but…. well, back to SNT.

It is tough to answer your Q because I don’t see it as an ‘up and down’ movement. Rather it is a ‘forward movement’, followed by a ‘downward and forward movement’, followed by a rotational movement (Kwan ‘rotating in and then forward’).

But for us, these movements are teaching things about:

1. Elbow position (and no, not just for a punch)
2. Forward energy (during the whole sequence)
3. Freeing the hands (Kwan), etc, while maintaining forward force.

There is more, of course… but again, see a) and b) above


Why do we push forward Tan Sau and Fook Sau slowly in SLT?

In our line we push Tan and Fook forward slowly, but also retract the Wu slowly too. You retract Wu Sau faster than the two forward motions?

But again, for us this particular sequence is teaching:
1. Elbow positioning (and yes, you’ve guessed it, not just for a punch – at least not in the obvious sense. E.g. Wu is often an attack that met resistance), and the elbow positioning for Tan and Fook is the same, though for Wu is not (different ideas)
2. For Tan and Fook: Forward and sinking force/energy from the elbow – the two have to be combined – connected to this idea of a ‘heavy elbow’
3. For Wu: Forward intent and sinking force/energy from the elbow

These need to trained slow so you can really focus on combining the elbow positioning with the various uses of force/energy and intent.

And yes, there is more to these three movements, and no I don’t have time to write a book for you.

Suffice to say that some of the above is also connected to what we are also training in the stance, particularly Kim Sut and the fact that you could argue SNT operates on one line, as opposed to CK using two within the context of YGKYM.

[Graham H]

Ok I'll wait until you have answered the rest. Thanks for writing it down.

[Graham H]

Joy or that other Fong guy could answer the questions as well, if he's not too busy looking into mirrors, and we will end up with the thinking that crosses 4 different lineages.

If Ian could answer (or T.Ray as he was part of it for so long) we would have 5

Wong Shun Leung
Leung Ting
Tsu Shong Tin
Ho Kam Ming
Ip Chun

....maybe an Ip Ching lineage from somebody.

[BPWT]

Ok I'll wait until you have answered the rest. Thanks for writing it down.

Sorry, but I won't spend more time just to have you say it is wrong/made up/etc, etc.

How about you address the above, as it is largely SNT level stuff and in a sense 'basic'.

And please answer my question about all these LTWT guys trained by LT who now learn from PB.

[Graham H]

I'm not going to say your are wrong or berate. Answer the questions. Stop being paranoid!

[BPWT]

So you won't answer my question? I wonder why...

Sorry, Graham. I think I've answered enough in the time I have.

I'm beginning to think you're a troll, just looking for a rise.

You're just 'more, more, more'.

[Paddington]

Themes? Oh the irony

What you are indicating as irony is not. Your comrades and yourself talked about a preference for the principle i.e. a general over the particulars i.e. an applications. Theme or principle is pretty much the same in terms of indicating a generality.

I would say another irony is born out when kev said he was not here to 'stir' but rather just discuss. It has been shown in this thread that he lied to this fact.

If I had it my way I would remove you guys from this forum so that we can get the population up and increase constructive discussions. I might present that argument in terms of increasing sales of the product this site promotes to the management some day.

[Graham H]

So you won't answer my question? I wonder why...

Sorry, Graham. I think I've answered enough in the time I have.

I'm beginning to think you're a troll, just looking for a rise.

You're just 'more, more, more'.

I'm not a troll. You want to back out then that is up to you. It tells me a lot. What I wanted is clear and decisive ideas behind these very basic actions in the Ving Tsun system that spanned several of Ip Man's senior students. This is a forum after all and for the people that do not post maybe they are interested to find out how and why all our thinking is different. Yip Man did not teach all these people different things. Why would he? Regardless of what he taught it is clear that there are many many many different ideas out there. Some sound and some absurd. What this forum should do for the viewer is make their own mind up and the chances that they will all choose the same lineage are small.

Let people make their own decisions and they can go for what they think is good for them.

Why stop at the questions I asked? Why not give people the chance to see on how our ideas differ from any different aspects instead of arguing with each other all the time?

The only thing that can stop that happening are that you (gen) just don't know which will lead people to ask questions in other areas. Isn't that what the web should be for?

If you refuse to answer B then there maybe somebody looking in that will learn from what you may have wrote. He/she can then compare it to other ideas and potentially choose which lineage to become part of.

Why keep making this personal?

Two things can happen. Either I will continue to get ridiculed below or the people I have asked will put their thoughts down in writing.

I think I know which one.

[Paddington]

Just a general note on people's argumentation styles. You are never able to address the points people make and even when they make a point similar to yours, you can't see it nor note the similarities. You end up making yourselves look foolish.

It is obvious to me that whilst you have good knowledge and perhaps skill in Wing Chun, you don't know it all and ultimately you will realize this and need to seek out the more experienced to help you. Unfortunately it is likely you will run up against brick walls; people just won't want to work with you if your posts on these boards are indicative of you personalities more generally.

Yeah, the above is my prediction.

[Graham H]

BTW this is not some sort of recruitment drive as Joy would probably think.

WSLVT is not for everybody, nor is LTWT or IPWC or TSTWC etc etc etc.

We are all different.