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Octavius
09-19-2000, 07:00 PM
Hello all, has anyone heard of a style called Hung Mun? I knw it was a triad organization way back, but I heard that it also has some relationship to Hung Ga. Does anyone teach/learn it? Or does anyone know if it included in their own curriculum? How is it different/similar to Hung Ga? Thanks.

Long Live the Fighters!
-Paul Mua'Dib Atreides

hasayfu
09-24-2000, 10:00 PM
You are correct that Hung Mun (Red Door) was a triad organization. Actually it was an umbrella name for triad associations who were after political reform to overthrow the Qing government.

Hung in Hung Gar is a different word and is the name of the first Ming Emperor. There is association with Hung Mun because Hung Mun wanted to restore the Ming.

As far as martial arts go, Hung Mun was not organized nationally but locally so each local chapter had their own enforcers who taught the art they were most familiar with. In some cases that was Hung Gar and usually with different flavors. It was primarily southern shaolin based arts since the triad folklore uses the five ancestors (the five that left Shaolin when the Qing burned it down) as a rally point.

Paul Skrypichayko
10-13-2000, 04:45 AM
hasayfu, I'll have to disagree with you on some points here.

Hung in hung gar is the surname of Hung Hei Guen, it doesn't mean "red", it doesn't mean "hero", and it doesnt mean "to stand tall with integrity".

Most triad organizations were focused on politics or crime, martial arts were only a secondary concern for them. Also, are you possibly mixing up "red door" with the Hung Mun known as the Chinese Freemasons? They are an ex-triad organization which is mostly a social club now.

Does anybody know where Hung Mun/Chinese Freemasons get their name? Is it possibly from Hung Sau Choon in the 1840's

doug maverick
10-14-2000, 07:55 PM
paul actually hung hei gwoon's sername was jyu and he changed it to honor the first ming emperor and it does mean hero and to stand tall with integrity
remeber hung gar is a southern style so the language is cantonese.

Paul Skrypichayko
10-14-2000, 11:26 PM
Sorry, I don't agree with you there.

You should study the Chinese language more if you want to try and correct others. Cantonese is a different spoken language, but the Chinese written language, Zhongwen has been standardized for at least the last 2000 years.

If you do some research, you will find out what the character means. Check with a reliable source too. Most of the stuff in magazines and websites is pretty questionable.

hasayfu
10-15-2000, 08:22 PM
Hi Paul,

Good you brought up the chinese. The Character used in Hung Gar is the last name of the first Ming emperor. It literally means immense or flood which the bottom link will show you (if it works). Paul is correct that this is not a Canotnese/Manderin issue. The written language is the same. It has also come to mean integrity because of the assoication with the Mings. This might only be true in the south but I'm not sure.
As black tiger said, Hung Hei Gwoon, changed his name from Jyu to Hung to honor the ming. (and possibly hide his true identity)

As far as triads having martial arts as a secondary focus, this is true. On the otherhand, the way they enforced and supported their criminal activities was to have a army of trained fighters. I'll add here that I do not support the triad activities nor do I know if what they taught were complete systems or just "dirty tricks". It's common knowledge, however, in Hong Kong that many of the reknowned fighters in the 50s-80s were triad red poles.

Finally, the Red Door (Hung Mun)was a freemason society as you say. In fact, all triads started that way. Their battle cry was to defeat the Qing and restore the Ming. The Hung Mun used the word red as a cover because it sounded like the Hung of the Ming emperor but wouldn't directly implicate them. For more information, pick up any english book on the chinese mafia. This is a recurring theme. It's also, not this simple but it's more then I can cover in this post.

Actually, one last thing to add. All this stuff concerning Hung Hei Gwoon and Hung Mun is intentially vague and double talk. A lot has to do with the Qing trying to kill them and a lot has to do with the Chinese need to tie a rich history to a cause.

Here's a link to a chinese language site:
http://cgibin.erols.com/mandarintools/cgi-bin/charlook.pl?searchmode=standard&printtype=gif&chartype=simp&ordering=frequency&enctype=gb&whatchar=%ba%e9&searchchar=Search+by+Charact er

Paul Skrypichayko
10-16-2000, 12:14 AM
The surname of Hung Hei Guen could be the same name as that emperor, but I do not believe that he changed his name to honor that monarch. Of course, if someone can provide some good information regarding this, I might change my opinion. Is there any proof that Hung Hei Guen's original name was Jiu?

It is true that some very skilled martial artists are criminals, but most of the criminals knew virtually nothing when it came to martial arts. Just look at organized crime all over the world. All it takes is a bunch of big tough guys with weapons to intimidate someone, not decades of kung fu training.

I don't know where people get the idea of "red door" from. If you go down to your local branch of the Chinese Freemasons, you'll see the character "hung" (flood) on their sign, not "hung" (red).

hasayfu
10-16-2000, 01:05 AM
Well you got me there Paul. Can you prove that Hung Hei Gwoon even existed? From most writings I've read, Hung Hei Gwoon comes from oral histories. No proof since he was a bit of a rebel. Kind of wierd when you think that he was around the time of Luk Ah Choy who does have documented proof of existence.

Of course, Hung being a tea merchant named Jyu and meeting with Gee Sim, learning tiger style and matching it with his wifes crane style is the oral history of Hung Gar. Some variations exist but that's all I'm working with. To be honest, I have not questioned this much. What is your source and how does your history read?

About Hung Mun, you could be right. I don't know of a Hung Mun branch in San Francisco but there are many other Societies/Tongs/Organziations that do exist and carry the mason sign. Have you asked them about their history? Seeing as they are a social group, they should be willing to tell you. Might be nice for you to share to list. Again, I'm getting my info from english crime books (not martial arts mags) I really only have a cursory interest in them so haven't dived further.

And as far as triads members not having good martial arts skill, well I've never fought one and don't plan to. Maybe you can tell your local 14K red pole that :-) (just kidding)

doug maverick
11-29-2000, 08:32 PM
some new news for you guys did you know that wong fei hung was apart of the hung mun and some of there kung fu is envoloped in hung gar i found this out by reading an interview on frank yee