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View Full Version : OT- Is torture ever justified in coercing information from suspects?



Losttrak
03-04-2003, 08:20 AM
Just saw this poll at CNN and I am used to very conservative responses on that site, but strangely most people voted in favor of torture! What do you think about it?

txwingchun
03-04-2003, 08:24 AM
Torture a man and you can get him to confess to anything

Former castleva
03-04-2003, 08:54 AM
Txwingchun brings some point up in ways,
as it has been used the "bad way",thus to get out a confession of something that never was there.
Sort of a complex question to answer in a simple manner.

Oso
03-04-2003, 08:58 AM
why torture when there are plenty of drugs to get a person to
spill the beans.


except it's kinda fun, but besides that:D

David
03-04-2003, 09:02 AM
Some 'thoughts' I may have had: -

People will always seek to justify it to themselves or to those who's opinion they care about...

I never heard of anyone enjoying it.

It's against the Geneva Convention and the International/Euro (?) Human Rights Act.

Amnesty International aren't impressed with anyone's excuse for using it.

Some things you just aren't meant to have. Torturing people into giving up their secrets is an example of going counter to the biblical commandment "thou shalt not steal".

It's ok for Uncle Sam to torture Arabs but not vice versa?!?!

That goes for truth-drugs, aswell.

-David

red5angel
03-04-2003, 09:04 AM
I think it should be used for siblings and sex partners only....

Oso
03-04-2003, 09:05 AM
that's what I meant....

Black Jack
03-04-2003, 09:34 AM
Yes. Under the right circumstances torture has a place in interogation tactics. It's a tool like truth drugs or other less invasive psychological methods. From what I understand that level of interogation seems to be only used when under a serious time restraint that could result in the achievement of a serious threat.

Interogation has come a long way since the chinese water torture.

BrentCarey
03-04-2003, 10:28 AM
Torture and drugs are both unreliable. Understand TX, that we are not really talking about confession by an individual, but instead looking at gaining some wider-reaching information. Currently, the US military uses interrogation methods that are designed to provide motivation for the subject to tell the truth, and to use clever methods which make it difficult to avoid being caught in a lie.

The bottom line is that the most reliable method is to make the subject want to share accurate information. This is the theory behind torture - that it is more desirable to talk than to be tortured. To this degree, torture works. You can nearly always get a subject to talk using torture, but they may or may not tell you the truth. What's more, once you go down that road, you cannot backtrack and become a trusted party.

A modern interrogation, when performed by a professional, is a bit of a cross between a job interview and a counseling session (in terms of tone). The key here is "when performed by a professional." Problems arise when someone other than a professional interrogator performs the interrogation. They tend to not be familiar with the applicable rules, laws, and conventions, and are often too close to the situation to be calm and objective.

While Geneva and Hague conventions apply which forbid the use of torture, these conventions are extremely difficult to follow to the letter. I personally do not see a moral imperative which would preclude the use of torture against a POW in a conflict which would not preclude killing that same person prior to his/her POW status.

However, it is simply rarely useful to do so.

jesper
03-04-2003, 10:35 AM
Torture is a primitive way of obtaining information. And besides there is nothing you can get a person to confess with torture, which cant be obtained with other means.

Modern days interogators can get any subjects to speak, its only a matter of time. A saying goes that under perfect conditions any man will talk within 24-48 hours using modern interogation methods. Of cause most of the time, you dont have perfect conditions.

BeiTangLang
03-04-2003, 12:05 PM
Interesting that you bring this term up.
If you look at what they do, it is torture.
Not physical, but mental.
Torture is torture no matter how its done.

kungfu cowboy
03-04-2003, 02:39 PM
Things will be infinitely better all around when the sun goes supernova.

Ford Prefect
03-04-2003, 02:54 PM
For the average man: no.

For a man that is a known international terrorist who has already killed thousands of people and was planning to kill thousands more, then yes. It will save many innocent lives. Pass me the knife.

Laughing Cow
03-04-2003, 03:10 PM
I don't think that torture ever is justified.

It is an archaeic method when they had NO other way of gathering information to ascertain the Truth.

I also agree that Torture will produce the results that the torturers want and thus those are by definition invalid.

Cheers.

Laughing Cow
03-04-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
For the average man: no.

