View Full Version : Shaolin Abbot is an *******!

Poisoned Dharma
08-21-2000, 08:55 PM
Please come to rescue the martial monks and the folks at the Shaolin Temple!!! Shi Yongxin, the evil mobster, did so many bad things to the people! ------ Now it is time to disclose who this Shi Yongyin is behind the Abbot title. Shi Yongyin, who got the title of General Abbot last year, had no mercy in his heart, rather, he is a wolf that lives on human flesh. Originally came from Anhui province in 1984, Shi Yongxin forged the will of Abbot Shi Xingzheng before his death, and became the head of SHAOLIN ADMINISTRATION COMMITTEE to manage the Temple. With the proceeds from Temple admission tickets and the donation from the congregation, he bought the position of CONGRESSMAN. He did all he could to raise chaos at the Temple. He spread the words that Suxi, the most respected 30th generation master, should not compete with him for the General Abbot position. The Abbot title is his. Suxi and him, only one can exist. Before the 1500 anniversary convention in 1995, he plotted and had two monks killed at the Grand Hall (of the Temple) by his clans. He was also responsible for the bombing at the Talin (the tomb where all the Abbots were buried). Afterwards, he framed the master of martial monk Shi Deyang (disciple of Suxi) and had him put in prison.

Shi Yongxin had his own clan at the Temple, formed of his relatives, brothers and people from his hometown. Pretending to be "monks", they formed a "Charity Foundation", where all the donations are controlled by his brothers. With the title of congressman and Abbot of the Temple, he deceived people inside and outside China, and gathered tremendous amount of money. According to people close to him, he once said "{You could} do whatever that makes money. I will be (your} backup. Don't even be afraid of the government. What are we afraid of when those government officials take bribes?" Back in February 2000, Shi claimed that "The admission ticket proceeds will go to us from May. Those high-rank officials will be under our control if we spend enough money on them. I don't care about those local (low rank) officials now. I want all the people and organizations close (to the Temple) move out of my territory. They will never get anything out of my rice bowl. They should not be allowed to purchase any property (house) in this area (Temple). I will meet some high rank officials from Henan province lately to talk about this issue, no problem, just some money!"

Although his official identification is a monk, he did get married and had children (child) after becoming a monk. He also owns luxury house(s), and he takes luxury Mercedes everywhere he goes. He has two luxury houses in the city of Zhengzhou and mistress(es) in the houses.

Who do you think are supporting all these expenses? Let's think about it.

He has stolen so much money to put into his own pocket that the finance/account management at the Temple is completely a mess. It is all up to him to manipulate (the accounts). He even stopped the government auditing, using his congressman title. As early as in 1997, before he became the Abbot, he had told some monks "If you entrust me to be the Abbot, I will bring the Temple to what it was like before the Liberation (1949). We should always remember to set up good relationship with some highlights in the central government. (Hu xx from the central government comes from his hometown). (Translator: this hometown thing is a big deal in China, they tend to have much closer relationships). Nowadays, those officials will always speak on your behalf if you can share the benefit with them. In the future, we will have all the proceeds of the admission tickets and we shall not give it to the government or the local people. Starting from September 1, 00, all the proceeds from the admission ticket, RMB 42.00 Yuan (in equivalent of $5) each ticket, will be under his control. (We are talking about several millions of tourists every year). Before Shi Yongxin takes this over, the Temple will get RMB 8.00 out of the 42.00 as subsidies from the government. What he is planning to do will cut the financial resources of Defeng and Shaolin for the purpose of maintenance, construction and rehabilitation. Shaolin Temple was maintained by the government. The local people say, "It is the government's investment, proceeds from the admission ticket should belong to the government!"

Shi Yongxin did everything to his own will, he should be responsible for so many damages to the Temple due to blind tearing -downs and reconstruction. This Shaolin Abbot Shi Yongxin, signed an agreement with Hong Kong World xx Committee and Hong Kong xx Development Ltd for them to invest huge amount of money to build Shaolin Big Bell. We haven't even seen the shadow of the Big Bell when he started to ask for more money from the congregation in the name of Shaolin Big Bell. He will even build a Shaolin Temple in Hong Kong in collusion with Hong Kong xxx, in order to extort more money. The local people are irritated, but they dare not say anything. Shi Yongxin said: " Dare anyone challenge me? I can crush you with money notes!

Now he started his hidden agenda, he bought off the government, and set up a "Shaolin Temple Central Moving Authority". He started his agenda to tear down all the buildings around the Temple, from the peasants' houses, local stores, to local martial schools. Thousands of people became homeless, without any compensation, or a place for them to stay temporarily. Many villagers had to pay to stay at local motels. Many three generation families cried and wailed. Old people got down on their knees in front of the Temple, begging the government to do something! Tens of millions dollars worth of houses and lands were taken away from them. They had no other solution but to fight with the Abbot at the cost of their lives. There was demonstration at the Temple in the past couple of days, they want to see Shi Yongxin, otherwise they threaten to tear down the Temple. For the fourth time in history, the Temple would be burnt, because of this evil Abbot!!! People cursed Shi Yongxin to be hit by the thunder, hit by car!!! One can find many fliers exposing Shi Yongxin's evil deeds at the street, or at the entrance of the Henan Government Building!

Reaction from the local society: As this case occurs, it arouses intense reaction from local people. Everyday, there are thousands of people clamoring for justice at Dengfeng Government and Henan Government. People signed their names, and preparing to sue him in Beijing! This case irritated all the people that were ever bullied by Shi Yongxin and his clan. After August 20, all the houses are supposed to be torn down, policemen will be on duty, no pictures or videos are allowed. The Power Bureau will cut electricity. Commerce Bureau will invalidate all business permit. Water Bureau will stop water supply. Tens of thousands of people gathered at the gate of the Temple, getting down on their knees, stopping the car (with officials sitting inside), struggling at the stake of their lives. Above is the truth of Shi Yongxin case. We urge the local government and people to pay special attention to this issue, see through Shi Yongxin's evil plot. We can never make what he, a fake monk that knows no Kong Fu or Buddhism, that is only good at deceiving people and government, creating chaos among fellow monks and local people, wants to happen, ever. (Shi Yongxin escaped from the Temple on August 5. No news about him till now. He dares not show up before the angry people).

Justice will win! Let the real Shi Yongxin show up! Let the sunshine enlighten everyone's heart! We strongly urge media to disclose this case!!! Reporters from CCTV and Xinhua News Agency have arrived at the Temple. We won't allow Zhengzhou News and Zhengzhou Commercial Radio Station to distort the truth. They are bought by Shi Yongxin.

Please reply ASAP! Please come to Shaolin Temple to rescue us! We will provide all the evidence! We have all the pictures, videos, and our signatures with fingerprints (as proof)."

08-21-2000, 09:20 PM
So what you are saying is that the fraud that was started with the presentation of 9-to-5 monks being "real" Shaolin monks (i.e. born of greed) has begat more greed; An idea born of fraud (a crime in itself) has yielded even more crime....

I am supposed to be amazed, disgusted, and outraged. Sorry, I was disgusted and outraged with the idea of monk posers in the first place. To borrow from a very old book, you sow the wind, you reap the whirlwind.

So...just shows that Karma is sort of working.

08-21-2000, 11:06 PM
Thats all very bad, but I'm not a Shaolin Monk, I don't give them money and there is nothing I can do about what this guy is up to. If he bothers you so much assaniate him or burn the temple. That seens to be the way people take care of things at shaolin.

Jaguar Wong
08-21-2000, 11:08 PM
The thread's title sounds more like rant, than a plea for help. ??? oh well.

Kung Lek
08-21-2000, 11:23 PM

...and , wow.
Fascinating. I've never seen such an accusation aimed at the head of the Shaolin Temple before in print or anywhere!

Being a westerner, I've not seen much regarding the truths of todays Shaolin Temple beyond what I have read in various periodical and seen on television presentations.
JW- this does sound like a rant for sure, but what an impassioned rant it is.

If it's fiction, its interesting that there is so much detailed indications of the events.



Kung Lek

08-21-2000, 11:44 PM
OKAY! HERE WE COME!...Wait a minute...what could WE do? You read THIS Forum and thought WE could help? You really should send this story to some other places too...hope you did!

