What MMA did to Kung FU

[SavvySavage]

sorry, but that is asinine.
Learn the move, practice it with graduating levels of resistance, THEN, learn the form. What you said is a competely backwards method of teaching Gung-Fu.

A$$-backwards or not I have heard this in more than one place.


How's the new school location doing for you? Come to think of it...I'm not sure where your old school was but the question still stands. Ha.


Has anyone ordered Chinese food from you yet?

[Knifefighter]

The point is MMA doesn't allow you to test your COMPLETE arsenal...

And neither does traditional training. At least MMA lets you train the main weapons at full force.

[IronWeasel]

MMA gives EVERY MA a venue to test his COMPLETE arsenal, period.
The rest is up to the individual.

True.

Unless your arsenal includes:

(1) Butting with the head.
(2) Eye gouging of any kind.
(3) Biting.
(4) Hair pulling.
(5) Fishhooking.
(6) Groin attacks of any kind.
(7) Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
(8) Small joint manipulation.
(9) Striking to the spine or back of head.
(10) Striking downward using the point of the elbow. (Arcing elbow strikes are
permitted).
(11) Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation grabbing the trachea.
(12) Clawing, twisting or pinching the flesh.
(13) Grabbing the clavicle.
(14) Kicking the head of a grounded opponent..
(15) Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
(16) Stomping on a grounded opponent.
(17) Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

http://aco.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?f...JM%3d&tabid=58

[Knifefighter]

Come on Ronin you know thats not strictly true. I mean If you changed just one rule say for example allowing strikes to the groin it would COMPLETELY change the stance and footwork and kicking technique of MMA combat. I mean, everyone leaves the groin open the whole time. I think that small change you would see stances and footwork becoming a lot more 'traditional'.

It would change the grappling a bit too....Have you ever seen those ancient greek statues... when they're wrestling one guy is always clawing the other guys junk. (actually scratch that, maybe they wern't really wrestling, never know with the ancient greeks)
.

What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people. These days, fewer people believe this fantasy.

[Knifefighter]

True.

Unless your arsenal includes:

(1) Butting with the head.
(2) Eye gouging of any kind.
(3) Biting.
(4) Hair pulling.
(5) Fishhooking.
(6) Groin attacks of any kind.
(7) Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
(8) Small joint manipulation.
(9) Striking to the spine or back of head.
(10) Striking downward using the point of the elbow. (Arcing elbow strikes are
permitted).
(11) Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation grabbing the trachea.
(12) Clawing, twisting or pinching the flesh.
(13) Grabbing the clavicle.
(14) Kicking the head of a grounded opponent..
(15) Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
(16) Stomping on a grounded opponent.
(17) Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

http://aco.ohio.gov/LinkClick.aspx?f...JM%3d&tabid=58

And neither does traditional training. The difference is with traditional training you fantasize that you will somehow be able to pull those things off.

[Knifefighter]

well, not including weapons of any variety.

some ma are strictly weapon based.

Unless they are sparring/fighting full contact in a weapons-based environment, they are wasting their time.

[SavvySavage]

saavy,


1. why did you give up the flavor of your paticular stlye? forms are the core
applications of your style be proud of them, maybe focus on the application of each
individual move instead of the whole form
2. you should have been conditioning all along
3. why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.
4. you must perfect the tech with a partner who is willing to help you understand
the dynamics of the movement, then perform it on a resisting opponet to make
sure it works
5. LOL the goal is not to GET hit, why on earth would you spend more time getting
hit, conditioning your face by getting punched is not a good idea.
6. when you can read your oppents (Yi) intent its is that much easier to overcome
them, every fighter telepgrahs thier intent, its up to you to train how to read it
7. same as above.

PS when we trained MMA for the UFC we rolled around practcing tech with non resiting opponentss until the tech was learned then we tried it out resisting oppents.... this is no diffrent than kung fu, karate, boxing, tae kwon do or wrestling

I should probably elaborate on the 7 things I listed. What the hell did I type again in the original post? lol.

1. I believe that people get trapped by forms especially when trying to apply them in sparring. Forms have core applications BUT many times I've seen people try to extrapolate variations of techniques from them that only fit specific situations, sometimes look unrealistic, and cannot be applied in sparring.

2. Conditioning takes many forms so technically I've been doing it all along. But there is a persistent belief that forms are a good way to condition the body. I find this to not be true at all. Imagine if swimmers were taught to do a swimming form in the air for months and then thrown into the Olympics? They would not fare well.

3. Trapping is a huge part of Northern Mantis so I can see why you feel this way. But I've been finding that the kind of trapping that gets taught doesn't work well against people actually moving to hit you. I think trapping works well when demonstrating technique and is good to develop some hand sensitivity but getting stuck in this phase leads to frustration because arm trapping is extremely hard against strong people and skilled people.

