View Full Version : Origin Of Hung Gar Forms/Sets?

04-13-2000, 03:39 AM
I am doing a research about the origins of all Hung Gar Sets/Forms. What are the origins,underlying philosophy, founder etc..Not just about the well known famous sets such as Gung Gee, fu hok, tid Sin but also the less well known or lost forms of Hung Gar. Anyone out there who can help?



Paul Skrypichayko
04-13-2000, 04:11 AM
Sup Ying seems to have been created by Wong Kay Ying or Wong Fei Hung, around the turn of the century, as an intermediate step between fu hok and tit sin. The ideas are the same as fu hok and tit sin, with more of the tiger, snake, and leopard, and of course, the five elements. Some people call the beginning the "dragon" section. Originally, fu hok only had about 3 tiger moves, it was in Sup Ying that the repetition of moves came into being.

Ng Ying seems to have been created by Chiu Kao, possibly in the late 1940's or early 1950's. I don't practice this form, so I cannot comment on it.

Wu Deep Jeung was around before Chiu Kao, so I doubt that it was created by his wife, unless it is another version of it.

Most of the weapon forms came in through Lam Sai Wing and his varied experience. A good example of this is Kwan Lun Gim, Lau Gar Pang, etc.

What are some of the other forms people practice?

In my lineage we practice the following extra forms:
Mui Fa Kuen
Lau Gar Kuen
Wu Deep Jeung (butterfly palm)
San Jan (3 battles an internal form from Wuzuquan/Ng Jo Kuen)
Siu Lum Gum Gong Yu Ga (gum gong yoga)
Siu Lum Yut Jie Sin (one finger zen)
Da Mo Yit Gung Ging (yi jin jing)

There is also another form that I haven't learned yet. It's called Chai Jong, and apparently has lots of jumping around.

04-13-2000, 07:50 AM
Thanks Paul

How about the other forms such as Mui Fa Kuen
Is it true that the Mui Fa was originally a northern siu lam form, if so who introduced this set into Hung Gar. And did you know that there is a shorter version of this set called the Siu Mui Fa Kuen. How about the other sets u practice. Do you know anything about their origins? Also What do u think the original wepons of Hung Gar was?

04-13-2000, 08:54 AM
Hi Blade,

I'm not a Hung Gar student, but I have some knowledge of it through my mentor and some of my peers who have Hung Gar training. Here's what I found in Fu Hok.

It's pretty much a training system on it's own. The openning sequence till the Tiger & Crane part is the warm up and conditioning. Many repetitons of the 3 extentions of the bridges technique, which is one of the signature techniques of Hung Gar. The highlights of the set are the powerful tiger and the fluid crane. Rounding up the practice is of course the fundamental techniques or what is sometimes refer to as the "seed" techniques of Shaolin - Lohan Kune. This is according to the book by Lam Sai Wing. If examin closely, this set is scientificly put together and adhere to the Hung Gar principle which view the form practice as conditioning as well as technical practice. Something like "get 2 birds with one stone."

Just feel like sharing my thoughts. I'll be glad to discuss this set in detail. Just let me know if you are interested.


Paul Skrypichayko
04-13-2000, 09:22 AM
Wow! I'm impressed, Mantis108 knows his hung gar and mantis as well.

Many people dont realize that the beginning of Fu Hok is a training exercise. Just like Gung Ji and Tit Sin, if practiced correctly, you can get great training benefits from the form alone. However, supplementary training is still recommended.

Mui Fa is a common theme in Chinese martial arts. I have seen many different hand and weapon forms called "mui fa". I don't know any history about the other forms, but I'll start researching it.

As far as original hung gar curriculum, I think it was very basic. Very little forms training at all, probably just focused on combat training and strength training. The main weapons were probably, kwun (staff), do (broadsword), and spear (cheung). Sure there were other weapons, but these were the most practical at the time.

The important thing is that the art evolves, things get better over time, rather than going downhill. Because of this, we had other hand and weapon forms added in.

bean curd
04-13-2000, 04:08 PM
in regards to wu dip cheung, sui ying introduced it into the chiu kau carriculum as an added form, it is a northern form that she had learnt.

wong fei hung was well known for his skills in the bakwa pole and also the wu dip dao, as well as many other weapons, many he learnt from his father and passed on down to his students


Kung Lek
04-14-2000, 12:07 AM
Regarding Moi fa/ mui fa etal.
The plum flower blossom set exists in many styles of chinese martial arts.
It derives its name from the plum flower blossom which has four petals.