08-21-2000, 11:52 PM
kill the ***got

08-22-2000, 12:52 AM
Easy guys...

Go check out the latest update on www.russbo.com (http://www.russbo.com) if you want to see some visuals on what Poisoned Dharma is talking about... apparently buildings around the temple and the wushu guan are being razed to the ground.

I don't have any opinions as of yet...


Art is limitation; the essence of any picture is the frame - G.K Chesterson

Fa Hui
08-22-2000, 01:09 AM
Yes, Tricky Fist is correct and so is Poisoned Dharma. According to the information at www.Russbo.com (http://www.Russbo.com) the temple is undergoing many negative changes according to the current Abbot. Greed seems to have been setting in. The Dharma there is being destroyed and this tends to happen quite a bit.


Fa Hui

Self-Thinking Follower
08-22-2000, 04:43 AM
Where is the lurking Qy, she/he always defends these imposters, Oh where , Oh where is my fake shaolin dog?

Oh where, Oh where is my Hemming gone?

I tried to tell you, way back when, but NOOOOOOOOO, fantasizers could'nt believe it.

There is NO unbroken Shaolin lineage, Song Shan is a historical site only, everything else is FAKE!, Its all $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

08-22-2000, 07:01 AM
hmm. sounds like run of the mill communist china to me. just as corrupt as western society. does it suck? yes, of course it does. does it surprise me? nope.
shaolin temple has become just another facet of the prc's money machine. the real kung fu is in the military anyways.

'instead of resting your legs, you should be standing up. instead of folding your hands you should be giving them out. instead of turning your back, you should be showing your face. why do you walk away?' --.hwm.

08-22-2000, 07:34 AM
I am here, do you have more questions for me STF?

BTW ElPaso is not REAL texas

Dragon Fist
08-22-2000, 05:39 PM
Hi,I would help if I could but I don,t live in china.I have much respect for the shaolin temple and the monks,but don't give up.

08-22-2000, 06:05 PM

what do you mean about El Paso...

Exactly how long have you been a Texan...and who appointed you keeper of the gates of Texas?

---A 4th generation (as in my family came here in the 1850's and 1870's) Texan (and I do NOT live anywhere near El Paso).

Self-Thinking Follower
08-23-2000, 03:45 AM
There goes one for you QY, by way of GLW but if you like, heres one from me, Do you still believe?

08-23-2000, 10:35 AM
The El Paso comment was not ment for you STF. Just a little joke for someone eles.

GLW you can't possibly think El Paso is Real Texas? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Poisoned Dharma
08-23-2000, 10:29 PM
August 22nd, A sucide protest was held by a kung fu
student of the Shaolin kung fu school,
Shaolin warrior monk Shi Yan-tsang's school.

protesting against the government's evacuation plan of
Shaolin village.
The student, believed in his 20s drank a full bottle of pesticide used
for killing pests in the office of the Dengfeng
City Athlets Committee after chanting slogans.He was
then sent to Dengfeng City Hospital and till now
(25th)still is in critcal condition.
The armed police had deployed more staff to block the
hospital's entrance so as to bar any media coverage of
the news. They are also trying to trace the protest
leaders to prevent them from taking further action.
All destruction action has been ordered to be held

Self-Thinking Follower
08-23-2000, 10:46 PM
August 24, news that five new surviving monks will escape bullets and spread shaolin accross the world, new shaolin finger sign, with the middle finger, of course, is being displayed. New slogan, down with self-thinking up with shaolin fantasy, replaces old Ching/Ming rivalry. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If true, I am sorry for the poor fool who tried to poison himself to save this school, its so sad to see life, thrown away over misguided love.

08-24-2000, 04:18 AM

what would be REAL Texas.

Come now, a state that takes 22 hours to drive across at 70 mph....from side to side or top to bottom, borders on Mexico, desert, prairies, rolling hills, canyons, swamps, that has been under 6 different flags over the last 500 years, and that was the only state besides Hawaii that was an independent nation before becoming part of the US...

What is true Texas? East Texas? Brownsville/Matamoros?, Hill Country (there are those who view the nouveau snootiness often found there as definitely anti-Texan), San Antonio, Presidio (****ed hot), Lubbock, Midland/Odessa, Gulf Coast, ....

That is the nice thing about Texas and Texans - the wide range of things and the fiercely independent streak along with the tendency to be a good neighbor (although over the last 10 or 15 years that aspect has changed a bit....).

El Paso has its own flavor as does San Antonio or Austin, Dallas...

Hell, there is even a major difference between Dallas and Fort Worth...and they are connected by the Turnpike and take less than an hour to go from downtown to downtown....with clear traffic...

08-24-2000, 04:47 AM
Those are VERY serious accusations you make!

If you were in the United States, I would tell you to contact the F.B.I. about it. Since you are in communist China, I have to say, "oh well, don't expect any help." A communist government isn't going to help you and ESPECIALLY not if they are making money from it.

I don't know why you are posting this here. There is absolutely NOTHING that any of US could do against a communist world power.

...And a suicide protest?! Geez....how incredibly stupid! I never could understand why monks and other people would hurt themselves to get someone's attention.
NEW FLASH for you....NO ONE gives a ****! I never understood hunger strikes and things like that. Do you think that I care if you starve yourself? I DON'T...and I'm a pretty religious and compassionate guy. Do you think that a communist government which killed civilians in Tienamen (sp?) Square is going to care?!
No!...they care less than I do. Not to mention the fact that China is over populated to the point that the government has instituted manditory population control measures (like limiting the number of children a family can have), they would actually be glad about the suicides. One less person around and one less monk to speak out against the government. Don't waste yourselves!


You would do better to take this complaint elsewhere...like Amnesty International. There is nothing we can do here.

Good Luck

"There is only ONE martial art"

Self-Thinking Follower
08-24-2000, 05:42 AM
Totallyfrozen, his poison does'nt come from China, it comes from New York and he thinks he is a monk. Just check out his profile, unless he's also a LIAR! Just one more point, notice that none of these pseudo monks operate in the NYC Chinatown area, the'yre always on the outskirts or in other neighborhoods. Lets "think" about that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gifNew chinese immigrants make it there but pseudo-shaolin is no where. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Poisoned Dharma
08-24-2000, 08:46 PM
self thinking follower,
stop talk **** and **** off from this thread...your words are so disgusting!

Sweaty Mantis
08-24-2000, 09:33 PM
Never ask a man if he's from Texas. If he is, he'll tell you. If he's not, you don't want to embarass him /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Self-Thinking Follower
08-25-2000, 12:19 AM
It's stop talk-ing, and I'm posting not talking, your mind must be poisoned! Is your occupation still a "monk"? /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

08-25-2000, 07:38 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Poisoned Dharma:
self thinking follower,
stop talk **** and **** off from this thread...your words are so disgusting![/quote]

OUCH! I think you just made my eyes bleed. I don't know much about Buddihsm or monks but I never imagined a monk with hateful venom like that.
Anyway, if you are a monk (which I doubt), take your story to the F.B.I. or to a political forum. This is for MA.

"There is only ONE martial art"

08-25-2000, 07:59 AM
When I am elected "King of The World" I will free Tibet and see to it that this guy is punished by doing hard labor. I'll make all the scientist get together and figure out how to make a teleportation device, a light saber, and 500 clones of Cindy Crawford to be raised for the next generation. In the mean time I think I'll make a mental note not to become a shaolin monk /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message has been edited by 8stepsifu (edited 08-25-2000).]

08-25-2000, 09:13 AM
This kind of sucks BIG time, because I'm going to shaolin wednesday Aug 30. I hope the cops over there don't take away my new video camera /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
And to all of you people who think Shaolin is fake or no good;
Who in the world is better?
Where can you find a better training enviroment?

[This message has been edited by lohan (edited 08-26-2000).]

Self-Thinking Follower
08-25-2000, 09:19 AM
World Famous "Gleasons GYM", they encourage any shaolin experts to visit and get in the ring with or without rules or equipment.
You can find them in the BROOKLYN, NEW YORK YELLOW PAGES. Martial artist of all kinds have tested their merits there. No need to train at Song Shan, just take pictures if they let you. Good Luck!

