07-24-2001, 01:45 PM
As some of you know, TWS wishes to come down to Austin and challenge me to a fight in Nov. Aparently I have insulted his schools honor.

The styles that will clash:

Northern Shaolin Tiger against Shaolin-do. Whatever! Anyway, this is just a thread so that TWS can ask whatever questions he may have and voice any concerns and perhaps we may even decide on the terms of the engagement. Everyone is welcome of course to rant, rave and break out the flame throwers.

07-24-2001, 05:40 PM
I though you might enjoy this.


the higher plane (http://mdn.mainichi.co.jp/news/20010723p2a00m0dm007002c.html)]

Crimson Phoenix
07-25-2001, 02:04 AM
Can't you just save your money and energy to kick Ralek's ass? He's the one who needs some serious insight about gong fu :p

07-25-2001, 02:54 AM
one a scale of one to Ten
one being Yang style tai chi chuan and ten being Shotokan Karate. were does it full and tell be alot about it you can just email me if you like

Oh and TWS shaolin do just a question what is that from what I understand its like a karate school that uses chinese(sometimes competition forms) in place of karateKatas. I really dont know you know I just asking. dont get offended I just wanted to know the truth from a Shaolin-Do guy that all.

Andre Lashley

The Willow Sword
07-25-2001, 07:43 AM
northern shaolin tiger,,,sounds preety fierce.
cant wait to get scratched by the kitty here.
reemul hasnt really insulted the school's honor,,he just needs a lesson on how to be humble . if you are going to use your tiger and i am going to use mine then i suggest that you prepare kid for what is gonna come your way. i dont play around and this aint a peacock fight.
im not gonna kill you but i am gonna make you sorry for opening up your mouth and trashing something that you have idea what it is about. you still seem to want to hide behind your screen name and talk ****. well i am out in the open and waiting for you to reveal who you are. like i said before if you have been to the austin school then WE HAVE MET. and you know that i am dedicated to what i do and that i do not play around either. you have probably gotten instruction from me so i would really think about it and what you are going to get yourself into.
take it as you will but rest assured in november i will be coming down and not just to plaster your ass all over zilker but tio also get some more "REAL" training to continue my work here in TAOS.
so what are the rules gonna be?
none i hope.
many respects, willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-25-2001, 07:55 AM
To Andre Lashley: Northern Shaolin Tiger posses all aspects of Shaolin training. Our system goes through external, internal, animal, and weapons. The external phase is not to be compared with karate, the two have different strategies and movements. Our form styles of basic Shaolin Chuan, Chang Chuan, Tai chi Chuan and weapons all carry traits indicative of the Tiger system.

the external phase consist of body transformation consisting of balance, cooridination and stretching and power. We also introduce horse training as well as the first form of our system, upon completing the form the student is introduced to basic Shaolin Chuan, that is shaolin boxing for the laymen.

07-25-2001, 11:54 AM
I did not Study SD in Austin. Also, so you told me your name, I still don't know you. You might as well have just given me another username. You don't know me either so get over it. When we meet I will introduce my self as reemul, and when you get your ass beat, you can tell everyone you got your ass beat by reemul.

I know what it means to be humble, do you know what it means to live a lie, cuz thats what your doing.

Being humble doesn't mean lacking an opinion or being PC.

The Willow Sword
07-25-2001, 06:00 PM
your opinion is not an opinion it is a blatent insult. others on this forum have stated OPINIONS about my school but not to the extent of your crap. As far as who I am? chat with monkey slap or GENE, they have talked with me on the phone and know who i am. you are treading on thin ice kid. the fact that you will not tellme who you are states to me that you are a kid and a coward.and you will probably not show up to meet my challenge(ha introducing yourself as reemul) that also tells me that you are a kid and have NO IDEA WHAT YOU ARE GETTING YOURSELF INTO. oh and also, i have been reading your posts,took some time to stay up last night and read some of them them. i am getting to know you more than you know yourself.
Many respects, Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-25-2001, 06:48 PM
Not giving your name NOW does give you time to find someone else to fight TWS for you...
A local instructor, some NHB fighter you're distantly connected with that your trying to convince... whatever. I don't think it's unreasonable for TWS to request your ACTUAL name. At the very least it will force you to lock in your replacement.
Why not just send it to him via e-mail and request that he not reveal it to the forum? I'm sure he'd agree to that stipulation.


07-26-2001, 01:42 AM
Wow - that was a bit patronising. I don't think many people reading these boards are "laymen". Its a CMA forum isn't it?

I must bow in deference to your superior knowledge.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

07-26-2001, 01:49 AM
"...Tai chi Chuan and weapons all carry traits indicative of the Tiger system."

I'm a little confused by this statement. Could you elaborate on that part? Well, elaborate on the tai chi chuan carrying traits indicative of the tiger system.

Peace :D

07-26-2001, 02:39 AM
"Not giving your name NOW does give you time to find someone else to fight TWS for you..."

Nah, doesn't make a difference. A name is a name. Even if he said his name was John Smith he could still get someone to go fight and call themselves John Smith. Same goes for TWS. I think the name thing is superficial.

Actually, I doubt they will ever meet.

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

07-26-2001, 05:04 AM
At least Abandit gets it. Although, I will show and I don't need a sub. As for the laymen comment, not everyone who comes in here has experience in shaolin kungfu, could be some newbies in here. Seeing as TWS doesn't study Shaolin kungfu, that was for his benefit too.

