WCK and Ground Fighting

[Wayfaring]

A larger question would be who else out there in WC in actively working on using their WC for ground fighting? By that I don't mean incorporating techniques from other systems into WC but actually trying to use WC on the ground.

working on this. but I entered into it in reverse, by cross-training BJJ. what I've found so far is there are certain fundamentals on the ground that are different that you have to learn. if you don't, you could do the exact wrong thing in a situation easily.

hand fighting in nogi and grip fighting in gi to me how I do it are 100% WCK bridge in the entry and movements until I have a grip. then the purpose diverts from WCK - to shut down space and get to the ground.

what I find most translatable across the two is elbow position.

[CarlosCrcaporto]

Well, the question I have is this, how many of you fell confortable with the techniques you learn to apply them in the streets? I feel great with mine I know my techniques work in the streets, I think most of the people are to far away to know WC or another martial art deeply, and I say this cause most of them just practice them, don´t study them like we do in CRCA everything in life have a theory behind everything, it´s not just like grab here, and I ask why? and most of the people say"cause it´s the way it´s done", NO, I don´t like this way, I like more, do like this, because of that or because of this, and then apply to real combat, to the real street fight, after all that´s why we all train martial arts, to defend ourselfs in the streets.

[Frost]

Well, the question I have is this, how many of you fell confortable with the techniques you learn to apply them in the streets? I feel great with mine I know my techniques work in the streets, I think most of the people are to far away to know WC or another martial art deeply, and I say this cause most of them just practice them, don´t study them like we do in CRCA everything in life have a theory behind everything, it´s not just like grab here, and I ask why? and most of the people say"cause it´s the way it´s done", NO, I don´t like this way, I like more, do like this, because of that or because of this, and then apply to real combat, to the real street fight, after all that´s why we all train martial arts, to defend ourselfs in the streets.

okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk anyone else getting a cult feeling here????????????

[YouKnowWho]

If we change the title of this thread into "Boxing and Throwing Art" (or even "Longfist and Throwing Art"), we may have less "style boundary" discussion.

When a boxer (or a longfist guy) tries to develop a "hip throw", A Judo guy may share his opinion. After all, the "hip throw" is what a Judo guy's "bread and butter". I think it's health to compare the difference between

- How a boxer may train his "hip throw", and
- How a Judoka may train his "hip thorw".

Of course, the whole discussion can be reversed.

When a Judoka tries to develop a "hook punch", A boxer may share his opinion. After all, the "hook punch" is what a boxer's "bread and butter". I think it's health to compare the difference between

- How a Judoka may train his "hook punch", and
- How a boxer may train his "hook punch".

If a Judoka and a boxer don't have problem to exchange idea, why should we TCMA guys have so much "style boundary" in our mind?

[Wayfaring]

Well, the question I have is this, how many of you fell confortable with the techniques you learn to apply them in the streets? I feel great with mine I know my techniques work in the streets, I think most of the people are to far away to know WC or another martial art deeply, and I say this cause most of them just practice them, don´t study them like we do in CRCA everything in life have a theory behind everything, it´s not just like grab here, and I ask why? and most of the people say"cause it´s the way it´s done", NO, I don´t like this way, I like more, do like this, because of that or because of this, and then apply to real combat, to the real street fight, after all that´s why we all train martial arts, to defend ourselfs in the streets.

I guess that would depend on the street. The one in front of my house is relatively safe. The ones my cop friends patrol downtown are a little rougher on a Friday night, but still relatively tame compared to larger metro areas with gang activity. In the US we're still the Wild West so there's still always the potential for squaring off against an 18 yr old gang member and getting shot by a 9 mil. Drunks in a bar? Not too much of a problem unless there are a lot of them fighting together in a close space.

Apparently my MMA coach after extensive study of this has come to the conclusion that punching someone on the street costs an average of $7000, at least where I live.

So I guess my answer to this is it depends on the street. And that I am much more comfortable with my techniques on the street than my wallet will be.

[CRCAUSA]

Good to hear from Hybrid Warrior and glad to see other WC schools are working on this subject. Always a touchy subject when someone tries to expand the envelope to deal with new things. Like anything WC techniques are simply tools in the tool box. You use what's needed but you have to know of them to use them along with the core concepts of the system.

[CRCAUSA]

I suppose Oyama's Kyokushin group could also be described as a cult. Evidentally some don't really understand the loyalty of the individuals to the group. Not based on blind reliance but rather due to a well thought out reaction to an organization that sets a good standard. The CRCA has a large number of students/instructors around the world. Many like me hold Black Belts in other systems yet the common bond here is to each other as WC martial artists. We all strive to improve our WC skills and appreciate RW constanly trying to improve the system. Maybe sometimes he does and maybe sometimes he doesn't but no one doubts in CRCA that he is at least trying.

