Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by brucereiter

hi sal,



i dont know if you have reference to hsing i material but how about looking into this.
which lineage did it come from? how did it come to sin the'?

of coarse meteor fist would be interesting to hear about...

here is a clip of me practicing the form (with a small bit edited out ...)
http://www.youtube.com/user/brucerei...11/n1fpOAkhIEo

below are the names i was given when i learned the form.

Linkage of the 5 Roads
U hsing Lein Huan Chien


Green dragon comes Out of the water
Yuing Lung Chu Sue’



1 Getting Ready Position
Yi Pei se


2 Forward Right Crushing Hand
Tjin pu yu pen chien


3 Retreat left Crushing Hand
Tue’ pu chuo pen chien




Black Tiger Comes Out of the Cave
He Hu Chu Tung



4 Scoop forward, Right Crushing Hand
Sue’n Pu yu Pe’ng chien





White crane Spreads the Wings
Pai Ho Lian che’




5 Retreat, Embrace the Fist
Tue’ Pu pao Chien





Wildcat Climbs the Tree
Ye’ mao san su



6 Forward, Cannon Fist
Tjin Pu pao Chien



7 Retreat, Left Chop Hand
Tue’ Pu Chuo Pi Chang



8 Foot close together, right stopping fist
Ao Pu yu Chan Chien
Note: It also includes thee left stopping fist that preceded


9 Jump (or step forward) double chop hand
Tiao Pu Suang Pi Chien







Wildcat back up the tree
Ye’ mao tao snag su




10 Forward, Right Crushing Hand
Tjin (Chin) Pu yu peng chien



11 Turn the Body Position
Hue’ sen se



12 Closing Position
Sou Se

No distinct lineage, that's the traditional wushu version of the Five Elements Linking form, that all lineages coming from Hebei Style Xinyi Quan do. That looks like the exact official government modern version that is taught in schools as a standard Hebei beginner form to start with.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by kwaichang

In the Pa Kua that I was taught yhe rules state to brush the ankle and to sit like a Tiger or weight on the foundation foot? not sure how to say that, and the waist coiled like a Dragon. Or power from the waist or Dan Tien KC

that is correct in Cheng and Sun styles.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by Judge Pen

KC, i think you're right and you're wrong. All of your observations are correct, but I think you're focusing too much on the details. The postures, their sequencing, and order are essentially the same. Yes sometimes the number of times a posture is different, but I think they are the same form performed differently.

But why would Ie (or whoever from back then) bother to go find the,at that time, brand new and untested and obscure Chen Manching set, when the Yang family 108 set was always readily available everywhere to learn from very good qualified masters.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by arinathos.valin

Thanks, Sal... looking forward to learning from you...

I STILL have no idea where the SD 8 animal bagua form comes from...

8 Animal Bagua is from one particular lineage.
It is the style that John Painter does in his videos that came out in the 1970s.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by bodhi warrior

Let me extend my hand in friendship.
While I disagree with some of your post, I do agree with some of them.
Like material coming from books and videos or other sources. I personally believe that most if not all of the material sin the' taught after 1990 was not learned during his time training at the chung yen school. I have no evidence this is just an opinion. Dragon pakua, 8 animal pakua, chen taichi, the 5 animal form, could have all been learned through books or videos.
But I do believe that the core material, the material that matches hiang's is material learned in indonesia. And I believe that hiang's complete list of material was learned in indonesia. Again this is my opinion.

well, you might be right. But was Sin The teaching the 1990s material himself or instructors. How do you know that the instructors didn't get them from books or videos so that they could make more money getting people to get ranks from learning them?

There's a core system of Shaolin derived southern Chinese martial arts that went to Indonesia from the Hakka people, those sets are very different from any other system.

All those other routines just don't make sense being taught by elders in this Hakka system, they NEVER would ever learn or teach anything from outside their culture, it would be punishable by exile or even death.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by themeecer

Bruce,

Your form looks very different than the way I was taught. I'm not being critical, I'm just surprised at the differences. Some of it may be due to your personal nuances, and some due to how it has transformed from teacher to teacher.

Well, he was trying to do this, which is standard Hebei Xingyi Quan - Wuxing Lianhuang Quan (Five Elements Linking Form):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zb0jtUxTy5s

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by tattooedmonk

I would like to see what you have ...oh and I forgive you for being a pompous @$$....

Do tell us about the Meteor Fist routines.....

There's just one Meteor First routine.
I'd have to see the SD version or see the names of the movements and postures so I could compare it to the set that (drawings, not video) I have in my archives.
It comes from the original northern Songshan Shaolin area, it is practiced today rarely. It is very distinct, hard to miss, nothing else looks like it.

I had heard it was one of the newer sets that SD has added?

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by brucereiter

the gao bagua i am learning uses a heel/toe step almost like normal walking.

Gao is heavily merged with Luohan Quan, which has that.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by kwaichang

True JP but the fact that Cen Man Ching was one of the major promoters of Tai Chi would only add to the fact that most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor. It is the subtle differences that seperates it from the form posted. KC

But that not true at all, that's not what happened.
Traditional Yang was always the thing to learn.

