Is Shaolin-Do for real?

[Judge Pen]

Originally Posted by RJ797

What to do from here? Teach proper structure and mechanics. The Shaolin-Do teachers who have relied on the grandiose stories about lineage and 900 forms will probably struggle because they most likely don't really have any true understanding of fundamentals.

Unfortunately, our system is over populated with people who just want to see the next form and not really develop an understanding of the basics. Too much of our system's politics have revolved around repeating the sequence of moves Sin The' has shown and then arguing about whether someone did the right move. Not whether or not what they did made any martial sense.

Sin The' has never been good at doing the exact same thing each time but the Bill Leonards and the Soards of our world insist the only "right" way is the way they believe they were shown - regardless of quality. Bill Leonard is a great fighter but his understanding and performance of Tai Chi and Pa Kua is not very good. Yet, most of our system will blindly follow and do what they are being taught regardless of the obvious fact that it's not very good.

So, what's going to happen? The people who questioned, analyzed and taught solid mechanics but downplayed the "stories" - may survive. Those who built a house cards with the stories and blindly taught material they didn't really understand are going to have a tough time.

Very well said.

[RJ797]

It was very obvious. By teaching huge blocks of material in a crowded room in an absurdly small amount of time, all the focus was on memorizing the moves with no time or interest in making sense out of and developing skill with anything.

[MasterKiller]

Originally Posted by RJ797

It was very obvious. By teaching huge blocks of material in a crowded room in an absurdly small amount of time, all the focus was on memorizing the moves with no time or interest in making sense out of and developing skill with anything.

If you watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOi63m2nwbM

and can't tell it was made up in someone's living room while NCIS was on, you deserve to be duped.

[Lucas]

my favorite is when he slaps his knee over and over.

[Yao Sing]

Yeah that's a knee slapin' good form right there I tell ya what.

Better yet how about using 2 canes like tonfa?

[Old Man]

1992. The vs Hamilton lawsuit. Hiang The produce in court all the original note he have from 1960's before he leave Indonesia. Every piece his brother claim to make up, Hiang have note to prove him wrong. The record are seal but Hiang go against his brother and stand for the true.

[kungfujunky]

Originally Posted by Old Man

1992. The vs Hamilton lawsuit. Hiang The produce in court all the original note he have from 1960's before he leave Indonesia. Every piece his brother claim to make up, Hiang have note to prove him wrong. The record are seal but Hiang go against his brother and stand for the true.

What this illustrates to me is that The lied on the stand to try to uphold his copy write claim...which tells me he is just a money grubber and a bully to those that see through his deception and try to do things right by leaving his organization.

There are some exceptional instructors in the art of shaolin-do...who focus on the concepts behind the material and try to bring it out.

But they are a small percentage. The schools out west will have a hard time surviving after this.

[MasterKiller]

Originally Posted by kungfujunky

What this illustrates to me is that The lied on the stand to try to uphold his copy write claim...

Yeah, which is more likely? A fantastical oral history uncorroborated by any historical record anywhere or Sin The' lied to a bunch of whiteys to make a few bucks? Boy, that's a tough one....

[RenDaHai]

So, basically, has his own greed undone himself?

Let me get this straight:

In an effort to retroactively copyright something that he taught (which is already crazy) so he can get more money, he has destroyed his reputation and probably lost a lot of followers and even more money in the process?

Is that about right?

[LFJ]

Wondering if this thread can now be moved to the Non-Chinese MA section of the site. It doesn't belong or deserve to be always at the top of the Shaolin Kung Fu forum.

[Leto]

Originally Posted by MasterKiller

Yeah, which is more likely? A fantastical oral history uncorroborated by any historical record anywhere or Sin The' lied to a bunch of whiteys to make a few bucks? Boy, that's a tough one....

A little of column A, a little of column B...
My guess is it was a small, probably unremarkable school in the Chinese community of Bandung, that no one would ever have heard of except the people who went there. A small amount of basic material from that school (as much as an 18 year old could have mastered over the course of his adolescent years), and a lot of physical conditioning. And the mystique of being from Asia and knowing martial arts in Kentucky in 1965. Mix in a childhood fantasy of being a shaolin master, a somewhat entitled life as the son of an extremely wealthy family (who could afford to send all their children overseas for university educations, buy them real rolex watches, get them private lessons in martial arts, etc), and we have all the ingredients for the creation of the myth of shaolin-do.
I know all his original students claim Sin The was extremely skilled back in the day, but could it just have been that he was in such great shape and was faster, stronger, and more flexible than all of them, with a small amount of basic training? Having attended a few of his seminars 10 years ago or so, I didn't see any of the amazing skill everyone attributes to him. I've never seen a video of him where I was impressed by his performance. I've seen the old pictures of him looking ripped and doing impressive poses, and I probably would have been impressed by him, too, if I had seen him that way.
But I really feel like all he does now is find instructional books and videos from China, or wherever, and try to teach that material in seminars. Some of the seminars might be things he invented, like that golden leopard form seems to me, based on misguided ideas about pressure point fighting.
I would like to find out I am wrong, and there really is a lineage for all the stuff he shows, but the point is moot since he and most of his schools have done such a poor job actually teaching that material.