For a man that is a known international terrorist who has already killed thousands of people and was planning to kill thousands more, then yes. It will save many innocent lives. Pass me the knife.

With that type of thinking wouldn't it also be better just to nuke any Country that the US has disputes with??

i.e.: Iraq, Iran. N. Korea, France, Germany, etc.

Cheers.

DragonzRage
03-04-2003, 03:35 PM
For that al qaeda ******* we caught, you better believe that torture is justified! The information he can offer us will possibly prevent the mass murder of even more innocent civilians. It is information that we NEED to get, BY ANY MEANS NECESSARY.

On a personal note, I feel that if it was up to me I would have him castrated with a rusty fork, stick needles in his eyes, slowly cut his fingers off one by one, and then throw him in a prison cell with a big ****sexual inmate who will sodomize him repeatedly for the rest of his natural life. I hope the special forces guys who caught him gave him a thorough a$$ kicking before they turned him in. That man is a piece of human trash!

Laughing Cow
03-04-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by DragonzRage
On a personal note, I feel that if it was up to me I would have him castrated with a rusty fork, stick needles in his eyes, slowly cut his fingers off one by one, and then throw him in a prison cell with a big ****sexual inmate who will sodomize him repeatedly for the rest of his natural life.

Problem her is the phrase "I would have him castrated ...".
Don't make statements like that unless you are willing to do it yourself.

Talk is cheap, many People talk but would never do as they say it should happen.
Getting other People to do those things only shows cowardice.

This normally happens when people are emotionally involved and apply double standards.
Why "double standards" because if someone else decided to do it to theirs it would be cruel and wrong.

Example:
Americans prisoners during Vietnam, WW II in Japanese camps, etc.

Just one of the reason why the geneva convention, etc were put into place after WW II.

[Edit]
Nevermind that you will sink to the same level as other countries that are condemned by the US, UN and other countries.

Just something to ponder.

Design Sifu
03-04-2003, 04:18 PM
Torture LITE (http://www.guardian.co.uk/alqaida/story/0,12469,882001,00.html) anyone?

personally I'll be waiting for Diet Torturetm

hitting the states next summer...:rolleyes:

BrentCarey
03-04-2003, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by BeiTangLang
Interesting that you bring this term up.
If you look at what they do, it is torture.
Not physical, but mental.
Torture is torture no matter how its done.

Hmm. You clearly don't know what you are talking about. I happen to have been a professional Russian interrogator in the US Army toward the end of the Cold War. Interrogation subjects are treated quite well. You have seen too many movies.

What you are referring to is called "coercion", and it is expressly forbidden in the Geneva conventions and military doctrine. Truth be told, the best thing that can happen to a foreign soldier is to be taken by the US military as a POW. This is by design. We want enemy soldiers to know how easy and pleasant it is to surrender to us.

-B

DragonzRage
03-04-2003, 08:01 PM
"Problem her is the phrase "I would have him castrated ...".
Don't make statements like that unless you are willing to do it yourself."

-How do you know that I'm not? Put the knife in my hand and I'll be more than happy to.

"Talk is cheap, many People talk but would never do as they say it should happen. Getting other People to do those things only shows cowardice."

-How do you know that I'm among those people? Perhaps you're not the type of person to back up your views with action. You should speak for yourself and not make presumptions about others. Talk may be cheap, but your talk is just as cheap as mine. The fact that you're speaking from an opposite point of view makes no difference. Perhaps if you lost a loved one in the Trade Towers you'd feel differently.

"Why "double standards" because if someone else decided to do it to theirs it would be cruel and wrong. Example:
Americans prisoners during Vietnam, WW II in Japanese camps, etc."

-If Viet Cong captured and tortured the American officer responsible for the My Lai massacre or another similar atrocity, I would understand why they did it and I would not condemn them for it. As for the Japanese, let's not forget that they were the ones who attacked us. They also raped and slaughtered indiscriminately through Asia on scales of savagery that made the Nazis seem tame. View some photos of what happened in Nanking before you start empathizing with WWII Japanese military practices.

"Nevermind that you will sink to the same level as other countries that are condemned by the US, UN and other countries."

-I never condemned any country. I'm not George Bush. Did I say that I felt attacking Iraq is justified? White America was founded upon the systematic genocide of the Native American people and the enslavement and disenfranchisement of other minorities. Great Britain has robbed and subjugated many people and nations in the past. The U.S. and Great Britain are in no moral position to condemn other countries.