Tiger traits:
The animal systems of the northern monastary each took on traits of respective animals. For instance, a Tai Chi form developed under a mantis system will yield more mantis traits, theory and movement and the same goes for chang chuan and basic Shaoin chuan. If this doesn't answer you question then I'm not really sure what your looking for.

07-26-2001, 05:21 AM
I think he's asking if:

a. the tai chi was a seperate tai chi/qigong form(s) developed by the tiger system and shaolin with a tiger flavor and tiger movements


b. the tai chi was actually forms from another style of tai chi (ie. Yang, Chen, Wu, etc) that were played by the tiger stylists with tiger flavor and thus slightly modified.

Hope that clears it up. I was wondering the same thing.

07-26-2001, 05:55 AM
Well the whole northern shaolin making a tai chi form (which is taoist) sounds funny to me. Tiger systems alone (and a majority of Shaolin systems) are antithetical to Tai Chi principles

Peace :D

07-26-2001, 06:08 AM
Maybe you're right ABandit, I just felt that TWS has been pretty forthright, whereas reemul has been...maybe not evasive, but certainly less upfront. At least if he gave someone his real name it'd be something else for his substitute to remember. If I were TWS I'd go pick out one of his posts to discuss or maybe mention a popular forum name, just as a quick test. TWS doesn't seem to be the type to back down, to me. But, reemul has talked down SD so much...his shame will be unbearable unless he completely dominates TWS. Situations like that can make folks want to "be extra certain". Obviously, my money is on TWS. And I sincerely hope that NO ONE gets hurt. Not even you reemul. Best case scenario, they meet...fight, call a draw before anything too bad happens, go to dinner together and laugh it off.


The Willow Sword
07-26-2001, 07:42 AM
that would be a nice ending however i dont think that this will be the case. either he or i will be nursing wounds from all the tiger clawing. i will use my tiger to his and well see whats crap and what is not. i will say that i will NOT involve my Master in this. this is mt deal and if i come out on top then great but if not then he does not have to suffer for it. its my crusade i guess,,BUT I WILL FOLLOW THROUGH WITH IT FELLAS. the rest is up to reemul. AND REEMUL you bring ANY weapons of any kind to this meeting and its gonna be survival and i WILL PUT YOU IN THE HOSPITAL<<KNOW THIS ..this is about our hands feet and spirits not knives swords sticks and stones....you pull it you better be able to use it and finish me off.
many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-26-2001, 08:13 AM
Let me know how it goes. Just remember to keep it as friendly as you guys can ;)

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

07-26-2001, 11:11 AM
To Lost_Desciple, thanks for clearing that up.
I'll try to clearify Illusionfist question as well.

Shaolin masters were not oblivious to to the outside world and often traveled throughout China. Upon coming across other MA, there was often an exchange of knowledge. Understanding the advanced theories rather than the specific application, Masters of Shaolin would construct Tai chi forms unique to that particular styles attributes. Consider this, Chang chuan is the concept of using bone alignment for power or force rather than power through using muscle. Each animal system has its own unique form or forms that teach this theory, however the forms from system to system will look completly different however teach the sam principles.

Somthing else on animal systems. Contrary to what the Green Dragon Society claims on their webpage, the animal systems of shaolin were not only based on movement of certain animals, but the goal is to embody the animals mindset. Its not about walking around with your hands contorted saying "these are tiger claws".

07-26-2001, 11:26 AM
This is aparently a duel for honor. I guess, I wouldn't know seeing as you brought the challenge.

As I said before, I'm not angry or mad, you are just an obsticle that is intent in being placed in my path some time in Nov. If you want some useful information about me, how about this. I am about 5'11" to 6' and range in weight from about 175 to as high as 190. The change in weight is due to experimenting with changing diets. Our school trains in a seasonal manner so you will be coming about at the apex of boxing season so my weight should be roughly in the 180 range, maybe.
This matter can be as friendly as you want it or as hostile as you want it. By the way, this kid is older than you by a couple of years.

The Willow Sword
07-26-2001, 07:24 PM
There will obviously be a time span between now and when i come to Austin in november. when the time for me to go there gets close i will post again. it would be GREAT if other forum members living in Austin could show up to this event and witness the challenge. Im sure some of you would love to come and watch. this would also make for the discussion on the forum here a bit more real about what is crap and what is not and who is living a lie and all that other crap reemul seems to wanna push on me as well as others. A Neutral moderator would be good as well. i will have a partner at my side to witness which i am sure reemul will as well, but as i have stated, other forum members in the austin area would be good.
that way when REMUUL doesnt show up it will be noted and explained here by members that everyone trusts and givs credit to. I DO NOT WANT THIS TO BE A RALEK SCENERIO OK GUYS.
Many Respects, Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

MonkeySlap Too
07-26-2001, 07:58 PM
Any chance JWT would be up to serve as ref? I think he could probably help keep things civil.

Also - TWS, please be careful about making personal injury threats on the web. Yes, we are martial artists, and sometimes a 'test' of skill does hurt another person, but it all done with consent. Talking smack just allows the other guy to feel justified to escalate.

