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Thread: chain punching till my arms fall off

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CF4sx...&feature=feedu , Ernie explaining some details in dan chi and basic concepts in Ving Tsun. At 00:16 you can see a good example of a "tan" strike after he has bong'd, again at 00:40 you can see the "tan" strike following up after bong. Tan means to spread so these strikes are meant to clear the line to make space for it to hit, usually done if the bridge contact is on the outside of your forearm. Striking this way, the arm is more elongated, as compared to "jum" striking.

    At 00:50 is an example of a "jum" strike, which cuts the obstruction (it slices into the straight line, making it's direction go away from you) and makes space for the strike to continue in to make contact. Here is seen the bent/heavy elbow and is done when the bridge contact is inside the forearm. One has to adjust their frame to ensure the distance is correct.

    Just some examples of what Kevin is talking about.

    James
    I see it too... multi-tasking strikes.

    Thanks James
    Last edited by k gledhill; 06-05-2011 at 06:13 PM.

  2. #32
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    Basic idea of training,,,hit the guy as many times as you can until he is knocked out, if something comes in the way, get rid of it and continue hitting. It's that simple, and thru the training and understanding you learn instinctively how to take that critical moment (bridge contact) and make it to your advantage.

    No bridge contact?? Then take up his space and attack his spine, basic attacking strategy to allow a better chance of success, rather than staying on the outside and dealing with his balanced attacks and counters to yours.

    But things don't always go as planned, this is a given.

    In the end, it's your ability to utilize your skills vs his ability to utilize his skills, combined with the varying physical abilities and will/courage/intention between the two of you, too many variables to guarantee anything to a high degree. All I know is training in something is better for the most part than training in nothing.

    James

  3. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by sihing View Post
    Basic idea of training,,,hit the guy as many times as you can until he is knocked out, if something comes in the way, get rid of it and continue hitting. It's that simple, and thru the training and understanding you learn instinctively how to take that critical moment (bridge contact) and make it to your advantage.

    No bridge contact?? Then take up his space and attack his spine, basic attacking strategy to allow a better chance of success, rather than staying on the outside and dealing with his balanced attacks and counters to yours.

    But things don't always go as planned, this is a given.

    In the end, it's your ability to utilize your skills vs his ability to utilize his skills, combined with the varying physical abilities and will/courage/intention between the two of you, too many variables to guarantee anything to a high degree. All I know is training in something is better for the most part than training in nothing.

    James
    All the techniques and strategies help us to 'turn' the opponent, the strikes create cycling barriers that dont require 2 hands , ie commonly seen 1 hand controls, 1 hand hits, this is usually because a simple idea was never nurtured in dan chi-sao and onwards.
    Sensitivity training or 'flow' wont develop this striking unity. As simple as it sounds it can profoundly change and empower the VT fighter to take the fight to the opponent with wailing punches that are also doing a job unseen. And not egg beating

    You can see the punches are navigating the angles presented by the opponents actions...striking through the attempts to stop the strike in the lead opens up the following vt strike path long the centerline...because the arm has a double edge sword effect it keeps stabbing ...using either side of the dagger to deflect off the arm its by-passing to get the body/head/center/axis...

    The distances are critical to make it work so your not just overreaching with long levers to touch the jaw, or punching air, the timing and cadence/tempo of the opponents actions are also used to stab through the resulting over or under actions of the opponents blocking/defending with speed and accuracy. Chi-sao makes this striking alignment and responses intuitive rather than pre-programed moves.
    Not easy .
    Last edited by k gledhill; 06-05-2011 at 08:27 PM.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jaybo View Post
    Hi guys

    I have been training for a few months now. Last nights sesson was a killer. With punching weights we did 5 punches to the count, we did pyramid building from 10 to 50 then back down (i.e. 10 x 5, 20 x 5, 30 x 5 etc), followed by 100 (x 5). inbetween each set, we did a quick drill. This totals nearly 2000 punches. What is gained by punching to this degree? surely 50(x5) is plenty as a warm up? I guess it is for building the muscles that we punch with, i.e biceps, triceps and back?
    Punching with weights is not the best thing to do, the weight /resistance is going downwards which teaches the wrong muscles to work/fire at the wrong time, bio mechanically punching against rubber bands is a much better idea as the resistance is in the same plane as it will be in real life

    What’s to be gained by doing so many punches in class……to be honest nothing much apart from wasting time and your money

  5. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by kowloonboy View Post
    Thank you very much for your detailed advice.



    Could you post a video clip of this punch? I am guessing of how this should be executed. So keep elbows inward like all Wing Chun punch, while the front fist finish hitting/impact the target and returning back, at the same time the rear fist travel forward toward the target, and at some point they will be parallel next to each other (at one point of the path traveling along the center line, it will be two fist right next to each other, like a western boxer in guarding position) Have I got this right? Thanks

    Does the punch look like 1:11 to 2:07 of the following clip?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgQyiEWdlNQ
    No, in the clip there is no vt, just messing around.

