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Kristoffer
07-02-2001, 01:35 PM
.

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

Repulsive Monkey
07-02-2001, 03:06 PM
...give it a miss if I was you. There's more effective arts around.

honorisc
07-02-2001, 03:29 PM
Awesome fighting potential if you have innovativeness. Good for increased awareness and appreciation of life~ my say.

Very some such,perhaps might have been, likely say some, some not.

Sil Lum Palm
07-02-2001, 05:29 PM
Karate can be a great art if your teacher has good teaching qualities. Karate is allways enhanced my Internal exercises. Corporate some Chi Gung exercises, and maybe a little chin na and you'll have yourself a package.

phantom
07-02-2001, 06:27 PM
I think the vast majority of karate styles will not be very effective against someone who has some fighting training. I feel that kyokushinkai is an exception to the rule. Some kyokushinkai practitioners have faired well against some of the best kinds of fighters there are, including Muay Thai and wing chun guys. I believe that Tae Kwon Do and Ed Parker's Kenpo can do a good job of helping you to improve upon another stlye. I do not think that they are very effective in and of themselves, however. They definitely would not be a good art to start off with, IMHO. Peace. :D

JerryLove
07-02-2001, 07:07 PM
"Some kyokushinkai practitioners have faired well against some of the best kinds of fighters there are, including Muay Thai and wing chun guys."

This begs several questions....

What criteria are you using to determing that "Muay Thai and Wing Chun guys" are "some of the best kinds of fighters"?

And *when* have "Some Kyokushinaki practitioners" faught such people, and what were their credientials?

phantom
07-02-2001, 07:20 PM
Okay Jerry, now I go to admit that I do not know all of the details. However, three of Oyama's top student put themselves through the training regimen of the Thai's, yet they stuck to Kyokushin techniques. They fought three Muay thai guys, and two of them won.Muay Thai is recognized as one of the best striking arts there is, which is why I feel they are among the best fighters out there. Also, I have heard about a whole team of kyokushin guys who went up against a whole team of wing chun guys. When the Wing Chun guys tried to block The kyokushin guys' punches, they broke their arms. A kyokushin guy also told me that he defeated his wing chun instructor by throwing a series of low kicks against him. I do not know the guy personally, however. I just talked with him on a discussion board. Peace. :D

Budokan
07-02-2001, 09:37 PM
I like it. It's not ineffective and it's as good an art as the teacher and the student taking it.

That's right. It's the person, not the style, stupid.

K. Mark Hoover

phantom
07-02-2001, 11:46 PM
Budokan, I will have you know that I studied ****o-ryu for 4 years, was about ready to go for my first degree brown belt in it, and still did not feel that I could take care of myself very well. The school was very sport-oriented,so maybe that was what the problem was. However, the vast majority of karate schools in the United States also seem to be very sport-oriented. I have read about many matches between karate people and kung fu people, as well as between karate people and Muay Thai people. The kyokushin practitioners were the only karate people that ever won against the thais and kung fu practitioners.If you can cite examples of other karate styles doing well against trained fighters, then please enlighten me. I am not trying to flame here. I am just trying to get to the bottom of the truth. Peace :D

phantom
07-03-2001, 12:03 AM
Oh how I wish there was a way that I could post my viewpoints without risking offending anyone. :(

Budokan
07-03-2001, 02:47 AM
If you studied ****o-ryu for 4 years and still didn't feel like you could defend yourself then you were in a bad school. And you are right, most MA schools ARE sport oriented; it's tough to find a good one.

But that shouldn't be viewed as a failure of ****o-ryu or karate in general--or of yourself. ;)

K. Mark Hoover

omegapoint
07-03-2001, 05:12 AM
Non-Ryukyuan ****o Ryu is a joke. It's like Japanese Goju with 50 Katas. How could an "art" like that ever be effective unless you were a good street fighter before entering it. It's just another "broke" version of Okinawan Karate (Shuri Te+Naha Te), Japanacised and cannibalized to make money on the free-market. Why don't you Einsteins research this isht before you take it? ****o Ryu is almost exclusively a competition style, with low stances and inefficient fighting principles. Please get some semblance of a clue before you spout. Remember RIF-Reading Is FUNdaMental!!! By the way Mas Oyama's Kyokushinkai is broke-assed Shotokan (Japanese Sport Shorin Ryu) with no more 100 man Kumite, so it's just like most Japanese Karate, useless in a real altercation (unless your fighting a know-nothing)!! Peac... Hold up, I'm not gonna waste that on a perpetually tempestuous dullard!!! :mad:

omegapoint
07-03-2001, 05:23 AM
You idiots on this forum buff each others apples and give props to the most inane shiznit!!! I enjoy mentally engaging people and that seems to be lacking here. First one guy says that words are more physically painful than beat downs, bullets and bombs, then some Mensa member puts down Karate 'cuz he got duped into taking Japanese ****o Ryu"... No wonder the world is F'ed up, if you people are helping it to work then mankind is DOOMED.

Even these freakin' POLYTRICKtians that run isht have got you tricked into believing you're somehow not in Pharoahs Egypt or Caeser's Rome! It's what you deserve, you'll never leave the U.S.A let alone your hometown or state, so you go on believin' you got it all figured out. Give those in power your money, mind and soul and perpetuate the STATUS QUO...DUMB FizUCKS!!! Of course this is not an indictment of everyone on this forum. The microcosm is a reflection of the Macrocosm, so only 90% of you all need be concerned...AAAAAAAAAAAAthptpppthftht :p !!!

Kristoffer
07-03-2001, 11:43 AM
riiiiiight, chill everyone? :D
I am just interested in how other kung fu students feel about karate. Uhmm, ok, so how is the Okinawan Karate (Shuri Te+Naha Te) different from the stuff we see out there now? is Shuri Te+Naha Te a rare art to find?

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

Budokan
07-04-2001, 01:16 AM
I think so. There isn't any one person or group like , say, JKA, that promotes them. I do think they're still taught overseas but they haven't really gotten the run they deserve, IMO.

K. Mark Hoover

rogue
07-04-2001, 05:26 AM
Yo Omega, that Angle Dust is bad for ya dude! :rolleyes:


Rogue, you're an @ss!! Watchman

Adventure is just a romantic name for trouble. It sounds swell when you write about it, but it's hell when you meet it face to face in a dark and lonely place.
Louis L'Amour

BTW, did I mention that Rogue was an @ss? Watchman

omegapoint
07-04-2001, 06:21 AM
Rogue: No dust, just testosterone that sometimes makes me "testy". I apologize for the rant, as it ain't y'alls fault for knowing what you know. There is a reason America isn't in the top ten of nations as far as grade school education is concerned.
What is Shuri Te and Naha Te? Jesus I hope you're not a Karateka. If so then that's scary!!! Let me simplify this. Shuri Te= Shorin Ryu, Isshin Ryu and its Japanese offshoots (ex. Shotokan) (basically) and Naha Te= Okinawan Goju Ryu, and Uechi ryu (Pangai Noon) and its offshoots (ex.Japanese Goju Ryu). Shuri and Naha are names of cities (villages in Okinawa). Te means "hand" or "hand art". Kyokushinkai is a mixture of Shuri and Naha Te with an emphasis on Funakoshi's "modernized" Shorin Ryu(which means Shaolin Way) called Shotokan. Another misunderstood style is Kenpo. It is NOT originally an American contrivance and in fact Mas Oyama's (Kyokushinkai's founder) took Chinese Kempo as his first style. Okinawan Kenpo was around long before Ed Parker or James Mitose! Kenpo means "Chuan Fa" in Japanese and I think that my next point is apparent. From China to Okinawa and Japan, to Hawaii to the mainland USA. The original Kenpo was an original art, but it isn't what Mitose and Parker "reformulated". Hope this helps, you level-headed intellectuals!Later...
:cool:

Daedalus
07-04-2001, 10:41 PM
I agree whole-heartedly!

As far as karate goes though, I'd say that 75% of what's being taught in the U.S. right now is the watered down stuff that came out of post WWII Japan/Okinawa.

Why?

Let's think about it. If you just got your @$$ kicked, would you turn around and teach all your fighting secrets to the guy who just stomped you?
No! But you'd take his money and teach him a bunch of crap instead. Just like the Okinawans did to American servicemen after WWII.

I think that most karate styles are still effected by this deception today. Those who are followers will never grow beyond it; those who are innovators already have.

oldwolf
07-05-2001, 12:19 AM
You are obviously well read and researched and I believe a crane stylist, despite well thought out replies on this and other boards you view is blinkered by the very brand loyalty you accuse Karateka of.

I am glad, that after 26 years of misguided karate of various varieies, ****oryu (Tani Ha, Tsukada), Goju ryu (M,Higoana), Kyokushin (S.Arneil), Sankukai (Butch White) etc, I have come on the internet and been enlightened by a practitioner of a style I claim my heritage from.
In spite of the ineffective styles I have trained in I have managed to survive so far and must have been lucky in the confrontations I have been in as a bodyguard / bouncer and some time bare knuckle fighter, Karma neh!

I am enlightened, I will not sin again.

Please feel free to point out my nearest crane stylist (that you recommend) that I may be enlightened further.

"And the crowd called out for more"

omegapoint
07-05-2001, 02:01 AM
Old Wolf: Sir, your fighting lineage is very admirable. I didn't meant to say all of the styles you've been involved with were ineffective, just that some may be modern interpretations of a complete, older artform. Kyokushinkai is an awesome form of fighting as is Okinawan ****o Ryu. I haven't had vast experience with Japanese ****o Ryu stylists, but it seems to be an effective system. You are probably also a prime example of an artist's vs. the art's effectiveness. I would gather being a bouncer would entail some street experience and size to boot. Thank you for the compliment on my knowledge, and I agree I can be prejudicial when it comes to my interpretation of Martial Art.

I don't mean to downgrade others, but lack of knowledge is one of my pet peeves. That is a flaw I need desperately to work on! I myself am far from ILLuminated or enlightened, and on the contrary am wishing to dispose of convention and eventually interpret for myself. "From the void springs everything", is a maxim I wish to embrace and understand. So as you can see I have a looooong way to go.

As for Crane stylists, anyone versed in Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu or even Okinawan Goju Ryu should be able to help you or at least point you in the right direction. Also, anyone with Fukien white Crane GongFu knowledge would be ideal. I don't know of any practitioners off-hand on the British Isles, but I can ask some people I know if they can help me help you.

Peace, and I hope you find what you're looking for in MAs and life.Have a great week/weekend!!! :D

oldwolf
07-05-2001, 10:30 PM
Omegapoint, you are forgiven!

I do know of several 'white crane stylists' in the UK, but they are laughable, I reckon they jumped on the band wagon.

Not long back from a lomg weekend training with Ryozu Tsukada (****oryu) which we spent on the Bunkai of Tomari Rohai, Itosu Rohai, Goju Sesan and Matsumura Sesan. Although I had worked on these Kata before what was refreshing was Tsukada Senseis intimate knowledge of the subtle (and sometimes not so) differences and the nuances of the different schools. Bunkai, bunkai and then more Bunkai. Good training.
Also recently been training with a Shotkan godan under Taji Kase, who recognise the limitation of their style but boy can they make it work for them.
Train hard, train soft, but train. :D

"And the crowd called out for more"

omegapoint
07-06-2001, 02:55 AM
Sesan is one of my favorite forms! It has numerous hidden grappling techs. Your style of ****o Ryu practices Matsumura Sesan? Awesome!!! What is the difference between Goju's Sesan and Matsumura's Sesan. Rohai is a beautiful form, I wonder if it's similar to the Shorin version(s) ?
I think I remember of one Dojo my Sensei did a seminar at a few years back. This was in the late 80's but the dude might still be around. If I remember correctly it was in Hatfield, England, but I can't remember any instructor or school names. I'll ask Kyoshi Lindsey this weekend when I train.
In Sensei Lindsey's organization (Kokusai ShuriTe Karate/Kobujutsu Rengo Kai, All Shorin Ryu Style) we are continuously learning and researching the White Crane aspects of our style. He corresponds and trains with a Sifu Wong of Fujian White Crane in NYC. Many people from multiple styles, Kyokushin, Goju Ryu, Shotokan, ****o Ryu, all styles of Karate, study under Lindsey, and many travel hundreds of miles to do so. He is truly a hidden font of fighting info! He can be reached at this address: Ronald Lindsey, PO Box 689, Bastrop, Tx. 78602. Ask about our professional journal "Maishin Shorinji" and any other questions you may have. The info in the journal is history, strategy, and bunkai, as well as a reflections section which concentrates on a notable Okinawan stylist. Unlike Black Belt mag it is very well written with no advertisements. Peace and I hope this helps... :)

oldwolf
07-07-2001, 09:36 PM
Hi OP,
Difficult to explain in any detail over the net without writing out each Kata, move for move.

Basic differences, Goju sesan is very short and is performed in sanchin dachi, the moves are similar but the central section of the Matsumura version is missing and of course the matsumura version is performed in ayooba(sp?) dachi.
The versions of Rohai, I know know five versions called Rohai, the most different ones are the Itosu Rohai sho, ni and sandan. Some moves are similar to the Tomari version and also another version I learned from a goju kai instructor.

"And the crowd called out for more"

Kristoffer
07-08-2001, 07:47 AM
hi Omega,
actually, im not a karateka. Im a Shuai Shiao and Gong Fu student. I just wanna know what people think of karate. thank you

~K~
"maybe not in combat..... but think of the chicks man, the chicks!"

omegapoint
07-08-2001, 10:05 AM
O.W.: Rogue asked a question about differences in Isshin Ryu Seisan and other Seisans and I gave him an outline of the steps in Matsumura Seisan. Maybe you've already peeped, but it's on this same O.R.A. section of KFO if you're interested. Our Rohai Kata are Rohai Jo, Rohai Chu and Rohai Ge. They are used to prepare the student for learning the Hakutsuru (White Crane) forms. The Rohai are very cool kata! Talk with ya' later... :D

omegapoint
07-08-2001, 10:20 AM
Wolf: The stance we use is called a Pinan Dachi. It's Matsumura's version of the forward or front stance. Also, we use an L-Stance in the middle segment of Seisan. Do you know of a site where I can see the steps for the Rohai you learned?

Kristoffer: What's up brother! Shuai Jiao is PHAT!! I have done Judo, Caique JiuJitsu (Rickson Gracie's Highest Ranking Black Belt) and wish there was a Shuai Jiao school near me! I wanna study it someday. I think that your original observation about the Sport Karate chicks was right on! Just look at Cynthia Rothrock's ass! ****!!!

There is real Karate out there though, and some of it is very Chinese in its approach to the MAs. I don't know about that Tournament stuff, man. Other than exposure, its only admirable attribute might be the FIIINE females that are part of the circuit. Later all... :)

Kempo Guy
07-23-2001, 10:51 PM
As for Karate being effective, I for one feel that is up to the teacher. I've been to many schools where I can honestly say they would not be able to fight their way out of a wet paper bag.

But on the other hand, I have been to several excellent schools. Many of these schools were from the old-school Okinawan styles, such as Uechi Ryu and the different Shorin Ryu lineages, such as Matsumura Seito and Ryute (formerly Ryukyu Kempo). I definitely found the way bunkai was taught in Ryukyu Kempo to be very effective.

As for Japanese Karate, there are many strong styles as well. I only have experience in a couple of these, namely Kyokushin and Ashihara (with a little bit of Shotokan). I think Kyokushin and Ashihara are very no-nonsense styles with very practical and effective techniques. Of course in Kyokushin there is a big emphasis on their Knockdown fighting, which is of course rule-bound. Otherwise it's an awesome style. Ashihara is a spin-off from Kyokushin with a bigger emphasis on self-defense and practicality.

I want to reiterate the fact that the effectiveness of most styles are dependent of the teacher.

Just my $0.02.

KG

phoenix-eye
07-24-2001, 01:55 AM
Oldwolf - nice to see another Scot on here.

Stranger
07-25-2001, 04:45 AM
omegapoint,

Kyokushin's goju influence is as significant as its shotokan influence. Many other arts influenced Mas Oyama's martial development and many found their way into the kyokushin curriculum (and others have disappeared in recent decades). Oyama personally used and taught extensive breathing techniques (ibuki, tensho, sanchin, etc.) and internal development exercises (various seated and squating breathing routines). His Karate is real deal, MANY of his students are the real deal, and MANY of the student's students are the real deal. Nobody is claiming it is traditonal, but to deny their track record is illogical. They blended old and new training techniques in an effort to create a Renaissance in Karate away from "physical education" Karate being promoted in Japan at the time. The 100 man kumite is not dead. Shigeru Oyama is one instructor I can name off the top of my head that has done the marathon more than once and actually twice in one week if I recall.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

omegapoint
07-26-2001, 03:58 AM
In our dojo,once a month, we have 2 Kyokushin guys who travel about 200 miles to train. They explained to me that the majority of the fighting techs come from the emphasis of the Northern Kata (Shotokan and/or Shorin Ryu derivation). They also learn Sotuhern Kata such as Tensho and Seipai, but explained that their style was much closer to its Shotokan lineage. Regardless, many knowledgeable Ryukyuan stylists feel that the designation of Shorei (NahaTe/Goju Ryu) and Shorin (ShuriTe/Shorin Ryu) are meaningless (they mean the same thing) and that all Ryukyuan Ti descended arts are basically the same. The only significant difference may be in later interpretations, and in the commercialization of the art. When was the last Hyakunin Kumite? Just wondering 'cause these dudes told me it was basically extinct.
I asked them why they were training Matsumura Seito and they explained that my instructors knowledge of bunkai and body-change was exceptional and it has made them much tighter fighters and competitors. Later...

