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Thread: The Only Truly Authentic Shaolin System

  1. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by r.(shaolin) View Post
    Traditional Shaolin contact sets (dui lian - 對 練) are a series of fighting dills (lian 練). That is why contact sets are called dui lian - 對 練. There are usaully 21, 18, 12, 9 or 5 genieric drills in each set. These drills were considered only generic patterns and never meant to be considered inflexible 'tricks'. Although these 'drill' can be done one after the other in a set once they have been mastered, beginner and intermediate level students practice them mostly individually with opponents switching sides. Basically, dui lian were not only a sophisticated and effective methods of passing on the fighting knowledge of the older generation, they were effective training methods. Unfortunately it appears that most dui lian and their training methodology have disappeared. In modern Chinese martial arts most of the dui lian are recent inventions designed for light props resembling weapons. The role of this kind of training has at best degenerated to the point of being useless performance.

    I would add that for a lot of its history Shaolin martial arts, was largly weapon focused - staves were used to defend the monastery not bare hands. You will note that even the more recent military exploits of Shaolin, during the Ming and Qing Dynasties, involved weapons. As I mentioned in another post, according to the traditions of our lineage, monks first studied basics for one year were then taught staff fighting – so that they could protect the monastery. Although sport wrestling has been as sport in China for centuries, weapons have been the most important part of Chinese wushu in ancient times. If one wants to talk about recent or 'modern' developments in Chinese martial arts (including Shaolin for that matter) it is the over emphasis on bare hand fighting. During the Northern Song Dynasty (976- 997 A.D) when platform fighting known as Da Laitai (Title fights challenge on platform) first appeared, these fights were with only swords and staves. Although later, when bare hand fights appeared as well, it was the weapons events that became the most famous. These open-ring competitions had regulations and were organized by government organizations; some were also organized by the public. The government competitions resulted in appointments to military posts for winners and were held in the capital as well as in the prefectures.

    r.
    Good Post!

  2. #167
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    Authentic Shaolin System(s)

    Thanks Lokhopkuen.

    sanjuro_ronin wrote: Certainly one doesn't need forms to be a good fighter, many systems have proven that, but one certaily needs them to be a "complete" MA of any given system.
    I agree. It is said in Shaolin that if you have 'quick eye' a 'heavy hand' and courage, you are already a formidable fighter. In other words, in combat, technical knowledge and skill will be of little value without timing, the ability to hit with lethal force and the confidence to act.

    I think that forms were more of a "transmission" tool than an actual "fighting tool".
    Quote Originally Posted by Qixing Tanglang View Post
    No. Forms are just one small piece of a much larger tradining puzzle.
    In the context of a traditional fighting system, and in the ranking of usefullness, they would be ranked down near the bottom of the food chain.
    Certainly, Shaolin includes more than sets and drills. Shaolin tradition includes stretching and strength training, – I'm not just talking about just muscle building – but the toughness to hit and be hit. This training involves: sandbag beating (Da Sha Bao - 打 沙包); finger thrusting (Cha Shou Zhi - 插 手指); sand bag snatching (Zhua Sha Bao - 抓沙包 ); stone seizing ( Shi Zhuo - 石捉 ), as well as other methods, to developed sudden grabbing strength, force penetrating, sudden and explosive counter-attacks; the development of accurate and effective striking with different kinds of weapons, etc. Beyond this, Shaolin training also includes the study of acupuncture points; medical and herbs treatments; meditation, nei gong (內功), sparring, etc.

    Although in some schools, sets, may be the "bottom of the food chain", in our tradition, they are not. Besides being the collective memory,experiences, records of successful martial strategies, tactics and training methods, they are the very element that links the present generations to past generations. More importantly, set training has substantial mental and physical health benefits for the practitioner. There is a saying in our tradition that says: Shaolin begins with Ji Ben Dong Zuo 基本動作 and ends with Ji Ben Dong Zuo 基本動作). Our older generations has put it to us this way: "Without regular practice you will have nothing in your old age.” The point being: the first purpose of Shaolin training for the practitioner is – health and longevity, the second, martial skills. In regard to martial arts – no drills no skill.
    r.
    Last edited by r.(shaolin); 02-02-2008 at 06:05 PM.