08-25-2000, 09:25 AM
It's me again. I just got an idea. Why don't we get David Carradine to help out at Shaolin?

Self-Thinking Follower
08-25-2000, 09:30 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

08-25-2000, 09:48 AM
I'm sure there are very good wushu teachers at shaolin. Too bad the cultural revolution slaughtered most of the good teachers and left a perminent scar on the martial arts. Shaolin was one of the best in it's day. Then the commies got ahold of it's tourist trap potential and now any school that teaches a traditional, complete style (training methods in tact) would be a better place to train. I recently read in an article that their lifestyle was grueling. Not getting fed enough is a symptom of poverty, not good martial arts.
I have lots of respect for traditional kung fu masters, I just think that most of them get the hell out of China as soon as they can. You don't see any Grandmasters outside China rushing to move back now do you?

I think we should trade China David Caradine and transport the Shaolin Temple to somewhere in the Appalatians. Better yet..the Vatican.

Dragon Warrior
08-25-2000, 11:21 AM
Anytime I see any of the monks perform anything, whether it be wushu or traditional, it is amazing. They are the best martial artist in the world. Training all day everyday. People love to talk crap about others, ecspecialy when they are as good as the monks.

Dragon Warrior
08-25-2000, 11:23 AM
yo who is the sifu at that school self thinking. I would like to go there

Self-Thinking Follower
08-25-2000, 08:24 PM
No sifu's at "Gleasons" only ex champs, coaches, trainers and a whole lot of angry, aggressive young men looking to turn that anger into prize fighting money. They've been fighting in the mean streets all their lives and love it. A great deal of talent exsist there. They enjoy "keeping it real".

08-16-2001, 03:10 PM
For what it is worth, I have heard that this abbot was placed into this position by the Communists and also he has no kung fu training. He is not a true abbot. Mr. Ching should know more about the situation since he travels to China so much.


08-16-2001, 03:19 PM
Don't really know if he is but I have heard from several martial arts circles that the man is a Communist and has no formal kung fu training. Since Mr. Ching has been to China so many times maybe he might be able to enlighten us with the truth as to what is going on in the Shaolin temple.


08-16-2001, 06:38 PM
Poisoned Dharma unless you know the Abbot personaly who are you to judge, who are any of us to judge anyone?

08-16-2001, 07:12 PM
I here from different sources that he is a Communist and has no formal training in kung fu. he is just a puppy for the Commies. Maybe Mr. Ching can fill us all in on what is going on over in China at the Shaolin Temple. He seems to always be traveling there.


08-16-2001, 07:17 PM
Shaolin -

You need to learn how to read. I did not judge the man. I just passed on what I had heard. If you want to believe it, fine. If not, that is okay.


08-16-2001, 07:50 PM
Never been much for formality, Damian...

I have met with Shi Yongxin and hopefully will be meeting with him again in a few weeks. I am planning to go out for the festival again.

Venerable Shi Yongxin was a graduate of Beijing Buddhist College (as are many of the abbots in PRC.) He does not specialize in Kungfu - His focus is Chan. He is the abbot of Shaolin Temple, and I have heard that he holds a political seat with the party, but since Shaolin Temple has always been a political force this is really unsurprizing given the nature of Buddhism in today's PRC. We often forget the magnitude of Shaolin Temple - one of the most visited in China now - and the impact that has on local community as well as the government's stance on Buddhism. If you want more, I did a cover story on Yongxin in our Shaolin Temple Collectors Edition last year.

Yongxin has taken a lot of criticism about the forced relocation, but this is a common practice in China - check out what's happening with Three Gorges Dam or just watch the award-winning movie Shower. Before Yongxin, the temple was caught between local Dengfeng Government (which actually collected all the money for entrance into the temple) and private business (which was all that gaudy tourists stuff people all complained about.) The relocation reduced all the privates. The government never can come out - China has been under totalitarian rule for over 2000 years - 10x the length of our democracy.

I haven't been back since the changes so I'll refrain from voicing an opinion until I see it myself. Personally, I loved the gaudy tourism. After being to many Buddhist holy sites, like Bodh Gaya and Deer Park, I had no expectations of finding Master Po. The lotus has to have muck to rise from. Also I had many friends amongst those tourist shops and I'll miss stopping by for tea. But I admire Yongxin's attempt to bring the Chan back to Shaolin. I'm eager to go back and see what has happened.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

08-17-2001, 01:06 AM
I don't know what to think. It is wrong kicking people out of their homes and all that, but it would be nice if Shaolin could return to a Buddhist temple with great martial training, and be somewhat peaceful. All those people you guys call "fake monks" are from the local schools around shaolin. The Abbot is kicking them out. Of course, the monks aren't very strict from what I've heard, but that doesn't mean they are fake. And I'm sure not all of them are money hungry. If they were, they'd come to America, get on the cover of magazines, befriend a famous rapper, etc. And this isn't about Communism, it's about one man's dream to return Shaolin to it's previous glory no matter what it takes. Maybe this is what Shaolin needs. And Gene, bring us back a good story...

08-17-2001, 03:14 AM
All this politics and principle is all well and good....but...

If the monks have better gong fu and can teach you a thing or two then why argue?

Gene is far better placed than I will ever be to comment on the real story. However, don't we all just want to learn better gong fu? the REAL shaolin temple was destroyed many many years ago. However, if what you are being tauaght is true to the ethics, principles and skills of the original temple then how is that bad?

We cant step back in time so lets use what we have got - Good or bad - And derive the best results that we can from it...

I don't think anyone in China who is in a position of public scrutiny could be anything other than political. It is the nature of the country. I think that you just have to accept that this is the case. Even if you don't agre with it.

"We had a thing to settle so I did him"
Tamai, 43, was quoted by Police as saying.

08-17-2001, 03:16 AM
Gene -

Are you going to China at the end of the month? Wouldn't you know it, Master Gray is also planning a trip the end of this month. I understand that he travels to China every two years. Hope everything turns out well for both of you while you are away.

If you do travel to China I wish you a safe trip.


08-17-2001, 06:16 PM
"Yongxin has taken a lot of criticism about the forced relocation, but this is a common practice in China - check out what's happening with Three Gorges Dam or just watch the award-winning movie Shower. ..The government never can come out - China has been under totalitarian rule for over 2000 years - 10x the length of our democracy."

So Gene, this is how "communism works for China"?
This is the rule of warlords and greedy despots.
Your "abbot" is nothing less and you admit so - a party member, unskilled and not knowledgeable in Wushu. You admire him like you admire Mao , for being ruthless and greedy and having the power to destroy others.
I don't think anyone should look to you for truth about what is happening there. You have a openly stated political and personal alliance with the Abbot. If anyone would be the foreign representative of the "Mininstry of Truth(propaganda)" of Shaolin and the PRC it would be you.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-17-2001, 10:19 PM
DGF: I could be wrong, but wasn't his trip in '99 his first to China? I was there when he made that trip, in fact, I was there when he shot the pictures for that rather negative IKF article (ask him about htat if you get the chance, it was a funny story.) I also helped him get a good deal on some swords.
He's probably coming out for the festival - that will be cool to see him there again. I look forward to that. He should be careful though, because his article did make enemies that could make his trip challenging. You should check that earlier post from Heming to Brian.

sf: I am a layman disciple of Shaolin, so of course I have an allegience to my temple and it's abbot. That's an odd accusation since I fully confess to it and anyone who has read me knows it.
I wouldn't say I admire Yongxin because to be honest, I don't know him very well yet. It's not like he's my buddy, the abbot. I certainly respect his authority, just like I respect the authority of George W. Bush, Sun Tzu or Macheivelli. If you have no respect for authority like that, then you've probably never been on the receiving end of it yet. That teaches respect faster than anything.
The relocation is sad but I have yet to denounce Shaolin for it, and although the abbot certainly had his hand in it, I am still unwilling to make him the sole scapegoat for the suffering. Before I pass such any judgement, I need to see the outcome, and that may be a few years in the making. However my point about China stands - It has been ruled by an iron hand for so long that change will be slow. Communism was a reaction to this totalitarian rule and while far from perfect (what government is?) it works for China now. We can only hope that China continues to progress. Mao's ultimate goal for PRC was democracy.