Stranger
07-26-2001, 11:31 PM
In 1993-ish my friend (and on a few occasions me) were training under Sensei Tom DiGiaccomo (sp.?) from World Oyama Karate. During that time, they were trying to get together enough people for a hundred man kumite. It was not Tom doing it and, I don't know who he was recruiting for, but I believe it was happening at Shigeru Oyama's headquarters in NYC. I think that Shigeru Oyama did the two 100man kumite in a week, when he first set up shop in NY- which was quite some time ago. I don't know if the 1993 kumite was for him or not. I don't know how old he is.

I totally believe that a Kyokushin karateka who studied Traditional Okinawan Karate would learn quite a bit (of that we are in total agreement), however I choose not to discount the talents that Kyokushin fighters have on their own.

I don't get mad.
I get stabby.

Kempo Guy
07-27-2001, 01:41 AM
I believe the last Hyakunin Kumite was done by Hajim kazumi in March '99. They are done few and far between (at least in the IKO), as I believe the one prior to that was done by Francisco Filho in 1995. I believe he did this twice that year (in Feb. and March), one completed in Brazil and the other in Japan.

Hope this helps,

KG

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 08:09 PM
I have a few questions about karate that maybe sombody could help with but some have nothing to do with each other so I will list them in a 1,2,3 order

1. In CMA people tend to think that lineage is the most important thing and that if your lineage is good than your individual practice will be better than that of someone with a not so clear line. Do Karate practitioners think like this to? Or is the individual practice more important? (example of some kungfu guys thinking)

I trained with Sifu brown at usa kungfu and learned some kind of kungfu but I won a world championship with it.

(kungfu guy)
You don't have a solid lineage, so you must suck. I train under famous master x, I didn't win any fights cause I have never been in any but you must listen to me cause I have a solid lineage.

2. Is most Karate interchangable? Can a practitioner of Shotokan switch to another style with no problems as far as principles?

3. Is there any emphasis on leaning low stances like in some kungfu or are the stances higher?

4. What is the most important aspect of Karate fighting?


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Merryprankster
11-25-2001, 08:22 PM
Shaolin;

AMEN about the lineage thing. Sheesh.

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 09:03 PM
I know, I get sick of it myself. I feel lineage has little to do with what you can actually DO. It seems most people use it to validate their practice you'll here alot of kungfu guys say stuff like "Well my teachers, teachers, teacher won some lei tai challenges and private matches so I can fight". I was wondering does this happen often in JMA? Or do they "walk the walk" instead?


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

SaekSan
11-25-2001, 09:13 PM
It happens everywhere, I have several friends that study and/or teach Karate (different styles too) and they see the same problems as we do.

I was talking to a good friend of mine that teaches Pa Kua Chang and Hsing-I Chuan, that studied under a famous Master in Taiwan. We had the discussion about how in the last decade or so there has been this rise of the lineage issue. His words were "to guys like you and me what's important is how good our teacher is and if he can teach us the stuff, not the dead people on the wall"... how true, how true

:)

NorthernMantis
11-25-2001, 09:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I know, I get sick of it myself. I feel lineage has little to do with what you can actually DO [/quote]

Yeah but if your style came from Ronald McDonald then your not practicing a kug fu style.No matter how you are it's still McKwoon.

"Always be ready"

"right, that's it!you've insulted me, and you've insulted the shaolin temple!"-Fish of Furry

apoweyn
11-25-2001, 09:29 PM
NorthernMantis,

What does that mean though? Not trying to be argumentative, but I'm curious.

Say you've got a teacher who charges a lot, advertises a lot, has trophies all over the windows, has contracts, etc. (all stereotypical trademarks of the mcdojo). he teaches you the roundhouse kick. you practice it. you become good at it. now you can DO the round kick. well.

so how does lineage guarantee OR rule out anything?


stuart b.

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 09:33 PM
"Yeah but if your style came from Ronald McDonald then your not practicing a kug fu"

True in a way. Yet I personally don't see the point in claiming to teach Kungfu if you teach somthing else(but it does happen). Some people in Kungfu assume because they can trace a long lineage that they are combat superior to somone who can't. I am not sure which branch of Mantis you practice exactly(I don't know much about mantis) but let's say some from another line which taces back ****her(don't know if this could happen but stay with me) and they started telling you how to do things and that they were better than you, how would you deal with it? My guess would be in a put up or shut up attitude, right?

I don't have anything against history and lineage as I am activly researching my own. I have even posted what I know on my site.(for sure I left out most of the stuff I couldn't verify) What I am opposed to is people who don't fight and don't spar yet assume they can cause their martial grandfather did. :rolleyes:


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Colin
11-25-2001, 09:39 PM
I believe that lineage is probably more relavent in certain areas of CMS because some styles are incredibly complex, and the only way you can really know you are learning the true style, the way the originator intended it, is by having proof of lineage.
However being from good lineage in no way guarantees the person can fight, and people do claim this.
Put it this way my first kung fu sifu was a european & world heavyweight kung fu champion, but he is also 6' 6" tall and 250 pounds. While i'm 5'10" and 150 pounds. So I don't really fight like him!

Also lineage within Karate cannot really be as relevent being that Gichin Funakoshi only formulated modern karate less than 100 years ago.
Saying this I spent my first 4-5 years in MA's studing Shotokan under Kanasawa sensi, and he's the best!

If the sifu's good and he/she really knows their stuff then it doesn't matter who taught them.

Likewise a pet hate of mine.
Every person that EVER trained for any time at all under Bruce Lee is automaticaly given some sort of God like status.
This seems crazy as he surely had crap students too.
Just like all these guys that have trained with people like Dan Inasanto, just because they attended a few seminars it doesn't mean there invincible.
I have to admit though when I was looking for an instructor to teach me Xing Yi Quan, I specifically chose someone that had excellent credentials, I did this to ensure that I received the correct training.

CT.............

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 09:53 PM
When I first started looking for MA training, I looked at everything in my area. I think some people run into problems when they try to find a specific style. My sifu was just the best MA practitioner and teacher in my area. If a shotokan instructor that was better than him was in my area right now I would be ShotokanDynasty :D What I am trying to say is that what the "original founder" of the style intended doesn't really matter, what matters is what is happening today. I only see in black and white, is good or bad martial arts. I don't care how legit somthing is if it sucks :D


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Kung Lek
11-25-2001, 10:04 PM
not sure about mike tysons lineage but I'm pretty certain he can kick butt on 99% of every single ma student of any style there is.

same for Lewis, Rahman, Holyfield.

Do these guys have "lineages"? Not really.
do they know how to fight? you bet.

could they duke it up on the street? it is highly likely that their body guards would take care of their small change for em.

anyway. lineage these days really doesn't mean much when you look at the greater scheme of things, all it gives you is assurance that you are learning a style that has been handed down traditionally over time.

It has minimal importance. I mean, even Kyu Yu Cheong modified what he learned and by many his is considered a starting point of the Bak Sil Lum lineage even though his pedigree was different. And he taught thousands of folks shaolin martial arts. so, did it all begin in the late 20's with KYC? No it didn't.

Lineage for the most part only has meaning for the one that bears the responsibility of being the sifu of it. For the rest, they are just students and 99% of them will not be the holder of the style in the end. But if they become great fighters they will be saught after to teach and will become the sijo of a new lineage, just like bruce was the founder of Jun Fan and the JKD concepts.

What matters is does the art deliver what it claims to deliver. Is it effective and does it contribute to your overall martial skill. The pedigree is the smallest detail of any martial art, smaller than the style itself.

peace

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 10:07 PM
You explained that better than I could.


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

shaolinboxer
11-25-2001, 10:18 PM
Actually boxers do have lineage, through their trainers and the gyms they workout at. Just a thought.

Budokan
11-25-2001, 10:28 PM
1. Lineage in karate doesn't have the importance in KF.

2. Pretty much.

3. Stances depend on the style.

4. "One punch, one kill" methodology.

K. Mark Hoover

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 10:33 PM
Boxers do but not in the same way as martial artists. If martial artists thought of lineage like boxers then nobody would be a fraud(not a bad idea actually). In boxing you never here "I was trained by Tyson so I can fight even though I never got into the ring to fight or spar" Boxing is proved by fighting. MA should be still like that, I haven't competed but I have been in alot of fights so I know what I do works and if sombody wants to test me then they can try and fight me. Think if one of Wing Lams students(strong lineage) fought a Shaolin do student (questionable lineage), say the WL student looses, most of us would still say Shaolin Do sucks cause they have no lineage. Even if the Shaolin Do guys consistantly won CMA people would still say they suck cause of the lineage issues, what sense does that make?

I think alot of Kungfu guys get to caught up in holding on to things like history and treating their practice like a preservation act. If you are practiceing to preserve a tradition then I feel you are wasting your time because nothing lasts forever anyway. Also if you stick to that rigid way than the art will never serve you the way it should.


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Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 10:39 PM
The one punch thing always interested me. I have seen some hard hitting Karate guys but how do you feel the average practitioner can benifit from that practice or can they?

I like the fact that it can be mixed between the different styles. That really helps to keep practitioners open minded. I wish Kungfu was more like Karate in alot of ways.


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Budokan
11-25-2001, 10:43 PM
The average practitioner cannot benefit from it, IMO. It takes years of makiwara practice to even approach that idealized goal. I've done shotokan and makiwara for 3 years; I'm not there yet.

K. Mark Hoover

Merryprankster
11-25-2001, 10:44 PM
Shaolindynasty,

I'm not sure people would say "shaolin-do sucks," but they probably would say "shaolin do isn't REAL kung fu," and then the real kung-fu practicioner who received their ass-stomping would lick their wounds and retreat to their kwoon, and practice...secure in the knowledge that they practice REAL kung-fu, rather than learning about HOW they got their ass handed to them so they don't have it happen again.

The above is a fictitious generalization not meant to characterize any style or person. Happens in ALL of them.

I don't know why that is... just because people made up a "birth legend," (Wing Chun anyone? No way to verify the veracity of THAT particular story...) about their style doesn't make its martial value less, if it truly has that value. How many wierd ass legends about style origins are out there anyway, and what difference does it make now?

It happens all over though. A national Judo once stepped off the mat, fresh off a finals victory won by ippon, only to hear somebody say "he has no judo."

Huh?

Colin
11-25-2001, 10:48 PM
I basically agree with most of what you've said except this:
ShaolinDynasty: "What I am trying to say is that what the "original founder" of the style intended doesn't really matter, what matters is what is happening today."

This is so wrong! You could not possibly be more wrong in this statement!

To say that what the founder of the style intended doesn't matter, is to completely destroy the basic concept of what the style represents.
Funakoshi formulated okinawan karate to be more than just self defence. To make it an art, a way of life. Just the same as so many of the Chinese Master spent their lives developing their systems. If you now say that what they intended does not matter, then surely you will be taken the very essence of the style away, and leaving nothing but a husk. Pretty much like how Okinawan karate was taken to America, turned into American karate, then watered down to become no more than kickboxing.
Now kickboxing is good but it ain't karate or kung fu.

CT..........

Merryprankster
11-25-2001, 10:51 PM
At the same time Crawling Tiger, you can't expect western persons to whole-heartedly adopt asian concepts and customs. Kickboxing is far more reflective of the west than Funakoshi's karate was. It's a completely different mindset, and cultures leave their mark on the art, just as the art leaves its mark on the person.

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 10:52 PM
"I'm not sure people would say "shaolin-do sucks," but they probably would say "shaolin do isn't REAL kung fu," and then the real kung-fu practicioner who received their ass-stomping would lick their wounds and retreat to their kwoon, and practice...secure in the knowledge that they practice REAL kung-fu, rather than learning about HOW they got their ass handed to them so they don't have it happen again."

That would be a HUGE mistake, I wouldn't like to believe that CMA would do this but they would.
:( :(

"It happens all over though. A national Judo once stepped off the mat, fresh off a finals victory won by ippon, only to hear somebody say "he has no judo.""

Stuff like this bothers me, comments like these are usually made by insecure people though. Why does the martial arts have so many haters?


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Radhnoti
11-25-2001, 10:53 PM
1. I studied a type of shorin ryu karate for a year +, and our sensei (shihan actually) always stressed the importance of our lineage. This will be the only answer I make that doesn't correspond with Budokan's.
2. Pretty much from what I've seen. Minor modifications and you'll fit in fine.
3. Our stances were high, except for a conditioning kata.
4. My instructor emphasized "pressure point" type fighting, HEAVY conditioning and lots of heavy sparring.

Shaolindynasty
11-25-2001, 10:57 PM
What I meant with that comment was alot of people try to do some kind of reverse evolution. When styles are passed from generation to generation they are supposed to become more refined. By back tracking and trying to guess what the style was originally you could be regressing instead of progressing. I also mean people should be in the present instead of trying to relive the past.


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Merryprankster
11-25-2001, 11:01 PM
Ap Oweyn sent me an e-mail, and I think he's right on this:

It happens because people have invested a lot of time and money and a lot of themselves into the MA they've chosen... especially if they've studied it for awhile... I don't care if you have a black belt from the worst McDojo in the world, you took some time to do it.

It's a defensive response... nobody wants to believe that what they spent all that time practicing might not have the answers... ESPECIALLY when they've been told it HAS all the answers. So they fall back on "well, that's not REAL kung-fu."

I personally believe this is an advantage of the western way of thinking. There is a greater tendency for a western mind to question tradition than that of a far eastern mind. This is neither good nor bad, it's just the way it is. Confucian philosophy was more rigid than the dialectic adopted in the west and that changes the outlook on EVERYTHING. And while vietnamese culture is different than chinese, is different than Korean, Confucian thought had an influence on them all due to trade and cultural exchange.

Take note... what offended the CMA community about Bruce Lee's "classical mess," concept was not just the idea that CMA might not have as much martial value as suggested. A great deal of that offense was from the fact that he bucked tradition. He questioned the way it had always been done.

Traditional doesn't mean better, but many people treat it as if it does. It doesn't mean "worse," either, it just means "traditional."

Kung Lek
11-25-2001, 11:11 PM
The other thing is "forms collectors", these types are the same as "lineage groupies".

To have a lineage is quite honourable and stems from the cultural modality of filial piety which predominates in the asian cultures but not here in the west.

Most of us could not trace our family trees past our great grandparents whereas in asian cultures you find that quite routinely the whole family is acutely aware of who the first member of their family is and where whos great great great granfather's sister married whom and so on.

This flows over into the lineage questions concerning Martial arts which is also a cultural ingrainment in asian cultures but not in the west.

when we adopt these practices in the west, we take them in their entirety into our hearts but for us as westerners we have a tendency to be lacking in the areas of filial piety because it is quite alien to our culture and has been so outside the nobility for all time in the western cultures.

This does not mean in any way shape or form that a westerner cannot bear a style from an asian lineage, nor does it mean that westerners cannot use the arts as they were intended.

In fact, many of the asian martial arts have survived and maintained and gained huge popularity because of their practice in the west and the interest that westerners have had for them.

As a culture, the westerners absorb and accept much more from outside than almost any other culture on the planet. This is quite apparent. I mean, how many of you guys on this forum are of strictly chinese heritage? I am guessing it is the smaller percentage of the whole.

Most of the guys I learned martial arts with from Korean to Japanese to Chinese were westerners with only a sprinkling of asian people in the classes.

I think that many of the masters who opened their schools with the right mindfulness and goal to teach from their hearts knew that if not for the further dissemination of the arts into the outside cultures these arts simply would have difficulty surviving.

so, again I reiterate, Lineage does have importance in context to the methods of training supplied, but have little to do with each individuals gained results in the arts. I've seen plenty of non-asians performing Kung Fu both in fights and in forms and outstripping their asian counterparts in both cases.

That's the reality of the martial arts belonging to the world and to those who would diligently practice them.

Keep the arts away from people who are not of the same family or culture and your art will die.

True masters do not look at your name or your skin colour to decide whether you get to learn or not, they decide upon your character and eagerness and willingness to put in the hard training to do it.

peace

Kung Lek

Martial Arts Links (http://members.home.net/kunglek)

Merryprankster
11-25-2001, 11:15 PM
Ah yes... the forms collectors.

I punch the wind and kick the air! FEAR ME!