  3. #168
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    True dat. By just doing forms over and over again (I find this especially with Tai Chi) the techniques can become second nature in a real conflict. I've gotten into this debate with JKD people a lot. To them, all forms are useless and just a bunch of hooey. In my experience, those fighters who can use more than ten techniques in a real fight when they want to, are usually the better fighters. That's not to say that someone who is really strong and has good timing and speed couldn't smash you with just 3, but when you have the whole package: speed, strength, and multiple techniques, you have the superior fighter.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  4. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siu Lum Fighter View Post
    True dat. By just doing forms over and over again (I find this especially with Tai Chi) the techniques can become second nature in a real conflict. I've gotten into this debate with JKD people a lot. To them, all forms are useless and just a bunch of hooey. In my experience, those fighters who can use more than ten techniques in a real fight when they want to, are usually the better fighters. That's not to say that someone who is really strong and has good timing and speed couldn't smash you with just 3, but when you have the whole package: speed, strength, and multiple techniques, you have the superior fighter.
    The JKD people in particular give me a laugh with the "forms are useless" tag. How did their founder develop the skills he acquired? By long hard hours of practicing the WING CHUN, NORTHERN SHAOLIN & PREYING MANTIS FORMS he learned before he umm, errr "INVENTED" his own system.

    Yep forms sure are useless LOL!!!

  5. #170
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    There is a difference between "useless" and "needed".
    Last edited by sanjuro_ronin; 02-01-2008 at 09:29 AM.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  6. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There is a difference between "useless" and "deeded".
    I don't follow. Enlighten please?

  7. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lokhopkuen View Post
    I don't follow. Enlighten please?
    **** typo !

    I meant "needed".

    Forms serve their purpose, different forms serve different purposes.
    Are they useless?
    Of course not.
    Do you need them?
    Depends.
    Do you need them to fight?
    No.
    Do you need them to exercise?
    No.
    Do you need them to develop strength, speed, endurance, etc?
    No.
    Do you need them to be a Martial artist in a given system that has forms?
    Yes.
    Psalms 144:1
    Praise be my Lord my Rock,
    He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !

  8. #173
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    originally posted by Lokhopkuen
    The JKD people in particular give me a laugh with the "forms are useless" tag. How did their founder develop the skills he acquired? By long hard hours of practicing the WING CHUN, NORTHERN SHAOLIN & PREYING MANTIS FORMS he learned before he umm, errr "INVENTED" his own system.

    Yep forms sure are useless LOL!!!
    I know, isn't it hilarious. I love that new book by Teri Tom, describing that one most significant, effective, and unbeatable technique in the JKD system, "The Straight Lead". It's a whole book on one technique!

    Speaking of Bruce practicing Northern Shaolin, I'm sure you've seen him doing the double jump kick, rear twisted kick, Tornadoe kick combo from #5, Martial Skill, in Enter The Dragon. I've also seen him do this in some other black and white clip from Long Beach or some other demo. It seemed to be the move he always used to WOW!! an audience of people who didn't know anything about kung fu. I also see this same move in one of the Song Shan forms. It's weird, when I watch these ten forms in sequence from the videos that Sal posted, it almost seems to be sort of a jumble of seemingly unrelated styles and forms. I'm not sure if this is because some of the older masters are performing them instead of the younger monks.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  9. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanjuro_ronin View Post
    There is a difference between "useless" and "needed".
    No drills – no skill.

    r.

  10. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by Siu Lum Fighter View Post
    I know, isn't it hilarious. I love that new book by Teri Tom, describing that one most significant, effective, and unbeatable technique in the JKD system, "The Straight Lead". It's a whole book on one technique!

    Speaking of Bruce practicing Northern Shaolin, I'm sure you've seen him doing the double jump kick, rear twisted kick, Tornadoe kick combo from #5, Martial Skill, in Enter The Dragon. I've also seen him do this in some other black and white clip from Long Beach or some other demo. It seemed to be the move he always used to WOW!! an audience of people who didn't know anything about kung fu. I also see this same move in one of the Song Shan forms. It's weird, when I watch these ten forms in sequence from the videos that Sal posted, it almost seems to be sort of a jumble of seemingly unrelated styles and forms. I'm not sure if this is because some of the older masters are performing them instead of the younger monks.

    I just invented my own system Woo-Fu-Do$$.