And - if you guys keep this friendly, I'd love to see this match video taped, as always.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

MonkeySlap Too
07-26-2001, 08:00 PM
I mis-read your post about bringing weapons. Sorry if I sounded preachy. I tend to rush on these boards.

If someone brings a weapon to a friendly match, they should get thier butt whipped.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
07-27-2001, 12:13 AM
yeah i have no idea what this kid, 30 yrs old or older is really about so i put the warning out there. yes this would be something to be video taped. I hope that some of the forum members WILL come to this. i would like sifu jeff hughes or one of his pupils to witness or even be a moderator... i think it would be silly to have a SD or a Northern shaolin tiger instructor mediating the fight. either him or someone else who has a digicam to take a minute shot of the match..... Reemul,,,,what do you think?
Many Respects, Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-27-2001, 06:33 AM
I think I lost sifu's e-mail address, but his contact information's on the http://www.kungfuexchange.com website.
If you guys go looking for him, just remember he moved his school, it's further down Manchaca.

I'd help keep an eye on it, but I kinda wanna be out of Texas by October.

Nice job on the site by the way guys (that was u wasn't it Liz?)

07-27-2001, 12:53 PM
I had absolutely no intention of bringing a sideman or weapons, just me myself and I. So what are your stats TWS?

The Willow Sword
07-27-2001, 08:52 PM
i am 6ft 2' about 185lbs. it would be wise and traditional if you had a side man with you ,,in case you need to be carried off. its always good to have an ally at your side. mine wont jump in no matter what. anyway on with the training.
Many respects, Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Scott R. Brown
07-28-2001, 02:12 AM
If you two are merely venting your spleen, this thread is a healthy outlet for your childish posturing. If you two really intend to fight, you should be ashamed of yourselves. This is not the appropriate behavior for any person serious about the MA. Your instructors should be embarrassed by your behavior. If I knew whom your instructors were, I would inform them of your inappropriate behavior in order that they may correct the errors in your character. If your instructors approve of this type of behavior, then both of you have chosen the wrong instructors to train you in the MA. Both of you are acting as if you were 15 years old. It is time for both of you to apologize for any offense you have given the other.

Disagreements about MA are as old as MA. There are no perfect styles. People train in the MA for various reasons, not all of the reasons include self-defense. If the two of you are instructors you are both behaving as very poor examples to the younger members of this BB and you appear as a couple of fools to the older ones. Dignity and honor art not attributes someone else can take from you. But you certainly can give them up. If you two are serous about the comments you are making and not just goofing off (which in itself still sets a poor example) then both have surrendered your dignity and honor already and fighting will not return it to you. It will drive it further from your grasp.

If you two fight, the winner would not be demonstrating the superiority of his art only the superiority of his skill. The individual makes an art effective. The desire to injure someone who has hurt your feelings (and that is what an insult does) is as great a demonstration of immaturity as the person who has performed the insult (assuming the insult was intentional) in the first place. You are not fighting for your MA styles you are fighting for your own personal egos. It is time for both of you to start studying more deeply about the meaning of training and its purpose for developing better individuals.

To any other mature readers of this thread;

It is time you have spoken up and counseled these youngsters on appropriate behavior, if we do not, who will. If they disregard our counsel we have still set the example for the younger more impressionable readers as to what proper conduct, honor and dignity are about.



07-28-2001, 03:00 AM
That last post just about sums it up. The quote below is relevant I think.

It comes from the recent article about the Japanese KF guys who had a challene and one died. Was it really worth it? No-one really won did they? What did it prove?

It only proved that they were both dumb.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

07-28-2001, 03:16 AM
If you need a moderator, lemme know. I wouldnt mind a road trip anyways. Havent been to the Czechstop in West, Texas for awhile (our usual halfway point to Austin). Never hurts to have a witness.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

The Willow Sword
07-28-2001, 09:08 AM
THE BELTED EARL OF THE KUNGFU MARTIAL ARTS ALL THAT IS PURE AND SANE MASTER HAS SPOKEN. well we cant all be as perfect as you sweetheart. let me ask you a question oh venerated sifu of all you survey, ever been in a situation where the insults keep on coming and you feel like you have to do something about it? My School gets the sh!t stick here in this forum as well as other places. hell you have probably said bad things about the Shaolin-Do school yoursef so dont hand me that EGO sh1t. i have been polite and cordial and freely giving of information on this forum, and this clown as well as others puts me down for it, as well as the other SD forum members here. besides i am not involving my teacher in this and i would not go through with the match if he told me not to. we are big boys and can take care of ourselves. what this is gonna prove to all of you is that if you are gonna talk sh1t on this forum you had better be able to back it up with not only solid proof but with the gaul to say it to a persons face and not hide behind a silly screen name and profile. hell mr scott brown you might be another kid out there qouting some book youve just read about philosophy and how not to be confrontational and all that other clap jap. believe me i have had 15 yrs in the martial arts and whereas i would shun this fool and just go about my buisiness,,i am wanting to be a part of this community and be a respected one as well,,and if i have to kick somebodys ass to do it and placate to their own ego and insults then i will!!!! ive tried everything else but what i will NOT DO IS BE AN Isolationist in this world of screw ups like reemul and not do anything about it. What you need to understand is that sometimes healing and lessons in life are not always a benign thing. being 27 yrs in martial arts as your profile states you should know this.
ANYWAY,,,, this will not change and i will be ever vigilant in my training and when november comes i will be ready. unless we have fought in a war such as vietnam or korea we never reaklly have a chance to really test out what we are learning in this discipline,,yes its about harmony and peacefullness and all that,,but it is also about FIGHTING AND SURVIVAL or have you forgotten that mr Brown?
well this is fininshed,,nothing you or anyone can say will keep me from this with the exception of my teacher,,and if you want to "report" me to my teacher, go ahead,,i am a disciple of master Joe shaefer of the Shoalin do kung fu and taichi school in austin texas. do what you will.
Many respects,,willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-28-2001, 12:06 PM
I have followed this thread and the others that lead up to it for some time now. It seems to me that the Willow Branch is quite fragile and brittle, to be manipulated so easily. To be honest, Reemul just seems to be a very blunt and outspoken fellow. His posturing in this matter seems to carry a tinge of apathy.