Kung Lek... we've spent a great deal of time agreeing on this thread... did somebody put something in our drinks? :)

Water Dragon
11-25-2001, 11:35 PM
Well I blow wind and defile the air, FEAR MY GUARD

joedoe
11-26-2001, 12:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> At the same time Crawling Tiger, you can't expect western persons to whole-heartedly adopt asian concepts and customs. Kickboxing is far more reflective of the west than Funakoshi's karate was. It's a completely different mindset, and cultures leave their mark on the art, just as the art leaves its mark on the person. [/quote]

If you want to learn a traditional Asian art though, then by definition you can be expected to adopt Asian concepts and customs.

While I agree that your lineage does not automatically mean that you are a superior fighter, the lineage is important in recognizing the foundations of the art. In doing so, it helps to understand the art itself.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
You're fu(king up my chi

Wongsifu
11-26-2001, 12:18 AM
1. In CMA people tend to think that lineage is the most important thing and that if your lineage is good than your individual practice will be better than that of someone with a not so clear line. Do Karate practitioners think like this to?
-----------------------------------
ive noticed generally karate practitioners dont think like this but the difference in lineage in karate is far greater than difference in lineage of kung fu.
reason being modern karate was generally ""founded"" by funakoshi you could say about 100 odd years ago (this is a wrong explanation but it will suffice for my example)

If you take wado ryu style the head head was hironori otsuka
if you take kyokushinkai it was mas oyama
if you take goju ryu i believe it was higaonna (i could be wrong here again) or gogen yamauchi.

these people generally died only 30 or 40 years ago so the roots of these martial arts are 1 generation away. So tracing a kosher lineage can be done if you are dedicated, I could go and learn from one of their top students nowadays. however look at kung fu , there are 4000000,0000000 practitioners who all claim their grandfather is the sole carrier of the style , and the roots are 5-10 generations away , not 1 generation so the deeper back the martial art is traced to the more is lost.
I have heard so many things about who is the most kosher tai ji player nowadays im sick of all of this cr@p and the truth is just when i tohught someone like chen xiaowang was the guy to look up to , i learn from somenone that there are chen players in mongolia which are better than in actual chenjiagou village. And that there is a lost chen style chin na that is actually unknown from chenjiagou but it exists in mongolia.


2. Is most Karate interchangable? Can a practitioner of Shotokan switch to another style with no problems as far as principles?

yes and no think of it as switching between types of tai ji , sun style to wu style large frame to small frame etc etc . same style different principles but at the same time same principle different style.

some karate is very soft whereas others is very hard.


3. Is there any emphasis on leaning low stances like in some kungfu or are the stances higher?

generally a good practitioner of traditional not sport karate will have the same main stances as gong fu, horse stance cat stance bow and arrow stance , some do it high some do it low.


4. What is the most important aspect of Karate fighting?

depends on stlye , but as budokan said , one punch should have the power to kill a block should have the power to break bones. however this is as shallow as likening tai ji to a martial art that is for health.

they have all the same principles as we have in kung fu only suited to them in different ways.

in essence the only difference between kf and karate is that karate has less variety , i usually liken it to the body mechanics of hung gar with the internal of hsing yi

This is because THC is not an alkaloid. It does not contain a nitrogen atom, therefore it is a terpenophenolic compound

dubj
11-26-2001, 12:20 AM
The only reason I care about lineage is the fact that it was tradition in most high level styles to only pass the full knowledge to select disciples or family members. By tracing the lineage you can see who learned what, and that gives you an idea of how much you can learn. If you want to learn an entire system you would be better off finding someone who is a lineage holder rather than someone who learned some public forms. The person who teaches the public forms can most likely teach you how to fight, but your skills will be limited. Although if you train with a lineage holder you won't automatically be a high level practitioner but the potential is usually greater there

Dark Knight
11-26-2001, 12:56 AM
I work with a couple national organizations, the biggest reason I would worry about lineage is just if the guy who is teaching me created the style in 30 days with his buddies.

I have met a couple of these, they go from 2nd to 10th overnight. They take part of one form and combine it with another, no real reason just to say they made a new style.

Then to help there are all kinds of people running around who will sell you a certificate that says you are a "Soke" for a fee.

So when someone tells you they are a young "master" or created their own style, "Buyer Beware".

SevenStar
11-26-2001, 01:40 AM
"Then to help there are all kinds of people running around who will sell you a certificate that says you are a "Soke" for a fee."

I'm not naming styles or practitioners to avoid flames and trouble, but I've heard stories about well known CMA masters doing the same thing, not using "soke" of course though.

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

rogue
11-26-2001, 02:05 AM
"One punch one kill" comes from the Japanese phrase, "One encounter, one chance" which is probably a more encompassing philosophy for a martial artists.

I agree with the other karateka except on number 4, which I believe changes with ryu and level.

Signed,
Rogue, Soke and Senior Grandmaster of Southeast American Brazillian Bagua Combat Chi jitsu Kempo Karate Do and Choral Society.

The only tactical principle which is not subject to change; it is, “To use the means at hand to inflict the maximum amount of wounds, death, and destruction on the enemy in the minimum amount of time."

curtis
11-26-2001, 02:07 AM
We've come long way.
I think it's more maturity thing, years ago if you were not Oriental you cannot learn and Oriental art.
My lineage is who I am. thats what makes me different?

My father can beat up your father.

Comeon!

If people feel that insecure about what they can do. Then it's not worth it. In my opinion.
Just because I have a black belt means so very little, if I have to live up to this immature world we live in.
If I know I am good. Isn't that be enough? If I work hard enough and strive to achieve my goals. Why do I need to impress others?
After all isn't that, self-discipline.

C.A.G.

SevenStar
11-26-2001, 02:27 AM
ichi-go; ichi-e...

"Just because I joke around sometimes doesn't mean I'm serious about kung-fu.
" - nightair

apoweyn
11-26-2001, 04:07 PM
i don't think there's anything wrong with an interest in the lineage of your style. it may yield insights into the application of the style itself (e.g., coming to grips with the history and philosophy of taiji may aid someone in learning how the physical relaxation necessary to that style might be achieved).

and from an intellectual standpoint, i certainly can't find fault with wanting to know your history. we teach history in school, where we could very easily simply say, "what does it matter? what matters is what's happening now."

the problem occurs when we use lineage as a substitute for firsthand knowledge. if we allow ourselves to rest on our laurels, two questions come to my mind: 1) what guarantee do we have that past practitioners didn't do likewise? (in which case, we have fewer guarantees that our practice is combat ready) and 2) when we become a part of our style's lineage, what guarantee will those who come after us have that the style is still relevant?

the first question can be answered relatively easily, i suppose. we have stories of the exploits of those who preceded us. but that's secondhand knowledge.

the second question, though... if lineage is this important to you, then it'll be this important to those who follow you. and now you are that lineage. personally, that's what compels me to find out whether what i'm doing makes sense. part of it, anyway.


stuart b.

Ironpig
11-26-2001, 06:49 PM
For your first question: All of the Japanese arts practitioners I have had the oportunity to work with all were concerned with Lineage. All knew who they had learned from and whom their teacher had learned from.

For your second question, there is as much variation in technique and requirement in Japanese arts as in Chinese arts. I have seen Shotokan people work Sanchin Kata and a Kyokushinkai person work Sanchin, both were impressive. There were some minor points of difference in emphasis, and the Kyokushinkai practitioner was in obviously better condition.

Third question, depends on the school, when I worked Japanese styles, I worked low stances, and high stances, in fact, each form had five ways of being performed for emphasis on different applications.

The most important factor of Karate, or any Japanese art, should be "Kokoro", or heart. (though that term is larger than simply heart)

Much of the strengths I bring to my Kuoshu practice I picked up learning various styles before I walked in the door. Not the kicking and punching, but the heart of it. The real intent.

That I am able to practice martial arts without becoming some goon, but rather a more whole human being.

I am sure that my Shifu would agree, that I have only grown as a person by practicing any number of arts, and have become a more rounded individual for it.

So in general, I would say that "heart" is the most important martial principle that I have learned from Japanese arts, and that I continue to learn in Chinese arts.

just a few pennies from a pig.....
-"bigger is BIGGER"

IronPig

Kevin73
11-26-2001, 07:01 PM
Japanese Karate started with Funakoshi when he took what he learned and then simplified it and changed it to make it simpler and safer to be taught to school children and more aesethetic for the japanese nobility (I know alot will disagree with this but he even says he did this in his autobiography).
Okinawan Karate is harder to trace because it is older and many of the masters also studied in China. So many of the "ryu" styles will have alot of similarities (physical movements that you will recognize from style x).
From what I have seen (go over to e-budo.com and look at their bad budo section sometime) lineage is VERY important to alot of karate people as well. I was criticized because the style I study was founded by someone who thinks that it should stand on it's own merits and not by who he knew and who gave him a piece of paper. He studied with many people both formally and informally, and when he opened up a dojo to teach one of those styles he was challenged many times by "dojo stormers" back in the 70's and found out what would or wouldn't work in a real fight. Then he took all of the knowledge and systemized it into his own approach based on what he had learned through studying and fighting, and when he declared his style he took on all people who challenged him to prove that his style was legitamite (old fashioned matches where they would meet out in a field with no one else not some tournament or sparring match). I work in corrections and have used what I've learned many times and it works great but this didn't matter to this person because he could trace HIS lineage to some dead okinawan master. Another example I've seen is people saying Isshin-Ryu isn't a real style or good because it's part Shorin-Ryu and part Goju-Ryu even though the early students were beating all of those people in matches. Sounds alot like some of the kung fu examples given.
Not all styles of karate are one punch one kill, there are some that are very fluid and quick not just lock out punches based on how good it looks.
The old masters of any style could fight otherwise the style wouldn't still be around, the question is can your instructor impart that skill so you can learn it also using your style as a vehicle to do so.

"God gave you a brain, and it annoys Him greatly when you choose not to use it."

Shaolindynasty
11-26-2001, 11:46 PM
Loved that post san*****a


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omegapoint
11-27-2001, 12:52 AM
First off, great post and replies. This question's validity is based on "ryu" and "ryuha", or systems and subsystems. Most Japanese Karate- Kyokushin, Japanese Goju, Shotokan, Wado Ryu, etc. respect those who came before them. I don't know exactly how far they can trace their lineage back though, as many ideas from Okinawa and China were dropped or altered over the years in order to structure Karate as a whole.

In the Okinawan or original forms of Karate, lineage is very, very important. Saying you studied under Shimabuku, Kyan, Soken, Chibana, Y. Higa, Nakazato, Kise or one of the few other "koryu" or classical sensei is understood to mean you may know original karate better than, say, someone who studied Shotokan, or as the Okinawan's call it "school-boy karate".

When Funakoshi began to standardize (not formulate, BIG difference) the karate he learned on the Ryukyus he understood that many of the techs taught to him for life-or-death situations were not applicable to teaching the Japanese people. The fact that many Okinawans looked down on him for attempting to teach their oppressors techniques reserved for Okinawan Samurai (Bushi)was just one reason to restructure training to better fit school boys and the secondary school curriculum.

Itosu did a similar thing, not only to popularize the art for the masses, but to make it safe for teaching in schools. As great as Itosu was, many Orthodox practitioners of Okinawa Karate refer to his systems as "school-boy karate". Don't get me wrong. They understood and understand that this brand of Okinawan Karate, especially Kobayashi Shorin Ryu, is much more "real" than any Japanese brand, but many of the subtle, effective techs of "ti" have been excluded or replaced with those that emphasize athleticism and power which are more conducive with sport competition.

As for "one punch, one kill", this means that your first blow should be the decisive blow. The blow which causes his nose to explode and allow you to finish him of while he is "distracted". It also refers to proper placement of a tech in a real situation so that you incapacitate or control the situation quickly and efficiently. It doesn't necessarily mean that you are actually gonna kill him with every well-placed strike!

So, trust me lineage almost always makes a difference. To say I study BJJ under Carlos Elias, one of Rickson Gracie's top black belts, validates what I learned more than saying I learned from Joe-Schmoe 2-stripe blue belt from Pedro Cornholio's (or whoever's) system. Of course that doesn't automatically confer otherworldly ground skills on the practitioner, that part is dependent on me, but it does tell the knowing that I studied under a 5th Dan who is highly regarded amongst his peers and students. Therefore, you can rest more soundly knowing he's teaching you as he was taught by Rickson, and Rickson by Helio, the Grandmaster.

The same is true for Karate. To say you studied under a sensei who is only 2-3 teachers/generations removed from the Okinawan source is better than saying you studied under Sensei Fred who learned from some guy stationed in Hawaii, who in turn learned from some old Asian fellow who was a 2nd dan under someone who was a 4th dan and studied with some guy who lived and trained Shotokan in Japan in the 60's, and peridodically learned from a guy who "picked-up" techs while researching the lost methods of Shotokan, on Okinawa (from an Isshin Ryu guy, hahahaha).

Lineage is very important to a practitioner of Koryu. It's a very good reference point to begin assessing a karatekas knowledge and skill. As for forms accumulation;If your system emphasizes 40-50 kata, then you can rest assured you're definitely being entangled in the "nonclassical mess". Many old school Masters practiced just one form for many years sometimes a decade, before they began perfecting another. The secrets are in the kata and bunkai. If you have Sequined-Sensei-Joe teaching the "Flight of 1000 Sparrows" kata he invented to win the "National Broadway and Show Tunes Vidal Sassoon Karate Championship" then you are not learning about fighting. After all true Karate is about fighting, period.

[This message was edited by omegapoint on 11-27-01 at 04:04 PM.]

myosimka
11-27-2001, 04:47 PM
Although in truth I will just sum up his and state that he proves, by example, that yeah we put up with the same lineage crap. Lots assume without seeing another style that they are superior as a result of lineage. and that their students learn real karate where others do not without really knowing how the other students train. It's everywhere. In fact, I've seen it less in the CMAs I know. (I think that's only because I have been doing JMAs 3x as long.) Check out e-budo sometime. You'll see the same sorts of heated discussions and rivalries played out there.

Merryprankster
11-27-2001, 07:13 PM
Hey, I'm the first to admit that lineage is important, but it's not the end all be all... that's what I was trying to get across in posts.

Of ALL the things you could be doing with your energy, the LEAST productive is to argue about "who has the REAL 'x'"

Is he a REAL tai ji master? Well it's not Tai ji because it doesn't look like what I learned. I've seen real tai ji and that isn't it. What he's doing looks good but it's not REAL taiji.

Ok, yeah... can the guy kick your ass with his tai ji? That's the real question.

shaolinboxer
11-27-2001, 07:27 PM
Omegapoint- I see your point, but I did not think any of the schools of karate were considered "koryu" (reference: koryu.com). Not that I am saying "you are wrong", but are there some references you could point me to for extended reading?

Merryp.: "Ok, yeah... can the guy kick your ass with his tai ji? That's the real question."

IMO, this is not the real question. Is tai ji not closer to budo than to bujutsu? It was my impression that tai ji is more than just a method of commiting assualt or dominating another person.

If this is true, how can a tai ji practitioner's technique be validated by the notion of ability to cause harm?

Or perhaps I am mistaken....

Merryprankster
11-27-2001, 07:29 PM
Substitute Judo for Tai ji, BJJ for Tai ji, Wing Chun for Tai ji, .

I'm not specifically discussing Tai Ji, I was just pointing out how silly it is to argue over who has the REAL 'x'.

Shaolindynasty
11-27-2001, 07:35 PM
I think the terms like I want to learn authentic this and that make no sense. I know I'll get my a$$ kicked for this but it would be easier just to call everything martial arts but that would be flawed to. To me lineage is like a family tree, if you come from a prince or a bum it doesn't matter much compared to what you are now, lineage should be researched out of personal interest and you should respect your anscetors. Interest and respect should be the motivation not ego, if someone argues with you don't mouthbox you box for real or not at all.


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Royal Dragon
11-27-2001, 11:21 PM
We can't have THAT!! Can we? Where would we be without Mouth Boxing? I say LOST....LOST I Tell Ya....LOST!!!!!


RD

Those that are sucessful are also the biggest failures. the difference between them and the rest of the failures is this, they keep getting up over and over again, until they succeed. "The more they try, the more they fail, BUT, the more they try & fail, the more opertunity they have to succeed, and succeed they do!!"



Check out the Royal Dragon Web site & Message Board.

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com or http://www.dreamwater.net/biz/royaldragon/

omegapoint
11-28-2001, 02:27 AM
Koryu can be translated into modern ebonics to mean "old school". You are right about the traditional Japanese term koryu, which I'm sure the Japanese call their arts and not the Okinawan styles. Trust me brother, a lot of Okinawan Karate is koryu, regardless of how you look at it.

Some books I enjoyed reading and learning from:
"Martial Musings" by Robert Smith (Outstanding! This guy has trained in everything from Kodokan Judo to Tai Chi); definitely a must read!)

"Okinawan Karate" by Mark Bishop (Mr. Bishop lived and trained on Okinawa. His book has some discrepancies and he is often opinionated, but there is no other source detailing the progenitor Karate styles.)

