Shaolin Pao Quan - what a mess

[Xian]

Originally Posted by LFJ

This video would be more relevant in the thread on Shaolin Xin Yi related sets.

That set is attributed to Ji Longfeng (aka Ji Jike, 1588-1662) of Shanxi, which you can clearly see the style bears similarity to Xingyiquan and the Shaolin Xinyiquan material, both of which are said to have been influenced (created) by him.

Ah sorry I just put the video in this thread in reference to the name of the form. So one could say more something like "Xinyi Pao Quan "? I am hoping one can tell a bit more in the relevant thread.


Thanks,
Xian

[LFJ]

Paoquan is a common term, but by the looks of it, I don't think it has anything to do with Shaolin Paoquan. More in the Xinyi thread.

[Matthew]

Originally Posted by LFJ

i dont think wu gulun practiced with the small frame structure at all. i think others who have trained with his son, wu shanlin, have said that he didnt practice that way either.

not sure who started it, but if shi xingxing (zhang qinghe) practiced that way and taught it to shi dejian and shi defang (wu nanfang), it may have even come from his first master, ven. shi chunqian- head monk of jingang monastery who later encouraged him to study from wu shanlin.

Interesting, but which students said this? Was it his longer term students is probably most relevant, as Wu Shanlins very own sons passed this "small frame" onto master wu himself before learning from Xing Xing.


I don't think Shi De Gen or shorter term students would be a good reflection of the core style and were less likely to have been taught the core shenfa.

[Xian]

Shaolin Zhou Tong Pao Quan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm1E0h4gYj0&feature=plcp

Shàolín Zhōu Dòng Pào Quán
This form was almost lost and today is rarely seen.
According to tradition this form was passed down to the monks at Shaolin by Master Zhao Tong (the better known Ying Zhua Pao Quan form is also attributed to Zhou Tong).
Shaolin tradition says that Zhou Tong learned the martial arts and military skills passed down from three kingdoms period General Jiang Wei as a Child in the Tongguan area of Shaanxi After this he Journeyed to Shaolin where he studied under master Tan Zheng Fang. Later he became known by the name "Iron Arm" Zhou Tong and travelled around mastering a great number of esoteric martial skills which he passed down to his students. Among his students were many famous heroes including several of the outlaw heroes of Liang Shan (the Water Margin) such as "Leopard Head" Lin Chong, "Jade Unicorn" Lu Junyi, "Sickly Officer" Sun Li, and "Pilgrim"/"Tiger Fighting Hero" Wu Song.
However he is best known as the teacher of great General Yue Fei who was his last and best student to Whom he Taught Archery, Boxing, Stick Fighting, and military strategy among other things.
Besides being remembered at Shaolin he is also said to have passed on Chuo Jiao and Fanzi Quan to Yue Fei and several of the Liangshan Heroes. He is said to have Learned Chuo Jiao from it's creator, Taoist Deng Liang. Besides this he also is supposed to have passed on many forms of martial Qigong and to have taught Yue Fei a system of Qinna that he used as the basis for his Eagle Claw Methods
However Most of What Is traditionally told of him appears to Be from Ming and Qing dynasty popular novels.
According to Song Dynasty material he was Yue Fei's second teacher in the military arts from his first teacher he had learned military spear methods and from Zhou Tong he learned Archery and along with military strategy. Yue Fei was said to be Zhou Tong's favorite student to whom he gave two of his best bows. After his death Yue Fei mourned him greatly offering sacrifices of wine and meat twice a month at his grave and firing three arrows in his memory each time.
So Basically in the early material Zhou Tong is only described as a local hero from the Anyang area of Henan province(not Shaanxi) who was a teacher of Archery and military skills to Yue Fei. There is no mention of any Kungfu until Hundreds of Years later.

Shaolin Lao Pao Quan from a competition:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbruVoBstoc&feature=plcp


Shaolin Xiao Pao Quan: (Looks very similar to how Deyang does it I think)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O3pu3RedWs&feature=plcp


Dejian doing Pao Quan:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQGeukYWlEI&feature=plcp


Best regards,
Xian

[Xian]

Nothing on that Zhou Tong Pao Quan ?

@by the way.

I reread that thread for the third time in the last months I guess. Do I understand it correctly that the Xiao Pao Quan(Liu Zhenhais Pao Quan Er and San Lu) are basically from a sub system which was called Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan ?

And what about the Ying Zhao Pao Quan mentioned earlier by Sal ? I mentioned Liu Zhen Hais book saying that the Ying Zhao is the Yi Lu, followed by the VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai and then Er and San(Xiao Pao Quan).
Very interesting but still a bit confusing.


Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by Xian

Nothing on that Zhou Tong Pao Quan ?

It looks like it must be another sect's version of the first part of Tishou Paoquan. The individual techniques are different but the sequence is roughly the same, if you look closely, enough to assume they are related.

Do I understand it correctly that the Xiao Pao Quan(Liu Zhenhais Pao Quan Er and San Lu) are basically from a sub system which was called Shaolin Ti Shou Pao Quan ?

Yes. Put together it makes one long set, usually broken into three roads, of which the third is rarely seen. As I remember, his Erlu VCD showed the first 2/3 or so, and the Sanlu finished. It has been a while since I've seen it though.

I mentioned Liu Zhen Hais book saying that the Ying Zhao is the Yi Lu, followed by the VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai and then Er and San(Xiao Pao Quan).

"The VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai"... Wie ich mich erinnere, war es das, was er Dapaoquan genannt hat, und was Shi Deyang Xiaopaoquan nennt, und nicht Yingzhao Paoquan. Nicht wahr?