Therefor, a plum flower blossom set will work the four directions of attack regardless of which system it is found in.

The sets of various systems that are named moi fa may not have any similar techniques or apps in them but the common thread is that the set deals in all four cardinal directions.

So, yes, moi fa is a name that applies to any set, weapon or empty hand that works these four directions.

In regards to the history of Hung Gar.

Tiger systems were disemminated from the Shaolin Temple at a very far point in history.
The first monks to become lay people took there skills home and also took students.
Because Shaolin monks were encouraged to specialize in advanced systems, the only thing they really shared were the fundaments of the Kung Fu training.
(Shaolin fundaments are no small undertaking when you wish to do them correctly.)

it is said in some of the most ancient etxts from henan temple that the Kung Fu of the temple could be performed in the area it takes an ox to lie down in.
So by knowing this, we know that there is little or NO Kung Fu that adheres to this ancient description and it is therefore safe to assume that the systems have been adapted , added to, and created anew over time.
hung Gar is no exception to this and was likely developed from Tiger sytems of the Shaolin temple and further developed by village masters, former monks, lay monks and so on.
The Hung Gar system of Wong Fei Hung is perhaps the best known of all the Hung Gar systems and subsystems that are propogated today.
But it stemmed from earlier systems of which some still exist.
Four Lower Tigers is a very good example of a system that was likely a forfather of the Hung Gar of today.
The system of Kung Fu that I practice predates Hung gar but it is similar in flavour overall.

And then of course there is the stuff that "just works" no matter what system it is held within. And those apps and techs will be found in a variety of southern and northern systems.

Well gotta go.

Kung Lek

04-14-2000, 05:26 AM
Hey thanx guys!

Great info. And yes mantis108 i am very intrested to discuss fu hok as well as other forms of hung gar in detail.

Well to start with I know that the mui fu kuen is not a original Hung Gar Form and i know that there are many styles of chines martial arts has a set called mui fa. But i was just wondering where the Mui fa Kuen of hung gar came from and who was the originator. I know that this set is practiced in Chan Hon Chung linegae and some other Hung gar masters lineage but not in Lam jo lineage. I know for a fact that the great Lam Sai Wing did not teach this form and it is not tought at Lam Jo's studio in Hong Kong. So where did this form came from? I have heard some people say that this form was created by Chan Hon Chung or at least it was modified by him. However i do not know how true this is. Anyone have an idea?

Moving over to the weapons of hung gar. I know that hung Gar never had an original Darn do (Broadsword form). The darn do practiced in diffrent lineages of hung gar is taken from other styles, such as the Pek Kwa darn do which was taken from the Monkey style. Also in the Lam sai wings lineage there are two butterfly sword sets, one long and one short. I was told that by a reliable source that the short set of this weapon was devised by Lam sai wing himself and this was one of his favorite weapons. What do u think? and how about the other weapon and hand forms?
As for the Four Lower Tigers, i dont know much about this system. I know that it is tought by Wing Lam, but i have never heard of anyone else teaching this style anwhere else, including Hong Kong and China. However i would very much like to find out about this system.

Thanx everybody,


[This message has been edited by blade (edited 04-14-2000).]

[This message has been edited by blade (edited 04-14-2000).]

Paul Skrypichayko
04-14-2000, 07:22 AM
Blade, I'm surprised that you know about Chan Hon Chung. Most people in North America only know about people in kung fu magazines, like Frank Yee, Backsam Kong, and Wing Lam.

My sifu is one of Chan Hon Chung's close students. I will ask about Mui Fa kuen and the other forms when I see him next week.

Pek Kua Do could have came from Chan Sau Chung, one of the experts in Tai Shing Pek Kua monkey style. He was a real leader in the HK martial arts scene, and a close friend and colleague of Chan Hon Chung.

The Mui Fa that I practice is very basic southern kung fu, and like everyone said, goes in 4 directions.

The pek kua do I practice is also typical southern kung fu. I don't know how to describe it other than by saying that it goes back and forth in a straight line about 4 times.

Even though I've only learned one type of butterfly sword, I know that our style has about 4 different types. I think the names are Ji Yuk Do (pork meat knives), Hang Yuet Do (crescent moon knives), Ji Mo Do (mother and son knives), and the other one is either called Wu Deep Do, or Pak Cham Do.

