Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[BentMonk]

Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by BentMonk
Thanks Hua. While I appreciate Pedro's frustration w/the SD folks he's had to deal with, he made some very broad generalizations in his post. To judge all by the actions of a few is "so not like a student of Shaolin". Not all SD schools or students are alike. Peace and happiness to all.

Thanks for the respect you've shown in this post. I try not to make generalizations about other schools, however these folks came as ambassadors of SD. Lets just say the members of the other forum were not impressed by their first impressions. It is however, refreshing to see such tolerance and respect shown by the members on this forum. Well from what I've seen so far.

[BentMonk]

"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

[pedro_sanchez]

Originally posted by BentMonk
"...these folks came as ambassadors of SD."

Pedro do you know which school these people are from? Anyone who has practiced Shaolin Do for any length of time is well aware of the issues many in the MA community have concerning our art. I have made peace with these issues. My instructors have delivered all that I have asked of them and more. That is all anyone can ask from any teacher of any art. I wasted a lot of time and band width in debates concerning SD. I now try to type less, train more, and use the net MA community as a source of knowledge. I hope the SD students on the other forum come to this realization soon. Peace.

Hopefully they will budz. And these practitioners of SD actually came from Kentucky.

[yu shan]

I have no problem with SD, let them make there mark. If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO

[BentMonk]

"If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO"

You speaks da truth Yu Shan.

[MasterKiller]

Originally posted by yu shan
If more people were like Judge Pen, the world would be a better place.JMO

But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide.

[Shaolinlueb]

Originally posted by MasterKiller
But there would be no safe place for hot Asian women to hide.

so true MK. they can always hide by me then

[Judge Pen]

You go and have knee surgery and see what happens to these threads. . .

A couple of comments:

1. Pedro Sanchez: I think I've read the thread that you were discussing and I'm sorry if some SD students didn't represent themselves well. However, that can be said for any style that has people that feel passionately about their art. I've been flamed away just because I study SD and not say BJJ, but I don't judge the art based upon the rantings of an anonymous internet "ambassador."

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

3. Yu Shan and Hua Lin: Thanks for the kind words about SD. I wish more people shared your perspective. I like to think that I work hard regardless of arguments of lineage and origin.

4. MK and shaolinlueb: Speaking of which, I have a new girlfriend. . . .

[Songshan]

Originally posted by Judge Pen

2. Songshan: I know where you are coming from. But I do practice traditional exercises like Ie Ching Chin (to use the SD spelling). And the japanization of SD has been debated ad naseuam and doesn't mean much to me. What you wear doesn't dictate what you train and, for what its worth, my school wears Chinese uniforms. It doesn't make us more legitimate than any other SD school. And belt ranks, unfortunately, are a product of American expectations for setting goals and identifying accomplishment.

Yeah, I hear you. I agree with what you wear doesn't dictate what style you train. I do feel that what style you train dictates what you represent. As it has been said a hundred times before, "Shaolin" is a very broad term that just about any style of MA can pretty much say they are Shaolin based. Lets face it, the real Shaolin vs none Shaolin, real monk vs fake monk debates probably don't mean a hell of a lot to the average martial artist. There are tons of martial artists that probably read these posts and say why the heck does the name Shaolin matter anyway? It does mean something to the ones like myself that do train in Shaolin that are not just learning Wushu. I grow tired of reading about "Shaolin is just wushu" stuff. There IS a difference. It's just up to you if whether or not you want to search for the answers.

Getting back to the post....the belt ranks, American expectations, and the japanese term association changes what real traditional Shaolin represents. I believe when you change something, modify or add new things the traditional aspect is lost. I see this in many "Shaolin" named styles. I recognize some of the moves as Shaolin kung fu but the rest was either added or modified. I don't see a problem with certain styles changing certain things...it just shouldn't be called Shaolin. So now that Shaolin is in a middle of a trademark battle it will be interesting to see what comes out of it.

[Judge Pen]

I see SD has having roots in shaolin, but almost any style can say that. So it's called shaolin-"do" (which is a japanese term but pronouned and means the same as tao a Chinese term.) So they name acknowledges that it is a way of shaolin. Is it the only way? Apparently not. Has it been modified? All you have to do is look at the material and how it is performed to know the answer to that. It's changed and evolved differently. It has incorporated techniques and forms that aren't traditional shaolin. But, in my experience it is effective for art, health, and martial ability. It is kung fu that has evolved through a path from China to Indonesia to Kentucky. And things change with time.

[canglong]

The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

[Judge Pen]

Originally posted by canglong
The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all.
Shaolin study to be complete must encompass
1.) Chan philosophy
2.) Martial Art
3.) Health

For a martial art to be Shaolin, it has to address all three treasures of Shaolin. Each of these treasures can be broken down:

A. Three Treasures of Chan (Also refered to as the three refuges)
1. Buddha (Master)
2. Dharma (Teaching, doctrines)
3. Sangha (family/community)

B. Three Treasures of Shaolin Martial Arts
1. Gong Fa (Specialized Skill)
2. Tao Lu (Sets/ patterns)
3. Ge Dou (Fighting)

C. Three Treasures of Health
1. Essence (Jing)
2. Energy (Qi)
3. Spirit (Shen)

This is considered the recognized standard for all Shaolin not just Shaolin-Do.

canglong, you are talking about a complete study of shaolin. But several here practice shaolin martial arts without the religious aspect included. They can be seperated into parts. I'm not making an argument that shaolin-do is pure shaolin. I just think that one can study shaolin martial arts without practicing Chan Buddhism.

[canglong]

Judge Pen,
yes I agree that's why I started my post with The modern definition of Shaolin consist of three things if you study them you are practicing the art of Shaolin if you don't most likely you are practicing part of Shaolin but not all. I do think there are some that study part and believe they study the whole though.

[Judge Pen]

Fair enough. Although I'm interested in Buddhism and Taoism philosophy, it's not a religion I would practice. I don't think anyone at SD says they study all of shaolin (just the martial part). The breathing and mediation that is taught is taught as a martial and health perspective; not a spiritual element.