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mubarazaad
01-10-2001, 12:15 AM
Hello brothers,

I have been using level drops when I fight since as far back as I can remember and it works like a charm especially against fighters who train primarily for competition and cover up like boxers and kickboxers, completely forgetting the lowline attacks since they are banned in sport oriented martial arts. This is one tactic that I have seen in old style combat systems from africa to the orient but is not as prevalent in the progressive jkd/kickboxing type styles of fighting. Does anyone have a clue why such a functional element of fighting is left out of the progressive martial arts package and replaced with competition BJJ routines that are all but useless in the combat environment? I guess progressive martial arts are not as progressive as they think.
Im instigating drama boys, now let's have a good debate. Come and get a piece.

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

old jong
01-10-2001, 01:44 AM
Hi Hussein.
I'm with you.I guest it is the difference betwen sport and martial art.But I'm still cautious...Some sport guys can cause surprises sometimes with their speed,power and endurance! ;)

C'est la vie!

Knifefighter
01-10-2001, 02:09 AM
Dude- I don’t think you know what you are talking about. Low line attacks banned in sports oriented events? Have you ever heard of a sport called Muay Thai? You have obviously never trained with or against JKD or BJJ fighters. As a long-time JKD and BJJ practitioner, I can tell you that low line attacks are a significant element of both styles. Almost all of JKD kicks are to the low line. BJJ has kicks to the low line as well as a variety of takedown attacks that involve changing levels. No offense, but that is one of the most misinformed statements I have heard in quite a while.

As far as BJJ routines being unrealistic for combat, give me a break.

Most combat sports competitors will mop the floor with those who don’t compete.

This wasn’t even a decent troll. A good troll should have some basis in reality.

mubarazaad
01-10-2001, 03:08 AM
Hi guys,

I knew everyone was going to jump on me! great let's get talking!

Firtly knife fighter, I don't think JKD is a sport oriented martial art, Bruce never competed and his style definitly shows it is meant for street application not the ring.
Now I think I should explain when I say low line I mean groin, not low kicks. BJJ and kickboxing are still sports and you can't attack the groin area in either one of them otherwise every BJJ practitioner would have his balls ripped out every time he went into guard position. As for the combat sports guys beating everyone else, I agree to some degree, everyone else who doesn't have the time to train and spar as much as they do. In a streetfight with 2 equally trained fighters I would put my money on a Silat guy before a BJJ guy anyday. One is geared for combat the other for sport, If they both train hard and have the same level of skill the style plays a role and gives the fighter an advantage, we fight the way we train. Sport guys are fine in the ring but outside, weapons, groin attacks, eye gouging, taking their friend hostage, nothing is forbidden, unless they also train similar tactics they will not win. Try Paul Vunak in the street with Royce Gracie see who wins.

take care,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

mubarazaad
01-10-2001, 03:38 AM
I think people are getting confused when I say level changes. I mean level changes as a drop from a high kickboxing type stance to a very low squat position which gets you offline of high level strikes and puts you in place for groin attacks.

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

Knifefighter
01-10-2001, 04:52 AM
" I don't think JKD is a sport oriented martial art…"
This is after you said "but is not as prevalent in the progressive jkd/kickboxing type styles of fighting. Does anyone have a clue why such a functional element fighting is left out of the progressive martial arts."
Make up your mind.

"BJJ and kickboxing are still sports and you can't attack the groin area in either one of them…"
BJJ fighters often train for vale tudo, a sport where groin strikes are legal. As a matter of fact one guy lost a match a few years ago when another fighter reached inside the guy’s shorts, grabbed his balls and squeezed. Don’t fool yourself into thinking that people who practice BJJ don’t know how to eye gouge, bite and go for the groin.

"… otherwise every BJJ practitioner would have his balls ripped out every time he went into guard position."
Try it against a BJJ guy and you will quickly find that the old "grab the balls in the guard" doesn’t work very well.

In a streetfight with 2 equally trained fighters I would put my money on a Silat guy before a BJJ guy anyday."
Are we talking with or without weapons. I have trained with and against both. Unarmed I would put my money on the BJJ guy. Armed I would put my money on the BJJ guy who has cross-trained in weapons, as I’ve seen it many times before.


"Try Paul Vunak in the street with Royce Gracie see who wins."
I’ve trained with both and I’ll take Royce, unarmed. With weapons, I’d give the edge to Paul.

"I mean level changes as a drop from a high type stance to a very low squat position which gets you offline of high level strikes and puts you in place for groin attacks."
Methinks you must be fighting some very low-skilled opponents if you think that kind of stuff works worth a ****.

mubarazaad
01-10-2001, 05:40 AM
Hi knifefighter,

I have encountered many brazillian jujitsu stylists and instructors and from what I have seen from them the majority is competition routines. Maybe you are right and I haven't trained with someone who could match royce gracie in skill but until the day I do and he shows me the non competition aspect of BJJ, I will still keep my money on more combat oriented arts like silat and kali because I find them more appropriate for streetfighting, that's my opinion from what I have seen.
As for the level changes, let me give you a close to home example since you are a Dog Brother. Mr.Eric Knaus uses them all the time when he is stickfighting, he calls them kangaroo jumps, that same type of attack can easily be adapted to empty hand work and edged weapons. That's what I mean by level changes not some BS technique from kungfu movies.

take care,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

Knifefighter
01-10-2001, 06:04 AM
"I have encountered many brazillian jujitsu stylists and instructors…"
The BJJ community is not that large and there are a limited number of black belt instructors. Could you name several of the "many" BJJ instructors that you have "encountered" and tell me what the encounter consisted of?

"Mr.Eric Knaus uses them all the time when he is stickfighting, he calls them kangaroo jumps, that same type of attack can easily be adapted to empty hand work and edged weapons."
They work OK with weapons, but don’t work worth a hill of beans without, especially to the groin.

And speaking of the Dog Brothers, BJJ is what the many of the fighters at the gathering use to complement their weapon work.
m

[This message was edited by Knifefighter on 01-10-01 at 11:20 PM.]

mubarazaad
01-10-2001, 06:53 AM
Hi, knifefighter

At this point in our debate I must capitulate. Since you are older and more experienced with extensive training in BJJ I will abandon my argument for the time being until I research this style more. I have family in new york so it's no big hassle for me to visit the gracie academy there next time Im in manhattan. Since you swear by the effectiveness of BJJ even in a non competition setting than it's worth it for me to train it and find out for myself the usefullness of the technique against an opponent looking for vital target attacks. I have always agreed with the martial arts of the Dog Brothers and since you say they are using BJJ, before I disagree with them on their decision to employ it, I want more indepth information about the combat part of the style. Until that time you have won the argument, I am looking forward to more in the future.

take care,

Hussein

La Fata Ila Ali Wa La Sayf Ila Zulfaker
There is no sword but zulfakar and no hero but Ali

nhbfighter_57069
01-10-2001, 07:06 AM
I believe that BJJ is used all the time on the street. Look at all the fights your hear about in Brazil. Ryan Gracie is a prime example. There must be some street aspect to it. As for BJJ vs. salist (sorry for the spelling), I have never trained with anyone that has trained in saliat so I can not say who would win. If you have a BJJ win some stand up skills they can be a very tough fight for anyone.