example: I learned more about taijiquan from reading cheng man ching's book on his 37 posture form and yang chengfu's traditional yang style book than I did in my class. I corrected a lot of mistakes and incorrect postures that I was taught. Same with Jian Rong Qiao's baguazhang. Once I found out that this was the form I had learned (or was supposed to be), I fixed my form by reading Jiang Rong Qiao's baguazhang lian xi fa and watching videos of people performing it. How I was taught was so messed up!
I am doing the same with my xingyiquan five elements.
As for the lower belt through black tiger forms, I am going with my gut on those and modifying them for myself as I see fit, based on my experience in other martial arts and the little traditional shaolin I have learned. If there is something profound in those forms, I wasn't taught them correctly to see it, and if Sin The invented them all, then I probably have as much or more experience than he did when he created them and feel like I am qualified to experiment with them a bit. Why bother? I actually like the forms, they just need some "tweaking". Until I meet a "real" shaolin teacher, this will have to do for my external practice, along with the shorin ryu I've been practicing all these years and supplemental instruction videos on Chinese martial arts.

[RJ797]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

So, basically, has his own greed undone himself?

Let me get this straight:

In an effort to retroactively copyright something that he taught (which is already crazy) so he can get more money, he has destroyed his reputation and probably lost a lot of followers and even more money in the process?

Is that about right?

I say that's about right.

If you read the deposition he said he didn't want to appear "boastful" so he didn't tell us he invented some of the material. It seems to me that laying claim to being the Shaolin Grand Master is slightly more "boastful" than saying "Here are some developmental techniques I put together to help you get the point where I can teach you some more advanced ancient forms."

Obviously, some person invented all the forms all of us do in any art. I'm not sure Sin The' invented anything he taught. Why go through the effort of putting something together and memorizing it when you can pull from thousands of books?

Most of the time we saw something new people outside the art would claim we made it up. We were accused of making up Hua Fist until someone outside the system discovered the books.

Some of the forms I saw were so poor I was sure they were just made up the morning of the seminar - but then the books showed up. Some of the forms I thought were solid and for lack of a better explanation "felt" ancient haven't shown up in books yet. The 10 worst things I saw came straight out of books. Those Golden Leopards are pretty good for developing rapid striking ability - but they can be a little weird - and they came out of a book.

Some of the Mantis we were shown is just awful - straight out of a book.

We will never know what he learned in Indonesia versus what he took from books here. However, lying under oath to protect a business arrangement that was built on lies to begin with says a lot about a person.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

One thing I would like to comment on; In Indonesia, it is commonly held that they have preserved the original Shaolin, especially the combat aspect, where it has been lost in China. At least, this is what they say there.

They don't necessarily care about the choreography of the form. It's all about application and usage there. So you have all of these Indonesian families, with Chinese arts in them. They have all their own forms, and may don't even have forms, just drills and such.

When they look at stuff, it's on an individual technique, by technique basis, combined with the stepping, angles of entry and how the defender responds and manages his opponent's structure. What the form looks like is irrelevant.

I have had the opportunity to compare the stuff I have from the DeThouars family Kuntao Silat, to the stuff Sal Canzonieri does. Technology wise, there is an uncanny and high degree of over lap. Since Sal is one of the more known authorities on Shaolin Kung Fu in the US, I was able to come to the conclusion that the Old School Shaolin is alive and well in Indonesian lineages, even if all the forms themselves are unique.

The Chinese arts, over all seem to be much more focused on maintaining the original 'Style of Expression', than anything. They identify the art by the curriculum, and the choreography of the forms in the curriculum. So someone looking at an Indonesian Kung Fu line, from a Chinese perspective is going to see all these new forms ans a completely made up fraudulent system.

An Indonesian on the other hand, because they are much more 'Zoomed in', and looking at the details much, much closer will not care about all the recently made up forms and instead see real Shaolin. After all, they make up and forget forms all the time over there. To them it is just the package, not the contents.

Just a thought, when people feel Sin The' made up routines somehow mean his Shaolin, is not Shaolin. You have to look closer. Look at the strategy of usage, the way the art steps to position itself, the angles it uses to enter in, how the art receives and redirects energy. You have to ask if it uses the same types of lever based takedowns as old Shaolin, as well as the same types of uprooting. You have to look at the types of body mechanics used. Are they common Shaolin Temple internal external body methods? or are they somehting else?

Then you also have to consider the fact that many, many schools from Shaolin have lost all or part of the above, so you need to look at Shaolin Do and ask if you can at least see the shadows of what WAS there at one time. This may be a clue to how much original training Sin The actually had.

If you look to other arts out of Indonesia (like the DeThouars stuff) that is well known for preserving Old School Shaolin skills, and you can clearly see these skills are lacking in SD, you may want to consider moving on to more complete transmissions in order to fill in the missing pieces.

[LaterthanNever]

"I've been frequenting these forums for years and understand all the criticisms (and agree with many of them)"

and you STILL study Shaolin-Do?

[Yao Sing]

I haven't seen a whole lot of SD but what I have seen even the techniques look shady. What I saw of the Mantis set was a form full of finger poking with mantis hands, something you rarely see in standard NPM.

What do other stylists see in the SD forms? Do the Bagua moves look like "real" Bagua?

Maybe I've only seen the made up sets and there's more traditional stuff that's rarely shown, I don't know.