As I recall, Willow was upset that everyone who spoke out against SD, had no experience with it. Reemul replied that he did have experience and that he "thought it was crap"(somewhat crude). Sounds to me what hurt Willow more was the fact that someone who was familiar with SD didn't think to highly of it. I don't understand this, because from what I understand, Sin's own brother studied the same thing yet broke away from his brother because Sin was perpetuating lies about the origin of the system.

Whether you guys fight or not, I really don't care.
However I think the Willow Sword should change his name to "The broken twig", for being so easily provoked.

....The skilled commander

Scott R. Brown
07-28-2001, 05:44 PM
Mr. Willow,

Thank you for the humorous response to my post. It was very impassioned. I am happy that you took what I have written to heart and I appreciate your comments and compliments. I would be nice to see your passion channeled into more productive directions. I am sorry for the way you have apparently been treated by some members of this BB. No one likes to be ridiculed publicly as you apparently have been. It is clear that your feelings have been deeply hurt by Reemul and others. I too come from an American eclectic Kung fu style based on Shaolin. It is called Fu Chen and we have about 4-5 schools in California and Wisconsin. I understand that being accepted by the MA community is important. We all want credibility. I understand that a person can only take so much and it appears you have been pushed to your limit. Please allow those who are concerned and care, and who are able to think more clearly help you calm your wrath before you do something that you may regret. Defending your honor and the honor of your style in this manner will not gain you respect. It will more likely prove to your nay-sayers that they were right about you and your art. While it is difficult to do while others are ridiculing you, you must attempt to rise above your detractors and demonstrate to them through your conduct that you are a person of sincere purpose. Historically, many new MA are ridiculed in their infancy. Morihei Uyeshiba was ridiculed for his development of Aikido, it is now one of the fastest growing MA in the world, and it is still ridiculed in some circles. Let the success of your art speak for itself. If others want to poo poo your art, it is a reflection of their immaturity for not giving it a chance. If some poo poo your art based on some evidence of personal experience, let your conduct and the conduct of others in your art prove them wrong. Not everyone will like you or your art. I believe that we should live our lives in such a manner that, if anyone hears something bad about us it will be disbelieved out of hand because of our exemplary example, not proven true by our poor example. It is not too late to take the high road. There is no dishonor in recognizing that you have made a mistake. The young minded may be upset about missing a spectacle, but those of us that are more sober minded will respect you for doing what is right.

I am relatively new to this BB. I am unfamiliar with you, Reemul, and Shaolin-do. My art is only 25 years old and we are still very small. I would not and have not disrespected you, your art, or any other art. Individuals are another matter. Inappropriate behavior is inappropriate whether it is pointed out by a 15 year old or a 50 year old.

What you are planning is not a war it is unethical, immoral and AGAINST THE LAW. It sets a poor example for younger students. You are attempting to gain something that will move further from your grasp should you follow through. The only ones that will respect you or Reemul are the childish and immature. Are these the type of people that you want attempting to bring credibility to your art? All that will occur is that you and your art will lose the credibility you so want to gain.

While posturing is childish, I am happy to take your slings and arrows if it will help you ventilate some of the anger you have. It does need to be expressed in a more appropriate manner than in a fight. That is why people and animals engage in posturing. It is an attempt to avoid physical conflict. So here I am ventilate some more. Get it all out so that you can turn your passion to developing Shaolin-do into an art to be admired and respected

I will be happy to speak on your behalf to your Sifu. Please send me a personal e-mail with your name and his telephone number and perhaps together your Sifu and I can help dissipate some of this aggression.

Reemul, We have not heard from you on this yet. Perhaps an apology would be in order. As I am unfamiliar with the depth of this dispute between you, I understand I may be speaking out of turn. However, fighting will not solve the issue or prove a thing. Swallowing our pride is difficult. We have all eaten crow at times. It is never wrong to take the high road. I am asking to review your own comments relative to Mr. Willow and ask yourself if maybe you have gone too far. If your conscience and ego will allow, please apologize. Sometimes mortal enemies can become good friends. It is not too late, yet.

I hope you two can work this out peaceably. I am at your service to help in any way.



07-28-2001, 06:16 PM
He said poo poo.