In any case, that shorter set is a modern one, created in the 1900's by Shi Yongxiang, the monk who gave all his notes to Shi Deqian to write the Shaolin Encyclopedia, as a simplification of an older set.

[RenDaHai]

I think the Zhou TOng looks familiar... I think I know the area it may be from, looks like nanyuan pai.... Also it has a similarity with YingZHua pao Quan in the way it uses GuiBUQiXing-Danbian, Unusual for a Shaolin form, but common in other styles.


@LFJ

Hey J, any more info on this Shi YongXiang? (Disciples, masters, etc.)

[Xian]

Originally Posted by LFJ

It looks like it must be another sect's version of the first part of Tishou Paoquan. The individual techniques are different but the sequence is roughly the same, if you look closely, enough to assume they are related.

Yeah I also work on the Pao Quan so I saw the similarities. It looks basically like a shorter version I guess, with some moves applied unsually(at least for me).
I was interested in the History TeaSerpenti researched with it. I mean I know that many arts are attributed to famous persons. But I think calling my art Zhou Tong Pao Quan is really a claim.

"The VCD Yilu auf Liu Zhenhai"... Wie ich mich erinnere, war es das, was er Dapaoquan genannt hat, und was Shi Deyang Xiaopaoquan nennt, und nicht Yingzhao Paoquan. Nicht wahr?

What the ? First time reading it I thought I might have confused English with German while writing, wouldnt have been impossible Google Translator ?

Nein, ich suche eben das Zitat von Sal heraus:

Originally Posted by Sal Canzonieri

2. I have a book by Liu Zhenhai (I have many by him) and one of them has three sets in it of Pao Quan, which are labelled Yi Lu, Er Lu, and San Lu Pao Quan!
The book is Shaolin Quan Gun Dao Xie Tao Lu Jing Cui, 1990, isbn 7563901140.

Okay, so I dug them up today and have been comparing them to the videos.

- The Yi Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is exactly his Ying Zhua Pao Quan set, with no changes:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eEUjrwC7Ac

- The Er Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a much more detailed version of the Tagou Dao Pao Quan set (which is the Yi Lu set in his videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VWQ6SfiwFw

- The San Lu Pao Quan set shown (drawings) is a full 76 posture set / 139 movements, and is the most complete version I have ever seen of the Xiao Pao Quan set (Tagou), much more detailed and with all the transition movements shown that aren't even in his VCD videos of the set (his Er Lu and San Lu videos):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgP2UqmLwpA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EN5xs4UT79c

In my opinion, this is the definitive version of the long Pao Quan set, much more complete, smooth, and coherent than the Tagou version or of any videos.

By the way, Liu Zhenhai says that the Eagle Claw Pao Quan set dates back from the Song Dynasty and was created by a monk named Zhao.
Also, he states that the Siezing Hand Pao Quan set comes down from the teachings of high monk Miao Ju.

I spoke of this qoute from Sal. See what I mean ?

In any case, that shorter set is a modern one, created in the 1900's by Shi Yongxiang, the monk who gave all his notes to Shi Deqian to write the Shaolin Encyclopedia, as a simplification of an older set.

Sorry maybe my post was not clear. I did spoke of Liu Zhenhais Xiao Pao Quan Yi Lu as shown in VCD. As far as I could figure out his Pao Quan Er and San are basically Xiao Pao Quan.

Thanks and Best regards,
Xian

[LFJ]

@Xian: Mein Deutsch ist immer noch sehr schlecht, weil ich letzte Woche gerade angefangen habe, Deutsch zu lernen!

I see now, because I didn't have the book. But it sounds like it looks like this:

According to the book:

Yilu = Yingzhao Paoquan
Erlu = Dapaoquan
Sanlu = Xiaopaoquan (in full)

According to the VCDs:

Yilu = Dapaoquan
Erlu = 1st 2/3 of Xiaopaoquan
Sanlu = final 1/3 of Xiaopaoquan
And Yingzhao Paoquan stands alone.

Of course, the book makes more sense, and shows more detail than the VCDs. The three sets in full should be separate lines like this. But not that they are "roads" of the same system.

[LFJ]

Originally Posted by RenDaHai

Hey J, any more info on this Shi YongXiang? (Disciples, masters, etc.)

I think all the info I had on him came from the Encyclopedia or was related to it. But I seem to have accidentally erased it from this computer. I just have an empty folder pointing to it. I had an electronic version. It must be on an external harddrive somewhere.

The main thing I remember reading was that he was in Shaolin prior to the 1928 incident, and retained his information all of which in the 80's he passed onto Shi Deqian to compile in the Encyclopedia, and performed many of the sets as reference for the drawing and writing the steps.

In the intro to the short Paoquan set it said he created it as an introductory set for his students. At some point in the Encyc. it may have named some of them. Don't remember. Will have to look through it again.

[Xian]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RsKSs...Zr5abQ&index=1

Looks like he is using claws in some positions.


Best regards,
Xian

[SHemmati]

Originally Posted by LFJ

I think all the info I had on him came from the Encyclopedia or was related to it. But I seem to have accidentally erased it from this computer. I just have an empty folder pointing to it. I had an electronic version. It must be on an external harddrive somewhere.

read or get its OCRed&Bookmarked PDF electronic version from here:

Encyclopedia of Shaolin Martial Arts, 4-volume set + searchable text & English index bookmarks

[The 1st one]

Originally Posted by SHemmati

read or get its OCRed&Bookmarked PDF electronic version from here:

Encyclopedia of Shaolin Martial Arts, 4-volume set + searchable text & English index bookmarks

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[SHemmati]

Originally Posted by The 1st one

hey brother its been so long since u've loged in to youtube...

hey there,
thanks, i replied on your profile!