4. When I said practicing technique against a resisting opponent I wasn't talking about push hands where two dudes just push each other a few inches away. And I definitely wasn't talking about me doing a technique and the other guy, fully knowing what I'm about to do, resists it on purpose. I was talking about randori practices involving striking and throwing where both people are going against each other.

5. When I said get hit more I wasn't referring to let people punch me in the face to get conditioned. LOL! Does anyone actually do this? I was talking about actual contact training. When I studied aikido, karate, and ba gua. In these three classes there was virtually no contact. If anyone got hit it was an accident from doing technique but there was never any hard contact. Only really soft contact. The people in these classes were reluctant to engage in such practices.

6. It's not easy to read an opponents intent. Sparring is a good way to get experience in this.

[Knifefighter]

3. why? trapping is an enssentional part for controlling your oppnent.

Please show an example of trapping working in a full-contact environment.

[Dragonzbane76]

Please show an example of trapping working in a full-contact environment.

i never understood why people got wrapped up in trapping. I learned it in my younger days but never found it very "functional" to say the least. Now i have used sticky hands but thats different.

[TenTigers]

A$$-backwards or not I have heard this in more than one place.


How's the new school location doing for you? Come to think of it...I'm not sure where your old school was but the question still stands. Ha.


Has anyone ordered Chinese food from you yet?

1) you are right, and that's the sad truth.
MMA is a wake-up call for these guys to start training their art correctly, as it was meant to be trained. But don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Take your techniques and drill them properly.

2)The new location is AMAZING! But..we haven't opened yet. We had a major plumbing glitch withthe town of Huntington,which after many weeks, and mucho denaro, we have fixed, and are awaiting our final inspection for our CO.
We have a stack of people who have come in waiting to sign up. You should stop by and see this place-nothing like this has ever been done- a large scale, traditional Mo-Kwoon, in an upscale shopping center.

3) Sifu James Cama called me up last night and asked for an order of Lo-Mein!

[RenDaHai]

What MMA did was change fantasy thinking like this for more people. These days, fewer people believe this fantasy.

Yeah, I'm not against MMA, And i like realistic training, but sorry i have used groin attacks before, and yes it does change things a bit. If you allow it you find yourself protecting the groin like it was your face, and you have to hold yourself a little different. And step a little more carefully.

But as Sanjuro said I'm sure in any MMA gym there are people willing to fight you with no rules. Just don't assume everyone who trains kung fu has only fought battles in their mind.

[MightyB]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

[sanjuro_ronin]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

Yep, that's sounds about right.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

it created a bunch of "prodigal sons".

Most of us on this board started in traditional kung fu. For whatever reason, we got discouraged. Maybe the teacher was holding out, maybe the techniques and training methodology are outdated... who knows. But, for whatever reason, we never lost faith in kung fu. We experimented, searched out different techniques and training methods, tested ourselves - threw the notion of style away and just worked hard trying to find a way to be more effective in today's world.

We mistakenly believed that the knowledge we gained through pressure testing and cross training would be welcomed back into the kung fu community. It wasn't. We're the b@st@rd step children of kung fu.

Good post. Pretty much says it all.

One thing I want to point out is the forms debate, although as old and crusty as a grandma's dentures, still makes me wonder. Most Kung Fu forms I have seen include too many unrealistic movements that one has to "break down" and "decipher" than train them realistically and with resistance. I always find it funny how the basics of any good fighting art are simple, to the point, trained the way you will apply them, and are not practiced while someone prances around in stances and movements they will NEVER use while fighting. Just thought I would throw that out there.

P.S. I know, I know, I have never seen "teh realz" Kung Fu forms

[EarthDragon]

saavy,

to comment back without cutting and pasting as its too long I will list my rebuttle in numbers. so please go back and reference my comments to yours.

1. agreed, people CAN get trapped up in forms and collect too many of them without every fully understanding the applications that are in them this is true, but their are many MA's that dont get trapped up in form collection without purpose.
2. forms condition the body for agility grace, balance and foundation. not for toughnees or conditioning of sau the hands or feet, this is done by striking, IP finger srenghtening etc etc
3. what kind of trapping that gets taught doesnt work you ask? IMO incorrect methods, not enough practice and lousy teachers. trapping an arm against an opponent chest while you are doing a ground and pound it still trapping. But one should never get stuck in any one part of the cpomplete whole.
4. this should be part of any intermediate level of ANY martial art chinese or otherwise.

5. if you studied those styles and they didnt let you have ANY contact, you were with bad teacher or you wernt in it long enough. I have some beginner students (less than a 6 solid months) who cant fight and dont know applications yet, but to say aikido karate and bagau dont practice contact or just soft contact ubsurd