07-28-2001, 06:41 PM
First of all, as far as I'm concerned, I'm not hostile or mad at TWS. As Sun_Tzu had commented perhaps my comment was a bit crude however it was an opinion based on experience. As for Shaolin Do, To name a MA Shaolin "anything" is to imply that there is actual material from a Shaolin system. However No Shaolin System including Ours recognize any traits of Shaolin kungu in the Shaolin Do system. The History of the Shaolin Do system is far beyond questionable, its a straight up fable, just ask Sin's Brother. As for whether the system of Shaolin Do is an effective MA, I could care less, but IMO it is claiming to be something that it is not.

I did not bring this challenge and until we meet face to face, I am of the opinion that I have yet to be challenged. All that has occured is that TWS has anounced his intention to challenge me.

MonkeySlap Too
07-28-2001, 08:55 PM
If these two guys were out to 'do each other' I'd step in too. I've chatted with willow, and Reemul's personality comes through in his posts.

A 'challenge' match is nothing unusual. I've fought in plenty of them. Some friendly (thank god) and some not friendly.

In the right setting, they often result in bridges being built. It is only when there are a couple nutcases getting together that there are real problems.

Sure, violence does not solve anything. Sure postureing is immature. But we are in the violence business. Reemul beleives that Shaolin Do lacks content. WTS says SD has it. While they won't prove anything about the history of SD, they will get a chance to compare techniques. As long as this is done with respect and caution, no problems.

The purpose have having impartial referees is to prevent any real injury or malicious behavior.

Martial arts are martial. We can funnel that with ethics and morality, but when you try to stop all interchanges of skill, you are no longer doing martial arts. Until you have tried yourself, you just do not know. So let them play. It's not like it is a death match or they are inciting a gang war.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

MonkeySlap Too
07-28-2001, 08:59 PM
I was teaching for a week in a friends school when a belligerent nutcase walked in. I had been warned about this guy. He was going around challenging and beating up instructors in my area. Most instructors tried to talk him out of fighting by talking about the high spiritual evoloution of thier art.

When he challenged me I dropped him before his sentance was complete. When I revived him I explained to him that I was not so spiritually evolved, but maybe finding some peace within himself might be good for his health.

A man of peace must fight like ten tigers.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

07-28-2001, 10:46 PM
Thats classic. Would have been fun to witness.

Regardless of propaganda (Kwai Chang Kain syndrome) we have all learned that talk is cheap and fighting is what we are about. There is no harm in cashing peoples checks as long as its a consentual event and there isnt any death involved. I have already offered my services to ensure that it doesnt go further than the fighters specify from the outset. If we ask most of our sifu's, their reputation was forged through another persons pain. Unfortunate, but that is the path we have chosen.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

Scott R. Brown
07-29-2001, 01:58 AM
You gentlemen make some valid points. I understand I am coming in late in the argument and probably do not have a complete picture of the situation. I know there are nuts and bullies out there that only respond to the iron fist. However, pre-meditated mayhem, is dangerous and against the law. If someone gets seriously injured it will not matter if it was a consensual altercation. Someone could end up maimed or killed. See the link to the Japanese MA in this thread that allowed his ego to destroy the lives of two families and damaged innumerable students not to mention spending most of the rest of his life in prison. I worked for the Calif. Dept. of Corrections for 10 years. The prisons are full of people that let their passions cloud their judgment.

If these two want to get it on; then they should both enter sanctioned competitions. Whether it is a local tournament or or the Ultimate Fighting type competitions. If they want to prove their arts and their manhood, these would be the appropriate and legally sanctioned means. Regardless of the history of unsanctioned challenge matches in the MA, it is not the wisest manner to resolve conflict. If these two want to prove their toughness and manhood they should join the Special Forces where they will have a opportunity to actually kill someone and prove how tough and manly they really are. I know people that have killed and injured people in the course of their jobs and in self-defense. The consequences are seldom worth the trouble their actions caused, regardless of how legal and justifiable their actions were.

I have tried to be gentle, but both these gentlemen are a couple of “wannabes” and they will continue to be “wannabes’ until they grow up, which does not appear likely to occur. It takes character to be a real man not self-centered, ego driven machismo. This is an argument of words and opinion not some nut who poses an immediate danger. That makes their actions premeditated and the consequences of making the wrong decision greater. They are risking personal injury, their own reputations, the reputations of their arts and the reputation of the MA in general. If they have families they are risking the trauma of the loss or injury of a father, son, or brother and/or the expense, embarrassment and trauma of trial and prison for one or both of them, all for the defense of little egos. This is not some profound cause they are fighting for. It cannot be reasonably justified morally, ethically or legally.

I have attempted to interject some reason into the situation. I hope the best for Reemul and Willow Sword. I hope no one gets seriously injured and the loser does not decide to press criminal charges or come back with a bigger gun. I also hope these two come to their senses and behave like responsible adults. I hope they quit thinking only about themselves and consider the poor example they are setting for younger members of the MA and possibly their own children..



danny from miami
07-29-2001, 03:43 AM
video tape the fight! ill buy a copy of the video or something

07-29-2001, 03:49 AM
Your attempts to avert a nasty event are admirable, but I fear wasted. Challenge matches have been around as long as there has been more than one style of fighting. They are a product of the martial heritage, and possibly an important part of martial development.

While I hope that neither Reemul or TWS are seriously injured in their meeting, I do not think there is a whole lot anyone can do to prevent it. Let them sort out their own differences.