"The Bubishi" by Patrick McCarthy (Although Mr. McCarthy is a controversial character, you can't deny his passion and knowledge concerning Asian martial science and history.)

So Shaolindynasty, hope this stuff helps and answers some questions. Merryprankster, you're a hardcore badasss, keep it up. The rest of ya'----Good lookin' out!!!

Shaolindynasty
11-28-2001, 04:26 PM
Hey I'm a hardcore badass to :confused:


www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

Shaolindynasty
02-21-2002, 08:35 PM
I think Katare is an underrated art. I like it. I think that if sombody was trained hard in Karate they would be just as capibale of fighting as any style of martial arts. Allot of kungfu guys seem to think they are superior to karate I wonder why?

This thread is not really anything I was just thinking about the bum rap Karate gets.

respectmankind
02-21-2002, 08:40 PM
I think it is under rated, mostly because it is the art in America that has been modified for kids. In its true form Karate is neatO!

Merryprankster
02-21-2002, 08:40 PM
Hey wow! You mean hard work is the key, more than the style? Who'd a thunk it.

Not making fun of you Shaolin--I think you've hit on a point more people need to pay attention to.

Shaolindynasty
02-21-2002, 08:46 PM
Merryprankster- I read you. Most people think they should be able to defend themselves in "3 easy lessons". I guess what i meant to say is the reason why people see so much ineffective karate is because allot of people don't work as hard as they should, this is also true in Kungfu. Mcdojo is a dirty word to us but allot of karate schools in the USA don't know anything else. But the styles of karate are good.

rogue
02-21-2002, 08:51 PM
I like it. Karate always get's the bum rap about being to stiff and linear. While at a good school it may start out that way to get the basics down, it should start to flow at the mid-ranks.

Merryprankster
02-21-2002, 08:59 PM
Courtesy of Roy Harris on the BJJ forum from mixedmartialarts.com


Techniques are nothing more than "physical movements." For example, can you do the "Michael Jordan" slam dunking technique? Of course you can, almost everyone can! Though it may not look exactly like his signature dunk, it would be the MJ dunking technique!

Now, the real questions are, "Can you propel your body above the rim like Mr. Jordan can?" and, "Can you keep your body above the rim for as long as he can?"

The ability to propel your body above the rim requires a certain amount of athleticism (read "physical attributes"). If you do not have these physical attributes, does it even matter if you can do a technique like MJ?

For years, we've heard martial arts masters tell us, "It's all about technique!" And, we've bought and paid for it with our blood, sweat and bank accounts.

Most of us come to the conclusion (that technique alone will not get the job done) only after we've been training for "X" amount of years and then some athletic guy walks in off the street and gives us a good run for our money. Suddenly our technique world has been shattered. We think to ourselves, "I don't get it. I've been training for 3 years and this guy, who has no training, walks in off the street and hangs with me for five minutes. Something must be wrong!"

For those who don't know any better (or for those who refuse to let go of the myth), they will repeatedly ask question after quesion, "What technique do I do when the guy does this?" or " What technique do I do with the big strong guys?" What makes matter worse is the big guy keeps coming to group classes and then you find out that he is also taking private lessons.

I know all of this because I've been there before, and I have heard it amongst my students. Plus, I have guys who train with me from other schools who take private lessons JUST TO BEAT the big guys!

Mental knowledge of physical movements will never equal a skill. Only time, effort, patience, discipline and persistence will!!

Mister Hansome
02-21-2002, 09:03 PM
What kind of karate do you like? Or do you just like karate in general. My friend is going to BC for some Kykoshin tournament, so i had to wish him good luck.

Leonidas
02-21-2002, 09:52 PM
What style?

I've heard good things about Uechi and Motobu. Of course Shorin being one of the most popular is good too. I guess Shorin Ryu would be my favorite

Sow Choy
02-21-2002, 11:42 PM
I really enjoy reading books on traditional karate, well all arts in general. I really enjoyed a book by Mas Oyama called essential karate. It has many movements and techniques that most Kung Fu styles hae.

Anyone know which karate style he taught?

don bohrer
02-22-2002, 12:05 AM
Do any of you guys go to open tournaments? Here in El Paso I manage to enter a couple each year. Its a great way to get exposure to other arts. While some schools do not participate regularly I have seen a fair amount of karate and kung fu while attending.

Crimson Phoenix
02-22-2002, 01:15 AM
Woohhooo, this might start a controversy, but there it is...here's the citation first:
"if you pit a karateka against a gong fu exponent who both started studying at the same time, the first three years there is no way gong fu can deal with the sheer brute force of karate...but after ten years of practice, the unrefined sheer brute power of karate can do nothing against the flowing, intricate and subtle ways of gong fu".
And guess who it is coming from? A tenth dan karate practicionner!! :eek:

Merryprankster
02-22-2002, 01:32 AM
Appeal to authority.

Just because he's a tenth dan doesn't mean he's right :)

Kaitain(UK)
02-22-2002, 02:00 AM
I don't doubt that a lot of CMA styles are far more advanced than x-Ryu Karate - but you still have to work very hard to get to that potential - I would guess that the numbers that achieve this are a small percentage of the total that train.

A Karateka can punch and kick and stand-up grapple (in my school anyway) to a reasonable level after 6 months if they've trained properly - by 'reasonable level' I mean they can use it in non-cooperative situations, it wouldn't hold up against a seasoned street fighter. They work hard because everyone in the class works hard - I've been in Tai Chi classes where the majority of the class don't want to work, don't like doing QiGong, don't want to spend an hour refining a single posture. That environment can be very hard to train in as it is all off your own back - sometimes you need your peers to keep you going (when you're tired, when you're frustrated, when you've dipped). I assume this is beacuse TCC often attracts the sort of people that don't want to work - lazy people.

I like Karate, I study Wado Ryu as I like the agility and blending skills it develops - I also find that I can train with anyone in the Karate class and they'll have some intent. In Tai Chi I'm lucky to find one student in fifty that can actually give me something to work with - i.e. skill, power, intention or even just interest.

I dislike the notion that because a system is cleverer than another that it must be superior. Ten years of work on basic (as in punch, kick, throw) striking and grappling should not be underestimated on the basis that another system understands 'higher' concepts. They can still knock you on your arse if you screw up.

Yeah - I like Karate :)

Merryprankster
02-22-2002, 02:09 AM
'higher' concepts. I like that you put this in quotations because it's my firm belief that there is no such thing as a low-level technique/concepts; only low or high level application.

People who think that there are "higher" concepts than others when discussing MA are more or less fooling themselves.

Nichiren
02-22-2002, 02:09 AM
There are bad karate and good karate. Some karate styles have been competition infuenced and lost the essentials. With this I mean they practise only one technique kumite and almost no in-fighting.

If I would start with karate I would look for a school that hasn't lost its roots. The following are some of the styles I would choose between depending on the sensei:

Okinawa Goju Ryu (Founded on Nahate)
Nahate
Shorin Ryu
Isshin Ryu (combination of Goju- and Shorin Ryu)
Kyukushin ("New" style that has the right attitude)

Of course this is my opinion and different people have different needs.

I practised sh!to Ryu for a couple of years but I was almost kata:d to death. Hmm, the moderator didn't like that style at all.... :D

/Peace

Crimson Phoenix
02-22-2002, 02:33 AM
But still guys, when I heard this I went *shriek*!!
Can you believe it? It's not coming from someone who could be accused of being "pro-CMA"...the guy was 9th dan (he's actually been awarded the honorary tenth but he almost never speaks about it), he is 5th dan of Ju-Jutsu, 3rd of Aikido and 1st of Kendo...he has been devoting his entire life to japanese arts, he brought karate to Europe, obtained his 5th dan during a fight with Yoshinao Nanbu (who is far from being a nobody!), back in the days when dans were awarded with fights...and yet he says that in substance karate is good as start-up, but can do nothing against gong fu in the long run?? He even became so impressed with it that he sought a taiji teacher in China and went on meeting many gong fu masters like Chang Dsu Yao (and many others, but he wouldn't tell). Then he proceed to speak about these chinese masters who overlooked karate as "kiddy gong fu"...and he added with a smile "Growing old I came to realize that chinese were right on many points, and it seems that they might be quite right again on this one"
That was shocking to me...so much lucidity, such a concession from someone who know first hand about combat and japanese arts...he was right on serious,first I thought he was joking, but no...
That was just plain surrealistic for me...

Kaitain(UK)
02-22-2002, 03:05 AM
Merry - I actually do believe that there are higher concepts in some arts that others, I just don't necessarily see them as better.

e.g. in Taiji we train spiralling energy - it can make strikes extremely difficult to divert or block as they contain more than one direction of force(bit more to it thant that but I'm not too sure how to explain it) . It's a higher concept than just whacking someone as hard as you can - but there aren't many circumstances where the spiralling cleverness is necessary. I can't foresee a street situation where I'm expecting an opponent to stick to my attacks - consequently the bludgeoning and crude whack is just as effective. I always use spiralling because I've trained it in - but it makes no difference really given the circumstances it is ever going to be necessary to use it.

another example would be BJJ - there is an advanced understanding of grappling in that art, a huge variety of holds, escapes, counters, counters to counters etc etc - but in a real situation a rear naked will probably do it. All the other stuff is cleverness, but it isn't needed (most of the time).

or Escrima - years are spent refining stick and hand skills - but ultimately if you've got a stick in your hand you can just twat someone with it. The other stuff is kind of 'in emergency break glass and use me'.

Karate doesn't advance any fighting idea (kicking, punching, grappling, throwing, weapons) far and beyond any other art - but it makes it all work and it makes it all effective.

Maybe a 10th Dan Karateka wouldn't stand up to a top level Kung-Fu guy (note: i don't believe this to be true)- but does he need to? Is that the only reason to train?

Guess who's been brooding about things like 'why am I training?' recently...

EDIT: Having re-read Merry's post and mine I realise he said what I said in far less words :)

NafAnal
02-22-2002, 04:50 AM
Kanazawa of shotokan karate fame loves taiji. He said something along the lines of karate for the plebs and taiji for super human beings. He's known as one of the most skillful karateka of his time allegedly winning some tournament in his youth with a broken hand.

No karate i have seen teaches the principles of whole body power, alignment etc seen in the internal styles from day one. Most Karate i feel lacks ANY of the fine alignment and power generation seen in xingyi for example. They either just don't have the keys to the knowledge or they are VERY unwilling to teach it.

That doesn't mean the practitioners don't achieve high level power in their blows. They do, they are either just natural at it, had a good teacher who was willing to share the "secrets" of alignment and proper body mechanics, or they have broken the movement down, repeated and conditioned it so much that the blow achieves similar results to those seen in the internal.

I haven't seen a lot of short power in most karate, the practitioners prefferring to slug it out at long range with immaculately timed reverse punches. A lot of karate lacks any kind of short range grappling or locking system- my style especially. They think that a solid punch will do the trick (in most cases this is true but the tool must be developed) They don't have any kind of flow, their techniques being very choppy and linear, their attacks come in short, rhythmic volleys and to be honest- are crude and inefficent in most cases. I'd like to add that there are many exceptions. But many high level guys i have seen still look stiff, innefficient in comparision to other styles. They CAN fight however and because they have trained that one killer tool could stand against high level guys in other arts quite easily.

Shotokan karate doesn't emphasize enough relaxation, it's practitoners will tend to be overly tense, they will talk of it, but mny are unable to do it. (I might add that this is also very true for internal systems e.g. xingyi- many xingyi guys are very guilty of not being able to practice what they preach but for some unknown reason it has a better reputation that karate.)

It also places too much emphasis on the hip, neglecting the waist/gua as a whole. They have somehwere along the line lost the proper training for a good root, and are confused to its purpose. the pulse of motion up the body, that is emphaised in xingyi and is seen in any good striker (including boxers) isn't taught. the tendons, shoulders, scaplula aren't given any mention at low levels.

Karate has the motto "one punch certain death" but i find that most practitoners lack the tool development to carry out this maxim.

Of course these are gross generalisations. Many styles of karate to have softer elements in them as well as some form of breathing exercise and grappling elements. Kyokushin appears to have some breath control exercises. These generalisations were based on the style of shotokan i do, so go ahead and bite me head off. i don't care, this is just what i've experienced.

Karate has a wonderful saying though which says to me that there is good karate out there, and it once had some great fighters and thinkers who were on the same level as any of the great chinese masters of today and before.

"learn the rules, master the rules, dissolve the rules...."

S.Teebas
02-22-2002, 06:01 AM
My first MA was karate, and i must say for me it was an EXCELLENT base. I trained at a kyokoshinkai school, the teacher was a national chapion at one stage and his mentality towards training '**** hard!" and has stayed with me till this day.
Every punch, every kick needs to be 100% every time, by the end of class you just collapse from the intense workout.

This is somthing i kind of missed when i traveled over to kung fu. As in, most people took it really easy. I eventually realised that kung fu is very much a mental work out (well the style i do is internal)... and now when i leave class i feel strength in my mind is building.

Theres is heaps in karate that is valuable. I have no idea about a high level karate guy against a high level kung fu man.... because i couldn't see how high kung fu could be when i first started, so unless the level is reached then i can not know how high, or technical karate goes.

Someone mentioned earlier that kyokashinkai has breath control, i can verify this. They do concentrate on breathing, but i dont know to what degreee this is developed (ie is it comparable ot qi-gung??) I recall the advanced students breathing extrememly deeply during katas. (katas?...i assume it was a kata, could be somthing else?...i dunno)

Karate kicks ass!

shaolinboxer
02-22-2002, 06:04 AM
"Karate has the motto "one punch certain death" but i find that most practitoners lack the tool development to carry out this maxim. "

A better explaination (IMO) of this maxim is "resolution through single action".

This guy's karate is wicked:

http://www.aikidojournal.com/articles/ajArticles/_KenjiUshiro.asp

Budokan
02-22-2002, 06:14 AM
I train in shotokan karate exclusively now and have been for several years. Many years ago I did isshin-ryu but had to move so I quit the style. I don't think karate gets a bum rap, other than from idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Pretty much like KF gets a bum rap--again from idiots who don't know what they're talking about. Leave 'em to heaven, we're doing fine.

However, to be fair if I couldn't take karate I'd still take some sort of MA because it's become too important to my life to totally quit now. I like the workouts and the health aspects to give up MA completely. So, while I absolutely love karate, if I couldn't take it I'd just go on to something else. I mean, it's not the end all and be all of human existence. There are other things in life, like my children and my wife, that come first with me.

I agree that the traditonal books about karate like Mas Oyama's work and Nakayama's "Dynamic Karate" are some of the best out there on the subject. Nakayama's "Best Karate" series is also tops, IMO.

Yung Apprentice
02-22-2002, 06:41 AM
One should always have respect for any legitamite MA. Karate, Kung Fu etc. They all have their strengths and weaknesses.

JasBourne
02-22-2002, 07:04 AM
Hah, Budokan, I was going to mention Shotokan but you beat me to it. This is my favorite shoto website:

24 Fighting Chickens (http://www.24fightingchickens.com/)

I would love to cross hands with this fella someday (not now, he'd pound me without breaking a sweat) :)

Shaolindynasty
02-22-2002, 07:28 AM
My sifu used to take shotokan before he started kungfu. His sensei was some retired army guy from japan. He always told me stories of really brutal sparring that his sensei had him go through. In one instance he was matched against some guy he really didn't like and they ended in some postion where my sifu had him by the neck and the other guy kept hitting him in the kidney. In the end my sifu broke a blood vessel in his kidney and the other guy developed some kind of speach inpediment. That's crazy sparring!:eek:

I saw a special on discovery about JMA and I liked the guys from okinawa, I think the style was Isshin Ryu. The sensei there was very strong he broke several boards with his toe, crane beak, and some postion that was supposed to imitate a dragon he used his thumb to break.

I think karate isn't as "soft" as kungfu but they train very hard in the iron body aspect. Somebody already mentioned that in Karate class most people have more intent than in kungfu classes, I think it's true for the most part.

I also don't beleive in "advanced" or "Higher" level technique. I heard Jhoon Rhee say something that sums up my thoughts on this. "Basic technique done thousands of times till it's polished, that's avanced technique".

Sow Choy
02-22-2002, 12:59 PM
I agree with Shaolin Dynasty, what's basic usually works best. But I find the more a teacher or style breaks things down, more people think it is advanced. It might help people understand better to know about certain lines and power generation, but breaking it down too much can take away from naturalness of the art.

One thing I have learned is never talk about what an art has or doesn't have, even if you study it. A different branch, style or teacher may prove you wrong. Better to be open minded and always learning then teach. I only speak on behalf of my personal training. There are some very intelligent people on this board.

Who would win a fight between a karateka or kung fu stylist? Why not ask who would win, batman or superman? Silly question right? Martial Art is a tool, nothing more nothing less. The mind is much more advanced, didn't humans create martial art in the 1st place?

Judge the artist if you must, not the art.

Take care all!