You can't judge an entire nation, but you can judge the individual. I simply feel that any individual who willingly plans or executes the mass slaughter of innocent people deserves to be put through the a similar amount of pain and agony that he so senselessly caused. I don't care what country or religion he is from. Perhaps we have a philosophical difference on that point. But whatever...you have the right to feel the way you do as i have the right to feel the way I do.

Serpent
03-04-2003, 08:06 PM
America has been torturing the rest of the planet for quite a while now, simply by being there. Can we get the UN to do something about them now, seeing as they're breaking things like the Geneva Convention by continually torturing the rest of the world?

Laughing Cow
03-04-2003, 08:21 PM
Dragonzrage.

Not a problem.

Glad that you are so sure that you can hurt and torture an individual in cold blood.

I don't know if I could do it, and hope I will never have to find out.
;)

I never sympathise with the japanese military or the nazis.
:D
Just used them as an example.

Cheers.

Serpent
03-04-2003, 08:29 PM
That's actually an interesting point.

How many of you think you could actually torture someone for information?

Don't jump to answer, just on an intellectual level. Stop and think about it, imagine physically mutilating someone, causing them extreme pain. Could you really do it?

DragonzRage
03-05-2003, 12:24 AM
I would by no means enjoy doing something like that, and I guess (to be honest) I can't say for sure that if placed in the position I'd have the stomach to follow through. But in the case of this madman, I definitely feel that it is justified. I guess that in answer to your question, I would HOPE that I'd have the strength to follow through if it was required of me. I am not experienced in interrogation or systematic torture so I can't say for sure that I have the ability to do such things without hesitation. I suppose that it'd be easier to deal with if I had some training first.

respectmankind
03-05-2003, 02:45 AM
You should never sacrafice your morals to get ahead. A small scale example of this could be many different things, i tenm dto think of movies, liek dark blue, training day, although less that movie. 24 (tv show) had some good stuff on that aawhile back

dwid
03-05-2003, 06:05 AM
First off, I think we need to define our terms with regard to torture. The media that I've seen cover this story so far has included things like sleep and sensory deprivation under the umbrella of torture. I think this is incorrect. Sleep deprivation is relatively harmless in the long run and has been a staple of police interrogation for years.

However, it's an increasingly well-documented fact that confessions coerced in such ways are not necessarily accurate. As was stated earlier, if you put someone under sufficient stress, they will cop to anything.

That said, this is a somewhat unique case in which the subject's guilt is not in question, but rather what is sought is information. The trouble is, the subject can hold out for a while and then the interrogators may believe anything he says. Truthfully, without corroboration, I can't see how anything they get from this guy is at all reliable. He is most likely familiar with our tactics, and is probably smart enough to play to his interrogators.

Ford Prefect
03-05-2003, 06:16 AM
With that type of thinking wouldn't it also be better just to nuke any Country that the US has disputes with??

Nope. Will that save innocent lives? Negative. Will coercing information from an admitted terrorist who has publicaly acknowledged his role in the slaughter of over 3,000 innocent, non-military personel? Yes. It's not like he is a "supsected" terrorist. He is one of the most well-known and well-organized terrorists in the world. EVERY country's intelligence community does not dispute this fact one bit.

Do you think the moral high-ground is worth it if another 3,000 people die in a terrorist attack that could have been stopped with information this man holds? Will you tell those innocent victim's families, that their son, mother, father, wife, etc had to die because interrogating a known murdered and terrorist would be "wrong"? Who knows? It may be your parents, children, or spouse that dies because of it. It might even be you.


Truth be told, the best thing that can happen to a foreign soldier is to be taken by the US military as a POW. This is by design. We want enemy soldiers to know how easy and pleasant it is to surrender to us.

Which is why the US is circumventing this policy on technicalities. I guess lawyers are good for something. ;)


Can we get the UN to do something about them now, seeing as they're breaking things like the Geneva Convention by continually torturing the rest of the world?

Haha! The US is the UN. They fund it. If the UN needs to use force, who spearheads the campaign? The UN has shown there absolute incompatency when it comes to force. They are a great peace-keeping force and good for handling the aftermath of conflict, but history shows they are useless in the conflict itself. BTW, please provide a specific example of the US torturing the "rest of the world". Thanks.