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

The Willow Sword
07-29-2001, 04:22 AM
i have heard you. although it seems in your last post YOU resorted to your own ego and insults. "wannabes"? i guess you are not as perfect as your writings make everyone think. I do appreciate the other words you have written and understand them quite clearly. But this is a road i MUST travel before going on. thankyou Monkey slap for the opinions expressed. and as for sun tzu,,"broken twig"? hmmm well. i think that a name such as you have givin yourself on this forum is not worthy of the insult. do YOU remember who sun tzu was? hmm i wonder.
i would address more of your writings mr. Brown but i will not. you live in your reality and i will live IN Reality. and as for REEMUL,,,whatever exchanges we have together come november i truly hope that the lessons learned will be of benefit to both. when it is all said and done i hope that we can have tea together or a Corona at CHuy's. i will recant my "screw up" insults to you and the tauntings. for that i apologize but the challenge still stands. and i will contact you on this forum when the time draws near. until then.....
Many respects, willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Scott R. Brown
07-29-2001, 04:56 AM
Mr. Willow,

I appreciate that you recognized my attempt to shame you and Reemul into thinking more clearly about your attitudes. I recognize it appears I have sunk to a lower level. Sometimes when reason cannot prevail, shaming someone will. It is clear my attempt has failed. I have never made the claim to perfection although I appreciate the high esteem you seem to consider I deserve. I am aware that my attempts to counsel temperance would most likely be ignored. My


Scott R. Brown
07-29-2001, 04:58 AM
Mr. Willow,

I appreciate that you recognized my attempt to shame you and Reemul into thinking more clearly about your attitudes. I recognize it appears I have sunk to a lower level. Sometimes when reason cannot prevail, shaming someone will. It is clear my attempt has failed. I have never made the claim to perfection although I appreciate the high esteem you seem to consider I deserve. I am aware that my attempts to counsel temperance would most likely be ignored. My “reality” dictated to me the I at least make the effort. You and Reemul clearly intend to follow through with this course of action. I therefore encourage both of you to conduct yourselves with dignity and honor. Do not fight with anger in your hearts and give each the respect each is due. Seek to prevail in a manner the does the least harm to the other and do not gloat over victory. I agree tea and crumpets or a tall frosty one following your match would demonstrate good sportsmanship. I wish you both the best of luck Keep in mind that the best man does not always win.

Thank you for the opportunity to voice my concerns concerning the both of you. You each have made yourselves clear. I will respect your decision and make no further comments or attempts to counsel temperance.



07-29-2001, 05:31 AM
What really cracks me up is reemul's wide eyed innocent routine. Here's just a few caustic remarks I've seen him throw about:
Concerning SD forms:
"The question before us is not whether the forms are impressive (even though I was not impressed)."

Slamming oldmonkey who seemed friendly to SD:
"Well oldmonkey it seems Denial is what keeps you going."

Here's an interesting exchange in which reemul decides to post an e-mail exchange. I love ABandit's comment at the end:


Registered: 10-29-00
Posts: 299
No Northern Shaolin Tiger system

According to Bagwa boxer Northern Shaolin Tiger system is a myth, and the only Shaolin tiger is system was Southern Shaolin.hahaha.
posted 03-04-01 02:31 AM


Next time you decide to email me and then post what I have to say in private email onto this or ANY forum you better be prepared to suffer the consequences.
Why don't you try telling everyone here since you opened it up your "lineage" and see just how far you make it before you're laughed outta here.
Or better yet, you could come over to the kung-fu forum instead if hiding in this one.
You emailed me asking about some obscure Bagua that your so-called sigung teaches that is shaolin-based and within a tai-chi framework...whatever the hell that means. Then you went on to describe your lineage which is laughable at best.
You couldn't support your argument or opinion in Email correspondence and so you come to a forum that you know I don't frequent to spout-off.
Sounds like you're the one who needs the help.
Don't look for any further comments from me as I have far better things to do than waste my time with the ignorant, liars and frauds.
All of your emails will in like be deleted without regard or reply of any kind as I told you before.
Now run along and practice your "shadow-boxing".
posted 03-04-01 10:50 AM

Registered: 10-29-00
Posts: 299
actually you dumba$$

I have given a general brief run down of our history on here before, you must have been asleep.
Also I was not asking you about the obscure bagwa form I was learning, I was asking you about your experience with bagwa seeing as that is your system of specialization. You then proceeded to give me your opinion of our school and my instructor and how you believe he is a fraud, even though you have never met the man, and the limited information I have given you is hardly enough to pass judgement. If your that bent about me asking you to share your experience, then perhaps you should come express your concerns in person


From: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Registered: 02-07-01
Posts: 1632
Great, another flame war and challenge.

Another rude comment to TWS:
"One question

Can you fight? My experience in fighting You guys tells me the answer is no."

This is pretty rude too...but it might have been after the challenge:
"Now as for your schools forms being martial then why is it a fellow classmate of mine goes up to the Shaolin do school here in town and beats up on their instructors. Now for all the effort you go into making it seem like Shaolin do trains for actual combat it amazes me how a whole school, larger than ours in members, cant deliver against one person."

Also, a new member came along and challenged him to a fight once, but after reemul posted a reply the fellow quit posting.

Since the challenge reemul has said several more rude things, but they are mostly in this thread and you've probably read through them already.