I love Orwell, so your "ministry of truth" comment is doubleplusgood. I will certainly admit that I spin things with a positive vibration. Since there is so much negativity in CMA, I often find myself in the role of the point of yin in the yang. It's about balance.

And I totally agree that no one should look for truth in me. Hear that everyone? Don't look for truth in me. Nothing would disappoint me more. Look for truth in yourself.

So stumble, what will YOU say to Julia after room 101?

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

08-18-2001, 12:39 PM
"Communism was a reaction to this totalitarian rule and while far from perfect (what government is?) it works for China now. We can only hope that China continues to progress. Mao's ultimate goal for PRC was democracy."
Communism IS a totalitarian dictatorship. It only "works" at the point of a gun, nobody in China has any choice about it. You will see what really "works" when the statues of Mao are in the warehouses like Stalin's are in Russia.
Mao's ultimate goal was su[preme power for himself. He achieved this. He was a stalinist. Please point out where in the CCP it is written that they want democcracry. Of course in the languague of newspeak, they have democracy, they have multiple parties. Of course they are all controlled by the CCP.If he had wanted democracy he would have allowed the existence of other political parties. That is total anathema to communism.
Originally pepole thought that communism maent freedom, htey had no idea it meant totalitarian slavery. Nothing of orignial communist ideals remain. Because power is absolute the ideals can be constantly spouted and proclaimed but never lived up to because propaganda and mind control is complete, there is no competiton in the information market. Now the only purpose of Communism is to maintain totalitarian control, that is fotr the boss to remain the boss no matter what the price is to others.
Let me be clear, not only would i say people should not look for truth in what you say they should look for your falsity because you are an admitted propagandist with a personal interest at stake.
Saying that people deserve to be enslaved because their ancestors were enslaved is hardly positive and it is racist.
You have paid for a fantasy, that of being a follower of a "shaolin monk", essentially the comic book fantasy of a child. Maintaining the propaganda and myths of communism is damaging to kungfu and the lives of real human beings.

"Without water there would be no fish"

[This message was edited by stumblefist on 08-19-01 at 03:49 AM.]

08-18-2001, 12:47 PM
I missed that somewhere.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-18-2001, 06:14 PM
Oh, i get it, Orwell's julia.
Well i'll give you my answer a lttle later, but i think i would suprise you gene. After all i LIVE like a martial artist, not pay for the fantasy. When you eat bitter you develop a taste for it.
I am not the one who took the cable car up to Jin Ding it was you and your lazy "master". And i don't complain about the "uncomfortable" train rides, i can't get enough of them.
I'm not saying i can't be broken, many good men have, especially in Vietnam.
But why are you asking me this? Are you using this as an excuse for the choices you have made. We always have a choice.
Winston just didn't get a chance to recover.
I would say "they forced me and declare my love and not to believe their lies or my own that i am forced to make" and i would never believe the situation totally hopeless. I believe free men will eventually triumph.
I do have some morality you know, i am not mainland chinese born and cultured.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-19-2001, 02:21 AM
(Note, I don't want to seem as though I'm crassly only paying attention to this in as much as it effects me. It's just such a, shall I say, sketchy, issue I'm not sure what my stance is on it.)

Since Shi Yongxing is Shi Goulin's master, who is in turn, my master, I have to wonder what, if anything, this says about Shi Goulin. I know next to nothing about the disciple/master relationship at Shaolin itself. Is it possible that Shi Goulin was Shi Yongxing's Chan student but not his martial pupel?

I'm very split on this matter being as I've never witnessed anything but the utmost devotion and well, Buddhist behavior from Shi Goulin. Also his kung fu and qigong are indisputably amazing. I hate to think that he had a 'flawed' teacher, although I do have the habit of being blind to that which I don't want to see.

I agree that Shaolin should be a less touristy institution and it would be nice if there weren't so many satallite schools surrounding it but I can't help and think that it's an attribute of the situation. Also as to the fact that forced relocation is common in China, I don't think that makes it 'right.' If the abbot during the cultural revolution saw that random assasinations were common it wouldn't make it ok for him to do it. Shi Yongxing is above all a religious leader, that is something which should transcend all national barriers.

Also, as to Shi Yongxing's not knowing any martial arts, that's utterly irrelevent. Not all monks know martial arts. Shaolin isn't a martial arts school, it's a temple and religious center. Kung Fu was developed at Shaolin to function as a form of active meditation, it's just another technique in meditation. Shi Yongxing needent know a **** thing about kung fu and it in no way reflects his status as a religious figure.

08-19-2001, 03:44 AM
Gene I'm not pointing figers at anyone nor I believe everything I hear but it has been mentioned before that the current abbot tried to murder another monk who was going to supposedly be choesn as the next abbot and that the other monk had fled to europe.Now my knowledge on this isn't good but these are some scandalous accuasations.

"Always be ready"

08-19-2001, 07:24 PM
stumble: If you don't complain about uncomfortable train rides, why bother complaining about me? I'm not forcing you to ride my train, but I'm grateful that you have and keep continuing to. Better to have a complaining rider than none at all...
My Orwell reference was to pull our discussion up a literary notch. If we follow your original analogy, what is your opinion on the Malabar Front?

inpho: Have we met? Where you with Guolin when I visited him earlier in the year? Are you still there? Let's pick up this discussion on the Who has trained with a Shaolin Monk thread - I'm curious how things are going without Hengxin.

northernmantis: There are a lot of nasty rumors spread about Yongxin. In America, you are innocent until proven guilty. In China, they might just shoot you then charge your family for the bullet. In either case, rumors remain unproven until that critical moment...

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

08-19-2001, 10:24 PM
I think the point of that section of 1984 was not that they forced him to lie or to renounce something or someone to avoid torture. The point was that they put him in a situation that was so horrible to him that he actually genuinely preferred that they put Julia in that situation than him. It's a very dark idea, very different from the old "confess or you'll be tortured" thing. The point being made is that sometimes finding out what your priorities *really* are can be a disturbing experience.

08-20-2001, 02:18 AM
Yes, I totally agree. That's what's so chilling about 1984, it has a brutally honest ending on the human level. But Orwell got communism way wrong, at least as far as China. It's not like big brother and being watched by hidden cameras. It's not spy stuff at all, there isn't the technology to back it there. It's more like posse mentality. Cross the community and you'll end up lynched.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

08-20-2001, 06:49 AM
I never said I tottaly agreed.They did make me rasie an eybrow or two.

"Always be ready"

08-20-2001, 07:44 AM
"stumble: If you don't complain about uncomfortable train rides, why bother complaining about me?"
I am not complaining about you, i am arguing against your arguments. That is part of "discussion". I don't just not complain, i enjoy eating bitter, practice up a few more years and you might get it.
I said:
"The communist part keeps Wushu artifically alive for its own purposes of fostering amoung which are fostering nationalism and hatred of other peoples and countries.
"As for your last paragraph, I'm not sure what your getting at exactly.... "hatred of other people's" Gene Ching
That is the "Malabar Front" Gene. Actually you are standing on it. You see the nationalism in China is not just simple pride. Ask any foreigner living in Beijing, it is like living with rabid dogs. The CCP uses nationalism, the Games etc to foster hatred and racism against other countries. While they say no to meedle in their own affairs, they have no trouble making other countries their affair.
Communism NEEDS to have an Enemy. If they didn't choose AMerica they would choose someone else.
There is no room for internal political dissent of outlet, the way to deflect attention away from the ineptitude and corruption of the CCP is to have an external enemy. So the games and Wushu are a political weapon externally and internally.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-20-2001, 01:37 PM
"Yes, I totally agree. That's what's so chilling about 1984, it has a brutally honest ending on the human level."

I don't agree, i think the ending was contrived.
The human level is a lot stronger than Orwell knew. Very few people would volunteer the words "Do it to"... somebody else. Most people would have to be fed those words and programmed into them.

Truth is that although theoretically everyone can be broken, many, many have died stubbornly in the torture or mind-control room refusing to say or betray or just preferring not to exist than give in. So perhaps that theory is not so correct.
If Julia said to me afterward, "i betrayed you", i would say, i know, so did i, forget it it wasn't our fault and i would hug her. Human desire to triumph and be free is indefatigable.
As for myself, i have been in Room 101, i am the product of extreme experience.