Ford Prefect
03-05-2003, 06:18 AM
Dwid,


However, it's an increasingly well-documented fact that confessions coerced in such ways are not necessarily accurate.

Interrogators can learn almost as much from a lie as they can from the truth. If Mr Casey was actively involved in interrogation or the intelligence stemming from interrogation, he could verify this.

davethedragon
03-05-2003, 06:22 AM
i agree with dwid

sleep deprivation is not a severe form of torture

on english tv at the moment there is a program where normal civilians were shipped off to borneo to see if they could endure a shortened easier version of the S.A.S training they made them march for a couple of days on the jungle and stand watch all night and then did a mock capture interrogation, this involved depriving them of sleep and making them stand in stress positions for prolonged lengths of time.

they were free to leave at any time but only one of them dropped out.

in an ideal world torture wouldnt be necessary and pain imposed on ano5ther human being is never right.

but the world we live in is far from ideal and getting worse by the day.

if it saves lives in the long run then i support it.

Radhnoti
03-05-2003, 08:04 AM
I think we need a specific definition of torture, as some here seem to feel that sleep deprivation is torture.

I would disagree with my government beating/cutting info out of someone, as it would "bring you down to their level".

Serpent
03-05-2003, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Haha! The US is the UN. They fund it. If the UN needs to use force, who spearheads the campaign? The UN has shown there absolute incompatency when it comes to force. They are a great peace-keeping force and good for handling the aftermath of conflict, but history shows they are useless in the conflict itself. BTW, please provide a specific example of the US torturing the "rest of the world". Thanks.

Need I say any more?

joedoe
03-05-2003, 04:08 PM
Let me tell you a story of how my attitudes towards things like this changed a few years ago. When I was in my teens and early 20's I was convinced that I could kill a person if I had to - whether it was self defence, revenge, or in the service of my country.

One day I attended a family get together. The usual feast was planned and as is fairly usual in my family crabs were on the menu in large amounts. Mum had bought 3 large, live crabs and asked me to kill them and cut them up for cooking.

Being the hard man that I was, I said "No problems", grabbed the knife and a crab and prepared to do the deed. As I was about to plunge the knife in, the crab started scrabbling and struggling and I hesitated and could almost sense its fear. I couldn't do it!

So me, the hard man who could take a human life if I had to didn't have the heart to take the life of a crab. I realised then that I had been deluding myself about being able to kill a person. I eventually killed the crab anyway, because it had to be done but it was a very hard thing for me to do.

So, don't be so sure that you could torture or kill someone you perceive to be an enemy. Once you look them in the eye and are faced with doing the deed, I am sure you will sotp and think twice as well.

Serpent
03-05-2003, 04:13 PM
Excellent post, Joe!

Laughing Cow
03-05-2003, 04:38 PM
Joe.

Great Post.

Coming from a Family of Hunters I can kill an animal, preferably in the quickest and most painless method.

All the Animals we killed and caught were for the sole purpose of being eaten.
This goes as far as raising hatch rabbits and killing them after a few months of play, after that we skinned them, etc.

A good hunter will always try to minimise the pain and suffering of it's prey, and deliberaely hurting an animal or letting it suffer goes against our beliefs.
Plus, we try to set us on as equal footing as possible when hunting.

I have seen too many animals that were maimed or similar due to bad hunting skills.
:( :(

Serpent
03-05-2003, 04:50 PM
I've only ever "hunted" fish. I think that if I had to catch and kill and prepare my own meat that I'd eat a lot less meat. I might become a fishivore pretty dayum quickly! :)

joedoe
03-05-2003, 04:51 PM
Yeah, I know I am a wuss. I figured that a lot of the posters, particularly the US posters, have probably done some hunting in their lives so are cool with killing animals, but my point wasn't about the killing as such, but more what went through my mind.

I did try to make it as quick as possible, and the way Mum had shown me to kill crabs is supposed to be the quickest way anyway. Still made me realise that it wasn't as easy as I thought it would be. And killing a human would be several orders of magnitude harder.