Anyway, the point of this: I've always considered reemul one of the "Big 3" SD attackers on this forum. Of those three, reemul was the nearest to TWS, so his choice makes sense. I'd like to echo nearly everyone's sentiments by hoping no one gets hurt, but I think a challenge is a very traditional thing (from a CMA perspective) when one stylist feels another has gone too far with the "mouth boxing". Best of luck to TWS.


MonkeySlap Too
07-29-2001, 06:17 AM
Actually it cost my buddy three students who were 'horrified' at what I had done.

Still, the knucklehead kept inviting me back...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

07-29-2001, 09:21 AM
Now ladies,

I'm afraid i'm going to have to ask you to leave if you two don't quit your internet soap opera.

07-29-2001, 01:06 PM

See yin/yang dagger,

This is not a flowing set nor does it look anything like Bai Mei Kung-Fu.

07-29-2001, 02:54 PM
That supposed email from bagwaboxer was total fiction thats why the moderator closed the thread.

07-29-2001, 03:01 PM
By any chance were you at the 2nd No games tournament in Austin.

MonkeySlap Too
07-29-2001, 07:28 PM
I'm a heckava lot tougher online. Mostly thanks to my new PS2 mixed video game style...

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

07-29-2001, 10:32 PM
If, if, if, any of this is going to happen I would be the perfect witness. One, I don't know either one of you and could care less. (Of course, I must only slightly root for a Texas boy over Taos, but I like NM allot too and I do allot of climbing there). But the big thing is that I own a series of duplexes about a total of 1 mile from Reemul's school, and I live only 10 minutes away.
I would be happy to provide a nuetral ground if either one of you would rather fight somewhere else in Austin.

Hell, I'll have my wife make some cookies. To the winner goes both honor, and COOKIES.
That's right, it's ON now.

Why don't both of you go to www.kenpoworld.com (http://www.kenpoworld.com) and submit your contact information, and we'll ink this thing in.

BTW, Reemul, do you or anyone else from your school spar outside of your school?


If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

The Willow Sword
07-30-2001, 08:19 AM
I do not go to bash fest contests. so no i do not think that you know me. As for wingtsun, Yin/Yang dagger is not a form that i do or have learned,,but what i do know of dagger fighting and the COMBAT forms associtaed with them, the main purpose to learn to fight with a knife is to stab the opponent to kill them or seriously injure them,,not to do a dance around them and pretend to be a crouching tiger hidden dragon martial artist. Learn the difference between COMBAT forms and modern wushu ballet with weapons.
As for john wayne taylor. you can email me about what you would like to do as far as being involved in this,,just drop me an e-mail and we"ll chat. i was thinking of Zilker park either where the theatre is next to barton springs OR Pease park. on south lamar next to The Tavern.
Many respects, Willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-30-2001, 09:03 AM
I do not want to side anyone. Martials Arts is about discipline. Martial Arts is about combat and respect.

However, Shao Lin arts is about tolerance. Shao Lin will always hold peace as its first and foremost discipline.

TWD, if your school did indeed call itself Shao-Lin and does not arise fom the Shao-Lin lineage, why not just admit it ? And if it did come from a direct Shao-Lin lineage, why not withold its traditions instead of littering on it ?

07-30-2001, 02:19 PM
Hey reemul, don't forget to challenge the Shaolin Temple since you think the monks are fake.

I don't know who you are, but you're an insult to your sifu.

07-30-2001, 04:25 PM

Your profile doesn't include your e-mail. Please e-mail me, I've something of possible interest for you concerning martial arts forums. :)

07-30-2001, 08:19 PM
I did not bring this challenge, remember that. As for the New Age Shaolin Monks, I have never commented on whether I thought they were good fighters only that I believe along with many others that they are contemporary Wushu athletes and have lost most of their classical systems. It takes more than a yellow robe and a shaved head, to make me blink.

To Willow, I just rember a domonstration by Joe Shaefer at the 2nd "No games" and one of his students who was about your height.

07-30-2001, 08:46 PM
You are bringing this challenge by responding to it, by playing the game it entails, and allowing it to become something that you see as importance. It is an illusion to believe that participating in fighting to prove something will make you a better person. Fighting hurts the agressor as well as the receiver, and in all fights I have been in, the outcomes are usually pyschological as well as physical. You can come out a winner physically and a loser psychologically.

You should decide in life what it is you truly want. Is fighting someone from a message board on the internet what you truly want in life?

I probably shouldn't bother as Scott R. has already made an attempt, but I would rather see this dropped so neither of you pays the long term consequences.

If you do fight, and win, I am sure it will go straight to your ego.

I suppose all thats left is for us to wait and see.

Just don't feed us any of the, "I'm not bringing on this challenge, i'm not instigating it, etc etc" when you know very well it takes two.

- Nexus

Freedom is what you do with what is done to you. - Sartres

07-30-2001, 08:57 PM
Antithetical? I think Wushu is antithetical to Tai Chi, but I don't necessarily think actual Shaolin arts are. In fact, I think TaiChi was influenced by Shaolin martial arts to a high degree.