CD Lee
02-22-2002, 01:01 PM
I watched recently a video on executive self defence by a Karate guy. The Karate guys was incredibly fast, and he showed all the moves to get out of certain situations. These were all Karate style applications.

The main problem I had with this was that the moves were all very inherently violent. Some of the moves were ridiculous for self defence. One had a co-worker placing an arm on someones shoulder complaining. Suddenly the move is to strike to the throat, kick to the groin. This is just not acceptable in the real world in most cases.

What I am saying is you have to be able to have applications that allow you to not put someone in the hospital. A grab to the lapel or shoulders. Well any sap can suddenly throw a kick to the groin, or stike the face with your palm. But now it is a fight, so get ready to fight some more. you should have an application that allows you to release the hold or grab, by taking the opponent off balance, ending the grab, and evading away from the situation.

I have to admit, the Karate looked awesome really. But as I watche the film, nobody could do what the Karate guy was showing as effectively. And the moves could not be done in sequence if the strikes and kicks were followed through. In other words, they were pulling punches, and putting together combinations that could not work if you struck the person full force. For instance, a kick to the groin, strike to the throat does not work, because the groin kick bends the person over, throat is now covered.

Tinman
02-22-2002, 01:52 PM
I never took any martial art other than goju ryu Karate.But what I see and hear it seems to me that karate sort of Rules.

Mister Hansome
02-22-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by S.Teebas


Someone mentioned earlier that kyokashinkai has breath control, i can verify this. They do concentrate on breathing, but i dont know to what degreee this is developed (ie is it comparable ot qi-gung??) I recall the advanced students breathing extrememly deeply during katas. (katas?...i assume it was a kata, could be somthing else?...i dunno)

Karate kicks ass!

Well i think that qi gong has more then just breathing exercises. Don't most arts have breathing excercises any ways? From what i know qi gong is a bit more, like focusing on areas and cleansing the body and a whole bunch of different stuff. It's learning how to control your chi, and to move it around your body with your mind also. (Well, i don't know much about qi and anyone can probably fix up my points on qi, especially a professional)

(If i am TOTALLY off, don't call me an idi*t please just inform me on my mistakes so i can fix it up in the future. I am still on the process of reading Jwing Ming Yang's books, which are really long, i only read the first page and the stuff above is what i can assume what qi gong consists of in a brief discription)

Asia
02-23-2002, 12:27 AM
I really enjoy reading books on traditional karate, well all arts in general. I really enjoyed a book by Mas Oyama called essential karate. It has many movements and techniques that most Kung Fu styles hae.


You don't know what style OYAMA taught!!!!!????!?!?!!?!?!


KARATE SUCKS!!!! KARATEKA SUCK!!!! EVERYONE SUCKS!!!!

:D

Had to add a spark to the thread!!!


:D :D :D

anton
02-23-2002, 01:37 AM
I think Mas Oyama founded Kyokushin. He was a tough cookie - my year 10 Japanese teacher said he saw a tape of Oyama taking on a charging bull, apparently he broke off its horns with his forearms and finnished it off with a punch to the head. :eek:

Yung Apprentice
02-23-2002, 05:37 AM
Tinman- That is why you ARE the tinman. And not anything cool, like Ironman!

Asia- Good work!

Mister Hansome- When I used to take TKD, it also had breath work, but I definately wouldn't call it gi gong

Anton- I sincerely doubt it.


I respect Karate. But many of the points given are pros, what about the cons of Karate? How come many of you are no longer taking Karate? It kinda sounds like many ppl on hear are saying that Karate is a lot stronger than kung fu. Or tougher, more efficient, or in some cases better.

Merryprankster
02-23-2002, 05:44 AM
Anton--it's fairly widely known that the "bulls," were well past their prime, had been somewhat drugged up in a few cases, and the horns had been partially (MOSTLY) sawed through. I wish I could find the specific pages, but none of the original guys who trained with Oyama even argue about them being faked.

kungfu cowboy
02-23-2002, 08:26 AM
Aww, a sweet martial childhood myth shattered....ah, the humanity.:(

Asia
02-23-2002, 01:07 PM
Merryprankster,

I am a long time Kyokushin practioner. I have met and trained with Oyama and with many of the "old school" pple. It was a well known that many of the bulls Oyama fought where not the strapping ones seen in a Bullfighting ring, the time he did take one he ended up gored and almosted died. But where did you get the "DRUGGED" and "SAWED" thing from?:confused: I have NEVER heard this from the kyokushinkai the only ones that spoke negative of this were Oyama's ill admirors.


FYI Bullfighting by Karateka and Kung Fu players was actually common. What Oyama did was not new he capitalized the most of his because he made a show of it.

Merryprankster
02-23-2002, 07:17 PM
Well Asia, in that case, you know more than I do by first hand experience. It doesn't interest me enough to research it, so I'll take your word for it.

And I don't mean to knock Kyokushinkai...Or Oyama for that matter. Tough folks.

Ryu
02-23-2002, 07:29 PM
Childhood myth reborn! Yay! :D

Ryu

SevenStar
02-23-2002, 08:45 PM
When properly trained, karate is excellent, as with any other style. I have a japanese friend whose faster than anyone I've ever seen. there's no name to his style, he only calls it "traditional japanese karate" he knows all of the shotokan forms, and forms from other styles. His throws are awesome as are his kicks. at only 155 lbs, he hits hader than MA I know that outweigh him by 50 lbs.

Ryu
02-23-2002, 09:55 PM
Dammn... the "real" Ryu? :confused:

NafAnal
02-24-2002, 05:55 AM
Bluming talks about bulls

http://www.musashi.nl/RealTruthframe.htm

Merryprankster
02-24-2002, 06:19 AM
Hmmm Naf, interesting.

But it's here :)

http://www.musashi.nl/Bluming/3.gif


Put your pointer in the lower right hand corner of the picture and you'll get a button that enlarges it so you can read the darn thing.

Archangel
02-24-2002, 07:04 AM
Do you know anything about Seido kai, it's the art that the late Andy Hug of K1 studied; It looks very similar to Kyokoshin.

Asia
02-24-2002, 07:53 AM
Archangel,

I know of the Seidokaikian (kyokushin offshot) founded by Kazuyoshi Ishii (aka Mr. K1 himself) but I don't know Andy Hug. I do highly recommend Ishii's book "Katsu Tame no Karate" (Winning Karate) it is a good book on kumite.


Naf and others,


Blumming is well know as a good man in Kyokushin circles. However alot of so called "truth" came out AFTER Oyama died. Pple flocked left and right to tell the TRUE story of Oyama, each with their own twist. (Blumming mentions that Oyama knew nothing of throw, ne waza, etc BUT in several of his books <Japanese version the english ones have much taken out of it> it shows nage waza and ne waza :confused: see what I mean) I take all legends with a grain of salt. From MY experience I have found Kyokushin a VERY good form of karate. I have become very FORMINABLE in th system, but then again I have dominate every system I under took.:D What I got from Oyama. He was a showman I will glady endorse that he LOVED to play up the GODHAND name he went by but he WAS TOUGH I don't think ANY karate man could stand up to him in his prime.As for the Bull thing, like I said he almost died fighting one in mexico, the reason I think he didn't fight many bulls in THEIR prime, I got confirmation for good sources tha Oyama was hospitalized there for a gore wound so if he NEVER fough bulls out of Japan where did the wound come form?????? Take every thing with a grain of salt.

Shaolindynasty
02-24-2002, 10:14 AM
I heard Oyama used to wrestle the bull then chop the back of the horn which is supposed to be weaker. Still a very impressive feat, how many of us could wrestle bulls of any age? Kind of reminds me of Ku Yu Chueng's iron palm killing the circus horse.

Didn't Oyama go live alone in the mountains for like 3 years with nothing but training? No matter what "stage tricks" he used I still respect him as a highly dedicated martial artist.

I don't listen to what people say after someone dies, especially if they never said it when the person was alive.

I remeber going to the sheidokan(sp?) in chicago back in 2000, That was a very intertaining tournament. I think (if i remeber right)every fight was a knockout. Effective stuff

I just watched my sabaki challenge tape. Good stuff

I don't think the training in either of these is well suited for the weekend warrior.

Real Karate and real kungfu are equally as powerful.

Chinwoo-er
02-24-2002, 10:59 AM
I think there are several problems in MA nowdays.

(1) When we attempt to "judge" a certain style through a certain person, we can never be sure he is doing that style correctly.
(2) How do we know that he was even taught correctly
(3) How do we know his master understood the style correctly ?
(4) How do we know we are understanding it correctly.

Just an analogy. I hear people say that karate has little grappling moves. And they justify it by saying it is of no use. why graple when you could bring them down with one move ? ( which is the essence of karate, I give them credit for that ). But the idea that karate has little grappling moves is not true. It has a D**n lot. It is just that nowdays, the "sportification" of karate has made masters placed so much emphsise of the striking part that the grappling and wrestling are played down. They hardly ever teach it anymore. let alone focuss on it enough for the students to know how to use it in real life

rogue
02-24-2002, 03:44 PM
"what's basic usually works best. But I find the more a teacher or style breaks things down, more people think it is advanced. "

Interesting idea. My TKD master will correct your technique but he rarely ever breaks it down. I see him do things that others make a big deal about such as triangulation, but he just kind of shows you and that's it. Works the same either way. A good example is in this months BB. In the article 10 Laws of the Fist includes almost the same things we are taught but without being called Laws. Page 83, in the section on "No Block", it states that this technique of getting out of the way is reserved for brown belts and higher but we're taught that from day one, but Kenpo is seen as a more advanced art.

Shaolindynasty
02-24-2002, 03:57 PM
rogue- I have noticed that to. Especially in the internal vs. external arguements. Allot of time the external guys do the same things that the internal guys do but internal is condidered advanced because all the rules/mechanics/principles are talked about in detail. Where allot of external guys do the same thing without realiseing it was special. It's kinda funny actually

rogue
02-24-2002, 05:06 PM
SD,
At the risk of getting flamed an example is the difference between Wing Chun and karate. Wing Chun practitioners know their concepts, have great drills and can talk a blue street about exactly what they'd do against any technique thrown against them(a trait shared with TKD people whose response is always "kick 'em!"). WC a very cool art and one I consider a "higher" art.

Karateka rarely talk about concepts except in the broadest terms, has various kumite which can be robotic and looks primitive against Chi Sao and so far very few karateka that I've talked to can tell you what they'd do against any technique except to say "I'd block it, or get out of the way or hit the guy". But somehow when you spar with them the techniques are there anyway.

DISCLAIMER:
Now this is just an example from my experience with karateka and wing chun players that I've met or know and shouldn't be read as a blanket statement about WC or any style of karate.:)

Merryprankster
02-24-2002, 06:53 PM
So if the techniques are there anyway, what's the problem? They don't talk about it enough?

rogue
02-24-2002, 07:00 PM
No problem to me, just a differen approach. Don't forget I'm in the Karate/TKD camp.

red_fists
02-24-2002, 07:01 PM
Ponders.

What is better discussing a technique or training a technique.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

rogue
02-24-2002, 07:14 PM
I'd go with training, but it was just a point about the differences between a higher more detailed arts like WC or Kempo and karate which sometimes is a strange mix of the vague and direct.

red_fists
02-24-2002, 07:18 PM
rogue.

I am with you.

Even though I study an internal Art, we don't go that much into details.

Still seem to get similar results though.

Sometimes I think that there is to much discusion going on in IMA, just trying to mail down one term in a way that makes everybody happy.

rogue
02-24-2002, 07:23 PM
Cool RF, also the Kempo I was talking about was the American kind, I'd just read an article in Black Belt by a Kempo person so it was a fresh example.

Merryprankster
02-24-2002, 07:26 PM
I guess that doesn't really clear the air any about "higher and lower" level MA's.

I personally think it's a useless, stupid categorization made by people who want to feel secure that they are the "best," because they are a "higher level" MA than some other style.

It's a pretty arbitrary and useless concept.

SevenStar
02-24-2002, 08:32 PM
I'm with you MP. While I was training with WaterDragon, we were talking about techniques in our respective styles. Many of the principles we used in MT, he used in taiji and vice versa. The karate guy I mentioned earlier uses the same principles. I think that in the end it really doesn't matter. They are just different means to the same end.

neito
02-24-2002, 11:42 PM
the only thing i dont like about karate is the "corkskrew punch" found in many karate/tkd styles. it feels like my elbows going to break or something and my wrist is very uncomfortable. of course some styles only half corkscrew or use a verticle punch like isshin ryu. they also seem to do huge overly powerful blocks in practise which seem unecessary, but i noticed when they actually fight their block are neat and snappy. anyway, i'm generally impressed with karate ;)

S.Teebas
02-25-2002, 12:10 AM
WC a very cool art and one I consider a "higher" art.

Well thanks rouge (obviously im a WC guy!), but i also want to touch on the point you made further on about people getting comfort from the knowledge that what they practice...they believe is a "Higher art" or more advanced ... I have seen many Wc people who use this idea that becasue the system is good they think: ."well I have an advantage becase my sytem is good so i will take it easy"

BIG mistake.

Because people who train harder in what these people consider a less technically advanced art, well they are going to get their a$s kicked!

These arts such as karate train d@mn hard, and it's the training which makes then VERY effective.

Conclusion: Train hard! (and be realistic)

Yung Apprentice
02-25-2002, 05:06 AM
I think to get good reslults, you should do both. Train hard, and discuss.
HHHHMMMMM I think IMA and EMA are not better than one or the other or more advanced than one or the other. I also think that by saying IMA discusses to much, that thats a very stereotypical comment.

guohuen
02-25-2002, 06:49 AM
I like the analogy of the four year old and the light switch. It still works even though the four year old doesn't understand how. How only becomes important when it's time to fix the light switch. (Imagine what it would be like if the four year oldwasn't allowed to use the light switch until they could explain electricity!)

NafAnal
02-25-2002, 07:07 AM
"Karateka rarely talk about concepts except in the broadest terms, has various kumite which can be robotic and looks primitive against Chi Sao and so far very few karateka that I've talked to can tell you what they'd do against any technique except to say "I'd block it, or get out of the way or hit the guy". But somehow when you spar with them the techniques are there anyway."

Very true. Often their technique is very good as well.

neito:
"they also seem to do huge overly powerful blocks in practise which seem unecessary, but i noticed when they actually fight their block are neat and snappy. anyway, i'm generally impressed with karate."

They "blocks" are not blocks per se. Just as the five elements are not just punches. The drilling fist is also an arm break, so is the age- uke (upper rising block)

Karate techniques in sparring usually revolve around quick slaps and parries. Karate people generally are quite capable of putting shock into an opponent with a slapping "pi" movement as any xingyi fighter. Having said that no one i've seen does it quite as well as xingyi guys... :)

Yung Apprentice
02-25-2002, 12:40 PM
I've been really looking forward to start training in Hsing-Yi.

omegapoint
02-26-2002, 02:38 AM
I really can't comment one way or the other as I am biased, but I will say that the term karate applies to many fighting styles. Some are hard. Some claim to be hard-soft. Whereas others at the highest levels, are almost exclusively soft.

As for the detailed explanations given by an internal (soft) vs. external (hard) practitioner. Details can only be given if they are known. Explanations of biomechanics, efficacy, efficiency can only be explained if the instructor has knowledge of modern and ancient scientific combative principles.

I will also say that there is a small minority of karateka who train in something that looks a lot like Chuan Fa (Gung Fu). There are some Kung Fu practitioners who fight and train like "hard" karate stylists. On the whole 95% of the MAs that are taught are modern, sport versions whether it be grappling or striking, Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese or Korean.

BTW Kata, Qigong and fighting are synonymous! If not then you are training in Kickboxing (which is cool in its own right)!

scotty1
06-12-2002, 06:38 AM
Hi

Are there really hardcore Karate Dojos in Japan where you will engage in full contact sparring and other hardcore training methods? Does it take a long time to become a black belt?

I'm not interested, just curious.

I defended Karate on another forum as someone was saying that a Karate BB would be walked all over by a one year boxing student.

I said not to judge all Karate by USA Musical Kata competitions and that a black belt from a hardcore school in Japan would more than hold his own against a one year boxing student.

However, I have no evidence of these 'hardcore schools in Japan' I just assumed they exist. Do they?

Kevin73
06-12-2002, 08:10 AM
Even in Japan from what I have read and heard from others who have trained there will have schools that focus on fighting and schools that will focus on perfection of self.

Kyukoshin is a japanese style of karate that is very hardcore from what I have read no matter where you learn it, here or there. This is just one example of someplace that trains hardcore.

Boffo
06-12-2002, 03:56 PM
Apparently they don't exist.

I know someone who went to Japan to find that 'Hardcore' Karate and found nothing but what you could find in stripmalls here in the USA.

He did find a boxing gym and kickboxing gym. They did it hard contact.

Budokan
06-13-2002, 12:41 PM
We have an "Extreme Karate" school here in Jackson, MS. Of course, it's nothing but a marketing ploy to suck in newbies and wannabe armchair warriors. I can't speak for what goes on in Japan, though.