I know that the most basic spear form is called Lee Fa Cheung, Pear Flower Spear. The intermediate form is Yang Gar Cheung, Yang Family Spear; and the advanced form is called See Gar Cheung, See Family Spear. This type of spear work is very old, comming from the Song Dynasty. It is the same spear practiced by the hero See Mun Long in the kung fu novel, Outlaws of the Marsh (Shui Hu Juan).

I have heard that some groups have adapted the Ng Long Bat Kua Kwun into a form called Ng Long Bat Kua Cheung. This is simple to do because of the "pang" nature of the staff, making it just like a heavy duty spear. I have also heard of a Mui Fa Cheung, Plum flower spear.

The tiger fork, or Yu Ga Dai Pa, is found in so many different styles. When you think about it, there are only a handful of moves that you can do with a tiger fork. This is why the fork isnt practiced much, and is considered a basic weapon. Personally, I think it's one of the more impressive looking weapons when you are walking around with a giant fork, and peoples mouths drop open, and their eyes are staring at you, hehe.

I assume that Kwan Lun Gim comes from Kwan Lun San (kunlun mountain), but I don't know much about the history of this weapon.

04-14-2000, 11:42 AM
What i like about kwan lun gim is that it's a totally different style of sword play. It has a lot more piercing in it and not as many flowers in it like a northern style of swordplay. I think the style of swordplay used in kwan lun gim is called Jan Gim.

Peace /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Paul Skrypichayko
04-14-2000, 01:00 PM
I know that Wing Lam's people use the term "jan gim" and "hung gim", but I haven't heard these used before. Also, I don't have any experience with northern style sword, so I dont have much to compare it to other than Yang style Tai Chi sword.

One thing I have been told is that Kwanlun Gim is not used with a taichi gim, rather a military gim, and possibly a gim-do (military weapon that blends gim and do).

If you look on a map, you will find that Kwan Lun San (kunlun mountains) are found in San Geung (Xinjiang Province). The importance of this is because it is in the extreme west of China, which has much moslem and Persian influence. I'd be curious to see the swordwork of that area through the last 2000 years, especially before and after the Tang dynasty, which had great persian influence in that area.

One interesting fact is that before the Tang Dynasty, the chinese broadsword was completely different than today's sword. It was actually shorter and straighter, almost like a short Japanese katana. It is reasonable that the curved scimitars of the Arabs, Persians, and various Turks influenced Chinese weapons.

Just from playing around with a modern do and gim, people can see the ease in drawing the nice, curved do from the scabbard, compared to drawing a straight gim, which is **** difficult.

04-14-2000, 01:36 PM
What i know of Jan Gim swordplay, the sword used is shorter and much thicker than your northern gim. The northern gim was longer and they used scholar gims, while Jan gim swordplay (or southern) used a military gim. The northern gim was used as a defensive weapon while the southern gim was used as a strong offensive weapon. The northern gim used a primarily round tip while the southern gim had a sharp tip, more conducive to thrusting.
Personally i think that is an over-generalization because all weapons varied according to geograpical area, social class, martial technique, and the players preference. But that's what i was told.

I learned a form called Miao Dao that used a sword that was much like a japanese katana. It had your basic two handed strikes, but it varied because it had flowers that were used to block the legs, head, etc. It also had grabs and then you would retaliate with one handed slashes. Very different kind of swordplay compared to the way a katana is used.

Peace out /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Paul Skrypichayko
04-14-2000, 02:25 PM
Yes, I was told too that the military gim was shorter and thicker than the average gim of today. I'm not aware of the details on northern gim, but I've been told that the popular gim of today is the tai chi gim. That is the reason why it is such a fragile weapon.

Even though the military gim was more sturdy, swordplay was still dainty and elegant. Always evading, and almost never contacting the other weapon.

Out of curiousity, does anyone here know how to use the long tassels properly? Anyone know about sticking magnetically to your opponent's sword? I can't do either, but I'm still curious.

04-15-2000, 02:16 AM
Woo,lots of food for thoughts.

First off, I'll post more about Fu Hok next time because is an very interesting set.

About Mui Fa, I alway thought it's 5 pedals instead of four or is it that it has the 5 little needles which stick out from the middle? What do you called that? Anyway, Mui Fa is a symbol as well as nature's lesson. On the symbolic side it blossom in the coldest time. Chinese people endure many hardships and we tend to "blossom" under them. On the technical side, it's the cluster of blossoms (cluster of techniques/moves). In the case of Mui Fa, it's 5 moves (also reminiscent of 5 elements),which forms one technique.

