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Black Fist
01-15-2001, 01:24 AM
This is interesting.

1. So who actually practices Henan Shaolin Kungfu as presented today. Not any of the derivative products but the actual fists of shaolin.

2. If so, what is your curriculum like. Our first set is Xiao Hong Quan followed by Lian Huan Quan and Chao Yang Quan. I am currently learning Jing Gang Quan 4th Set.

Hope to hear from practitioners...say Shi Xing Hong's, Shi Yan Ming's, Shi Guo Lins etc...students.

HuangKaiVun
01-15-2001, 06:03 AM
Practicing "Shaolin" kung fu isn't about doing a particular style endemic to Shaolin.

It's about using kung fu as an entry into Buddhism.

Buddhism is about learning about oneself and his relation to the world around him. Kung fu is as good a tool to accomplish that as there is.

As Shi Guo Lin said, doing kung fu without the Buddhist intent is nice, but it's not Shaolin kung fu.

Black Fist
01-15-2001, 06:50 AM
I ask a simple question of people sharing similar styles of martial arts and I get a bunch nonsense.
I am sorry let me rephrase " to fellow students of the Songshan Shaolin martial arts " ie those that have Xiao Hong Quan as a formal and essential part of their curriculum.

HuangKaiVun
01-15-2001, 05:39 PM
Spoken like a true ignorant, Black Jack.

One cannot appreciate that which he cannot perceive.

Kung Lek
01-15-2001, 06:03 PM
Hi-

Blackfist- Sil Lum Kung Fu is made up now of a myriad of styles guided by the same founding principles and many techniques that mirror across many styles that owe their origins to the sil lum temple.

The Shaolin Kung Fu of todays temple at songshan is primarily comtemporary wu shu as developed by the PRC government.
There are sets within the curriculum such as small red fist and big red fist that go back quite some ways but the rest of it is mostly wushu.

Wing Chun Kung Fu IS Sil Lum Kung Fu, Hung Gar is recognized as is Hung Fist, Hung Kuen and et al as the closest system to what was originally taught in the Southern Shaolin Temple.

Choy Li Fut is a conglameration of northern and southern styles of Shaolin Kung Fu.

as well, there are others such as Five animals fist which owes it's origins to the Sil Lum temple and there are many derivative styles and compilation styles.

It is impossible to narrow the scope of Sil Lum Kung fu and say that only what is practiced at Song Shan is the true Shaolin Kung fu. It is NOT. It is the contemporary style that is practiced at Song Shan in the here and now, that is all.

peace

Kung Lek

HuangKaiVun
01-16-2001, 12:01 AM
Black JACK, I'm sorry.

I was speaking to Black FIST.

Shaolin Master
01-16-2001, 12:14 AM
Bitterness is sweet.

Jing Gang Quan, Kan Jia Quan, Pao Chui Quan, Zhang Hu Xin Yi Men Quan, Qi Xing Quan, Lohan Quan, Tong Bi Quan ..... these are shaolin styles.

BF, Shaolin in spirit empbodies many martial arts. Most onliners are under the assumption that wushu is now shaolin, though not entirely true both are shaolin though one was practised in the temple pre-1928 and post-1928. Though caution should be taken not to differentiate fellow shaolin practitioners

In Hong kong, the shaolin school uses a modified version of Xiao Hong Quan. Shi Yan Ming in the US has added some basic sets prior to Xiao Hong Quan. Though essentially the basics are still the 24 foundation techniques that are required for the Xiao/Da Hong Quan.

Regards

Shi Chan Long

Sun_Tzu
01-16-2001, 05:39 AM
What of the animal systems? pre 1928?

Shaolin Master
01-16-2001, 05:55 AM
Black Tiger, Palace Leopard, Jade Dragon etc... are all still there except not necessarily known to many though. As in the past only one or two styles were practised with minimal forms each unless it was some very capable monk such as Shi De Gen.

Note Southern Shaolin had a larger array of animal based systems!

Regards

Shi Chan Long

Gargoyle again
01-16-2001, 08:25 PM
"True" Shaolin is something that simply doesn't exist, several hundred years of stylistic drift, migration, and variation, ultimately capped by the Cultural Revolution unfortunately have made it impossible for any to claim "true" holders of the definition. I tend to get a little irked at the presumptions coming from some of the re-established schools that have set up shop back at the temple.

On the up side though, we are all certainly children of Shaolin (I come from the 5-animals part of the family) and should look to our common heritage as something to be proud of and respect :)

The post above said it perfectly. Wing Chun is Shaolin, Hung Gar is Shaolin, Bak Mei is Shaolin, and many others

"You should never, never doubt what no one is sure about."
--Willie Wonka

Kung Lek
01-17-2001, 09:16 PM
Hi-

actually, White Eyebrow isn't shaolin.

It is a taoist art said to have come from emei shan temple.