Mr Punch
06-14-2002, 05:13 AM
Kyokushinkai over here is ALL fighting.

The drills are simple and short. The techniques are simple and short. Then it's fighting.

Boffo: I think the reason why many people say they don't exist is because they're never advertised as anything different to the norm. Yet I've met many karateka and aikidoka who are revered as having X dan, but most people don't know the difference, just like in the West. Maybe your friend was just unlucky...? You need to be lucky in who you meet to find good training over here.


The rest of the styles here seem fairly tame.

I know a guy Ryan Bow, the number two Shooto fighter here, the champion in Hawaii, who practises Kyokushinkai only. OK, OK so that's sport, and he says his groundwork sucks, but I still wouldn't challenge him to an ass-kicking contest.

SevenStar
06-17-2002, 12:26 AM
It exists. I have a friend in kumamoto who was trained that way and still currently trains that way. He does drills and fighting. He works his kata of course, but there only a few that he practices on a regular basis, as he finds them invaluable - taikyoku shodan, sanchin and a few others.

Shadow Dragon
06-17-2002, 12:48 AM
Yes, they do exist.

Besides Kara-te there are also many other Arts that are considered soft but have some hard training.
Aikido has some sub-styles of which Tomiki is the most Combat/Fighting orientated and those Guys will enter tournaments.

Most schools like the Kyokushin Dojo's are advertised as full-contact Karate in Japan.

Some of the toughest MA taught in Japan is at the Police schools. Their Kendo & Judo is VERY different and still pre-50's style.

Not sure where the Person was looking for them, if in Okinawa he will find
many a McDojo gathering for the US Troops.
As Mat said not many schools openly
advertise in Asia, so opening the yellow pages will draw many blanks.
Unless you can read the Japanese signs you might actually live next a Dojo and never know it.
Also many Styles share the same facility so multiple styles might be taught, but only the Dojo owning one is advertised.

Peace.

rogue
06-17-2002, 07:00 AM
I believe Enshin is a hardcore style.

shaolinboxer
06-19-2002, 12:13 PM
I believe "full contact sparring" is a recent introduction to karate, mostly through Mas Oyama's efforts.

Like koryu bujutsu, karate in the classical sense IS kata.

Tomiki aikido is a competition style, created by a student of Jigaro Kano (founder of Judo) sent by Kano to study aikido. Yoshinkan (founded by Gozo Shioda) is another aikido style charaterized by a feeling of practical technique.

I recommend reading the books written by Don Draeger on Japanese martial arts to better understand the evolution and meaning as Kara-te was created, shunned, adopted and modified.

SevenStar
06-19-2002, 03:24 PM
full contact is a rather new term period. The original point of karate self defense however was to kill with one blow - ichi-go; ichi-e - one encounter, one chance.

They had very arduous conditioning methods to develop that power, and of course, there was kata. Just as the samurai had challenges, I'm willing to bet that karateka did also - I'll ask my friend about that. Now that full contact has become more widespread - probably due to kyokushin, there is full contact sparring. killing with one blow isn't really the focus anymore, so this type of training is acceptable, and is a great asset anyway.

I completely overlooked the first part of the question - they also say that a one year boxer can easily beat a CMA - the reason being is that they spend alot more time sparring than most traditional styles, and so they are better with timing, are used to taking hits, etc. traditional styles by nature take longer IMO because you spend more time drilling than actually fighting - at least in the beginning. That's not a bad thing - it's just a different means of getting to the same end.

omegapoint
06-19-2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by SevenStar
full contact is a rather new term period. The original point of karate self defense however was to kill with one blow - ichi-go; ichi-e - one encounter, one chance.

I completely overlooked the first part of the question - they also say that a one year boxer can easily beat a CMA - the reason being is that they spend alot more time sparring than most traditional styles, and so they are better with timing, are used to taking hits, etc. traditional styles by nature take longer IMO because you spend more time drilling than actually fighting - at least in the beginning. That's not a bad thing - it's just a different means of getting to the same end.

The Okinawans use the term Uchichiesu instead of ichi-go; ichi-e. It means to strike in such a way that the opponent is completely defeated. Some cat made the McDojo comment about Okinawa. He is right, but McDojos are just as prevalent on the mainland (Japan). Many of the best karate teachers are in the States now. There aren't that many significant Japanese guys competing for the K1 crown. So why would someone want to train there? Hell, the Japanese don't even really like karate. They like sumo, baseball, and wrestling. BTW there is Shidokan, Enshin, Ashihara and other Kyokushinkai offshoots (ie: harder Shotokan-based karate) here in the USA and other countries.

As far as boxers beating karate guys-well 90+% of karate taught ain't worth a ****nn thing, except for fun and the harmful false glory of sport competition. I would agree with your assessment, because boxers are real fighters with good sound principles, and most karate is "hope" fighting. Understand though, that the best Senseis are totally "Juho" or soft (especially Okinawan stylists). Soft always overcomes the hard. Relaxed strength is the key to real fighting. I think that transitioning from "hard" to "hard-soft" to "soft" is the goal or original intent of karate. The Japanese never figured that out, or just can't think like that. The Chinese often start off soft. That's why they often have flexibilty and form but no real strength. The transition from hard to soft is best when learning a MA. No "easy, easy, easy" forever. Just like any other learned thing in life it starts off hard then gets easy or effortless.

Everything you need is in kata and its kihon bunkai and oyo bunkai. Karate is kata, kata, kata. If you don't do forms then you're not doing karate. You're a kickboxer, which the Muay Thai and Savate guys got locked up. Take one of those sport styles if you really want to learn kickboxing.

SevenStar
06-20-2002, 10:33 AM
nice post. you lost me on this though:

"The Chinese often start off soft. That's why they often have flexibilty and form but no real strength. The transition from hard to soft is best when learning a MA."

You think the chinese do it backwards?

shaolinboxer
06-20-2002, 11:53 AM
I think also a simple fact in life is that nobody is born with the ability to not freak out when they get hit in the face. You have to learn that in sparring, and that advantage alone puts boxers out way ahead of some traditional MAs.

"The Okinawans use the term Uchichiesu instead of ichi-go; ichi-e. It means to strike in such a way that the opponent is completely defeated."

This is one way of looking at it, but I prefer to think of it as making the right decision, at the right time, on the first try (a bit broader definition, but still analogous to the one strike one kill concept). The hawaiians, who incase you didn't know were serious badazz 7 foot tall warriors, have a term ...hemolele'ole....meaning perfection....which carries the same concept. i just got back from Hawaii...they have a fascinating history of warrior culture, and many marital arts filtered into the US through Hawaii just after WWII. But that's a bit OT.

SevenStar
06-20-2002, 02:17 PM
hawaiians or samoans?

omegapoint
06-20-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by SevenStar
nice post. you lost me on this though:

"The Chinese often start off soft. That's why they often have flexibilty and form but no real strength. The transition from hard to soft is best when learning a MA."

You think the chinese do it backwards?

Hey bruh, I made a serious error when I used a general term like "Chinese". What I meant to say was that getting really good at an Internal System like Tai Chi takes years and years of practice. Harder External Systems, Like Shaolin Lohan Chuan, can make a decent fighter out of you in 6 mos. to a year, usually. Trust me though Internal masters like Professor Zheng Manqing could handle practically any stylist, external or internal.

Some styles like White Lotus, are really, really soft and even their forms lack any whipping power. They would have a hard time with say, a good Kyokushinkai guy of comparable time in art and skill.

Systems like White Crane use a soft concept intermeshed with some external principles. The balance of the two can lead to explosive, relaxed execution and power.

All that being said, the Internal Systems prepare the stylist to become better with age. When you're young external power will suffice, but if you are mugged or attacked at 70 and you can't even move because you've destroyed your body with continuous hard training, then all the years you put into training will amount to nada.

So do I think the Chinese have it backwards? Heck, no. Those Chuan Fa guys I saw sparring in the BB matches at the last AAU tourney my school entered, will be able to do that stuff until they are 80. They may never win first place in Kumite, but that ain't real fighting anyway. The Shotokan and even Goju guys will look like the walking wounded by then. Plus I'm a Shorin guy who learns from someone who stresses going away from the hard as you progress through the BB ranks. Hard is temporary and harmful. Soft, like water pounding on coastlines, turns mountains into beaches.

shaolinboxer
06-21-2002, 12:43 PM
Seven Star - Since Hawaiians are partailly descended from Samoans... I guess you could say both. But I was specifically talking about the tribes on Hawaii. The social structure has been likened to the pharocy of egypt.

The supposed true native hawaiian (thet were there when the boats arrive from polynesia) were called Menehune. They were supposed to be 3 feet tall and would build things like fishing ponds and wells over night. Now they are (if they ever existed) extinct and are sort of like a cross between a gremlin and a leprechaun, depicted on bottles of water and on minimart signs (shop at the Menehune Mall) .

Surferdude
02-17-2003, 03:03 PM
I do, but its a karate taekwondo mix, I want to know if anyone studies Traditional Karate-do or like Shotokan karate.:)

TKD
02-18-2003, 01:41 PM
I used to do Okinawan Shorin Ryu Karate. Now I do Tae Kwon Do mixed with Brazilian Jiu Jitsu. Very nice combo, you get the grappling and the kicks. Doesn't get any better. :)

Budokan
02-19-2003, 04:20 PM
I've only ever studied traditional karate-do. Started off in isshin-ryu and now study shotokan. Love it, too. I thought about dropping it and moving on to something else, but I've got so much time invested in the art I hate to quit now because I'm afraid I'll miss out on learning something else...and I always learn something when I go to class.:D

'MegaPoint
02-19-2003, 05:03 PM
I've studied Boxing, Judo and BJJ. Shorin beats them all. Matsumura Seito Shorin Ryu KarateJUTSU, to be exact!

Surferdude
02-20-2003, 01:19 PM
Yea i like karate because its got alot of fast powerful stirkes and throws... I love to throw people around!!!:D

Surferdude
02-25-2003, 12:51 PM
Hahaha, I now study Traditional(sp) Shotokan Karate:D I love it!!
Now I have to change my profile and tell my old Instuctor.... uh oh!!:eek: :( It'll be ok though!!!

Leto
02-26-2003, 12:57 PM
studied Matsubayashi Shorin Ryu, formally, all through adolescent/teen years. (about 8 years) studied, informally, Shorin Ryu and Kobujutsu in Okinawan, while stationed there. (2 years)

Now I'm practicing shaolin kung fu, and tai chi (1+ years), but progressing very quickly due to my previous training.

I will probably go back to Matsubayashi, or at least Shorin Ryu, if I ever find myself in an area with a good teacher again...I want to complete learning of Kusanku, the only kata I didn't finish from previous training.

Cheese Dog
03-04-2003, 09:53 PM
I have studied TKD and Shotokan in the past. For the past several years I have studied Tomari-te Ryukyu Kempo (traditional Okinawan Kempo) and intend to practice it to the day I die. Of course I have cross-trained in BJJ, Hung Gar kungfu and Xing-I, but Kempo has always been my main focus.

Leto, I know Kusanku. If you are anywhere near the northern Kentucky area I would be happy to show it to you. Of course the version I know might be slightly different.

Leto
03-05-2003, 06:53 AM
CheeseDog...where did you learn Tomari Te? I didn't think there was anyone teaching that branch alone anymore. I know it had been incorporated into some shorin ryu styles with Shuri te...like Matsubayashi ryu has several forms that were pratciced in Tomari. Unfortunately I am not near Kentucky, but thanks anyway. I might try to pick it up from Nagamine Sensei's book, and an mpeg I've got from someone in my branch...but it's a pretty long kata. Nothing like having someone to correct you.

'MegaPoint
03-06-2003, 02:35 AM
Matsubayashi Ryu uses the Chatan Yara Version of Kusanku. This is one of the original forms of Kusanku. Those of Chibana Ha (Chibana's School) like Kobayashi Ryu and of Matsumura Ha (Matsumura Seito) use the Kusanku Sho and Dai forms. Two different kata instead of one. In addition, Matsumura Shorin also teaches Kusanku Mei, a very old form of Kusanku. Motobu Ryu utilizes Shiho Kusanku, a different kata altogether. Kusanku has everything from tuite (grappling) to flying kicks. Very good bunkai to be gleaned.

There is a lot of bad karate out there. then again, there is a lot of mediocre and substandard stuff in all facets of life. If you find a good and reasonable Sensei stick with them no matter what style you take. Karate is a beautiful tradition.

Cheese Dog
03-06-2003, 11:39 PM
Leto;

The style I study is headed by George Dillman, who claims to have learned Tomari-te in Okinawa. Personally I don't know, most of the history books only talk about Naha-te and Shuri-te, with Tomari-te pretty much disappearing in modern times. I really don't much care WHAT he calls it, I like Ryukyu Kempo and find it works for me very well.

I'm not sure of the lineage of the version of Kusanku I was taught, but 'Mega Point is quite right about one thing--VERY good bunkai! My instructor and I went through the kata a few weeks ago trying to find all of the neck-breaks. Good times...

jun_erh
03-12-2003, 03:00 PM
I didn't realize it was a legitamte martial art till I saw thing about it on Discovery channel. It was this fat guy wh taught a class, then he went to his teacher and gt his ass kicked. The Karate schools near me (suburbs USA) seem more like day care centers than anything else.

Surferdude
03-13-2003, 02:31 PM
Sadly some are:( they don't teach very well, makes me mad when that happens!!!:mad:
But my scholl is very good, part of the ISKF (International Shotokan Karate Federation) and the JKA (Japan Karate Association) (sp)
I love it!!!:D

ShaolinTiger00
03-31-2003, 03:40 PM
http://66.199.179.250/bk.wmv

dezhen2001
03-31-2003, 03:43 PM
LOL :D

dawood

joedoe
03-31-2003, 03:59 PM
LOL. That is so funny :D

dezhen2001
03-31-2003, 04:54 PM
its actually pretty funny how close to reality that is - at least here in the West Midlands :D

dawood

joedoe
03-31-2003, 05:06 PM
I figured it was closer to how fighting goes down in England - the classic move was the headbutt. Such a signature move :D

dezhen2001
03-31-2003, 05:08 PM
and not forgetting the good old football kick on the ground :eek:

dawood

shaolin kungfu
03-31-2003, 05:19 PM
That was hillarious!!

ArrowFists
03-31-2003, 05:26 PM
LoL, that was pretty good. Those Brits are crazy.

dezhen2001
03-31-2003, 05:45 PM
now u know why tokyo riot police were out in full battle gear for the world cup - imagine facing 100 drunk guys like that :eek:

dawood

LEGEND
03-31-2003, 05:57 PM
Looks like his students were French-asians. :)

Starchaser107
03-31-2003, 07:36 PM
hahahahahahahaha:D

Guile
03-31-2003, 11:06 PM
i coulndt view it :(

Kinjit
03-31-2003, 11:55 PM
That's old- but still. That guy knows kali!
Windmilling in =single six

Liokault
04-01-2003, 01:41 AM
I feel so proud :D

Internal Boxer
04-01-2003, 03:14 AM
LOL, :D :D :D, sheer class, I have seen it before, but it was just as funny the second time around. But its so true of the way the typical guy fights, I know it sounds ridiculus but it is useful to train to defend yourself against windmill (haymaker)punches since they are so common over here, systema blocks are excellent for this.;)

davethedragon
04-01-2003, 03:17 AM
excellent stuff good old fashioned visciousness a very powerful weapon.
headbutts are great very easy to defend against but if you land one its usually game over.hard to train though without gettign a splitting headache!!!:D :D

dezhen2001
04-01-2003, 03:31 AM
dont need ot train it - just need around 10 pints so you cant feel anything :D

dawood

David Jamieson
04-01-2003, 03:33 AM
that's comedy! :D

cheers

Kristoffer
04-01-2003, 04:48 AM
:D

Felipe Bido
04-01-2003, 07:20 AM
Excellent!

And actually, if there was more training like that, we'd see better schools.

I'm going to post this on EF. Thanks, ST00 :D

chen zhen
06-06-2003, 02:14 AM
Karate used to be a very popular MA, and it's maybe the most famous MA style name in the world, as most people would say "Oooh, Karate!" if you mention you practise MA. But the style have degraded in popularity, ever since the UFC/NHB/MMA hype that have risen a few years ago.
Does anyone think Karate as an art will ever prevail and be respected in the MA community again? Is it worth it? Is it really a good style, and what do you think Karate should do to be respected again?

opinions maybe from Budokan and Rogue would be great ;)

:o

Former castleva
06-06-2003, 06:00 AM
Ah,there´s popularity and then there is popularity...
Mass media,UFC,trends and all this,then there must be serious involvement down there.

chen zhen
06-06-2003, 06:12 AM
I said USED to be popular, you know in the 1960-80s period.

shaolinboxer
06-06-2003, 11:24 AM
Actually Karate is as popular as ever if not more so.

