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ngokfei
01-13-2001, 01:48 AM
what the hell is going onwith allthese monks. Some married, others don't know squat about budhism.

Any body out there have any means of telling if these indiviudals are teach real MA. All i've seen is wushu basics, traditional & wushuy forms. No drills, or sparring in class. So how canyou learn this.

Also, how is it that these "Monks??" can so easily enter the US with a resident visa when so many hard working individuals from around the world are waiting and waiting. At least they will pay taxes and improve this country. Instead these fakes claim exempt status since they "Claim" to be religous or start churches.

I think I'll start my own church so I don't have to pay taxes either.

:p :p

HuangKaiVun
01-13-2001, 02:09 AM
Who cares what they do?

Buddhism is not practiced from a 3rd person perspective!

yamato_damashii
01-13-2001, 03:20 PM
I don't know how good their kung fu is, but I do know that they train a LOT--since Buddhism is illegal under the communist regime in China, the "modern Shaolin temple" doesn't do any religious activity.
They just train.

Jason C. Diederich

<A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine/" TARGET="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/shaolinninjamarine/</A>

Brad
01-13-2001, 04:13 PM
I think religion is only illegal if you recognize a leader not recognized by the government. Or something like that. Kind of like how China has Catholic churches, the Pope just has no authority there. It's perfectly legal to be Buddhist, Christian, Muslim, etc.

Brad
01-13-2001, 04:39 PM
Just thought I'd add a little more on the subject. To be a monk I think the only real requirements are to have a college degree in Chan Buddhism and to know wushu(for Shaolin monks). It doesn't mean you have to believe in Buddhism or anything, hence the corruption. I think it all boils down to how the abbot runs the place. Most wushu guys in China practice both traditional & modern styles. Most good wushu schools SHOULD teach forms, drills(line drills, fighting sets, etc...), freesparing, grappling, qigong,...the same basic things that should be taught in traditional schools.

HuangKaiVun
01-14-2001, 04:52 AM
To me, those monks are pretty sharp.

To preserve their once crumbling temple, they've allowed the Chinese government to use their temple as a tourist trap.

Yet in doing so, they attract thousands (if not millions) of people from all over the world to train.

Despite the anti-Buddhist goals of the government, Shaolin continues to espouse the tenets of Buddhism (openmindness, peace, etc. . .)

Clearly, the monks were well aware of the ramifications of Chinese government support. Yet they thrive, preaching the most fundamental messages of Buddhism under governmental approval!

It is the Buddhist way to adjust to others and work hand in hand with them to achieve your goals.

HuangKaiVun
01-14-2001, 04:53 AM
If you studied Chan Buddhism, practice Chan kung fu (Shaolin wushu), and do Buddhist practice (e.g. kung fu, meditation), you ARE doing Shaolin kung fu 100%.

NorthernMantis
01-16-2001, 02:48 AM
before I start I want everyone to know that the purpose of my contribution is to share information so that the truth might be revealed.Wether my knowledge about this is authentic I do not know but I hope that this brings us on more step closer to the truth putting one more piece to the mysterious puzzle known as shaolin.So in the spirit of kung fu my brothers I ask you to open up your minds,keep your opinions unbiased until read thoroughly and lets begin.

From what I understand most of the shaolin monks left shaolin temple and that communists also forced the shaolin monks out of the monastic life into secular life.Some were faced with the choice of marrying or dying.That could be the reason why some are married.Note I said SOME not ALL since it was a long time ago.I read somewhere, even though I'm not sure if the source is authentic, that some of the ex-monks who had children did not return and spread out teaching traditional kung fu in secret to their children and other's in the villages.I also read that the remaining shaolin monks had practiced in secrecy also due to the communists making martial arts practice illegal.

Mind you that by during the time that jet li popped up at shaolin.He said ,and I have read this from him on his own web site,that there were 2 or 3 left at shaolin when he arrived.Something about that the only one who knew kung fu had parkinsons and was unable to teach... but I read an article stating that during the time when jet li came to shaolin that the monks who knew kung fu had temporarily left shaolin.To do what I do not know.I also read on an article in kungfu/qigong,I think, that one of the monks participated on jet's shaolin temple movie.

One of the few shaolin monks who stayed,who would later become shaolins 29th abbot,managed to convince many of the monks that left to return.He was by the name of Shi Xingzhen.So I would credit him the person who kept shaolin from dissapearing.I felt that he was important enough to know about.Also, he was the previous abbot before Shi Yongxin.

One of the things that shaolin is being criticized for,which is mostly true, is the modern wu shu people dressing up as shaolin and fooling the westerners.It is true to some extent.We all know about the surrounding wu shu schools that teach shaolin with hundreds of students although in reality there are a few fully ordained monks.These real monks practice both traditional and modern wu shu forms.You must remember that there exists an exchange between the monks and disciples of the authentic shaolin temple and the layman disciples of the rest of china.

Yes there are lots of modern wushu practicioners who dress up as shaolin monks,that might be the reason why some monks don't know anything about their religion.The wu shu centers around shaolin dress up like monks.They do exchange of martial content between them and shaolin though.


Well that's all I know.I hope that this might have been of good use.
:)

"Always be ready"

NorthernMantis
01-16-2001, 03:02 AM
you know after actually reading everyone elses posts I realized I have no idea what I'm talking about.Silly me. :rolleyes:

"Always be ready"

Shaolin Temple
02-08-2001, 06:54 AM
Yamato, where in the world did you hear that Buddhism is illegal under Communist rule?