Laughing Cow
03-05-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by Serpent
I've only ever "hunted" fish. I think that if I had to catch and kill and prepare my own meat that I'd eat a lot less meat. I might become a fishivore pretty dayum quickly! :)

It taught me to appreciate and respect life in any form.
;) ;)

Agreed, not many people these days could do it, same way they could not club a baby seal over the head to get their fur-coat.
:D :D

Former castleva
03-05-2003, 05:02 PM
Im not so confident with crabs but I think fish is low on frontal cortex which means they are,theoretically,unable to sense pain.

It has been seen that sleep deprivation is highly harmful in long run (OK,I do not know how long torture goes and how to define) an example of that is a poor dog that eventually passes away without sleep.

uncle
03-06-2003, 02:39 AM
Just to play the Devil's Advocate " another scenario". Say one of your children or wife has been kidnapped.
[/list=1] You caught the SOB one day later[list]
You can't trust the police for competent help.
You've been informed by the SOB that she/they cannot survive an indefinite amount of time without help from someone else
He's also not saying anything else[list=a]
[/list=a] Balls in your court now what do you do??

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 02:52 AM
Uncle.

Playing the "what if" game with unlikely scenarios never won an argument.
;)

Actually "What if" games for the most part are a waste of time, as each real happening will be different and thus you cannot say "I would do X, Y or X."

Cheers.

uncle
03-06-2003, 03:04 AM
But playing in absolutes is not entirely truthful either! The same as saying we could NEVER kill any one, everyone has it in him under the right or wrong circumstances ,sorry human nature.

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by uncle
But playing in absolutes is not entirely truthful either! The same as saying we could NEVER kill any one, everyone has it in him under the right or wrong circumstances ,sorry human nature.

Agreed, but you also need to remember that torturing and capital punishments need to be done cold-blooded.

And here is where the difference comes in, it is easy to do while enraged or in another extreme mental frame but a lot more difficult when clear-minded and calm.

Actually proper torture is an art and involves a lot more than inflicting random pain.

Stumblefist:

Not sure what you are trying to say in your post.

This Thread is about torture in general, not specific about if and how the Iraqi's did torture.
And if we are justified to use the same methods as others do.

The person being tortured cares little if his torture is justified by high moral ground or not.

Cheers.

joedoe
03-06-2003, 01:59 PM
My point was not whether or not I could do it. It was addressed to those who think that they could. Now maybe the could go ahead and torture another human being. Or maybe they would be like me and find that it is not quite so easy to do as you originally thought.

Serpent
03-06-2003, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by uncle
Just to play the Devil's Advocate " another scenario". Say one of your children or wife has been kidnapped.
[/list=1] You caught the SOB one day later[list]
You can't trust the police for competent help.
You've been informed by the SOB that she/they cannot survive an indefinite amount of time without help from someone else
He's also not saying anything else[list=a]
[/list=a] Balls in your court now what do you do??

Sorry Uncle, I'm not entirely sure of the situation you're hypothesising here. Could you be a little clearer?

Is it that my wife, for example, is kidnapped. I've caught the kidnapper, but my wife is still held somewhere and in danger. The kidnapper isn't talking and the police are no help.

What would I do to get the kidnapper to tell me where my wife is.

Is that what you're asking?

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Stumblefist

Hahahaha
I would say the thread is about what people want to say not what YOU want them to say.


Just trying to prevent further Thread drift.



So take a look at dos and happens and you'll know more about whys and woulds and coulds and justifications.

You all talking so ethereally, get a closer grounding look at what happened and you can think more clearly if you can pull out someone's fingernails and think about justication in terms of numbers of dead babies or mass graves.


And here exactly lies the problem with so many arguments on KFO.

People take ONE example and stress it to death to jsutify their points.

Torture been around for thousands of Years, and most prolly will be around for a long time still.

Go to the top of the page and reread the Thread topic.

OT- Is torture ever justified in coercing information from suspects?

This thread is about torturing people (Captured prisoners) for information and if the practice is justified.

Sorry, I don't see much relevance in the links you posted to the topic.
But rather see you trying to swing the discussion into another anti-Iraq\pro-US debate.

Cheers.

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 05:01 PM
Stumblefist.

Also pls,don't justify your point as follows:

"They have done bad and horrible things so we are entitled to do bad things in the name of justice and goodwill.
Because our intentions are better than theirs were."

Which we have heard way too much in recent times. And seen too many times enacted in the Israel/Palestine conflict., etc.

BTW, this doesn't mean that I am pro-Iraq or approve of what they did.

Cheers.