He became a major promoter of Taiji Quan in the USA and outside of Taiwan. In Taiwan he wasn't considered any good except by his own students and people had proved that he only has spent a very short amount of time learning, if at all, from Yang Chengfu himself.

His books, yes, had very good insight to the workings of taichi, and his personal style of taiji quan was effective when he used it. But it wasn't exactly what he taught others and since he was one of the first people teaching Taiji Quan in the USA that what made it get so popular mostly. You had to take what he did and said and make it your own (by learning more TJQ elsewhere and combining things) for it to be of any use. Most average people that learn this style are pretty weak and aweful for the most part in comparison to people that do standard Yang family Taiji Quan.

In China, you could never say "most "Yang" Tai Chi Forms would take on that flavor", that would make no sense and be completely outside of the facts. Only in the USa would that be true, if that.
Traditional Yang stylists wouldn't be doing his style at all, and he didn't get known until the 1950s in the USA and his form didn't get popular here till the late 60s.

[themeecer]

Dang it. it is 12:42 in the AM here and after reading this thread and watching the youtube videos I want to go outside and practice. I guess that is a good thing. it sure beats me wanting to sit here on my backside and argue with people.

Question for the SD people ... what is your favorite form of ours? You can break it down into categories if you like.

Prior to black belt I like Connecting Fist and broadsword. But 3rd bird, Yen He, is getting close to surpassing Connecting Fist.
After that I like our Hou Tien Chi and Shien Tien Chi meditation. (I know .. they aren't forms, but I love teaching it and doing it) Form wise: Tai Chi (CMC) and 7 section chain whip. (the nine section is too long for my ADD mind)

Least favorite: Blue belt staff form.

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by themeecer

Dang it. it is 12:42 in the AM here and after reading this thread and watching the youtube videos I want to go outside and practice. I guess that is a good thing. it sure beats me wanting to sit here on my backside and argue with people.

Question for the SD people ... what is your favorite form of ours? You can break it down into categories if you like.

Prior to black belt I like Connecting Fist and broadsword. But 3rd bird, Yen He, is getting close to surpassing Connecting Fist.
After that I like our Hou Tien Chi and Shien Tien Chi meditation. (I know .. they aren't forms, but I love teaching it and doing it) Form wise: Tai Chi (CMC) and 7 section chain whip. (the nine section is too long for my ADD mind)

Least favorite: Blue belt staff form.

Somewhere in my archives there's an old list from 1980s of which SD routines were for each rank. I have so much stuff, it would take a while to find it, if I still have it and hopefully didn't throw it away.

[brucereiter]

Originally Posted by themeecer

Bruce,

Your form looks very different than the way I was taught. I'm not being critical, I'm just surprised at the differences. Some of it may be due to your personal nuances, and some due to how it has transformed from teacher to teacher.

meecer,

no worries ... i put the videos up for critique and conversation ...
i am sure most of the differences are my own personal nuances.
the way i approach hsing i that i learned in sd is very different than the way i was taught. i have changed my approach to hsing i to reflect my current understanding of what hsing i is and have been influenced by a few outside teachers lessons along the way. as my current understanding changes my form changes.


what are some differences in your approach?
did you like or dislike what you saw?

[Golden Tiger]

Originally Posted by Bruce

what are some differences in your approach?

I too noticed some differences, not a critique mind you.

After the first crushing hand, step back- we do two punches were as you do one before pivoting and crossing the hands.

After cannon fist, step back- you do either chopping fist or 3-body, we do crossing fist (right hand up) the 3-body or chopping.

Before the turn, you do cannon fist-we do stopping fist.

[Baqualin]

This is more like it...thanks Sal!!
KC it's ok to disagree with me!! But 64 is the CMC form......with slight changes...one change GMS made was the speed of the form.....slowed it way down....we're taught 25 min. to complete, CMC taught it as 10 min. one reason he gave was to increase strength & sensitivity. Don't know if this came from GMIe or something he did himself.
He did say that it was GMIe who taught him Baqua & Tai Chi.....he spoke of doing Tai Chi on the beach when he was a kid and how it made him feel.
BQ

[Sal Canzonieri]

Originally Posted by Baqualin

This is more like it...thanks Sal!!
KC it's ok to disagree with me!! But 64 is the CMC form......with slight changes...one change GMS made was the speed of the form.....slowed it way down....we're taught 25 min. to complete, CMC taught it as 10 min. one reason he gave was to increase strength & sensitivity. Don't know if this came from GMIe or something he did himself.
He did say that it was GMIe who taught him Baqua & Tai Chi.....he spoke of doing Tai Chi on the beach when he was a kid and how it made him feel.
BQ

But Chinese people at that time did not teach taji to children (nor XY ad BG), it was considering detrimental to their health and development. It was for people over 25 or so, because you needed at least 10 years experience stretching and developing your tendons and ligaments via a long fist martial arts.
I have never seen except in modern times any Chinese master of internal martial arts that didn't first learn a long fist martial art and THEN transitioned into an internal one.