Unlike the west, the rythm of Kung Fu varys all the time. It can be 1-2, 1-2-3, 1-2-3-4, and 1-2-3-4-5. Also there is the half beats "and-1" or "1-and-2". Bruce Lee "saw" this and he created his own Kung Fu.

Regardless of style, a human body has four simple action with regard to movements. Advance, retreat, to the left, to the right, or stay still. This also correspond to the four cardinal directions and the Five elements. In southern styles this is more important because, southerners tend to fight toghter in large numbers and from all sides. It is prudent to defend all sides. Southern styles are also aware of the possible use of their skills in military situations (to over thrown the Ching Empiror). Again one would have to be aware of the opponents coming from all sides while in the battle fields.

So one can see the Mui Fa symbolic significance. It's national pride at work, too.

Kung Fu is art becauce it helps us to express our inner most feelings. There are lots of wisdoms in designing/engineering a form. It's both cultural and practical. It's more than meets the eyes. I personally think that's what makes Kung Fu a life time study.

Just a few thoughts.

By the way, thanks for the compliment, Paul.
You have quite extensive knowledge of Kung Fu, too.

Peace everyone


[This message has been edited by mantis108 (edited 04-15-2000).]

Paul Skrypichayko
04-15-2000, 02:23 AM
Thank you mantis108, I'm really just a novice.

I was going to say earlier that mui fa had four petals, hence the four directions, but I have heard some people say there are 4 petals, and some people say 5 petals. I'm still not sure on which is right, maybe there are two varieties?

How are most forms constructed and performed? In my experience, I've seen linear forms, cross pattern (sup ji or mui fa), and a few that are odd shaped like the capital letter "I" (gung ji). I've heard that Tit Sin is more like 2 half circles. Can anybody share anything about form shapes?

04-15-2000, 03:29 AM
Hi Blade and others,

Interesting info goin' around. "salute"

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by blade:
Thanks Paul

How about the other forms such as Mui Fa Kuen
Is it true that the Mui Fa was originally a northern siu lam form, if so who introduced this set into Hung Gar.

Subs= Blade, you might want to ask Sifu John Leongs people. Since he has a book out on the form.
What i have heard about it's origins is very similar to "Sam Yin Kuen" ( A 3 animal fist set that is relatively new to HG, ie < 100yrs old) Sifu Bucksam Kong does this set. Anyway the thought is that some time ago, HG teachers thought that the system needed more sets and so added these other sets.

I was about to say the same thing as Kung Lek. He was dead on when he wrote about the plum blossom theory. It is a dominant idea in CMA. It is everywhere you look and not just in the directions of the sets. Of course you problably know all this stuff but it is also in weapon movements and in the very attks themselves. For example in our school, when we practice spear we adhere these basic movements:

Spear traits and movements.

Sin - Thread - this is the character of the spear. To move as straight as a thread.

Chat - Wrapping

Ngat - Pressing - in a half-circle.

Boot - Push to outside - This is the low block in the basic move.

Tun & Bung - Lifting - Tun is longer and Bung is snappy.

NOTE * If a weapon set does not have a lot of the moves which emphasizes the character of the weapon, it misses the point. (ie. Straight sword sets shouldnÂ’t have more slashing then jabbing. Focus is on the pt. It can have some but the predominant movement should be the strength of the weapon.)

As far as Moi fa. When we press, a variation of the movement can be that we do it in such a way that the bounce and focus on the tip resembles a Plum blossom. And so even if someone blocks it, the person on the receiving end may get a few more attks. This also depends on the quality of the spear as it should be alittle stiffer like a long pole, for this technique.

Also What do u think the original wepons of Hung Gar was? [/quote]

subs= I was always taught that HG originally had Long pole, butterfly swords and tiger fork only. Broadsword, st. sword (gim) and Spear for ex, are Northern adaptations.

Sifu Lam had learned the HG Broadsword set as well. But he noticed that it was lacking in comparison to the Sil Lum set. The HG set had probably been adapted from the Shaolin set anyway. Same thing for the other HG weapons, all added later in the lineage as time went on.

Oh oh, my baby is crying. I've enjoyed reading this thread w/ you guys.

take care all,
Subs aka "O"

PS, if i get a chance mabe my brother and I could post about the Ha Say Fu.

04-15-2000, 04:23 AM
Hey guys!!