  6. #36
    [QUOTE=Frost;1101383]Punching with weights is not the best thing to do, the weight /resistance is going downwards which teaches the wrong muscles to work/fire at the wrong time, bio mechanically punching against rubber bands is a much better idea as the resistance is in the same plane as it will be in real life

    What’s to be gained by doing so many punches in class……to be honest nothing much apart from wasting time and your money.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Agree with Frost on the first part.
    Second depends on who is doing what and how.I have not seen what he is doing in his punching..

    joy chaudhuri

  7. #37
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    What’s to be gained by doing so many punches in class……to be honest nothing much apart from wasting time and your money."

    Agreed! If you must do physical conditioning why waste time in class? Physical conditioning can always be done at home.

  8. #38
    chi-sao is a vt specific punching, force exchange drill.... lost to the "feel me, oh yeah I'm redirecting you, etc...bs.
    ...if the elbows are centered in the cycle of the drill chi-sao, you use the triangulation of the feet and hips to the centerline to maximize force exchange for short range ko power not requiring large retraction or telegraphic action.

    Centers can be shown by holding the elbow of the partner and centering, then pushing lightly. The centered elbow has the whole body structure behind it....the one being shown center will be pushed back easily unless prepared by doing ygkym.

    If each partner strikes forwards with opposite elbows as one does tan and one jum [slt] you feel the hips engage then the legs....striking, roll to the other side and you striking with the other tan or jum, roll and you strike v strike, roll strike v strike, if you relax or have bad positions you get hit, or corrected to improve each other, not war. Thats later .

    Done properly and you will not need weights you will develop explosive short range striking skills. Add the dimension of facing and tracking movement with CK and you have a fighter with forceful striking ability while facing and not a "feeling flow'er" with elbows and arms all over the place.
    Last edited by k gledhill; 06-06-2011 at 02:29 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    chi-sao is a vt specific punching, force exchange drill.... lost to the "feel me, oh yeah I'm redirecting you, etc...bs.
    ...if the elbows are centered in the cycle of the drill chi-sao, you use the triangulation of the feet and hips to the centerline to maximize force exchange for short range ko power not requiring large retraction or telegraphic action.

    Centers can be shown by holding the elbow of the partner and centering, then pushing lightly. The centered elbow has the whole body structure behind it....the one being shown center will be pushed back easily unless prepared by doing ygkym.

    If each partner strikes forwards with opposite elbows as one does tan and one jum [slt] you feel the hips engage then the legs....striking, roll to the other side and you striking with the other tan or jum, roll and you strike v strike, roll strike v strike, if you relax or have bad positions you get hit, or corrected to improve each other, not war. Thats later .

    Done properly and you will not need weights you will develop explosive short range striking skills. Add the dimension of facing and tracking movement with CK and you have a fighter with forceful striking ability while facing and not a "feeling flow'er" with elbows and arms all over the place.
    That's a good explaination Kev.

    If anything, you would do low rep, heavy weighted squats to improve your VT punch, as the power is coming from the stabalized frame and leg/glute muscles. Holding weights in your hand is the opposite, your working your shoulder rather than the superior larger quad. Think of it this way, how much can one military press compared to their squat?? Most can squat much more weight, the trick is how to I utilze that power in my punch.

    James

  10. #40
    ,
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    chi-sao is a vt specific punching, force exchange drill.... lost to the "feel me, oh yeah I'm redirecting you, etc...bs.......... you have a fighter with forceful striking ability while facing and not a "feeling flow'er" with elbows and arms all over the place.
    Hey Kev,

    I like your guys concept of clearing the line with one arm. I think it can be very useful. Believe it or not we use the same concept "when appropriate". I've watched quite a few examples now of the sweeping punch/Jum/tan or whatever you call it. Looks good but I've also noticed that most the time the rear hand was chambered or, believe it or not, "controlling" at a very close distance to the punch arm. So let me ask you this since your so against controlling with two hands. If done properly, wouldn't I inherently have a different angle line of attack by controlling actually giving me two different attack options between my controlling hand and attacking hand? Wouldn't that then give me the ability to open up and gain the inside line following the true concept of the triangle theory? Wouldn't you by nature be bound to a very narrow set of lines using the the whole one arm acts as two thing, especially when you have that rear hand chambered?
    Matt
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  11. #41
    On another note too, it appears that you guys use this method as a majority rather than a minority in your training, which is fine. I don't know if this is more a PB line thing because I don't see it as much with the David Peterson or Gary Lam examples. I don't know why you're so against the idea of controlling or "wristing" either. It seems to me that this method you've defended and put down others for, over and over, is really only at it's most effective against someone who keeps their elbow down when fighting. For those who have been in a real fight, they know that to gain access to someone's elbow is almost next to impossible. The most likely way you'll disrupt their structure at all will be by their 'wrist' or 'upper forearm' and of course the all-important footwork. It's also obvious too that the majority of people you'll face will have their elbows up the majority of the time.

    I don't know, I have an open mind to WC and I've really tried to see the benefits of your method Kev but I just don't think it's a better way....
    Matt
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  12. #42
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    One of the TCMA training problems is one may spend too much time striking in the thin air instead of striking on heavy bag.