[Sihing73]

Hello,

My, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow, has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun System.

Having said that, this is not something which I gravitate towards. I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.

My combat approach is to have integrated Silat, Kali and now Hsing Yi into my personal approach. This may not answer all situations, but it suits me and has served me well in real street encounters. Of course I almost always carry a knife so that sometimes can be a great equalizer

You know, one thing which is sometimes taken for granted is the idea of using the hands in a ripping or tearing manner. No, not like ripping bark of of trees, but consider the grip someone can have who regularly lifts 45 pound or heavier weights using just the finger tips. How strong would that persons grip be and what effect would it have to have that hand latch onto some soft part of your body? As my Hsing Yi Sifu tells me, his art is a ripping, tearing art, the hand does not return empty. While not always easy to pull off, if he gets a grip on the side of your stomach you may consider it an effective method. Also, we do not train to grab with the entire finger, but just the last joint and hand, we refer to it as a dragons claw but perhaps others call it something else.

I would never try to fight a grappler by grappling and I admit if you put me in a RNC and I could not get to a knife I would be in a lot of trouble. If I end up on the ground I try to get back to my feet as soon as I can.

I guess I am pretty lucky that most "skilled" martial artists do not go around looking for trouble....................except when posting on internet message boardsm

[CRCAUSA]

Excellent thoughts and we also have similiar grabs in CRCA WC.

[Wayfaring]

I suppose Oyama's Kyokushin group could also be described as a cult. Evidentally some don't really understand the loyalty of the individuals to the group. Not based on blind reliance but rather due to a well thought out reaction to an organization that sets a good standard. The CRCA has a large number of students/instructors around the world. Many like me hold Black Belts in other systems yet the common bond here is to each other as WC martial artists. We all strive to improve our WC skills and appreciate RW constanly trying to improve the system. Maybe sometimes he does and maybe sometimes he doesn't but no one doubts in CRCA that he is at least trying.

Glad to see you guys around. We have a lot of lineages here but haven't had CRCA guys around to chat much yet. Hope all you guys stick around and contribute.

Don't worry about all the guys talking tough. They really aren't that tough. And most of them have personalities of a piece of sandpaper. But every once in a very long while they have an epiphany and say something semi intelligent that makes you think and you learn something from the interaction. And they represent a lot of WCK lineages, both Ip Man based and not. And of course occasionally they post up pictures of cute girls which makes up for the other times they are being complete chodes.

[CelticRedman]

My question has to do not with whether RW's techniques are valid or not (folks have already taken sides and I don't want to add to the fire :-) )... I'm more concerned with the "combination" of WC and BJJ" as a legitimate combatives method. For the folks who have significant experience in both, I'm curious how many folks have truly transitioned between the different style's techniques in an actual (as in "not MMA, not in class and not a demo") fight.

If you HAVE been in the thick of things, how did is REALLY work out? If you won, how? If you LOST, be honest and say "how." Was it because of the techniques, your skills or both (winning or losing)?

Thanks!

Carlos

[CRCAUSA]

Thanks for the welcome WayFaring. Lots of good experienced martial artists in CRCA all training in a great WC system. It's good to talk with others in WC that have a positive attitude.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Sihing73;1212920]Hello,

My, Sifu Chung Kwok Chow, has incorporated BJJ into his Wing Chun System.

Having said that, this is not something which I gravitate towards. I guess my idea if I go to the ground is to get back to my feet as quickly as possible. Even when I used to do Judo and competed I was known for being a very good thrower but lousy ground fighter. Just never did like the idea of being on the ground while someones friends could be standing around me doing other things while I was "wrestling" with their buddy.

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Interesting.
Each to his own.
I began Wing chun in 76. We did wing chun related ground work then- and it is there in the mix
of training regimens since then. Best to stand and move with good structure but to be ready
with your own game if stuff happens.

[CRCAUSA]

Sounds like good WC logic to me.

[Robinhood]

IMO, this question goes 180 degrees the other way from what WC is, and answering it doesn't do much in ways of promoting good WC discussion.

WC isn't about taking techniques out of a form and trying to find applications for them (except maybe at a beginner surface level idea of WC). WC is about using and understanding principle-based concepts and strategies in a physical confrontation that leads to fighting most efficiently as well as effectively. It's applying those ideas that leads to understanding the times & space for the proper tool/technique to be applied and is what's really at the heart of what WC is all about. And many of these ideas are applicable on the ground.

Not getting into what will/won't work in RW clips as that's already been covered by others, but I will say these are things I don't hear RW talking about too much if at all from a WC perspective which is a little dissapointing.

Exactly, I wrote the same thing a few posts back, I think most people really don't know what we are talking about.
Its along the lines of what Henrick keeps trying to explain....it is all about what they are missing in their wc structure, not more techniques.