Nice to see so many replies. Keep it up. Paul, is your sifu a student of Chan Hon Chung? I trained with the top student of Chan hon chung in Hong Kong for a short while. Also know some of other students of Chan Hon Chung.
Anyway, to my knowledge, the Gim, straight sword is said to be invented by Chih Yu. This sowrd is refferd as the mother of all short weapons and has 3 cutting edges. This sword was popular and associated with some of the great leaders and warriors of chinese history. And if i am not wrong there are traditionally 16 different ways of using the gim. The movments of gim are generaly softer than the other swords such as broadsword. Gim requires agility, flexibilty and balance.

The long tassel is used for confusing and distracting the opponnent. The long tassel is used in mant ways such as hitting the opponent using the tassel, wrapping it round opponents wrist etc..
About sticking magnetically to your opponent's sword? Well i am not too sure what exactlly u are asking here. The main principle behind sticking is feeling. Feeling the opponnents force and his energy, his movments as well as your own is the key to sticking to an opponent.
About the shapes of the forms and other questions i will keep you posted as I have to go now.

Thanks everybody


Paul Skrypichayko
04-15-2000, 08:49 AM
Hi Blade, I'd love to talk to you in email, would you please contact me?

Yes, my sifu had the bulk of his training from Chan Hon Chung during the 1950's and 1960's.

Who are considered to be the top students of Chan Hon Chung?

I've heard that the tassel is also used for attacking the eyes. I've heard that the magnetic sticking is the super advanced stage of the art, whereas the average "sticking" is more well known. The magnetism is created by sending your chi to the end of the sword, and polarizing the metal. I'd really love to meet a master swordsman, to see what the real gim is all about.

04-16-2000, 04:41 AM

Hey paul, send u an email hope u got it.

Anyway, u r right about the tassel, it can also be used for attacking the eyes. The tassel can be very effective if used right, however i dont think there are many people out there who knows how to use it or dont pay much attention to it. Going back to magnetic sticking, to many people what u r talking about is very far fetched and magical. I think in a way what u r talking about can be achived (maybe not exactlly the way u have put it) but requires many years of hard work and dedication. Again i dont think there are many people(if any)now who can do this. Saying that i have heard of people in old times who had similar skills.

Another intresting point about gim, if anyone didnt know is that, it is said that the gim had a strong influence over the creation of the famous japanese Katana. The gim is also not one of the original weapons of hung gar. I am sure u all knew that.

What u all think about the lau gar sets in hung gar. its origins and philosopy behind it etc..How about Jin Sao Kuen(arrow hand)? And has anyone started learning the tid sin? What u think?

Have nice day

Paul Skrypichayko
04-16-2000, 09:03 AM
Jin Sao Kuen.....wasn't it created by Chiu Kao as a beginners set?

I don't know for sure, because I never practiced it.

Lau gar seems more technical, with pheonix eye (or crane head) fists.

bean curd
04-16-2000, 02:49 PM
jin sau kuen is regarded as a learners set, and is designed for this, and is not regarded as a form like lau gar kuen.

some lineages do use the set as an intermediate, basically a refresher, however generally used as one of the first sets learnt, before going onto forms.

works on the basics, foundation, weight transition, waist, seven star usage, hand/body co-oridination, etc


05-03-2000, 02:18 AM
You guys are awesome. This has been a great thread. Here are my additions from my meager knowledge base.

Sup Ying: Does anyone know if Sup Ying was created before Fu Hok? I agree that Sup Ying is a bridge to Tit Sin but it makes one wonders why Lam Sai Wing chose to document Gung Gi Fook Fu, Fu Hok and Tit Sin only. I always considered these the main sets.

Wu Dip Jueng: The story I heard was it was from Chiu Kao's wife. Paul, does your lineage practice this set? Chiu's line is the only one I know that does it.

What is Lau Gar Pang?

Mui Fa Kuen: This set is thaught by Chiu's line. John Leong wrote a book and he is from Lum Jo's branch. I've never seen the set but am told it's a beginner level. Just confirming what my Si-Hing subatai wrote. When we visit Chiu Wai later this month, we'll ask him.

Also, Mui Fa is a 5 petal leaf. The leaf on
the Hong Kong flag. As Paul stated there are sets called Sup Ji (Character 10) for cross patterns and Gung Ji (character "I") for I patterns. Mui Fa Kuens are 5 directions. (left, right, straight and the 2 corners between them) As mantis stated, it is also full of symbolism.

Kwun Lun: Subatai said what we were taught about it. The persian influence is interesting. The set definitely uses more slashes then most Gim sets.