"But Orwell got communism way wrong, at least as far as China. It's not like big brother and being watched by hidden cameras. It's not spy stuff at all, there isn't the technology to back it there."

Wrong, big brother is watching you in China, it is just slow laborious and beaurocratic and often just done on need-to-do-basis. But the slowness doesn't matter because you are not going anywhere, China is a vast prison camp.
... and a terrible trend starting, the technology to back it is now becoming available, and cheap, and plentiful and easy to install... the near-future is wide open to any possibility.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-20-2001, 03:02 PM
electronik traking price tags behind the earlobe
of all babies???.

dont think pleasant its agianst the clockwork
not only do they print your mind they trick you into thinking freedom is real and to stand up agianst them
so they can weed out those genetics with heart so they may destroy
and only build good little robot monkeys....

whothahell is they isnt it us?? or them!!...ohno

tis a trip of a thought tho

but thats not communism thats called new age tactikal mafia gungfu with the correct spelling and all

08-20-2001, 05:15 PM
"not only do they print your mind they trick you into thinking freedom is real and to stand up agianst them
so they can weed out those genetics with heart so they may destroy
and only build good little robot monkeys...."
Thanks for the warning Diego, i'll keep my eyes open for when they come to weed me out.

I wonder if you're showing signs of some stress there. Maybe it's time to kick back with a few pina-coladas and burritos. I'm sure enjoying the 1950 hamburgers, banana pancakes and local brew,
kicking back here in Guilin county.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-20-2001, 06:34 PM

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

08-20-2001, 11:22 PM


harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

08-21-2001, 07:49 AM
"stumble, what makes you happy?
Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher"

Therein lies your problem Gene. I am quite happy and i enjoy countering your arguments and propaganda. It is good intellectual exercise. You are far too soft. More like a pretend-martial artist. As i said before, not only do i not complain, but i enjoy eating bitter. That's a development from ... martial arts.
You cannot have positive solutions until you accept and face up to the negative, and learn to enjoy the whold process.

If you cannot accept and face up to negative emotions and negative circumstances in life then you will lead a superficial existence.
Moreover when you learn to ENJOY your negative emotions then your personal growth will really take off and your feelings will be that much more wholistic and you will enjoy the positive emotions that much more. And when you reach that stage you will realize you can still declare your love for Julia on the Park Bench. Following your restrictive philosophy, it seems you end up in despair and "the chiling side".
I probably enjoy life a great deal more than you do.
(And i do have lots and lots of sexual pleasure Mr. bride-no-hair). If you come to Chna i'll show you around the barbershops if you want, so long as you don't tell nmy girlfriend.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-21-2001, 06:54 PM
Sorry stumble, you just sound so unhappy. But if your happy, that's cool. That actually makes me happy too, but forgive me if I'm more curt than you - I can't spend too much time on the fourms or I'll go blind.

Eating bitter doesn't mean that'a all you have to eat. After all, what would life be without soy sauce and hot peppers? Perhaps I read you wrong, but your writing styles is so inflammatory. That's why bride comments on your sexual status. You sound pent up. But if you happy, well, cool.

As for me, I wish I was softer. As I've said before (in print no less) I'm the real 'fake' monk. I've copped to that many times. Man, I have a reputation to uphold. I hate eating bitter - when I was a kid, I dreaded the night mom made bittermelon. But I'm glad you like it. You can have my share.

Actually I don't think anyone should enjoy negative emotions, and I suppose the Buddhist response would be that you shouldn't enjoy positive emotions either. Balance is about appropriate response to the moment. Enjoying negativity is not appropriate. One shouldn't hide from it certainly, but enjoy it? That's not right.

As for our Orwell analogy (and this has been my favorite part) I think you read it wrong. Winston was totally broken in the end. That was the whole point. It was love of Big Brother. But consider this - If I am the Ministry of Truth, you must be the Ministry of Peace (creating the illusion of a war where ther isn't one.) Before we go on, we need to find love and plenty....

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

08-22-2001, 07:49 AM
"Actually I don't think anyone should enjoy negative emotions, and I suppose the Buddhist response would be that you shouldn't enjoy positive emotions either."
You see, you are just wondering, you don't KNOW anything. Emotions are LIFE. You have learned to be dead. When you learn to enjoy negative emotions you will really love life. Loving your negative emotions is to be fully accepting and loving life.
I know you can't "get" it. You are not the only one.
BTW Budddhism isn't about shouldn'ts it's about enlightenment and acceptance.

"As for our Orwell analogy (and this has been my favorite part) I think you read it wrong. Winston was totally broken in the end. That was the whole point."
No, i didn't read it wrong. I told you Orwell's ending was contrived. The whole point is you needn't be broken, I wasn't, many of us are not, and if we are, we can all recover and the human spirit is forever excelsior.
The point is i believe humand beings can have the courage to maintain their integrity.
Orwell is not the god of social/psych reality. Some of his characters are still fighting back against him.

"But consider this - If I am the Ministry of Truth, you must be the Ministry of Peace (creating the illusion of a war where ther isn't one.)"
No, I am not in the Book. But i think both those 2 abbots you know are greedy snouts and have hurt a lot of people. That's no illusion. Your job is the cover-up. Not war, just oppression.
Breaking people is not chilling. It is an obvious enemy and can be resisted. Masses being blindly manipulated, now thats chilling. Enjoy your work!

"Before we go on, we need to find love and plenty...."
Can't find that without integrity and grit.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-22-2001, 01:01 PM
"Sorry stumble, you just sound so unhappy. But if your happy, that's cool."

Now i have the distinct impression that my postings are making you UNHAPPY else why should you be so "worried" about my unhappiness.
I'm happy that you are unhappy.

Anyway calling me or casting doubt on my happiness is STILL just an Ad Hominem.It is an "attack on the person" rather than honestly countering a person's arguments or presenting a point of view. It means you have "already lost" as per "highlander" or simply means you lost.

I try to make my argumentation as honest as possible to the best of my knowlege. So when i sign on again, i do genuinely worry... "Will i get trounced in logical argument? Can i be exposed as folish?" So far i am just vindicated.
Argumentation is somewhat ... somewhat.. like fighting... you must enjoy doing it. If you don't enjoy doing it, you are in the wrong game.

"Eating bitter doesn't mean that'a all you have to eat."
Absolutely true, on occassion i do enjoy my Hunan frog, Guangdong BBQ pork buns and the special sauce on the Beijing Cold Noodles.
But doing Martial Arts is not just putting up with bitter you have to love it or you cannot love the ART. It puts you into a deeper contact with life. Tatamis,porcelain pillows; hot, sweaty dirty trains,learn to love them and you'll see more, hear more and feel more comfortable.

"but your writing styles is so inflammatory."
That means effective and without swear-words and attempting to insult and manipulations etc.

"Enjoying negativity is not appropriate. One shouldn't hide from it certainly, but enjoy it? That's not right."
They told you that in school, right? There's a slight difference here bewteen listening to what SOUNDS right and doing and experiencing.
Negativity and negative emotions are different things. If you are sad you have no choice, it is a human process, turn on to it and stop resisting yourself. You'll find that in both buddhismand Taoism.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-22-2001, 04:15 PM
You are a very concerned and conscientious person and I understand you but everyday isn't a bowl of cherries and there is an abundance of evil and underhanded goings on that,even, if we bring to the attention of people who can do something about a situation, i.e.the bad abbot, nothing will be done and, my Kung Fu Brother,the name of the game is called POLITICS. The reason nothing will be done is because everyone is involved in some way or another. So you need to let go and take one day at a time and hope for the best. Hopefully, the abbot will croak but someone like him will take his place and we start all over again. Peace my Brother.


08-22-2001, 05:38 PM
Thanks Damian
I agree. It's gotten to me.
Time to mellow out.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-22-2001, 07:49 PM
ok point-for-point, in order.

On Buddhism: I have not reached the level of extinction. So yes, I am wondering. You don't sound like you've reached nirvana either. If loving negative is important, what happens to hate? Isn't that an important emotion to acknowledge? Where does this put a figure like Yasutani Roshi?

Orwell: Orwell was about oppression of the human spirit and the oppressors win. Contrived or not, that's how the book ended.