UFC and all of that is a fringe activity. Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Tai Chi and Judo rule the mainstream.

Just because people who post on the web disrespect karate, it does not follow that the "martial arts community" thinks that way.

In reality, it is the UFC and MMA that does not have the respect of our society at large.

chen zhen
06-06-2003, 01:14 PM
Oh. did'nt see it that way. The McDojos are anyware, in any country in the world, and it's mostly karate that is taught in these.
I could rephrase the question: what could karate do to gain respect as a REAL, efficient combat art? I don't think personally that they could do anything, if they don't take some good things from other arts as well. It's not a very varied style (or style-s, there's hundreds of Karate styles as well)

sweaty_dog
06-06-2003, 08:06 PM
Karate sometimes is a good style, there's just a lot of variation. Shidokan, some kempo and some kyokushin are good. The problem is a lot of karate is a kind of children's self esteem and shouting club. When people think of Karate they think of fat guys doing reverse punches and exaggerated blocks, when in reality there are some good kickboxers etc from karate backgrounds.

Have a look at black belt and similar magazines... UFC is on the front page, where it used to be hidden away in the editorial about those nasty dirty men giving martial arts a bad name. The times they are a-changin'!

dc_jowga
06-08-2003, 04:00 AM
from tiger schullmen, very funny!

http://www.tsk.com/mediagallery/video/

'MegaPoint
06-08-2003, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by chen zhen
Oh. did'nt see it that way. The McDojos are anyware, in any country in the world, and it's mostly karate that is taught in these.
I could rephrase the question: what could karate do to gain respect as a REAL, efficient combat art? I don't think personally that they could do anything, if they don't take some good things from other arts as well. It's not a very varied style (or style-s, there's hundreds of Karate styles as well)

I have had the privilege to study "karate" in the PI and Okinawa as well as stateside now for some 20+years. I did boxing and Judo for 8 years prior to that, and I can say that the karate I learned overseas is real and more effective for the streets than boxing and judo. Real combat karate is not Kyokushinkai or Shotokan or Shidokan or whatever modern eclectic Japanese style you can name. Those are pale imitations of Okinawan Bujutsu. they are yen producers and agents for crippling cats.

In Okinawan Karate all ranges and weapons are taught. Newaza or groundfighting is covered but is not the only focus like some very good modern styles (GJJ). With the exception of Matsumura Kenpo (Sport/Kumite inspired "Orthodox" Shorin) and Matsubayashi, all ryuha (subsystems) of Shorin Ryu are very good combat styles (IMHO). I especially liked Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin (Shuri Te) as well as Shobayashi. Higaonna Goju and Uechi Ryu are also real solid fighting styles (for the street, not the a/c'ed-padded ring).

Asking questions like this to a bunch of media programmed sport lovers will get you nowhere. How do they know what they have never experienced? The real karate schools are the 1-2% of schools out there. You have to search for good things. They are not advertised in the Yellow Pages! You will hurt yourself doing Kyokushinkai or hard sparring karate, so what good are they for keeipng you weapon (your mind-body) sharp? These are short-sighted styles, with emphasis on self-mutilation.

Remember that >98% of all arts out there are diluted, superficial and for $$$ making. You'll know if you find a good teacher/dojo. Try your wrestling and boxiing on the sensei and watch him slap you around like a bee-yotch. I hope you guys see the fallacy in just learning sport oriented styles.

BTW where is BJJ and Wrestling now that people have learned to strike at the intermediate level? The element of surprise can be your greatest ally. There are very few martialists that don't know the BJJ tricks or some wrestling nowadays. Showing your arse to the world is stupid. I would have never divulged the secrets of GJJ if I was Rorion, but oh well, I still totally respect their style.

Golden things last. You are right to assume that MOST karate is BS. Most folks can't fight anyway. So even if they learn BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai a real ruffneck will wax them because of surprise, intent and willpower. I agree that almost all MAs suck and karate is a lot that is taught out there. It ain't really karate, but there are some real fighting karate-ka out there. Trust me. What I do will be around forever (like it's always been), and where will all these other sport styles be in a few years? Think about it...

Laughing Cow
06-08-2003, 04:46 PM
Megapoint.

Good post.

Martial Arts like anything go through fads, more so in the west than in the east.

Like with anything something new comes up and Wham you got plenty of shops, schools, etc.

Once the fad dies out usually only the good ones remain, and the REALLY good ones were there before, during and after the Fad but got overlooked for the flashier, fancier fly-by-night stuff.


Cheers.

sweaty_dog
06-09-2003, 01:15 AM
Originally posted by 'MegaPoint


I have had the privilege to study "karate" in the PI and Okinawa as well as stateside now for some 20+years. I did boxing and Judo for 8 years prior to that, and I can say that the karate I learned overseas is real and more effective for the streets than boxing and judo. Real combat karate is not Kyokushinkai or Shotokan or Shidokan or whatever modern eclectic Japanese style you can name. Those are pale imitations of Okinawan Bujutsu. they are yen producers and agents for crippling cats.

In Okinawan Karate all ranges and weapons are taught. Newaza or groundfighting is covered but is not the only focus like some very good modern styles (GJJ). With the exception of Matsumura Kenpo (Sport/Kumite inspired "Orthodox" Shorin) and Matsubayashi, all ryuha (subsystems) of Shorin Ryu are very good combat styles (IMHO). I especially liked Shorinkan and Matsumura Orthodox Shorin (Shuri Te) as well as Shobayashi. Higaonna Goju and Uechi Ryu are also real solid fighting styles (for the street, not the a/c'ed-padded ring).

Asking questions like this to a bunch of media programmed sport lovers will get you nowhere. How do they know what they have never experienced? The real karate schools are the 1-2% of schools out there. You have to search for good things. They are not advertised in the Yellow Pages! You will hurt yourself doing Kyokushinkai or hard sparring karate, so what good are they for keeipng you weapon (your mind-body) sharp? These are short-sighted styles, with emphasis on self-mutilation.

Remember that >98% of all arts out there are diluted, superficial and for $$$ making. You'll know if you find a good teacher/dojo. Try your wrestling and boxiing on the sensei and watch him slap you around like a bee-yotch. I hope you guys see the fallacy in just learning sport oriented styles.

BTW where is BJJ and Wrestling now that people have learned to strike at the intermediate level? The element of surprise can be your greatest ally. There are very few martialists that don't know the BJJ tricks or some wrestling nowadays. Showing your arse to the world is stupid. I would have never divulged the secrets of GJJ if I was Rorion, but oh well, I still totally respect their style.
Golden things last. You are right to assume that MOST karate is BS. Most folks can't fight anyway. So even if they learn BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai a real ruffneck will wax them because of surprise, intent and willpower. I agree that almost all MAs suck and karate is a lot that is taught out there. It ain't really karate, but there are some real fighting karate-ka out there. Trust me. What I do will be around forever (like it's always been), and where will all these other sport styles be in a few years? Think about it...

I don't think longevity is any guarantee of effectiveness. There are people in the jungle who've been killing each other with spears for hundreds of years, that doesn't make a spear better than a gun. I respect the shidokan and kyukoshin guys because they step up and fight, they risk their reputations even if it is in a "padded ring" (I love the way people think getting in the ring with a professional fighter for 12 rounds is somehow a soft option). I'm prepared to believe that there might be some great traditional karate styles out there but really, everyone thinks their own style is the best, it'll take more than one post to convince anyone. For what it's worth, BJJ and wrestling still dominate MMA competition... that's where they are. Maybe they are losing out there on the glass covered streets to gangs of rogue traditional karateka, but in competition they seem to do OK.

neit
06-09-2003, 02:04 AM
goofy to say the least. this guy has impressive credentials but his company looks like a joke.

chen zhen
06-09-2003, 05:02 AM
thanks for the replies! good posts.
I knew for some reason that the traditional Okinawa-te styles would be brought up, as effective styles. I've seen it before on TV, brutal stuff!

rogue
06-09-2003, 09:09 AM
So even if they learn BJJ, Boxing and Muay Thai a real ruffneck will wax them because of surprise, intent and willpower. How dare you speak such unholy things!:mad: ;)

Did the hard sparring karate/TKD thing, I finally got tired of spending so much time injured and not being able to train so I quit. Finally went back to do the same style but I cut back on the sparring to once a week tops. I do spend more time doing drills, which is something that was anathema to me last year but I'm missing less classes and learning more.

Nothing wrong with ring sports but if you aren't going to compete why train at that level?

Dark Knight
06-09-2003, 01:29 PM
The word Karate is very generic. Kenpo has a good rep, but its a Karate style.

Ive seen a lot of great karate fighters in the 25 years i have been around. Many do kickboxing, and many people tie the two together.

Karate is not suffering at all, today there are three styles of MA people talk about, Karate, Kung Fu and BJJ. They dont know that there are hundreds of Karate and KF styles.

TKD is grouped with Karate, but its so different it shouldnt (I know of its roots in Shotakan).

People outside of KF do not think highly of it, but they dont know of the true fighting styles and training that goes on, they dont know there are styles similar to Judo.

Ignorance and pride keeps people from seeing the truth. They want to believe that what they do is the best and only way to go. And they dont want to ruin that picture.

'MegaPoint
06-09-2003, 01:57 PM
Originally posted by Dark Knight
The word Karate is very generic. Kenpo has a good rep, but its a Karate style.

Ignorance and pride keeps people from seeing the truth. They want to believe that what they do is the best and only way to go. And they dont want to ruin that picture.

Thanks for the compliments and civil replies!

I agree with you totally. I hope I'm not guilty of that. I love GJJ/BJJ and I know that in order to be successful in MMAs a solid groundfighting background is essential. Conversely, the strikers are knocking even some Gracies out. Maybe they shouldn't train in something like boxing if they are going to fight NHB. It takes a lot of time in the gym, and lots of roadwork, to be a good boxer. Plus, boxing gloves help with knockouts. Learning to punch with gloves on and learning to K.O. someone on the street or in MMAs is 2 different things. Plus, GJJ takes a lot of training time too.

Kenpo (Japanese for "Chuan Fa") is a very general term. The Kenpo that is of American/Hawaiian lineage is not the Kenpo of Okinawa or Shorinji Kempo of Japan. It is an amalgamation of certain karate styles and other arts, and some of Mitose's and Parker's ideas of how to fight. What I've seen of it is "different". It definitley doesn't look like the Kenpo taught on Okinawa.

The GJJ guys are still fairly successful at NHB competition. I just don't agree with teaching every knucklehead such an awesome style. Oh well. As for the wrestlers being good all-around fighters. They are just like any other super athlete. They train really hard and get really strong and quick. They drill and sweat and get cauliflower ears, bad joints and get killed by gay Du Ponts. Whatever. I do MAs for self-preservation not glory, power trips or money. I also do it because I respect a traditon that many agree is slowly going extinct. If one person is doing something there's always a chance for a revival. 'Nawmean?

'MegaPoint
06-09-2003, 02:44 PM
Originally posted by sweaty_dog


I don't think longevity is any guarantee of effectiveness. There are people in the jungle who've been killing each other with spears for hundreds of years, that doesn't make a spear better than a gun. I respect the shidokan and kyukoshin guys because they step up and fight, they risk their reputations even if it is in a "padded ring" (I love the way people think getting in the ring with a professional fighter for 12 rounds is somehow a soft option). I'm prepared to believe that there might be some great traditional karate styles out there but really, everyone thinks their own style is the best, it'll take more than one post to convince anyone. For what it's worth, BJJ and wrestling still dominate MMA competition... that's where they are. Maybe they are losing out there on the glass covered streets to gangs of rogue traditional karateka, but in competition they seem to do OK.

When you are old and crippled from MMAs training how you gonna oprotect yourself from that carjacker at the red light? Longevity is EVERYTHING. I'll kick a world class wrestlers ass when he's 70 and I'm 70, 'cause I'll be healthy and he'll be broke up.

No they aren't losing on glass covered streets, but try that BS on concrete and get broke down or a major case of road rash. Real Karate is for fighting only. Kumite is a new invention. Sparring is for folks that are sporty. Sport is not life no matter what the media and western culture tells you. I'm sure GJJ guys and Boxers and the like can take care of themselves in the street, but if you're suffering from the effects of a concussion or torn ACL how you gonna protect you and yours for Joe Mugger? That is the intent of real MAs. No frills, flash and dash or fireworks. No ref whatsoever except for your conscience or lack thereof.

Unless you train in MMAs standup and ground, 6 hours everyday, you'll never be good enough to win those cherished competitions. Most cats are average, and without natural ability, speed and strength, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (sorry for the cliche). This is regardless of whether or not they do Shaolin Do or Muay Thai. Just 'cause you practice your jumpshot everyday from the time you are 20 years old 'til you are 50 doesn't mean you'll be a Steve Kerr caliber outside shooter. Are you getting my gist? None of you will EVER be Gracie caliber. And even they get beat...

Shidokan is cool, but K1 really sucks. Bad. I have no respect for a fighting game that showcases (almost exclusively) 200+ lb. beefy boys. Karate is for the meek and weak. Those guys don't need any MAs they just need a little practice in kicking and punching, and some steroids. After all that is what karate is about!

Changing programmed minds is impossible. Take the Jews and Muslims for example. How can one ever "feel" the other, unless they learn empathy? In order to have empathy you'd have to have been there and done that. Try getting a Hindi to eat a juicy steak. See what I'm saying? It's what you know, not what you don't know that dictates your reality. I know both sides of the fence.

I sponsored a Caique JJ seminar in Texas a couple of years back (check the KFO archives for verification if you don't believe me). I know Ryron and Renner personally (homies) and have trained privates at Gracie Torrance. Those guys aren't anyone on here. Not even 7* and Merryprankster could hold a candle to them in the grappling arena. They respect who I am and what I do, and they do think there are good styles of karate out there. They have told me so after meeting me and "feeling" me.

So I won't change your mind and you can't change mine fo' sheez'. I know things a lot of cats don't. I can tell by their responses on KFO, the Unda'ground and ebudo--- Nathan--- just bandwagoneers (like those who jock the Lakers without looking at the fact that they are a 2 man team). Without one clue. What some people know might hurt you. Please believe that.

Oh yeah... Go Spurs, Go!!!

chingei
06-09-2003, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by 'MegaPoint

I'll kick A world class wrestlers ass when he's 70 and I'm 70,

Now, that's just beyond pathetic.

Merryprankster
06-09-2003, 06:42 PM
I know Ryron and Renner personally (homies) and have trained privates at Gracie Torrance.

Quite true, I couldn't hold a candle to those guys! LOL.

I'm quite clear that what I do is a sport. It's a sport that makes me a somewhat more dangerous opponent than the average joe, but, then again, I never got into this because I wanted self-defense training. I use my wits and perception and don't go to dumb-ass places and that covers most of it.

On the other hand, I don't think that great masters of any sort got that way by doing kata and one step drills. I would have to argue that the concept of sparring is not exactly new. After all, I'm fairly certain that swordsman in Japan probably used wooden or similar replicas to practice, no?

I guess my feeling is that while the ring is not the street, neither is the training hall.

FWIW, a 70 year old wrestler is not necessarily going to be any more broken than a 70 year old karateka. It's the competition and training for competition at it's highest levels that break you down. That's the price you pay for it. Dan Gable? Yup, he's in a bad way. But, there are plenty of work-a-day guys who just do it for fun. Now, reverse it, and talk about a 70 year old karateka ring-fighter and your work-a-day wrestler, and I'll put money that the wrestler is probably less damaged than our former ringfighter.

sweaty_dog
06-10-2003, 01:44 AM
Originally posted by 'MegaPoint


When you are old and crippled from MMAs training how you gonna oprotect yourself from that carjacker at the red light? Longeviyt is EVERYTHING. I'll kick A world class wrestlers ass when he's 70 and I'm 70, 'cause I'll be healthy and he'll be broke up.
Longevity as in how long the martial art has been around. Of course avoiding serious injuries is important. There are lots of busted up karateka and lots of busted up boxers, wrestlers etc out there. Maybe I'll get hit by a bus tomorrow. Who knows? There is no set way to train anyway, I can do just do techniques and stretch when I get older.


No they aren't losing on glass covered streets, but try that BS on concrete and get broke down or a major case of road rash. Real Karate is for fighting only. Kumite is a new invention. Sparring is for folks that are sporty. Sport is not life no matter what the media and western culture tells you. I'm sure GJJ guys and Boxers and the like can take care of themselves in the street, but if you're suffering from the effects of a concussion or torn ACL how you gonna protect you and yours for Joe Mugger? That is the intent of real MAs. No frills, flash and dash or fireworks. No ref whatsoever except for your conscience or lack thereof.

Sparring is FUN. It also helps you develop skills in a safe environment, so you don't have to find out whether you can really fight or not when someone tries to crack your head open. If you spar hard enough to get hurt all the time then you spar too **** hard.