"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

The Willow Sword
07-30-2001, 09:02 PM
I cant think of who it might have been though. i myself have never nor do i wish to participate in those functions. well Reemul we can agree on one thing,,the shaolin temple in china is modern wushu. OUr group went there and they did not see any kungfu there(i guess at the time). when they went to the schools around the temple and demonstrated our forms they were very impressed and the head instructor at one of thier schools preceded to demonstrate a TRADITIONAL form to us and it was so similar to our forms(dont know which one though) the group ALSO went to chen villiage and demonstrated OUR chen style taichi. they demonstarted thiers and a dialogue began between us and them for the similarities were there and respect was given and received from both sides. This has ALWAYS been the case of our school going to china in recent years and meeting with these people and having GOOD relations with them and respect for what we are continuing in a FREE society. I would imagine that if they were so bent on trashing us like ALLOF YOU DO then we would get laughed out of the country or better yet
told right to our face that we were frauds. hey its thier country and they run the show. So if the people in chen villiage respect us and think that what we are doing is REAL and legitamate as well as the instructors from the surrounding area of the shaolin temple,,THen why cant ALL OF YOU do the same? since all of you seem to follow what they apparently teach or are with teachers who learned from disciples there... Why do some folks bring up GM sins Brother? as if that has ANYTHING TO DO WITH WHAT IS BEING PASSED ON TO US. WHATEVER RELATIONSHIP that is between the brothers is BETWEEN THE BROTHERS AND NONE OF OUR GD BUISINESS!!!!!! So i state again, What we do is SHAOLIN_DO KUNGFU<<WE HAVE A DIRECT LINEAGE TO SOUTHERN SHAOLIN TEMPLE IN FUJIAN<<OUR GRANDMASTERIS SIN KWANG THE' HIS GRANDMASTER WAS IE CHANG MING AND MASTER IE"S GRANDMASTER WAS SU KONG TAI JIN_(who suffered from a disease called hypertrichosis languinosa) we may LOOK japanese and we may DRESS japanese but we are NOT A JAPANESE SCHOOL(no disrespect to JMA) WE ARE A MODERN SHAOLIN SCHOOL THAT CATERS TO EVERYONE. GI ARE WHAT PEOPLE KNOW SO THATS WHAT THEY WEAR. Whether you think that it si going against tradition or not is of no concern to us... you guys want to wear silk pajama uniforms and do wushu then that is what you are going to do. WE ARE A SCHOOL OF TRADITIONAL COMBAT SHAOLIN FORMS.
No robes and shaved heads either.
Come november WE Will SEE WHAT IS CRAP IS WHAT IS NOT. hopefully what reemul does is not crap and hopefully afterwards reemul will recant what he thought was crap but never stayed in it long enough to REALIZE THAT WHAT WE TEACH IS NOT CRAP OR FAKE.
Many respects,,Willow SWord

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-30-2001, 09:26 PM
Reemul, would you mind giving me your email so that I can send you some information about location that WS has sent me?

You can either post it here, or you can Submit News at www.kenpoworld.com (http://www.kenpoworld.com) and I'll read it from there. I won't give it out to anyone, including WS.


If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

07-30-2001, 11:22 PM
Check my profile, I just updated it. I think I already posted my email in one of my posts.

07-30-2001, 11:57 PM
If you really don't want this intended challenge to go through then take it up with the one who is bent on issuing it. I'm not the one threatining to go to another State and "Teach this kid a lesson". I'm not the one spouting off about how Willow needs to bring a sideman in case he needs to be picked up afterwards. Granted my opinion of his system is not very good, and granted I'm very blunt and politically incorrect, and granted my humor is stinging and more often than not misunderstood, but it is who I am. I don't believe in sidestepping issues or dancing around the them with some psuedo philosophical rhetoric. I not looking for acceptance from anyone here. As for being a disgrace to my instructor, thats for him to decide. As for my ego, whether it be a tournament or a challenge match, its just another training session to me.

What I find funny is up until now, whenever my comments sparked animosity from members the response was that I was all talk or that I would never respond in such a manner if I were face to face with somone. Now all of sudden, standing by my convictions is deplorable. To each, his own I guess.

07-31-2001, 01:34 AM
Couldn't we do this before October. That's when i'm gonna be moving to Baltimore and I dun wanna miss this hehe.

The Willow Sword
07-31-2001, 02:48 AM
Austin is where i have resided for the past 20 yrs now,,and i will ALWAYS RETURN THERE TO GET MORE INSTRUCTION FROM MY SIFU. i was planning on being there in november anyway,,so dont feel too flattered,,im not travelling all the way here to there for YOU. YOU in fact are just a side project to my real intent for being there.
Many respects,,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

07-31-2001, 05:34 AM
My point was made regardless.

08-01-2001, 04:12 PM

08-06-2001, 10:50 PM
If you two can settle on a more firm date I have the opportunity to get a nice private location that can also have spectators. As well as a couple of EMTs. Just to be on the safe side.

Remember, the winner gets cookies.


If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

08-06-2001, 10:55 PM
It's the GM about to go all "Golden Cockroaches" on Mr. Chekov!

Grandmaster (http://www.trekconnection.com/Picture_Pages/ST_2/pictures/kahn/kahn_st2_02.jpg)


"To the extreme!"

08-07-2001, 06:43 AM
hey let me know when this is going on, i'm getting a book on pp fighting tommorow and will try to knock you out (i will fail of course ;) ) for the free lunch while i'm down there.

Fish of Fury
08-07-2001, 08:37 AM
****, JWT
you're handing out free food right, left and centre!
you're making me hungry...i'm gonna have to book a flight over if this keeps up :)

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"