Jin Sao Kuen: Is this arrow hand? if so, this is not a Chiu Kao invention (though he may be the only one to teach it). Arrowhand is a Wing Lam name. The original set is called heart penetrating palm. Wing Lam took the beginning and uses it to teach basics. The complete set is like a combination of gung ji and the end of sup ying. Someone outside of Hung Gar line said it's an old set of Southern lineage. Sifu didn't think it was that important.

Fu Hok: Great info Mantis. Not many know that stuff. That's a whole thread on it's own.

Butterfly knives: This and the pole are considered the classical hung gar weapons. (along with the tiger fork but that was more military) Paul, you have good info because very few people call the set by it's correct name, Ji Mo Dao. This is the set most often seen in Canton Hung Gar. I know that Chiu line has a set that they call Wu Dip Dao which is different then Ji Mo Do but I don't know what it looks like. Paul, are all the other BF sets you listed Hung Gar or are they borrowed from other systems? Ha Say Fu has a different set as well.

05-03-2000, 05:59 AM
Hi Everyone,

I haven't forgotten about this thread. There are something about Fu Hok that I'm working on. I hope to work on it a little bit more before I post my findings. So please be patient.

I also wonder why Lam Sai Wing choose those 3 sets. I speculate that at the time photography isn't widely available or rather expansive to use or he doesn't like being photographed (old Chinese superstition). For documention he will have to post for a loooong time just to do one book. If I were Lam, I would have chosen my forms carefully. Forms that would represent the style or his Kung Fu really well. My impression is that Kung Ji represents the fundamentals of Hung Gar (the solid conditioning)"Gong", Fu Hok articulates the hard/soft concept and serve as (the fluid transition) from external to internal "Yau", and TiK Sin finally refine and hone the mind and the body into hard as iron/soft as wire which is the internal stage "Gong Yau sheung chai". The sound and breathing techniques, to me,is the most remarkable. This is of course my impression only. I think whoever created these sets really put a lot of thought into them. Thoroughly study one set is quite an undertaking. Learning all three in that sequence seems to have some kind of a design to it. Just a hunch. Anyway, hope you enjoy this so far...

Peace to all


Contraria Sunt Complementa

Paul Skrypichayko
05-03-2000, 11:24 AM
When you think about hung gar, the real "essence" of the style is in the three forms, Gung Ji, Fu Hok, and Tit Sin. When Lam Sai Wing published his books, they were the first books on kung fu that were intended for the public. This was pretty revolutionary in the old days.

Wu Deep Jeung is also practiced by a few other lineages under Lam Sai Wing. By talking to a few different practicioners, I have discovered that Chan Hon Chung's and Chiu Wei's version are very similar, but Chiu Chi Ling's version is very different from both. The Chiu Wei and Chan Hon Chung versions do not seem very "northern". I suspect it is either good marketing, or misinformation by some people out there.

Lau Gar Pang is the Lau Gar pole form. Pang/bang is the proper term for that type of weapon. Keep in mind it is tapered, not like the double headed staff, kwun/gun.

I have no idea where Mui Fa Kuen came from. I do know that it was originally a "ladies style", and that they practiced with the "siu bo" (mouse step), instead of false leg stance and horse stance. The reason why women practice different is to be more "lady-like" and to protect the vaginal membrane. Almost every mui fa form I have seen or heard about has been 4 directional. Until somebody corrects me, it seems safe to believe that an actual plum blossom can be either 4 or 5 petalled.

The tiger fork is not a military weapon, it is more for hunters, and the "stupid, country bumpkin type". I still like the weapon, even though it is pretty basic.

The butterfly knives are "hung gar", but saying that does not mean much. Hung gar used to be called just plain old southern shaolin. Hung gar has evolved so much over the years. Butterfly knives can only be moved and used a certain number of ways. The forms I have seen are all pretty similar, just different routines, but the general idea remains the same.

05-04-2000, 02:58 AM
Dear all Hung Gar practioners

I am not a Hung Gar practioners myself, but a lot of my friends studies it, just a few interesting history that they told me. Wong Fei Hung actually learnt Tit Sin Keun with Lum Fook San,(Student of Lau Crun "Tit Kui Sarm"). Any comments on this issue?
As they call the style that practice by Tit Kui Sarm and Lum Fook San the "LO Hung Keun" means the Old Hung Keun. Just wonder are there any students from that lineage?




Paul Skrypichayko
05-04-2000, 04:44 AM
Leung Kwan (Tit Kiu Sam) taught Lam Fook Shing, and Lam Fook Shing did some teaching to Wong Fei Hung.