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 08:53 PM
Stumblefist.

Once again slowly for you so that even you can understand it.

Torture for pleasure as the Iraqi's did and torturing a prisoner for information are different things.

The Iraqi's used a rule of TERROR not TORTURE. I doubt that the Infants had any vital information to impart.

I read "Uhuru" by Robert Ruark when I was still a teen, that was years before the Iraqi incident. And many similar Books.

We don't need the latest gory stuff from Iraq too understand torture and terror.
Your posts will skew Opinions as they play on the current anti-Iraq sentiment.

Again I REPEAT the topic is about torturing prisoners for Information.
If you can't seperate an issue like this from currrent events I feel sorry for you.

Have fun.

uncle
03-06-2003, 09:51 PM
The scenario I put forth was simply a tool showing that someone's preferences could be changed from a different perspective but I see your point about whether it makes it right or wrong in the first place[list=a]
[/list=a] Yes serpent that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't know about you , but if it was me he would be looking at a whole new sensoreal reality, and then not much else after that.[list=a]
[/list=a] Laughing cow, not to hijack the thead but Stumble brings another point up indirectly. Just how much change in public opinion is encouraged by spin doctors" media,TV,newsgroups", anyone who doesn't think that they have an impact should look a little closer.When we lost the Viet Nam war it was because the politicians ended up running it instead of the generals, I just think that so far the opposite is true here. Scary thought that.[list=a]
[/list=a] truth and honor, Bob

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 10:04 PM
uncle.

I see what stumblefist is trying to say, but am worried that it will head the wrong way.
Right now emotions are high and people will capitalise on it.
Problem is at what cost?

When would torture be justified and when not?

At the moment the USA has a limit of own soldiers killed during a peace keeping mission before they pull their troops out.

Will there be something similar when someone sez 299 people killed = no torture, 300 killed = torture.
At what stage do morals, ethic values and international conventions do kick in?

As was mentioned once you go down the road there is NO turning back or making compromises, it is a one-way road. Same with human rights or war crimes, once they are commited there is no undoing or justfying them.

Torture is either 100% ok or not.

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 10:51 PM
Originally posted by Stumblefist

The IRAQIS ALSO torture to extract information.

So do many other countries, or do you think the Israelis invite their palestinian prisoners for a Cuppa, Biscuits, comfy chair and threaten them with the soft cushion to ease their backs.
;)

So, many people vote YES and the USA will join the other nations that torture people for information.
Actually we have no clear data stating that the USA does or doesn't do so at the moment.

BTW, I don't need convincing on anything, my stand is strictly anti-torture and will remain so.
Maybe I saw too much WW II and similar footage as a child.

Just want people to look at the issue with open eyes and minds.

Cheers.

P.S.: I am also anti-capital punishment.

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Stumblefist
In the tradition of free America i stand by others being free to express their opinions and do not pretend opinions i don't like are off-topic.

Not being Ammerican I don't follow the US tradition, rules or conventions.
;) ;)

Back home everybody is FREE to voice their Opinion too, they are also FREE to be popped on the nose if I or others dis-agree with them.
:D

The same way they are FREE not to listen to someones opinion.

You see back home, we have a consitution that protects "Freedom of Speech" the same Constitution OTOH does NOT protect you from the repercussions arising from exercising that freedom.

Cheers.

Laughing Cow
03-06-2003, 11:55 PM
Originally posted by Stumblefist
But it's plain to see every argument with you becomes a pro and con specific country argument.


Only when talking with other pure pro/con people.




Well at least you came out of the closet with the reasons why you were trying to silence me.


Good one, how do I do that?

Switch your PC off from over here.
Get a life.



Anti-war and anti-torture protesters don't have to worry because others will do what is necessary (if it is necessary) to help them survive.
We must fight to preserve all our voices.


Yadda, Yadda. Got another record that one sounds broken already.
If you can't come up with a new reply save it, we heard them all.

I for one am not interested in your re-hashed propaganda.

