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MonkeySlap Too
11-20-2000, 10:38 PM
Once I had a state wrestling champion join my school - he wanted to round out his training before he went into the military. During the course of working with him one on one (with a year to go, I decided to work with him based on what he already knew) I was also able to evaluate the effectiveness or non effectiveness of various counters I had learned to western wrestling moves. It was a rewarding training experience for both of us.

One move he enjoyed was wrapping his arms around someone from behind Your arms are either pinned or free - free actually seemed to be in his favor. From here he could execute a sacrifice throw backwards or drive you into the ground forwards. For fun, we'd invite visiting 'experts' try to escape from this position. I was amazed at how hard of a time most martial artists had with this position.

That being said, what are your favorite moves to escape this position?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

JerryLove
11-20-2000, 10:58 PM
Isn't grappling's standard counter to dig your hooks in? I though that was why the throw is more commonly done with one arm sweeping the legs, cause if the hooks catch, that sacrifice throw can land on the thrower's head.

Ross
11-21-2000, 04:07 AM
Jerry...what do you mean by...digging your hooks in? The souples throw (from behind) is done immediately once you wrap...I had a classmate have both arms broken when he had a similar throw done from the front in a tournament. He didn't do the standard self preservation move (wrap your arms so they aren't what you land on...). Like all throws it is better not to let the guy get into position.....

Cheers, R

JerryLove
11-21-2000, 04:15 AM
Heel hooks. In this case, you'd be trying to hook his legs, preventing him from getting your head above his when in the bridge position (the end of the sacrifice throw).

11-25-2000, 03:36 AM
Umm, a heel hook is a submission. About Sacrifice throws, I love throwing from the over under position (one arm over and the other under the guys other arm), when done properly you don't get a chance to hook a leg to prevent it. If the guy hooks your leg then you made a mistake.

JerryLove
11-25-2000, 03:47 AM
Sorry if I used the terminology wrong, my art doen't use it. But I don't see how the grab described prevents using your leg to grab your opponents. Am I misunderstanding the throw?

11-28-2000, 04:01 AM
The throw I'm talking about is done when your opponent doesn't know it's coming ( and even sometimes they do). Actually if you hook a leg to try and prevent it you will most likely be off balance and get taken down by an inside trip, so either way you go down, hope this explains it a bit better.

JerryLove
11-28-2000, 04:06 AM
So you're standing around. Your opponent comes up in front of you and grabs you around the waist. As he lifts you off the ground you wrap your legs around the outside of his and dig your heels in below his glutes.

Now, if he doesn't realize you did, he falls back for a sacrifice throw but that pulls you down until his head is higher than yours and he takes the impact from both your weights.

If he does realise (as you suggest) he cannot trip you (your legs are not on the ground). The closest is to fall forward onto you. You unhook your legs and wrap them around him (low guard?).

Not my speciality, but it should work. BTW, I have not heard your suggestion yet. What do you propose instead?

JWTAYLOR
11-28-2000, 04:57 PM
Hey, something I have recent experience in. Oddly enough, look under the "Countering penetration" thread a and you'll see the same discussion.

Wrapping the heals against a front supplex: We had limited success trying this. One of the biggest problems is that as your opponent lifts with his legs and leans back his motion throws your legs back behind you. It makes the hook very hard to get. Also, an opponent with powerful legs tends to bust through the hooks since the supplex is such an explosive technique.

I found a good counter. And, if pulled off, it kind of sets up the throw that Vitor29 made a reference to. Judoka call it "the elevator". It also sets up a standing guilotine. I described it in the other post. As my last post suggests, there can be some drawbacks. (such as I'll be limping for the next month or so)

JW

12-02-2000, 04:19 AM
Jerry, the throw I am describing doesn't involve wrapping around the waist, it's all done from a tie up. However, what you are describing is more of a belly-to-belly suplex, not a sacrifice throw. Anyhoo, a decent Greco wrestler would slam you anyway even if you did that. Once you're up like that you're in BIG trouble. What I would do if a guy wrapped his legs around me like that is simply slam him straight down on his back.

lawdragon
12-02-2000, 09:05 PM
Sorry I missed the earlier part of this thread - hope this is still useful.

As I have wrestled GR, where back arch throws are common, for a number of years, I think I can answer your questions.

First, in defending against a suplay (belly to back), there are two commonly seen defenses. First, and most effective, is to hook your opponants legs with your feet, usually right inside the knee. The knees must bend to complete the throw, and if they are hooked the throw will not be successfully completed. Either your opponant will lnad on his back or head, or the hook with throw his leg out and the throw will disintegrate. However, in GR wrestling, hooking is illegal as it requires direct use of the legs. Thus, another defense has developed. This involves leaning forward and throwing one arm back to straightarm the opponants shoulder. This prevents the leverage necessary for the throw.

Defending against a salto (belly to belly) is more difficult for a number of reasons. First, there are more options available to the opponant. Second, the foot hooks are irrelevant - to try a hook will result in your being slammed onto your back.

Generally, the first defense is to keep you hips down. Back arch throws require the thrower to have his hips lower than yours. A back throw in a face to face situation will first come about when the thrower comes in low and then elevates, or locks up and then "jacks up" the opponant. The better throwers will use the first method as its harder to stop because its faster. If you can keep your hips low by bending in, you can prevent this throw although you may open up others. The second defense is to clamp your arms hard over your opponants inside arms - overhooks. This can break the grip or at least take away the leverage and allow you to escapt the tie up. As an added bonus, this sets up a back throw for you if you can clamp the arms sufficiently tight.