Unless you train in MMAs standup and ground, 6 hours everyday, you'll never be good enough to win those cherished competitions. Most cats are average, and without natural ability, speed and strength, couldn't fight their way out of a wet paper bag (sorry for the cliche). This is regardless of whether or not they do Shaolin Do or Muay Thai. Just 'cause you practice your jumpshot everyday from the time you are 20 years old 'til you are 50 doesn't mean you'll be a Steve Kerr caliber outside shooter. Are you getting my gist? None of you will EVER be Gracie caliber. And even they get beat...
Not necessarily true. A lot of people train less than 6 hours a day. I'm really not looking at winning competitions, just training in a realistic and enjoyable way. Will I be Gracie calibre? Huh? Where did I say I wanted to be better than the Gracies? No, not on the ground. It's not too much of a stretch to think I could strike better than Royce though. I'm also probably stronger than quite a few of them and have more reach. I don't base my faith in BJJ in their results in the ring, I base it on how they train compared to other styles I have tried, and the fact that the people are often a lot easier to get along with.


Shidokan is cool, but K1 really sucks. Bad. I have no respect for a fighting game that showcases (almost exclusively) 200+ lb. beefy boys. Karate is for the meek and weak. Those guys don't need any MAs they just need a little practice in kicking and punching, and some steroids. After all that is what karate is about!
What are you talking about? I'm 200lbs, and I still think martial arts are a great idea. Plenty of lighter guys can school me with superior technique and stamina, and there are a hell of a lot of people heavier than 200lbs out there. I'm not crazy about k1 either, but I respect their fighting ability and the balls they have to get up in front of a crowd and go for it. If you don't like people who are over 190 pounds thats up to you, but they fight much like everyone else. Maybe they should have a lightweight tournament as well, but people like to see the heavyweights knock each other out so that is who they put on stage.


Changing programmed minds is impossible. Take the Jews and Muslims for example. How can one ever "feel" the other, unless they learn empathy? In order to have empathy you'd have to have been there and done that. Try getting a Hindi to eat a juicy steak. See what I'm saying? It's what you know, not what you don't know that dictates your reality. I know both sides of the fence.
Huh? Hindus? Steak? So you can see both sides, but your side is the only one that's right? I've tried TMAs, some of them I respect very much but they don't suit me and I think they are too afraid of change. If you want to do traditional karate, OK, but why put down sport styles which consistantly turn out good fighters? I only mentioned those styles because they are the ones I've seen in action... why should I believe they are far worse than some mystery style that a guy on the internet likes?



I sponsored a Caique JJ seminar in Texas a couple of years back (check the KFO archives for verification if you don't believe me). I know Ryron and Renner personally (homies) and have trained privates at Gracie Torrance. Those guys aren't anyone on here. Not even 7* and Merryprankster could hold a candle to them in the grappling arena. They respect who I am and what I do, and they do think there are good styles of karate out there. They have told me so after meeting me and "feeling" me.
That's nice. I think there are good styles of karate too. That was the whole point of my post.


So I won't change your mind and you can't change mine fo' sheez'. I know things a lot of cats don't. I can tell by their responses on KFO, the Unda'ground and ebudo--- Nathan--- just bandwagoneers (like those who jock the Lakers without looking at the fact that they are a 2 man team). Without one clue. What some people know might hurt you. Please believe that.

Yes, you are no doubt very wise. The funny thing is, I already did respect karate... I just said that there are a lot of lousy karate schools out there. Most karate people would agree with me. If it makes you happier I feel the same way about BJJ players that base their whole game on pulling guard and doing fancy stuff with the gi. If you think "fat guys doing reverse punches and exaggerated blocks" applies to you, then that's a shame, but I don't recall mentioning anything about your style.


Oh yeah... Go Spurs, Go!!!
I know nothing about basketball (baseball, whatever this is).

Surferdude
06-10-2003, 05:48 PM
Shotokan Karate says it all!!!
I just went to a master camp this weekend(anyone go???)
there was alot of people there too, people from Trinidad, French Guyana, Russia, and Canada came.
Shotokan has some good fighting skills too, I used to go to a Mcdojo (before i knew what it was ) and the things they taught had no power or effectivness, but now in Shotokan I have much more power. Karate is still popular and very effective.
So everyone should do Shotokan!!!!!!:D ;) :p :cool: :)

bodhitree
06-11-2003, 05:32 AM
Hey
are Karate Katas as long with as many movements as Gung Fu forms? I never practiced Karate so I dont know. I know that TKD forms are very small, there were poeple at my dads TKD school that were complaining about learning a form (hyung) that had 24 movements. I felt like telling them "24 movements, try learning something with 130 movements that takes 3 months of daily reciting to learn". Just curious

Surferdude
06-11-2003, 02:24 PM
Some karate kata are 20 or so moves (Heian shodan and nidan) others can go up to 65(hangetsu). But they have a certain rythm to it so some are faster while others are slower.;)
They all stop back in the same spot where you start too.
Heian shodan first kata has exactly 21 moves.Nidan has 25, Just thought you would like to know. hehehe:D

rogue
06-11-2003, 06:13 PM
Surfer Dude, just make sure you don't tell him about the secret deadly technique at the end of chinte!

chen zhen
06-12-2003, 02:31 AM
Stupid Rogue! Now you told it!:D

Anyway, here's a new BL pic for ya;)

Surferdude
06-12-2003, 12:04 PM
Hahaha o yea thats a sick move!!!:D
Yea dont tell him!!!:mad:

Wait why is that guy in a black gi???
ehh nevermind:D

chen zhen
06-12-2003, 03:35 PM
It's not a black gi. That's Bruce Lee

Surferdude
06-13-2003, 12:47 PM
Is it??:confused:
O yea it is holy ****!!! I didnt look hard enough!!!:D
Sorry master!!

chen zhen
06-13-2003, 12:49 PM
master, and master.. depends on how you look at it;)

But is'nt it degrading seeing him knocking a karate BB on his ass?:D

TKD
06-13-2003, 02:37 PM
The longest pattern in Tae Kwon Do is So-San, 72 moves. The last 2 patterns you learn are the shortest, Saju-Jirugi(next to last)has 7 moves, and the last Saju-Makgi has 8 moves.

TKD

Surferdude
06-14-2003, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by chen zhen
master, and master.. depends on how you look at it;)

But is'nt it degrading seeing him knocking a karate BB on his ass?:D

I dunno, I think i'd be honored to have my ass kicked by Bruce:D

chen zhen
06-14-2003, 05:09 AM
It would be more honorable to kick bruce's ass

Surferdude
06-14-2003, 01:50 PM
true:D

Yung Apprentice
06-19-2003, 12:06 AM
I remember when I was taking TKD, a guy came from Okinawa, and had studied Okinanowan (I spelled that wrong didn't I?) Karate there. In his first full contact match, he accidently injured someone. He didn't mean to. I guess where he trained at, when they sparred, they were taught what to do, what not to do, and avoiding injury, and were better prepared. But the way he injured this poor schlub, with such ease, I knew right then, after two and a half years of TKD, and thinking I knew a lot about combat, that I hardly knew anything.

nothingness
06-19-2003, 09:10 PM
I'm looking around for a good class that can teach me some good self defense skills in a relatively speedy/reasonable amount of time. (in Vancouver, BC). Recently I've checked out a hapkido, wing chun, and Okinawan goju ryu class. I"m leaning towards the goju ryu, with possibly a couple judo classes a week on the side. So, 'Megapoint, I was curious as to your opinion on Okinawan Goju Ryu and judo, please. Also, this sensei doesn't do weapons training. thanks-

Oh, there's also a shorin ryu class in town, taught by a student of Daniel Kogan's (who I believe is the premiere or one of the premiere teachers of his style of shorin in North America), but I think the goju guys been training alot longer (around 30+years). The shorin site is, I think, at okinawakaratedo.com The goju sensei doesn't have a site. If that address doesn't work, do a search for Daniel Kogan.

rogue
06-20-2003, 05:54 PM
I'm looking around for a good class that can teach me some good self defense skills in a relatively speedy/reasonable amount of time.

How do you define speedy and reasonable? It's better to not look for a quick fix in most classical arts as they'll disappoint you.

Any how much of self defense has nothing to do with martial arts of any kind. Truck on down to your bookstore and pick up Strong on Defense and The Gift of Fear. These two books will give you a great start in self defense.

I'd pick Shorin.

Yung Apprentice
06-20-2003, 11:51 PM
Gojo is one of the better Karate styles in my opinion. I've seen some bad a$$ men come from there. But I know nothing of Shorin, so I couldn't reccomend it.

Of course it all goes down to, do you like the school, which sensei knows how to teach, blah,blah,blah you all know the rest. Only reason one should choose a style between two, is if both schools are equally (or close to it) good.

Surferdude
06-21-2003, 07:54 AM
Definitley the goju ryu school.
Its pretty good and your stances will be really, really strong.
Not alot of kicks though, the Hapkido place will have alot of kicks.:D

nothingness
06-21-2003, 11:20 AM
Rogue- I define speedy and reasonable as, in a year I should have some decent skills against an untrained fighter (assuming class 2 or 3 times a week+practicing on almost all days I don't have class for 20 minutes to an hour) and in 2 years have GOOD skills against an untrained fighter and after 3 or more years be pretty darn good.

On a side note, I went to a judo class yesterday for the first time in about 6 months last night. Holy smokes, was I winded! I quit smoking cigs a week ago and we were doing ALOT of randori (I'm a real beginner in judo) and I felt like I was going to pass out. Of course, the fact that I was doing randori on the ground with a black belt and twice he just came up to me, grabbed the front of my gi near my neck with two hands and did an instant/choke strangle on me didn't help much (A TOTALLY SWEET MOVE, by the way). I know judo is a sport but I do feel that it can and will be a good vehicle for me to get some decent self defense skills quickly.

Otherwise, I'm going to check out a bujinkan taijutsu class next week. How's everyone feel about taijutsu? Then, in about two weeks, when I have the $, I'll start an MA, probably the goju ryu, with some judo (unless the taijutsu teacher blows me away).

Incidentally, I checked out a wing chun class the other day, which I've done a bit of before, and I must say that I found it incredibly boring. Most MA classes I go to I enjoy and find interesting, but there's something about wing chun (sim liu tao, chain punching), that just bores the heck out of me. No offense to anyone. It's kind of funny, actually, because wing chun is one of the two root arts of goju ryu (the others white crane) but I enjoyed the goju.

chen zhen
06-21-2003, 03:06 PM
WC has NOTHING to do with Goju-Ryu. do your homework, boy:cool:

sorry bout that, but I just don't think so.

rogue
06-21-2003, 06:44 PM
Rogue- I define speedy and reasonable as, in a year I should have some decent skills against an untrained fighter (assuming class 2 or 3 times a week+practicing on almost all days I don't have class for 20 minutes to an hour) and in 2 years have GOOD skills against an untrained fighter and after 3 or more years be pretty darn good. That sounds reasonable to me.

One thing I didn't like about the Goju I've seen is that it was hard (where was the soft?) and the techniques needed heavy conditioning of the tools, but there seems to be a lot of Goju styles out there. Judo can be excellent. I was schooled last year by a 60 year old judoka.

Choose wisely.:)

nothingness
06-22-2003, 09:40 AM
From what the teacher told me, okinawan goju ryu has its roots in wing chun and white crane. Not having been present at its founding, I can't say for certainty either way.

Rogue, my understanding is that goju begins with the hard for the first several years and then progresses to the soft. I'm not sure I take your point on the conditioning and techniques. Given that it is common for many chinese weijia and neijia to externally or internally condition its weapons, how does goju differ? For example, when I went to check out a hapkido class recently, the teacher told me they don't do any conditioning of their 'weapons' hardly at all- no hitting heavy bag, shin conditioning, etc... At the same time, he was teaching a shin block to a muy thai kick. I asked him about that since they weren't doing any shin conditioning for the block, and he said that yes it could screw up or break your shin but better that than the alternative. He also said that hitting and kicking the heavy bag causes joint problems so that's why they don't do it. Anyway, my point is that goju uses alot of the same strikes and kicks as hapkido and conditions them but since hapkido uses them without conditioning so could goju, i.e., a punch is a punch and a kick is a kick and can be delivered to soft areas as well as hard. One of the things that intrigued me about the goju class was the instructor's talking about using ki in strikes and relaxing and sinking down into them in a certain way, like a sigh, that involved little 'hardness.'

Can anyone comment on the differences between shorin ryu and goju ryu? Anyone heard much about Shorinji kempo?

rogue
06-22-2003, 09:55 AM
For example, when I went to check out a hapkido class recently, the teacher told me they don't do any conditioning of their 'weapons' hardly at all- no hitting heavy bag, shin conditioning, etc... At the same time, he was teaching a shin block to a muy thai kick. That's horrible, bad training.

votex
06-22-2003, 05:00 PM
What everyone is forgetting is that it is called Martial Arts for a reason. It's not just about fighting because anyone can fight. MA is about the forms and fighting. In the words of Grand Master Rhee (TKD) to my instructor (motified a bit), You fight good but you don't know the forms. I teach you the forms and you test next time and pass. Every style is based on the forms and the fighting is a plus.

shaolin kungfu
06-22-2003, 05:18 PM
What everyone is forgetting is that it is called Martial Arts for a reason. It's not just about fighting because anyone can fight. MA is about the forms and fighting. In the words of Grand Master Rhee (TKD) to my instructor (motified a bit), You fight good but you don't know the forms. I teach you the forms and you test next time and pass. Every style is based on the forms and the fighting is a plus.

Umm, no. There are plenty of martial arts that don't use forms to teach technique.

And no, not just anyone can fight well.

Yung Apprentice
06-22-2003, 06:57 PM
JKD,Muy Thai, BJJ are three good examples of styles that don't teach forms.



Anybody can fight, but not everyone can fight well.

rogue
06-22-2003, 07:01 PM
Every style is based on the forms and the fighting is a plus. Forms without the fighting applications is a waste of training time. Don't forget Hapkido and Jujitsu don't use forms either.

votex
06-23-2003, 09:27 PM
Sorry I posted when I was tried and not thinking straight :o . Let me put it this way then, since I had forgotten about systems with out forms at the time, the martial arts is just that a form of art. Each system has it's own unique style of fighting and you must learn the techniques and most if the time you learn the techniques on a bag or invisible opponent, yes? By forms I didn't mean the forms y'all are thinking of such as a set pattern of movements. But think of a form as practicing the techniques that you could possibly use in a fight, though in the ring that may or may not be the best idea depending on what kind "forms" you practice. Hapkido does have forms because I just meet a guy that practice’s Hapkido and he did a form in a tournament.

About fighting well just because you are in martial arts it doesn't mean you can beat a street fighter. Granted that you should be able and you will have a better chance than your average Joe though. And I never said everyone can fight well only that everyone can fight.

'MegaPoint
06-23-2003, 09:45 PM
Goju for the most part is more of a body conditioning art, IMO. Shorin is a fighting system. Miyagi wanted a sport (kumite) oriented style. His intent was like Funakoshi's. Bu DO!

Uechi Ryu and Shorin ryu are the best Okinawa has to offer. For real fighting at least. I have yet to meet someone that is not a Higaonna Goju cat that is really all that. They are sloppy and sparring fixated for the most part. Also their brand of Sanchin is an outmoded body strengthening exerxice and the valsalva maneuver that occurs causes many of their masters to die young (70 or younger). Most Okinawans live to be much older than that. Hohan Soken lived well into his 90s. Itosu-88, Chibana 85 and so on. So Goju often = strokes. Strokes suck!

Still a good goju shinshii is better than an outstanding Korean or Japanese sensei or teacher. Good luck and these are opinions based on actual observation.

nothingness
06-24-2003, 09:17 AM
Thanks for the responses. 'Megapoint and others- what do you think of bujinkan taijutsu?

chen zhen
06-24-2003, 09:19 AM
Is'nt taijutsu old-school pre-1880 jujutsu, or is it a Ninpo art?
Just want it clarified.

Kristoffer
06-26-2003, 04:45 AM
I'd knee Lee to hell

chen zhen
06-26-2003, 05:01 AM
This is kristoffer to the right while trying to knee lee.(rhymes..)
;)

Kristoffer
06-26-2003, 05:47 AM
Good rhyming skillz no?

chen zhen
06-26-2003, 05:49 AM
I wanna Bust dat Rhymes fella:o

Kristoffer
06-26-2003, 10:15 AM
Lemme here yo rhymes then

chen zhen
06-26-2003, 11:01 AM
Translation: I wanna bust Busta Rhymes. Dig it?

Surferdude
06-26-2003, 02:08 PM
werd dawg:confused:

Translation: Wutchu talkin bout jive monkey?:D :D

chen zhen
06-26-2003, 03:57 PM
That's not jive, clive. You've gotta pull yourself together, heather.:D ;)

Yung Apprentice
06-26-2003, 10:15 PM
if your askin me/ u need to be practicin see/
you couldn't carry a tune/ if it ensured your doom/
ryhmin the way u do, is blasphemy/

chen zhen
06-27-2003, 01:39 AM
How could a Karate-thread evolve into this..:D