Seeya.

uncle
03-07-2003, 12:16 AM
LC, truly I do see your point. just how long do you have to torture to aquire information before your gleefuly doing it just because your bored or you just kindalike it. Greatfully I'm not in the military and wouldn't have to come across those decisions.From time immemorial there have been certain aspects of warfare that were constants, namely assasination, torture,deception, and god only knows what else. just the way it is and always has been as long as there are conflicts in the world.[list=a]
[/list=a] Stumble, don't get me wrong I am pro American big time but since the 60's and 70's I question authority at every turn. This whole BS deal is because the Shrub's Daddy didn't kill the dirty SOB the last time we were there.[list=a]
[/list=a] For the record I am pro death penalty it really pi$$es me off that I have to support some babie killin' A' hole in prison ,gimme the switch I'd throw it.[list=a]
[/list=a] And yea we got the same nose punchin' thing here too.:D :D [list=a]
[/list=a] Truth and Honor, Bob B.

Laughing Cow
03-07-2003, 12:24 AM
One problem I see with the current US administration is that they appear to be trying to classify shades of grey colours as either black or white.
:( :(

Unfortunately neither black nor white are colours.

uncle
03-07-2003, 12:48 AM
Thats why I live in the new wild west "alaska" lot of know'd up noses up here as for drive by's, we like to call long distance 50cal style:D or up close and real personal!!![list=a]
[/list=a] nite all.. Bob B

Laughing Cow
03-07-2003, 02:38 AM
stumblefist.

Keep ranting it shows more and more of your true character.

I guess now we know where you got the "stumble" in your Id from.

Once you got a life and a grip on reality come back.
:D :D
Once you can see shades of grey would be preferable.

I guess the USA needs mindless drones like you too.
BTW, unless you are at the front fighting the war you are ALSO letting other people fight your fight for you.
Guess that makes you as bad as me.
;)

Anti-one thing does NOT equal being anti-everything YOU value.
But I guess narrow-minded people like you will never get it.
Back home we got a saying about people like you:

"So narrow-minded they use BOTH eyes to peep through a key-hole."


I feel that people like you and some other posters on here if they lived in 1930's Germanies would be prime-candidates & volunteers for the SS or Gestapo, or the Kamikaze squads during Ww II.


Have fun on my ignore list, you are in good Company.

Laughing Cow
03-07-2003, 03:46 AM
US breaches DMZ. (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/07/iraq.kuwait.border/index.html)

US rethinks German, Korean bases. (http://edition.cnn.com/2003/US/03/06/us.troops.korea.germany/index.html)

GeneChing
09-25-2014, 09:00 AM
Decade+ thread necromancy. :)


Amnesty International says China trades in 'tools of torture' (http://shanghaiist.com/2014/09/24/amnesty-int-says-china-trades-in-tools-of-torture.php)

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/shang_shanghaiist/torture3.jpg

A report released yesterday from Amnesty International finds that there is a growing number of Chinese companies involved in the manufacture and trade of "tools of torture" to nations with poor human rights records.

Amnesty discovered 130 of these companies, way up from just 28 a decade ago. The "tools of torture" could more politely be called police weapons and include instruments like electric shock batons, electric stun guns, and spiked metal batons. China is the only country known to produce spiked batons.

The products are sold to nations like Nepal, Cambodia, Egypt, Ghana, Senegal, and Madagascar; and the problem then becomes how police in these states use their new toys.

The report said:

While some of the exports are no doubt used in legitimate law enforcement operations, China has also exported equipment that has inhumane effects, or poses a substantial risk of fueling human rights violations by foreign law enforcement agencies

Meanwhile, 74 percent of Chinese are just fine with all this.

http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/shang_shanghaiist/torture.jpg
http://shanghaiist.com/attachments/shang_shanghaiist/torture2.jpg

by Alex Linder
[Images via Amnesty International]

bawang
09-27-2014, 10:45 AM
the strong do as they will, the weak accept as they must.

Kellen Bassette
09-27-2014, 10:51 AM
We prefer our torture tools proudly made in the USA.

Faux Newbie
09-27-2014, 09:14 PM
Just to throw this is, but in hindsight, I'm trying to think of a situation where torture was a practice commonly used where the goals weren't alternately terror and information gathering. Certainly Central American comes to mind.

I'm pretty sure that is one of the modern goals of all torture programs. The other being information gathering.

Pretty much any country who has been the top dog in at least the last two centuries has pretty consistently trained their allies to use torture to suppress opposition.

Syn7
09-28-2014, 01:55 PM
Whether it's justified or not really depends on your goals and your ethics. For example, if your goal is to terrorize and you are cool with that, then yeah, it can be quite effective.