Some people from the Tit Kiu Sam lineage are the students and grandstudents of Lai Ng Sam.

One of them, Evert van der Meulen, has a website from the Netherlands: http://home.worldonline.nl/~hgkweito/

05-05-2000, 03:56 AM
Hello Everyone!!

I am sure as you all know the original Hand forms of Hung Gar are; Gung Gee, Fu Hok and Tid Sin.

Gung Gee is the first form of Hung Gar which was originated from the famous Siu Lum Temple. This is one of the most important forms of hung gar and traditionaly its the first form tought. Gung Gee is the core set which teaches the basics and more advanced concepts of Hung Gar such as 5 animals and 5 elements, correct breathing etc..as wel as many other important things.

There are many different stories about how fu hok was originated. However its a well known fact that this form was modified by Wong Fei Hong. It is said that the fu hok practiced know is diffrent from the original fu hok.

Sup Ying Was not created before Fu Hok. This form was created/developed after Fu Hok for various reasons.

I am sure you all know how and who by the famous tid sin kuen was created.

As for why Lam Sai Wing chose to publish books on Gung Gee, Fu Hok and tid sin but not the other forms is that is Beacuse these forms are the original and core forms of hung gar and also the most famous forms in the style.

I have seen many photos of Lam Sai Wing at Lam Jo Sigungs studio in Hng Kong, so i dont think he had anything against being photographed.
Anyway got to go now. Keep posting what u think or what u want to know etc..

Take care!!

05-05-2000, 11:52 AM

Thanks for the web link, it is a very informative site. Excellent!




bean curd
05-05-2000, 09:13 PM
this thread keeps getting better all the time.

must say find it interesting that wu dip chueng may not be from northern style, as been stated????

since both chiu kau and his wife siu ying have stated that it is a northern form, i have always believed this.

in regards to yu gar dai pa, my knowledge has been that it is a senior and heavy weapon.

the intrices of the usage and applictions alone and not including the weight of the weapon, make it a challanging weapon not only physically but also mentally.

i find the wracking, digging, twisting, turning, catching, green dragon shows its tail, poking, pressing etc with the ma (stances) required to be extremly demanding yet a sense of achievment when having completed the form

if i can ask how do others find the yu gar dai pa (yu family great fork) and for that matter what about the kwan dao, i know this weapon has some different names but it can be confussing for those outside hung gar to realise that it is the same weapon, so i thought i would keep it to the generic term,(for a better word)


05-05-2000, 10:38 PM
Hi Everyone,

Paul, the site you give is really infomative, thanks and keep up the good work.

A word on Kwan Do. It belongs to the same weapon catagroy know as Dai Do (large and long Sadre). They were heavy battle field weapons used on horseback. Now, it's more on foot. It is believe that it can be used to train strength. Kwan Do takes it name after General Kwan who was/is regarded as the God of martial affairs. He was a Gerenal in the three Kingdom period well known for his courage and loyalty to his sworn brethern. The weapon he used was call "ching Lung Yin Yuei Do" (Green Dragon Plays the Moon). It has a specific shape and weight (quite heavy since he had great strength). There is other version of the Dai do which take on other celebertie's name "Choi Yeung" for example. Regardless of style, in a Kwan Do set, movements of brushing the bear, riding the horse and sharpening the blade will be played to honor General Kwan. Dai Do set will not have these signature movements.

Peace to all


Contraria Sunt Complementa

Kung Lek
05-07-2000, 09:37 AM

I practice with Kwan Do. It is a definitely strong set and requires stamina.

I'm not sure if the weapon derives its' name from Gwan Dee/Gwan Gong the "patron saint" of Martial Arts and Restaurants. (no kidding on the restaurant thing, check the ancestral house(toi sun)next time your out having Kung Pao).

Kwan also means "Pole" or "Staff" therefore, I have known it to mean "Pole Knife" It is afterall a Big Knife blade attached to a Pole.


Kung Lek

Paul Skrypichayko
05-07-2000, 10:52 AM
Kung Lek, I think you are mistaken on the word "kwan". In this sense it is the surname "kwan". The term for staff is totally different "kwun".

You are right about General Kwan being a patron saint for more than just martial matters, he is also important for business, banking, and about 50 other things, hehe.

I am a little confused about the name for General Kwan's weapon. Some people say it is "green dragon sweeping moon", "green dragon playing with the moon", and "green dragon swallowing the moon". Can anybody back up any of the phrases?