Ministry of Peace: The mainland is your Malabar Front. You are as much minipax ans I am minitrue. But this is just for the arguments.

Love and Plenty: These are the other ministries of 1984. They can be found in the first few pages of that book. The only integrity and grit that is needed is to go down to the bookstore...

post two:
I was becoming unhappy about your unhappiness. As they taught me at Bodh Gaya -May all beings be happy. But now that your happy about my unhappiness, I'm happy that your happy.

My point about your happiness is just to get at the source of your arguments. If you truly believe all you post with the same fervor, there is certainly something you could do about it that is more productive then knocking my posts. Maybe you are involved politically in the real world - I don't know. Here in the forum world, I'm such a small fish. If we are disussing this for the exercise, sort of and iron-sharpen-iron thing, well, then that gives it a more intellectual tone. I'm just trying to read the emotion between your lines - so much of that is lost through our inadequate writing that I would give you the benefit of the doubt.

I'm not sure I agree about arguing for arguments sake, although you are right that this is a lot of what the forum is about. There are so many good fights to fight - ones that can be won or lost - that something as fleeting as forum posts seems to be the wrong place to spend too much energy. If this is all this is about, find another sparring partner for now. Perhaps we can spar more later, but I'm a little busy right now.

As for eating bitter - you don't have to love it. You just have to do it. If its really that bitter, you don't have the bandwidth for love. It's just do.

I do find your posts insulting and manipulative. You accuse me of all sort so atrocities. Maybe it's me. Any neutral parties wish to comment?

And lastly, you lost me on your last point. Enjoying negativity AND negative emotions is not right. You shouldn't hide OR resist, but you shouldn't enjoy. That's just unhealthy.

Gene Ching
Asst. Publisher
Kungfu Qigong Magazine & www.KUNGFUmagazine.com (http://www.KUNGFUmagazine.com)

Crimson Phoenix
08-22-2001, 11:13 PM
Dang, like, I was there in the "Gene I'm offended threat", and these two were having a brawl here behind my back :D

08-23-2001, 05:32 AM
For what it's worth, I think you are OK. I don't completely agree with what stumble had to say, but I think he is OK too. :)

What we do in life echoes in Eternity

08-23-2001, 09:10 AM
A little late in the game, but I do think I need to interject something about the ending of 1984. Stumble, you and I and Gene and others here may have tasted enough bitter to withstand the "rat helmet". However, in this day and age, can you honestly tell me that the "average Joe (or Jane)" wouldn't sell you or me down the river quick as a flash when confronted with the threat of their worst fear?

Maybe you have enough faith in humanity to believe that, but personally, I wouldn't bet my next paycheck on it. More and more these days, I think I perceive people's morality becoming more and more selective...and that's proably my fallacy. But it still scares me sometimes.


We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

08-23-2001, 11:49 PM
stumblefish, perhaps without smothering us in biasness, you can shed some light on how the actual wu shu (martial arts) community of songshan feels about the state of communism today, and depending, if there is a strong shaolin/resistance connection as in the historical past. are the monks and other spiritual leaders there involved in anykind of social democratic groups?
and uhh, thats ms. and i think i would take your offer to go get a trim at the barber, so long as she looks like maggie cheung? ;}

harmonize the forces of heaven, earth, and hell.

08-25-2001, 04:16 AM
Stumblefist, good luck on removing yourself from the Dark Side.

I hope that your sifu embraces you and teaches you that hatred is not the answer.

08-26-2001, 07:37 AM
Hello Huang,
Yes, well, i hope you too can run to your nearest Catholic Priest and be exorcised from the deep dark demons which are troubling you.
(now imagine a symbol representing sarcasm is posted here just in case you don't get it).
Perhaps when you have time you might more clearly state what is your beef. I do seem to remember before in some other posts you seemed to be racially "sensitive" and didn't like me exposing problems racial problems in the world of martial arts.
Perhaps you might tell me what is your experience with Evil and Hate? When i hear talk like this, it is usually from an "avoider" someone with little emotional experience. Just want everything somehhow to be "good".
How do you fell about Evil? Do you hate evil or love evil?. Do you hate the human function of hate or do you love hate? Do you see a difference between hate-crimes and hate-functioning?
If you love something strongly you must hate what destroys it, mustn't you? Do you understand how it works or do you just not feel anything?
I think you are confused.Hate and love are emotions and are useful for human beings to use in their lives. Good and Evil are constructive or destroying forces. Evil is mostly the result of NOT feeling.
I would say you probably can't think for yourself and need somebody in AUTHORITY to tell you the answers... let's see... a sifu? , yes that's it a SIFU will tell you the TRUTH. Isn't it wonderful to be absolved of the responsiblility of thinking for oneself?
If i expose or reveal evil, i am not the evil, i am only the insightful revealer. I am not resposnible for the unaware inheritance of racism in thought and culture, i just expose it. That and many other things.
But then, this is politics, isn't it? i.e. another ad hominenem. Attack stumblefist's character to deflect attention from what he is saying.
If you can figure out more clearly what's bugging you , don't hesitate to let me know.

08-26-2001, 05:07 PM
One must learn RESPECT before even THINKING about embarking on the study of martial arts, stumblefist.

Without respect, you can't learn the first thing about martial arts. YOU are the prime example of this.

08-26-2001, 06:02 PM
No Huang, You have to earn MY respect first and you haven't yet.
If you want to do that you must present some rational coherent argument about something.
There is no clear proof that YOU respect the martial arts or have in fact learned any. I counter your claim. I say that you are probably following fakes and phonies and racism and you do not follow the true martial ways of courage, honesty and effort. I freely admit to disrespecting fakes, phonies, liars, cheats, bullies, cowards and racists. Are you in one of those groups?
Are you able to articulate more clearly what is bugging you? You are very unclear and incoherent.
Allow me to articulate for you: You are saying because you don't like my point of view and probably wish to protect your ethnic attachments (racism - must be that? did i hit it?)therefore i don't respect martial arts and don't know any.
That is very irrational. But i think you are probably used to living irrationaly. Probably used to blindly following authority without discrimination.
I dispute your claim that you are the guardian as to what is the definition of "martial arts".
Whatever it is that you are trying to protect probably doesn't deserve respect. My words are the cold light of day and they will reveal the worms that you wish to protect and they will shrivel up in the daylight.
If you can ever come out of hiding in the closet, please feel free to come out and tell me what i have said bugs you.

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-26-2001, 11:29 PM
OK then, I'll tell you.

You seek a target, but you have only run into...THE WORLD.

At this point, I will refrain from fighting you in print.

If I were to meet you (or anyone else here) in real life, I'd probably take you out for Chinese food or beer, whatever your preference may be. You may not respect me, but I'll always respect YOU.

With your attitude, it's clear that you've got a lot of problems with our world which is seemingly turning against you.

The last thing you need is another little insignificant speck like ME to make life even more miserable, no?

As I said, my "challenge" of Chinese food or beer will always stand for any of my "brothers" here at this forum - you being one of them.

08-27-2001, 08:37 AM
Gene said:
"I do find your posts insulting and manipulative. You accuse me of all sort so atrocities. Maybe it's me. Any neutral parties wish to comment?"

First, the insulting part. Since i am not TRYING to insult you, i can do nothing about your feeling insulted. I only describe social reality from my perspective. If you feel insulted by someone else's opinion then noone else can help you. You have decided that. And i suspect some contrivance here. Because in fact, no one can make me feel insulted, if i feel insulted then i am responsible for it as all humans are responsible for their feelings. If someone tries to insult me continually thaen i might feel annoyed or etc or if someone was for instance calling me a jerk over and over again i might think they were being obnoxious but then i just wouldn't bother being affected by it.
So i suspect some contrivance, you want to say if you feel insulted then it is my fault, you say i have done this to you. I say not at all.
My impression is that you live in a pretend-world. If someone breaks the bubble by saying : " Hey i don't think the world operates that way", then you feel insulted. You don't want the "pretend-world" to be negative in any way. You have no method of dealing with negativity except denial.
Hey, it's your own mental-world you can structure it any way you want. But in interaction, i am free to voice my opinion of it.
How to say? : Mainland chinese culture incorporates certain forms of lying in daily life and is intrinsic to it's social reality and characteristic. This opinion does not "insult", it describes.
Now if this opinion "insults" you then you have the responsibility for that.
If you don't wish to grow up and face up to reality i am not to blame.