  13. #43
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    If Dr. Leung Jan (John Crescione) is around, maybe he can clarify this,, as I learned it from him.
    In the body there are areas that develop blockages, or areas where energy stagnates. The shoulder, elbow and wrist are just such places and are referred to as gates.
    Continuous chain punching for nine minutes opens up the first gate, eighteen minutes opens up the second gate, and 27 minutes opens up the third gate.
    When all three gates are cleared, the energy flows.
    Admittedly, I have only gone as far as the second gate.
    "My Gung-Fu may not be Your Gung-Fu.
    Gwok-Si, Gwok-Faht"

    "I will not be part of the generation
    that killed Kung-Fu."

    ....step.

  14. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by mvbrown21 View Post
    On another note too, it appears that you guys use this method as a majority rather than a minority in your training, which is fine. I don't know if this is more a PB line thing because I don't see it as much with the David Peterson or Gary Lam examples. I don't know why you're so against the idea of controlling or "wristing" either. It seems to me that this method you've defended and put down others for, over and over, is really only at it's most effective against someone who keeps their elbow down when fighting. For those who have been in a real fight, they know that to gain access to someone's elbow is almost next to impossible. The most likely way you'll disrupt their structure at all will be by their 'wrist' or 'upper forearm' and of course the all-important footwork. It's also obvious too that the majority of people you'll face will have their elbows up the majority of the time.

    I don't know, I have an open mind to WC and I've really tried to see the benefits of your method Kev but I just don't think it's a better way....
    you dont know it, your trying to make sense of it by YOUR understanding ...if your ever in nyc drop in. Its easier to explain 'hands on' sparring. Elbows up or down theres always a kick

    this isnt a bash either, because I used to try and make sense of articles by WSL when I was doing stuff like your doing now.

    its a holistic approach that deals with sparring as the goal, not the drills.


    btw wristing is a term for unaligned movement , hand chasing to 'control' etc...you will be surprised at the results. Everyone who is shown the thinking grins first then says " how come I never heard this way ? " . then you see some guidelines and a simple proving method of ones ability to use the lin sil di dar.....in sparring. Its not just the hands but the WHOLE everything attached to the arms, the body alignment, the control of momentum in fast exchanges, refacing , maintaing striking distances, being able to generate force or not...its really a testing ground for what you 'think' you have ....can be humbling. It humbled me ...
    Last edited by k gledhill; 06-06-2011 at 09:19 PM.

  15. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    you dont know it, your trying to make sense of it by YOUR understanding ...if your ever in nyc drop in. Its easier to explain 'hands on' sparring. Elbows up or down theres always a kick

    this isnt a bash either, because I used to try and make sense of articles by WSL when I was doing stuff like your doing now.

    its a holistic approach that deals with sparring as the goal, not the drills.


    btw wristing is a term for unaligned movement , hand chasing to 'control' etc...you will be surprised at the results. Everyone who is shown the thinking grins first then says " how come I never heard this way ? " . then you see some guidelines and a simple proving method of ones ability to use the lin sil di dar.....in sparring. Its not just the hands but the WHOLE everything attached to the arms, the body alignment, the control of momentum in fast exchanges, refacing , maintaing striking distances, being able to generate force or not...its really a testing ground for what you 'think' you have ....can be humbling. It humbled me ...
    I'm open to everything and if I'm ever in NYC I'll be sure to "test" it out so to speak. A structured "beimo" fight, right?

    Anyway, Is there a big difference between the Gary Lam line and the PB because here's an interview of one of his students and he says this about controlling -

    "Ernie: You’re dead on Kev. When I was first brought to Sifu Lams I was told that even though Gary was very skilled, I should watch out for all the hand chasing and extra actions (flowery hands). Since the WSL family guys originally taught me, the only Ving Tsun I knew was the WSL way, so I was very skeptical. The only problem was that Gary’s guys kept handing me my ass! Every time I tried to be direct and attack, I got smoked, tied up, pushed, pulled or just dropped. These guys had huge ground power and were very ballistic with there pak sau and lop sau.

    It took me a few years and a lot of humbling moments before I started to “get it”. It was about timing and distance and setting up opportunities. Gary sat me down and said, “you have a choice, you can either rush in with Lat Sau Jik Chung and be like a machine gun with small bullets spraying everywhere or you can place the target were you want, set up the line, and fire with full emotional content and body mechanics—more like a pump shot gun.”

    The latter requires a different focus and intent on the VT skill set. Once I let go of my preconceived notions I really started to improve. Now there is a time and a place were both strategies work best; sometimes your need a jab—something quick and instant—and sometimes a rear cross is the tool—something with full power and torque. I think a combination of approaches suit me best, and the old boxing saying, “lead with speed; finish with power.” This brings another quote from Sifu Lam, one I use very much in my life, “don’t be stubborn, when it’s time to change, then change!”
    "

    I like Gary Lam and I think he has a nice mixture of traditional WSL so to speak and the ideas and concepts of the other lineage's as well.

    Control or the "flowery hands, as you call it" is a very important part of WC Kev and to write it off because you, yourself, might not have been very good at it doesn't mean it doesn't work or complete the big picture
    Last edited by mvbrown21; 06-06-2011 at 09:39 PM.
    Matt
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