About the tiger fork, there is a common saying in southern martial arts "jing jai do, bun jai cha". The smart boy uses the broadsword, the dumb boy uses the fork.

bean curd
05-07-2000, 03:46 PM
i also know the kwan dao of general kwan wun cheung as, " ching lung ngan yuet dao".

the name variation can happen depending on your interpretation of the characters.

it is also known as," halbert with a green dragon and a crescent moon"

to compare the usage of the dao and the yu gar dai pa, with a quote, does not reveal the intricises of both these marvelous weapons. i have never heard poems or boxing transmissions bring the strength of a weapon into question.

for myself i have never heard of this quote,
all the poems that i have ever heard and know only promote the usage and the postures of the individual weapon.

from history, it is the ability of the user to defeat the foot soldier who would use the single sword and the rattan shield with the dai pa that made it so famous, and from those that i know who play this weapon, take pride in their ability to use it.

it was also carried by great soldiers who would show there strength and courage by subduing tigers with it

from a hung gar perspective, the dao is the first metal weapon used with the monkey staff, to introduce the player to the understanding of the usages, for and against the different weapons.

because of the requirments to learn the dia pa and how foundation is important to its usage, the dai pa is held for much later, when the kwan dao is also introduced.

regarding the picure, those with kwan wun cheung are kwan ping (his son) and the dark faced one is his loyal general, chow chong


05-07-2000, 11:09 PM
Interest posts on the Dai Pa

To be fair, the Chinese languge is ambiguous most of the time. There are lot of plateaus to a simple phrase. One might said that Chinese play charads all time. Being a Chinese, It's sometimes pretty tough for me to understand some Chinese saying, too.

Here's my take on that quote. I think it refers to the charaterstics of the weapon. In comparison, the Do is light and agile. whereas, the Pa is heavy and slow. This is relative, of course. Fancy or smart moves make the Do more "alive". It is smart to be dumb sometimes (mind you, the Chinese like paradox). The simple and plain moves, certain contrast the fancy and smart, is most suitable for the heavy Dai Pa. The word "Bun" can be interpreted as Heavy/Slow as in "Bun Chong (being heavy and slow)"

These type of charads are meant to be mind training, too. After all, One's preception on things and events would have an impact on his or her Kung Fu.

Peace to all


Contraria Sunt Complementa

Paul Skrypichayko
05-09-2000, 11:14 AM
Beancurd, you said "regarding the picture". Which picture are you talking about?

With the tiger fork, just look at the name "tiger fork". This implies that it is for hunting tigers. The main weapons in the army were broadswords and spears. Dealing with cavalry and anti-cavalry, you start having horse cutters and kwan do's.

When it comes to fighting someone armed with a shield and broadsword, the common weapon is any type of dai do, because you can cut through the shield.

I'm not saying that only stupid people practice the tiger fork. I like the weapon, and practice it myself. But there are only so many ways to use a weapon like that. Broadsword has more techniques, is more practical, and it is better to train for today's environment.

Broadsword and staff are taught first because of their importance, practicality, and they are the first step to learning other weapons. Tiger fork was taught to me as a beginner's weapon. Flexible weapons and straightsword are the more advanced weapons.

11-29-2000, 05:31 AM
the version of Moi Fa that I learned is actually called 'Moi Fa Sup Fu Kuen" or plum flower cross tiger (ten tigers-cool, huh?)fist. It goes in a cross pattern (sup ji) and has short foward and back rat steps, trapping, re-trapping, power generation similar to the metal fist in Hsing-Yi,(in our form the seurng fu-jow slam down and winds foward with full body integration)there is also a body torque silk reeling energy corkscrewing uppercut(combined with a back of neck hook) and the pulsing shock power in the double butterfly palms. This form is taught in layers, one version being the most basic, followed by a more advanced version, followed by yet another version. These versions are actually not different forms, but the same form utilizing different qualities of energy and body technique previously mentioned.The form is taught on a higher level when the student is ready. Most people don't get into this form at that level because they look at it as a beginner's form and forget about it when they learn the longer forms. There are no beginner forms in Hung Ga, but there are shorter ones! This form has no relation to the northern shaolin Moi Fa Kuen.Everyone and their uncle has a moi fa form-Hung Ga, Choy Li Fut, Mantis, etc. Moi fa has all the symbology which has already been mentioned, and another, which is symbolic of the overthrow of the Ching-the plum blossom is the first sign of life out of the dead of winter. Wing Chun uses this symbol as well. It means hope for the future and the rebirth of the Ming Dynasty.