The second part: If you think i have been manipulative in any way please give me one instance and explain how.
I will give you an instance of what i think is your manipulation:
" (Here you made a statemnet about have the abbot has never been convicted in reponse to someone asking you about the truth of the rumoprs that he had others assassinated. I will copy it when this system returns) "
Here, this reminds me of seeing the "Hells Angels" interviewed on American TV. They said "WE have never been CONVICTED of any crime".
So the abbot has never been convicted? and just who would convict him? Certainly not the government officals who he has paid off or who are getting a piece of the action? So in your statement you do not wish to get at the truth of what the abbot does or did or take a look at his character. Your wish is to manipulate public opinion in a favorable way to the abbot, to cast doubt on the questioning. It is knowingly not honest. You know you don't care about his guilt, your object is to cast deflection away from the truth rather than towards it.
Also such statements as "communism works for china" ...(such a pretence! to try fo manipulate foreign opinion... and for what purpose? ..does it need to be spelled out again?.
No i don't find you are committing "atrocities", it is really small potatoes stuff. But i do find it abhorrent.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix
08-27-2001, 11:07 AM
Huang, that does it!
I officially challenge you in a great ku pao kai chicken eating and mei kwei lou jiu drinking when we meet... :D

08-27-2001, 11:22 AM
"northernmantis: There are a lot of nasty rumors spread about Yongxin. In America, you are innocent until proven guilty. In China, they might just shoot you then charge your family for the bullet. In either case, rumors remain unproven until that critical moment..."

OK now here it is, for my former post, the quote from Gene about northernmantis's query as to why are these serious allegations being made:. ..""HEY he hasn't been convicted!"" (China being what it is, he never will be.)
But was that argumnet made in good faith? I would say it was an attempted maipulation.

Lie, deny, confuse, demoralize, create doubt. That is propaganda war, and who is it being waged upon and why?

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-27-2001, 01:22 PM
from russbo.com...
Russbo's seems to thnk PD is a local person, perhaps from the nature of material, writings and photos PD submitted. True or exaggerated? But perhaps, in doubt descretion is best.
"Email 000829: These images and their associated descriptions were sent to me, from a new source, who identifies himself as "Poisoned Dharma". I think I know who he is, but I won't divulge his identity. No doubt that his actions would lead to a very quick jail interment, followed by an "unfortunate suicide". No, sometimes silence is best.

I'll just continue to post them as I get them, messages and photos. No changes have been made to either, other than the usual application of the "russbo.com" type to the pictures. The pictures tell quite the story"

"Without water there would be no fish"

08-27-2001, 03:32 PM
All of you will beat my butt in drinking, as I don't drink any alcoholic beverages at all for fear of addiction.

I still don't understand why stumblefist is so angry at everything.

09-01-2001, 05:07 PM

I agree with stumblefist. Unlike America, Chinese is one big beucracy governed by a bunch of old guards.

Why is Stumbefist all angst up - maybe he's learned a thing or two from ego maximus! But you know - on this forum there is only one ego!

Maximus Maximize!

KC Elbows
09-04-2001, 12:22 AM
I don't know why he's posting so emotionally. It doesn't seem like he has first-hand victimization at the hands of the PRC, or he would site it.
As for enjoying negativity, that is as un buddhist as enjoying positivity.
I'm fairly impressed with Gene's ability to take all that without going off on him. A monumental example of eating bitter if ever I saw one. I especially appreciated the "I'm happy that you're happy that I'm unhappy." Absolutely brilliant. A fine example of verbal kung fu.

The real irony is that one could claim to embrace negativity, and at the same time be unable to accept the negative outcome of a work of fiction, which cannot be changed.

I wouldn't say any of this if I felt that his ire against the temple and the Abbot were based on personal experience. If they are, I appologize, I merely felt that the approach was ineffective, and calling Gene half the things he was called was no different than all the occurences of people turning their neighbors in during the cultural revolution for all sorts of imagined crimes. Of course, I only use the cultural revolution in order to remain somewhat topical. I could have said during the McCarthy hearings, but I didn't want to give Gene a scare in case he really is the Commie Pinko Minister of Peace, War, and Happiness. ;)

09-04-2001, 12:37 PM
Hi KCelbows!
This "stumblefist" you are talking about sounds very strange. I don't know him. It is so strange, one person posts a fiction about me, another compounds it. I wonder if they are deliberate lies or just misunderstandings. Maybe the whole point is tto assassinate stumblefists character to avoid the content of what he is saying. It seems i am effective at knocking the fatasyt wall that is holding many egos together
*** the anger, unhappiness etc *** that's Huang's anger, his projection, Gene's trumped up "should be happy" to avoid the real world.
I am just the observer following logical thought, i just go where the argument and logic goes i have no ego-castles or Government-Orgs to protect, no raging emotions. When one argues, practices or fights one goes where reality takes one. I am not anger or unhappiness driven. I think that is the confusion of those who cannot face the hard light of day. I would say that everything i have said about CMA is held by many others, and everything i say about racism simply isn't understood. I can't help the latter, the forces of society are too strong for individuals to escape them. (And Gene: Yassutani is a prime example of this: If a Zen Teacher couldn't escape identification what makes you think you can?).
Not posting my experiences KC? If you really go back and read my posts i think you get eystrain from reading experiences.
BUT, the idea is wrong again, i am not grinding a personal axe. OK, later i will make a list of my criticisms in this topic. It's quite short.
Enjoying negativity/ enjoying "eating bitter":
2 different concepts.
First concept:
I have never said "Enjoy negativity." Do you see how easily you are confused and how you fail to differentiate between external negativity and internal emotional feeling? It is because most of you have not had a lot of experience in this field and haven't developed your awareness. This is just a side topic, has nothing to do with CMA or kungfu. But at least try to get my words straight. Perhaps there is a cnnection in the line of argumentation we have followed (reality avoidal) but we can do without this idea here.
"calling Gene things" !!!??? I descibe, i don't have the attitude of calling. "Calling" is when people have take identifications and just dishonestly try to "win". I am always open to counter-argument as far as i know. When people just see me "calling" then i think have not developed an ability for dialogue.
"happy happy happy" Using happiness as a weapon or a buffer against the natural world? The route to happiness is for example to pursue an art or an idea (not an emotion) through all exigencies and all emotions, then happiness will result.
"the work of fiction" Aiyo ..this is the work of fiction. I said i thought the SCENE, the description of "breaking" Winston was contrived, not the ending. (for instance the torture/breaking depicted in the movie "Traffic" i thought was much more realistic). I don't know why Gene continues to think i misunderstand the book or don't accept it. Orwell's ending was certainly about something that had ALREADY occurred, not something that MIGHT happen. My point of view about the book and the ending is to think for yourself, to think of the possiblilies of the Human Condtion not finalities. As Slumkid. was speculating there will be different reations to the rat helmet and diffeent recoveries. I think that direct suppression promotes rebellion. What is much more scary is mass propaganda control or even individual, people being controlled to willingly be self-destructive.
Anyway, I suspect Gene wants to use this to somehow empower himself which would explain heis concern that i "get" the ending.
"Good and Evil" Ok KC , on behalf of kungfuonline let me thank you for clarifying good vs evil for everybody.
Evil = When stumblefist posts an argument or criticism against the good guys like Gene or Shaolin or the PRC.
Good = When anyone posts an argument or personal attack against Stumblefist
I'm sure glad we got that straightened out.