The monk bak mei was a traitor to shaolin and betrayed them causing one of the famous burnings of the temple according to the shaolin legend.

that does not mean that bak mei is not a good martial art. it is, it's a very good system of martial art.

peace

Kung Lek

fiercest tiger
01-18-2001, 06:15 AM
bak mei and fung dao duk both where training brothers at shilum jee, and travelled to the omei shan. at kwong wai temple they both redeveloped their arts and named their systems.

bak mei=bak mei pai(white eyebrow)

fung dao duk= bak fu pai(white tiger)


;)

peace

bakmeimonk@hotmail.com

reemul
01-18-2001, 06:08 PM
I study Northern Shaolin Tiger system (???<---1928), *** NOT THE CONTEMPORARY STUFF THAT IS PRACTICED NOW ***, However as Shaolin does, our system has continued to evolve.

Black Fist
01-18-2001, 11:08 PM
Could you tell me more about it. History, lineage, qualities, forms, etc.....it would be nice thanks

reemul
01-19-2001, 02:16 AM
Go http://reemul.home.texas.net/eastwind/ It will spare my fingers.

Unlike many schools that cling to "monkdom"or legends, the
5 *individual* animal systems were controlled by five families (actual bloodlines). Before Shaolin existed at honan, there were taoist and Mohist
residing at what became Shaolin temple after Bodhi
Darhma arrived. Darhma bestowed upon both schools, the way of Buddha, and if you know anything about Chen Buddhism it is easy to correlate that it is a combination of Buddhism, Taoism, Mohism, and Confucism(spl?). Our school is linked through the Mohist.

What Bodhi Dahrma brought to the table:

What is important about Dharma is that he brought
a new mindset(not a martial art), a new approach to enlightenment through physical exertion, physical struggle or suffering (buddhism: Life is suffering, the first truth of buddhism). He taught this through the 5 animal frolics a series of movement to fascilitate physical exertion.

About the Mohist:

The Mohist were a retired military class (not that they were old, just that there philosophy had fallen out of favor, and was no longer widely accepted)and as stated earlier were residing at what is now Shaolin temple. Accepting the teachings of Dharma and the belief that enlightenment could be achieved through strengthing of the body and constant struggle, The mohist moved beyond the 5 animal frolics to constructing routines based on there martial background, The birth of Shaolin Kung fu.

Now I know many of you will disagree, for what ever reasons, but this was not posted to spark debate, it was posted to answer Black Fist's inquiry. However These views as with all others regarding Shaolin kungfu's origin and lineages, can neither be proven nor disproven as it is
common knowledge that there is no written record of events that long ago

Shaolin Temple
02-08-2001, 11:40 PM
I hope I did not offend anyone but bak mei is a sister martial arts technique to Shaolin. All martial arts introduced to Shaolin was done so via Boddhidarma who originated from India. The style that was practiced at that time and even to now is called wu ji or mo kik. This is a more superior form than tai chi (once again, no offence). In the olden days, all martial arts were classified according to class and hierachy. The upper class were to learn upper class styles and peasants...the common forms. Wu ji is the mother technique of tai chi.
Shaolin and bak mei were developed from this derivative but during the Ching dynasty, the taoist bak mei priest was a henchmen of the government and due to the centuries of rivalry between Buddhism and Taoism, he took it upon his right to try and wipe out the Shaolin cult (as he called it).
bak mei is not a bad style. It has a good system but like all styles, you may get a black sheep in the family.
Otherwise, who cares if it is Shaolin or not...kung fu is about hard work and perseverence, tolerance, chivalry, justice. No matter what style you practice, do it well with good intention and you will improve. Spread the art outwards and you will be rewarded from the learning and teaching experience.

Amitabha

Shaolin Master
02-11-2001, 01:34 AM
Shaolin Temple,

Unfortunately Wujiquan does not as a martial art/exercise pre-date Taijiquan. In fact it is quite a recent creation.
It is an excellent system of Qigong and of martial skill training many forms of internal jing.

Wuji does as a concept in TCM and Chinese Philosophy represent the state of nothingness before taiji and this concept was introduced as that of the art of wujiquan but that is its only reperesentative concept of being the mother of all styles.

Bodhidharma,
Only taught YiJinChing and Xi Sui Ching. Lohan Shi Ba Shou was created by followers based on those to exercices. Shaolin martial arts were influenced by a tremendous number of individuals thought time not just Da Mo.

Bai Mei,

Your stories are more fiction than fact. There are no records of the events that you have prementioned elsewhere other than in films or novels upon which the films were based. In the Fujian Shaolin Historical records the accounts of traitorship were attributed to another monk not Bai Mei. The rivalry between Zhi San and Bai Mei was purely Buddhist-politics not physical.

Lastly, being in so-called the rebuilt Fujian shaolin as there is no other remaining you should be more aware of such matters. The research and archeaological institute in Fujian would have many records that coincide with that of my Singapore lineage as a whole team of Singapore masters were invited to conduct research and actually form part of the research group.


Oh, by the way you don't have to repeat the same auspicous lines defining words or the shaolin faith ....

Regards

Shi Chan Long

Sun_Tzu
02-11-2001, 01:31 PM
The shaolin did not keep written record of their martial practices until late in its developement.
One of the reason there are so many schools that are not legit. I subscribe to the too good to be true methond of detection. If you fight someone claiming to be Shaolin and it is an easy victory, then it is to good to be true and they are most likely BS. Shaolin practioners are hard to comeby.

....The skilled commander