    Pretty simple stuff but very expensive to learn

  11. #176
    Oh, the one true system at last! I will go to my instructor now and spit in his face and tell him he is a piece of **** and quit the school.

    Who cares what system is THE OLDEST!! or THE MOST COMPLETE. Ultimately, it comes down to this, how much does your teacher know, and have you learned it all already? I know that my instructor knows alot and that I've barely touched the surface. Once he says, "well, you've learned just about all I can teach you", then maybe I'll worry about trying to find that elusive "TRUE SYSTEM" that everyone claims to have.

  12. #177
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    It's ok that you have a bad attitude...

    Quote Originally Posted by HtownShaolinBum View Post
    Oh, the one true system at last! I will go to my instructor now and spit in his face and tell him he is a piece of **** and quit the school.

    Who cares what system is THE OLDEST!! or THE MOST COMPLETE. Ultimately, it comes down to this, how much does your teacher know, and have you learned it all already? I know that my instructor knows alot and that I've barely touched the surface. Once he says, "well, you've learned just about all I can teach you", then maybe I'll worry about trying to find that elusive "TRUE SYSTEM" that everyone claims to have.
    HtownShaolinBum
    I do hope you like your style, whatever it may be? Like most on here, you hide behind your profile name. But thats ok. I'm sure you will still learn alot from your instructor! I can see your journey has long way togo though...

    I'm Sorry if "you" feel that the BSL/NSL people are being so bold. They and I love our style and believe in our history of our style. I would hope you would do the same for your style.

    Thank "YOU" for your time.
    ~Jason
    Last edited by Fen; 02-06-2008 at 09:58 PM. Reason: Replaced Sifu with his "instructor"
    館術國勇威 Wei Yong Martial Arts Association
    戰挑的權霸統傳 The Challenge for Traditional Supremacy
    http://www.weiyongkungfu.com
    _________________________
    What is 'traditional kung fu' ?
    Chinese fighting arts developed before the advent of the modern age in China. Not to be confused with modern, post-1949, Wushu or competitive fighting such as kick boxing .
    By Shanghai Jing Mo

  13. #178
    WOW!!! That is quite an arrogant and backhanded post. And a little creepy. What is with the quotes? No, I dont go around blatantly saying that my style is the best, nor do I go around blatantly naming my instructor in every post, it would be disrespectful.

    An arrogant attitude is why I responded to the original poster in the first place. He displayed arrogance, and I responded with sarcasm, and chose not to drag my master's name into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fen View Post
    HtownShaolinBum
    I'm sure you will still learn alot from your instructor! I can see your journey has long way togo though...

    ~Jason
    Uh, dude, you don't know anything about me or my "Journey" as you would put it. And I will thank you to stay out of my personal affairs.

  14. #179
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    Let me put this thread in perspective: I'm not saying there isn't any level of authenticity to other Shaolin styles. What I'm really trying to address here is the schism between what traditionalists and modern Shaolin practitioners believe about what straight-up, "Shaolin kung fu" is in terms of a complete system. At the current temple they boast hundreds of forms from some styles that are very old but incomplete due to being partly lost, and from modern wushu, that is sometimes lacking in combat effectiveness.

    Before the Cultural Revolution there was only one style called, "Northern Shaolin Style." I'm not saying it's the best!! I'm just saying that I believe the Northern Shaolin Style to be the closest representation of what many of the actual monks were doing in terms of a progressive system of martial arts from the Sung Dynasty to the Qing Dynasty. That's just what I believe based on the history and evidence that I have. Of course, there really isn't any hard, physical evidence for anything when you're talking about the authenticity of any Shaolin style (besides some more.."recent findings"). However, much of what is labeled as "Shaolin kung fu" is made up of forms that were recently created or embellished upon. Whereas Northern Shaolin, despite some minor differences from school to school, has always been an intact, complete system. Why would people have called it "Northern Shaolin Style" if it wasn't?
    Last edited by Siu Lum Fighter; 02-07-2008 at 04:08 PM.
    The three components of combat are 1) Speed, 2) Guts and 3) Techniques. All three components must go hand in hand. One component cannot survive without the others." (WJM - June 14, 1974)

  15. #180
    Before the Cultural Revolution there was only one style called, "Northern Shaolin Style."


    Reply]
    Northern Shaolin refers to all the styles of the Northern Temple. It would be silly to think the Ten Hand Sets system was all there was.

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