Buddhism in itself is not a religion. It is a form of education. Over the centuries, due to the influence of taoism, when Buddhism was introduced, many followers have a habit of offerrings to the Heavens that they find hard to abandon...so they adopt it.

These monks that some of you mention that gets married are not true monks. In Shaolin, people may enter as outside disciples or Reverends. the reverends cannot marry, eat meat, etc. They will have 6 eyes burned to their scalp. One for every text of rules.

The ones without the eyes on the scalp are probationary monks who are there to learn the art of Martial Arts and nothing else. they are not interested in the cultivation aspects of it. If they are, there is available another group in the Temple that they may enrol into for further education.

for some of you who say kung fu this and kung fu that...here's a small history to begin with.

The north is famous for its kicks. The south for its punches.

Many true Southern Shaolin techniques emphasize the importance of stance and it is from stance and the ability to be solid that the power of the punches are recognised.

A small history first...

What does 'Kung Fu' mean?
Like many other terms used in connection with the
Martial Arts today, the term 'Kung fu' is often mis-applied. Translated literally, kung fu means 'excellence through hard work' or 'skilled achievement'. Therefore one could be said to display 'kung fu' at cooking or at computer programming.

There is nothing inherently martial about the term, but in the 1950s, the Hong Kong film industry started using the two characters 'Kung Fu' for their martial arts action movies and the phrase has been closely associated with Chinese Martial Arts ever since - particularly in the West.

Professionals refer to the practice of Chinese martial arts as 'Wu Kung' or 'Wu Shu' which connote the specific martial (Wu) development of skill (Kung) or art (Shu).

What's the difference between Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Karate/Judo/Taekwondo?

Chinese martial arts were formalised over two thousand years ago, and were developed primarily by Buddhist and Taoist monks. Thus, the Chinese are universally acknowledged to have have the oldest, best-proven systems - almost all other legitimate systems will acknowledge the debt they owe to the Chinese systems, which spread throughout Asia. Methods such as Karate, Judo or Taekwondo were developed hundreds of years after the formalisation of the Chinese systems, and as such, owed much of their development to Chinese martial arts systems - Karate, as first taught by Southern Chinese monks and practised on Okinawa, was originally called 'Tang Te' which translates as 'Chinese Hand'. The characters were later changed to 'Kara Te' ('Empty Hand') during a period of strong Japanese nationalism.

What are Traditional Chinese Martial Arts?

In Chinese culture, there are the so-called 'five excellences.' These are: Calligraphy, Poetry,
Painting, Music and Martial Arts. The objective in mastering any of these arts is to achieve a state
of calmness and equilibrium which the Chinese refer to as 'enlightenment'.

Mastery of any of the excellences would grant this state of peace and balance; traditional martial arts grant further benefits as well - health, fitness and the ability to defend one's self or others.

In trying to understand these arts, it is important to realise that in China, they were developed primarily by Buddhist and Taoist monks whose goal was to prolong their lives. The key for these aesthetes was to enrich themselves spiritually - self-defence was of secondary concern. However, when monks were sent out from the temples to gather alms, the harsh reality of having to defend themselves arose and the techniques that they had developed and practised purely for health reasons had to be adapted to deal with the threats of the outside world.

The systems that these holy men developed spread throughout China and across Asia, some being
adapted for purely combative use, some strictly for health development, some for theatrical
performance while others retained the essence of the original arts - to prolong and enrich the life of the practitioner, with the added benefit of providing an effective system of self-defence, should the need arise.

What's the difference between Traditional Chinese Martial Arts and Kick-boxing?

Kick-boxing is a sport. It's all about scoring points in competition 'fighting' where there are a clear set of rules, gloves, pads and a referee to control things. Traditional Shaolin training is not concerned with competitions of this nature. The techniques as taught are given to deal with real life situations where there are no rules and no referee to step in and save your life! Traditional techniques were developed to save lives under the most extreme circumstances - no really conclusive test is possible between students of traditional Shaolin, unless they choose to get involved in a all-out, real fight since Shaolin techniques are inherently dangerous and do not lend themselves to control measures.

One Shaolin Master recently wrote: "Shaolin in its orthodox form, is not a game to be played for the
entertainment of an audience or the whims of sports-minded exponents. Although there have been
competitions between Shaolin experts, none of these have proven satisfactory to orthodox
practitioners."


So at the end of the day...North versus South...as Sifu and Abbott would say...there is no permanence.
The more Shaolin there are, the better.

Amitabha

whitelion
02-28-2001, 01:52 AM
about a story where a small group of Shaolin monks rescued one of the emperor's sons from bandits or something like that.

As a sign of thanks for their help, the emperor gave a huge banquet for Shaolin. When it was discovered that the banquet included a lot of meat, and that the monks could not eat meat, the Emperor (being the son of Heaven) decreed that monks of the order of Shaolin were allowed to eat meat if they desired (among other things - I think marriage may have been thrown in there).

Just a story I read, don't know how true it is and how much bearing this has on the topic :).

I do know that Buddhism is making quite a resurgence in China, and that in certain areas Islam is also gaining more following.

------------------------------------
Talk softly and carry a big stick.

Sun_Tzu
02-28-2001, 02:35 AM
The only reason "Sifu and Abbott" say that is because they themselves are contemporary Wushu practioners posing as Shaolin Monks, and that is their way of throwing up a smoke screen for the uninformed.

....The skilled commander