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix
09-04-2001, 05:39 PM
Stumble, it's me again...I just wonder why you seems so paranoid (I said seem, because maybe you're not)...When we read you, it's like you're the only one who sees the truth and us bad guys are just blind guys picking on you...like that famous story about "the water that makes you go crazy"...everytime we disagree with you, it seems that you imply that we are too influenced or manipulated too see the truth you are the only one to see...but did you ever question your own certainty?? It seems to me you are convinced you hold the truth, but never really checked if it was the absolute truth...are you the only one saying bad things about Shaolin? NO, Poisoned Dharma came out with the topic, too many people here agree that shaolin seems occupied now by a wushu team instead of genuine warrior-monks...do you think we all worship the PRC because at some point we disagree with parts of your speech? NO, I'm the first one to say that I hate the way PRC is killing trad. gong fu the way they are denaturing it and selling the wushu ersatz to people (and God, PRC wushu at the 2008 olympics :( )...I know lots of other people thinking this way too, it was the topic of one discussion lately...so what is wrong??
Do you all see us as some crooked PRC-sympathizers and mind-enslavers just because we don't agree on some of your most cherished views?
If you forget we are all different individuals with different views that sometimes meet and sometimes clash, then you're guilty of the exact same twisted reasoning that leads to racism, that is "they are all the same"...
About Gene, I leave you the harsh words, I indeed know that kindness gets points much further than arrogance, which you don't seem conscious of...
Your smart posts leaves me the bad taste of someone that feels so deeply insecure he has to reassure himself by discrete ways...
What was the point about "agree with Stumble=evil, disagree=good"??
C'mon, you think it's a conspiracy against you? Gene himself agreed with some of your ideas, I, even during our heated debate recently agreed on some things you said...every action gets rewards, maybe if you get such reactions to your posts, you should stop and check if you are not responsible of the rather cold welcome of some things you say, you should stop and realize that maybe you are not the white, pure dove that you apparently think you are...but I guess it will be rather hard to do if you stay so convinced you and you only possess the truth...ˇÎ

09-04-2001, 06:51 PM
Ok CP. I let you have some of the truth. Just keep a close guard on it. It's too heavy anyway.
What do you think would happen to Government Wushu and Shaolin Kungfu if the the CCP went out of power and relinquished control? 30 years to reestablish as a genuine art/ Or just too impossible to think about? after all it's a large financial resource.
BTW, the people of Henan first taught me the phrase "Government Wushu".

"Without water there would be no fish"

Crimson Phoenix
09-04-2001, 07:23 PM
Stumble, Government wushu is a very good term...some masters also say "show wushu" about it, since in the begining wushu means martial arts, and it is just recently that it came to mean in our terms "thanks" to the PRC, "demonstration gong fu", whereas you know that now we use gong fu for "traditional wushu" eventhough gong fu is not particularly specific to wushu...maybe we should use wu gong...this denaturation of terms is again another blow to TCMA, because they make believe that governement wushu is martial wushu...
Anyway to answer your question, I believe a great portion of the real traditional wushu fled overseas to Taiwan, HK, Malaysia, Europe, Canada, the USA...so it would be nice if they were reimplanted in China in case the PRC disapeared, but it's a good thing they are still resisting and sometimes flowering in our countries...
If PRC disappears, I hope their fake wushu disappears with them...unfortunately around me I see too many people preferring the flashy stuff to the solid but somtimes less appealing traditional gong fu...
Take care!!

09-05-2001, 06:33 AM
HuangKaiVun said:
"You'll get yours one day, stumblefist - either at my hands or somebody else's."

That's a very cogent argument Huang.
Err... about that dinner invitation, perhaps my dog is better company, he doesn't bark as much.

"Without water there would be no fish"

KC Elbows
09-05-2001, 08:10 PM
"when you learn to ENJOY your negative emotions then your personal growth will really take off and your feelings will be that much more wholistic and you will enjoy the positive emotions that much more"

To clarify, that was the qoute I read from, and I still disagree with it and will agree to. Enjoyment is anathema to enlightenment, as is misery.

As far as not "calling" anyone anything, Gene was called a propagandist and a reference was made to his ""lazy" master", though putting quotes around the word lazy makes it seam as if you are not really calling him lazy at all.

Suspiciously, the one person who managed to totally subjugate this thread away from the initial plea was the one person who most claims to be against the tyrants. Congratulations, Stumble, you are a most propagandist. You know that to attack the information merely gives the information voice, yet by standing fanatically and without reason for every point brought up within the plea, you discredit it by association.
The PRC would be so proud.

KC Elbows
09-05-2001, 08:23 PM
Now, my opinion of the initial plea is twofold.

First, the plea loses its credibility by not revealing the speaker's identity. No responsible individual could with clear conscience ostracize the abbot based on such hearsay, even if it were true. If it is all true, it is terrible, but to ruin a man's life based on hearsay is a recipe for disaster and a disservice to freedom. All tyranny is not possessed by leader, for common men make tyrants of themselves via witchhunt/McCarthy Hearing/what have you.

Second, there is obviously truth to some details held within the plea, i.e. that people are being relocated. However, this does not validate the other charges of murder, graft, etc. Perhaps it happened and perhaps it didn't, none of us seem to have enough info to know, but without the Gene's of us around to actually step inside those circles and see what is there, we will never know. I tend to think it unlikely that the PRC would give any religious movement so much power, so I tend to think that the plea is dubious, but I could be wrong.

KC Elbows
09-05-2001, 08:30 PM
Okay, one more before I go back to work.

The other problem I have with the initial plea is that it sounds much like the criticisms that the chinese were leveling against each other throughout the cultural revolution, at least in style and content. "Help us against the tyrant <place political opponent here> who crushes the people beneath his iron boot, for he has <place crime here>".

It might all be true, but I'm not going to assume it is.

09-06-2001, 03:11 AM
any info on 6elbows on the net or could you script a little history....

09-06-2001, 05:59 AM
hmmm...one of my kung fu friends feels rather strongly about this issue. He thinks that the shaolin kung fu monks are a load of rubbish. contrived bs to take advantage of the shaolin movie etc. just a big $$$ making tourist attraction thing.
Just out of interest are the following facts true?
shoalin was a pile of rubble for a long time until the success of the shaolin movie?
the 'monks' were just people who studied or taught kung fu near the school etc.
I have respect for authentic shaolin masters, but if the shaolin temple is just a fake group of monks as part of a corrupt money making scheme integrated with the PRC communist regime...that really stinks.
anyway hahaa i know this adds nothing to the topic but thought i might say something too

yours truly


09-06-2001, 05:03 PM
KC: The only thing I'll give you is that calling the fellow lazy was out of line or needed to be placed in context without the calling.
If not for that i wouldn't have replied here. Look stick to KC and sing the blues there, you'll get deep mugged in the outside world cuz you're just really foggy.

"Without water there would be no fish"

KC Elbows
09-06-2001, 07:24 PM
Friday, I don't know the truth of that. I've heard(again this is only heresay, there are others here that have more first hand experience and more sufficient history) that actual monks did take part in remaking the temple. If memory serves correctly, some monks were in hiding during the cultural revolution, but from there I don't know much. However, I'm quite sure there are also a lot of martial artists posing as monks, but whether any of these have any actual relation to the temple I don't know. Also, it must be kept in mind that one can be a shaolin monk in a traditional sense and still practice no martial arts.

Diego, I'm in the process of picking my sifu's brain and his teacher's brain so I can put together a decent history of six elbows. Here's my two cents. Six elbows is a southern style of kung fu with strong influences of mantis and hsing yi. The style consists of an external pre-form, an intermediate external form called Little Buddha, An internal-external form called Bi Da(my spelling might be WAAAY off) and an lengthy internal form called Bi Da Luk Chuan(again, my spelling is probably suspect). The internal form holds the core of the system. Broadsword and spear are also practiced. In the U.S., six elbows is taught by Chun Man Sit, who is also a practitioner of Wu style tai chi. He's had some articles on tai chi published, though I don't know of any six elbows articles out there. He learned six elbows in Hong Kong, though I'll save his teachers name for another post, as I'd feel like an idiot if I got the name wrong or mutilated it in any way.

The art is especially good at very close range fighting, although long and middle range are not ignored. Sticky hands is practiced, though the sticky hands is more circular than wing chun.

If you're ever in the area, Diego, I'd be glad to take you to the different six-elbows teachers here. Although all have trained under Sit, each has their own flavor, and their own intensity.

As far as the group I practice with, we train very hard, and are very fight oriented. My sifu doesn't train for money, so we can keep a very high intensity level without worrying who stays with us and who leaves, but we treat all comers with friendship.

I'll get more info later.

KC Elbows
09-06-2001, 07:25 PM
Hope I wasn't too "foggy". :rolleyes: