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View Full Version : Would you realy take this position in a street fight?



dan downard
09-11-2000, 02:30 AM
http://www.martialinfo.com/Who_is_Who/ArtistGifs/matsuda4.gif
It didnt come out right,but he is on one foot with his legs crossed.
Can someone please explain what he thinks he is doing?Is it a normal thing to cross your own legs like that?And why?

[This message has been edited by dan downard (edited 09-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by dan downard (edited 09-11-2000).]

Braden
09-11-2000, 02:48 AM
No, I wouldn't take any position in a streetfight, as there's alot more to worry about.

I believe that these kind of odd stances came about because there are some important and very practical skills in kungfu which, if developed, offer the practitioner a certain amount of control and balance on one foot. So this kind of thing probably originated as a demonstration.

However, I've got to say, they've gotten a bit out of hand. Plus some people seem to be under the impression that you'd stand like that waiting for someone to come to you in a real fight. Which is... too bad.

JWTAYLOR
09-11-2000, 02:58 AM
Assuming this is a transition, and NOT a static stance, the crossed legs can be very deceptive. If the right leg in the photo is the one htat is up off the ground, it could be stepping back. That would move him away from his opponent. Or, he could rotate and throw a back kick. Or he could shoot out the right into a knife edge kick.
In short, footwork like that can make your opponent think you are retreating when you are really setting him up for attack.

As far as standing like that in a fight, it's my greatest hope that someone would stand like that and try to fight me.
JWT

SifuAbel
09-11-2000, 04:07 AM
I recognize him, that's madtsuda(sp?) paulie zink's student. Why the partial picture? I can't tell if he's doing a crosssing step or a foot scoop. I'm 100% with JWT. And no jw, no self respecting monkey would just stand there like that. Then again, this is zink we're talking about.

SifuAbel
09-11-2000, 04:14 AM
The whole picture can be found here: http://www.martialinfo.com/Who_is_Who/matsuda.htm

He's doing a front foot scoop. Or at least he's trying to. This is not a start up guard.
I have no idea what his hands are supposed to be doing. Just posing I guess.


[This message has been edited by SifuAbel (edited 09-11-2000).]

Gargoyle again
09-11-2000, 04:23 AM
Yeah, I've been asked more than a few times about the crossed and twisted stances in kung fu a lot. When you realize that they are transitional and not static, the questions disappear. That's probably the double-edge with trying to show off your art with just a photograph. Kung fu moves, a picture doesn't, so you really just are left with trying to pose as cool as possible. Crouching all twisted and low, with snazzy silk clothes, tells the ignorant newbie "genuine kung fu!"

I. P. Chi
09-11-2000, 04:26 AM
http://www.martialinfo.com/Styles/monkey/pic1.gif

http://www.martialinfo.com/Styles/monkey/pic2.gif

More pictures from the same site. Do monkey stylists really fight this way?????

dan downard
09-11-2000, 04:48 AM
I was trying to find something on SifuAbles style of Kung Fu.He is right.Not too many people practice it.I only found a couple of sites.But I also found about 30 different styles of Kung Fu.Why so many?
I have a theory.Could it be that there are so many based on overlaping geogrophy?And thats why the styles overlap each other also?
Old masters took what they learned on their travels and put them together.So the way they were x-training was based on geogrophy.
Now we have planes and can go from country to country.And more and different kinds of x-training emerge.Sound reasonable?

Arioch7
09-11-2000, 04:51 AM
Hey guys. Ok, obviously this is a subtle attempt to bash Monkey style or CMA's in general. Whatever...

My question is for Sifu Abel or any other monkey practioner. I noticed that you were talking about Paulie Zink, do you have animosity towards him? I know NOTHING about Monkey style. I dont like it but that is because I dont like Monkees! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know it is a stupid bias but what can I tell you... I like Orangutangs and Lemurs. Maybe if thier was a LEMUR STYLE!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The last time I regularly frequented this forum, you were talking in great depth about the Monkey styles. I did not read them much because I did not have the interest. I realize it is illogical to not like your style because I dont think monkees can fight well but I see my mistake in judgement clearly so I have another request. Would you give me a brief summary( A few sentances?) why Monkey styles are so effective in combat and also what is the weakness of monkey stles?

This is a legitimate question even if it seems like I am playing! I have had a few... celebrating my good fortune! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

8stepsifu
09-11-2000, 04:54 AM
no. I'd be in a 50/50 stance with my hands up and be sportin some relaxed fists.

I. P. Chi
09-11-2000, 04:57 AM
http://www.martialinfo.com/Who_is_Who/monkey2.gif

Paulie Zink is one scary looking dude. I wouldnÂ’t fight him unless he passed a blood test first.

Arioch7
09-11-2000, 05:04 AM
ROTFLMAO!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am trying to be simian friendly here! One thing I did think about is that a lot of Chinese styles exagerrate thier movements in a set to build power and then make them "shorter" in actual practice.

If they DO fight this low, they must have good lower body strength and coordination. I cant comment on the pic because I am trying to keep this positive. The post was funny though.

Sifu Abel, I would like a response as I am certainly mystified as to the practices of the Monkey stylists.

Serpent
09-11-2000, 05:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Arioch7:
One thing I did think about is that a lot of Chinese styles exagerrate thier movements in a set to build power and then make them "shorter" in actual practice. [/quote]

Absolutely right.

sct82abn
09-11-2000, 10:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dan downard:

I have a theory.Could it be that there are so many based on overlaping geogrophy?And thats why the styles overlap each other also?
Old masters took what they learned on their travels and put them together.?[/quote]

you are right about some styles of kung fu being developed because of geography.for example, if the area was wet close-in hand fighting techniques were stressed,crowded cities such as SHANGHAI in southern CHINA saw the development of close-in seizing and grappling styles of which chin-na was the best known,if the location was flat and dry as in northern CHINA there was more room to fight and since northern chinese tended to be taller than southern, leg techniques were emphasized,in rocky and rugged regions low horse stances w/running,shifting and jumping over uneven terrain were learned;best demonstrated in monkey kung fu.

there are far more than 30 styles of kung fu alot came from differnt families and clans,many from observing animal techniques and applying them.the shaolin temples were where alot of them got their start either from the monks or people creating there own systems and presenting them to the monks.alot of people studied at the temple for a while and moved on incorporating what they learned at the temple in their own system which is why alot of styles have similarities.

i don't claim to be a scholar on the matter but i have read alot on it and everything i've said here is true.if you'd like to know more on the history,styles and philosophy of KUNG FU check out the book "KUNG FU history,philosophy and technique" by david chow and richard spangler,it's a very informative book i enjoyed.

i hope some of the things i said may have answered part of your question.

MaFuYee
09-11-2000, 07:31 PM
dan downward,
in case you are not joking, no you wouldn't 'square off' with a guy in this posture.
my interpretation of the picture in your first post would be, hooking the leg, and trapping the arms, throwing the guy on his back.

the holding of this posture would be used for the development of the muscles, and balance; also to ingrain it into muscle memory.

are the postures exaggerated? yes, but, it's the same principle as the baseball batter who practices swinging 3 bats during warmup.

* as to paulie zink being a fake(?)
i don't know too much about the guy, or what he teaches, and i admit to having had a chuckle or two while reading his articles...
but i have to give a hefty amount of credit and respect to anyone who can do what he does.
* power is generated by speed and body coordination, and speed comes from good flexibility. - the more flexible you are the faster you will be and the more power you can generate. plain and simple.

******
ip chi,
i think what they are doing is the stylised "artistic" version. (martial "ART")
i don't think very many good monkey stylists would actually do that so exaggerated. (although paulie zink probably might! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif and he would be able to pull it off too!)
e.g. if you look at the pic you posted, what he is doing is in wing chun. he is locking the arm and kicking the knee.
-does he HAVE to be that low? of course not, but it is excellent development.

** anyone ever try to hit someone so low to the ground?

dan downard
09-11-2000, 08:00 PM
It is sad to me that you guys have had to defend your selves so much that you have become paranoid.I havnot bashed anyone or any style since I have been here.I do not appreciate the (obvious troll ) comment by Arioch7.I am asking questions with the purpose of finding out about something I know little about.If you have something to contribute than fine.If you are just wanting to continue the flame wars and crap than please do so with someone else.I havent even posted on those threads because I dont want to be involved in it.Arioch7 ,you said you didnt know much about Monkey style either.So why is it that when someone else asks about it,it becomes a (suptle way of trashing kung fu).SfiuAble is the one who practices it and I got civil answers from him.He was quite polite.Please try to do the same.

Arioch7
09-11-2000, 08:11 PM
What can I say? I am sorry that I called you a troll.

Jaguar Wong
09-12-2000, 01:00 AM
--

[This message has been edited by Jaguar Wong (edited 09-12-2000).]

Jaguar Wong
09-12-2000, 01:01 AM
yeah, dan. Arioch was "lightly toasted" when he posted that. http://216.219.234.88/forum/roundtable/tongue.gif

I've read your posts here and at Mousels (when they were still up), and I gotta say that you're very open minded about the arts (that puts you in my cool book, but I'm not sure how big of a status symbol that is, though). /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I know you were actual asking a question, and not pokin' fun at us "posers".

------------------
Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

SifuAbel
09-12-2000, 01:28 AM
Dan,
You are right. If i'm asked in a serious tone, I will answer likewise. Many TCMA sifu do not like zink's monkey. If sifu ross is around he'll give his .02 centavos about it too.

IP,

No, that is exagerated and almost comical. I can see why people have a hard time understanding monkey styles when you have this as an example. I think zink is way too flexible. If you notice he's got his leg behind the supporting leg instead of just sticking it out. many belive his monkey is fraudulent or at least water down for the "Lo Fan". The Chan Sao Chun camp does not even recognize him as a legitimate player.

Monkey styles are, for the most part, Kung fu's dirty fighter. Very unorthadox in the sense that it doesn't square of to the opponenent directly. It's main goal is to make the opponent overextend himself. Quick evasive moves are the monkey's main defense. Low stance work takes a monkey out of a "standup" hitting range. Quick lockup's to bring the opponent down to a vunerable position for yet more striking. Confusion and deception are key to monkey styles. Quick alternating levels, fighting low and high respectively. Not a submission style per se. Most grappling is done to further the striking range. Monkey makes use of opposing forces. Pulling to push, dropping to rise, lifting to drop. Techniques which cause to opponent to crash into the strikes thrown. A good monkey fighter always keeps his opponents guessing and moving in odd directions. Monkey as a style is very aggressive. If you get a chance to see Chan Sao Chun's students, you will get an idea of what my monkey looks like.(sounds almost nasty)

Jaguar Wong
09-12-2000, 03:22 AM
Man Abel, I always had some idea about Monkey style, but you make it sound downright exciting! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I would really love to see some actual demos of the style, but of course, I'm sure everyone else would as well after all the battles goin' on here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The idea of using grappling to further striking is also found in praying mantis, but adding that with the tricky levels, and bringing the fight down sounds like something you don't want to be on the business end of.

... awaiting more explinations ...

------------------
Jaguar Wong
www.superaction.com (http://www.superaction.com)

[This message has been edited by Jaguar Wong (edited 09-12-2000).]

dan downard
09-12-2000, 04:21 AM
Really,Sifu able that is the kind of answer I was looking for.I can somewhat visualise it.Changeing levels and keeping your opponant off balance or over extended is incorporated in just about all martial arts .But,the way you go about it in your style seems so different.I would love to hear more,and some video would be cool too.I found one kung fu school in my area that does full contact .I am going to go check them out.I love the idea of learning a little of everything and then chosing what works best for you to delve deeper into.There are so many styles of martial arts.It is hard to just pick a couple to train seriously with.It's ALL good.
P.S.
Arioch7,no problem.I know you guys have been run through the mill.I consider this going to someone elses house.I dont intend to be rude or insulting.A little argumentetive for the sake of discussion.But,thats all.I would rather pick you fellas brains and try and learn something than make enemys with people I dont even know.I love to share what I know.Only guys who are interested even want to hear about it.

Arioch7
09-12-2000, 04:22 AM
Thank you Sifu Abel for the explanation and thanks Jaguar for the "other" explanation. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hmmm, very descriptive. I am out to pick up my new car right now but I will definately have some more questions later.

I thought Mantis guys were tricky, now I have to worry about the monkey people too. Sifu, my question was indeed serious and I meant what I said. I cant help it if I dont like monkeys much!

EDIT: Thanks Dan, I dont want to anger people, even unintentionally.


[This message has been edited by Arioch7 (edited 09-12-2000).]

Sam Wiley
09-12-2000, 04:34 AM
I think I P Chi was referring to Zink's complexion. He doesn't look too healthy, as if he was entering the advanced stages of AIDS.

jade_immortal
09-12-2000, 10:31 AM
While stationed in the Philippines (about 20 years ago) I met a guy who had learned, though no necessarily mastered, several different Kung-Fu styles. When asked which was the most difficult to learn, he replied almost without hesitation--Monkey Style!

Like most newbies I got most of my info through Inside Kung-Fu Magazine; and like most newbies, took the articles as the spoken word of God. I was particularly impressed with the abilities of (don't laugh) Paulie Zink. I'd read that he 'defeated' several martial artists from different styles, which only served to fuel the fire more to learn this unique style.

Unfortunately I never found a school or teacher, and as the years passed I lost interest. But...and I'm directing this question towards SifuAble...is it possible for a guy in his 40's, starting for the first time, to become proficient at this style? Or is it something that you have to start at a much earlier age? Not that I'm planning on starting anytime soon mind you (I intend to start Yi-Chuan training next month), but a remark you made caught my attention. You remarked that Paulie Zink was "...way too flexible...", which would imply that you don't need to have the flexibility of a gumbie doll to master Monkey Style Kung-Fu: I always thought extreme flexibility was requisite to mastering this style!

Should I decide to take this style at a later date it's nice to know there's hope for me yet (assuming your reply is in the affirmative of course).

PS: (And now a word to all you Inside Kung-Fu Magazine fans) I don't want to sound like I'm knocking Inside Kung-Fu Magazine. I still enjoy reading it. It's just that I'm a little more discerning now. I still buy it and think it's a decent mag IMHO.

SifuAbel
09-12-2000, 11:20 AM
It depends on a few things.

1) Do you have good stance work from a previous training? Low preferably.This by far is the most demanding part of the style.

2)If not, do you feel that you would be able to strengthen your legs enough to be able to do a one leg squat?

3)Don't take this the wrong way, How big & tall are you? The lighter and shorter you are the easier it would be to train up to monkey.

4)You don't have to be zink flexible. Flexibility is needed, however. Particularly in the achilles tendon area and shoulders.

I never like to say no to people. Being that if one really wanted it one could get it in time. But, you do need good basic skills to learn monkey style.

jade_immortal
09-12-2000, 11:38 AM
Thanks for the reply SifuAble, if I'm in the San Mateo area (I live in San Leandro) I'll drop by. I've always wanted to see what the style looks like in application.

BTW I'm 5'9" and weigh about 170 pounds. I do quite a bit of standing meditation (from Yi-Chuan) and though I don't consider myself a veteran yet I HAVE developed quite a bit of leg stregnth in the short time I've been at it.

Arioch7
09-13-2000, 04:49 AM
Quick question, Sifu Abel...

I think I understand the GENERAL idea behind Monkey style(VERY GENERAL!), and I am getting the feeling that it is a sneaky(No disrespect intended.) style that would be great against hard stylists that extend full power into every strike.

My question is, is the general doctrine to allow opponents to over extend themselves and then to "smother" them with quick compounded strikes and evasive maneuvers?

I realize that every style contains a lot of things in the totality of the system(So there probably ARE some hard strikes in monkey styles.), but is this the general idea?

SifuAbel
09-13-2000, 06:46 AM
Some strikes are quick some are full power hard. Monkey tries to strike as hard as possible. He doesn't smother his opponets as much as he will control and direct his movements in odd directions. Monkey is very sneaky, in the sense that he never lets on what he's going to do. He alway misdirects the opponents attention. Feigns a kick and then punches and so on. Not all monkey techniques are "small". There are different monkey types. Some are tall and long reaching, some are small like our lost or creepy monkey, some are strong and agressive like stone monkey some are very agile like drunken and so on. BTW all of zinks monkies look creepy which tells me something.

MaFuYee
09-13-2000, 06:58 PM
haha creepy monkey! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

i don't know how anyone can try to imply that paulie zink is not the real deal! - he's got ... 'good kung fu' *thumb up*

i would challenge anybody to take a class of his, and try to keep up with him. not very likely. (i am not a student of his.)

if you have never seen him perform; go get a demo tape with him on it; you'll be amazed.

- and i don't think just because p. zink demonstrates so low, he necessarily uses it that low. - i always thought it was just for training purposes(?) no?
- i mean, why would i throw an axe kick while practically sitting on the floor?
- if you 'un-exagerate' each move, doesn't it seem a bit more practical?
- there is the Martial aspect and the Art aspect. when you are fighting, you use one, and when you are not, you use the other.

[This message has been edited by MaFuYee (edited 09-14-2000).]

SifuAbel
09-14-2000, 12:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MaFuYee:

if you have never seen him perform; go get a demo tape with him on it; you'll be amazed.
[/quote]

Ma,

With all due respect, I've seen his demo tapes and I am not impressed. BTW, I'm not the only one. If you want to see real Tai Shing Pei Kwar. Find something with Chan Sao Chun or his group and you will see a big difference in style. Not all the squirley monkey.

totallyfrozen
09-17-2000, 01:30 AM
I don't know JACK bout Monkey style kung-fu.

I DO know that most 'STANCES' are actually transitions between movements and not a "ready for attack" stance...as most people seem to think they are. After all, when you are actually attacked in a fight...how often do you get a chance to get into a "ready" stance? Usually, you are "jumped" and "sucker punched" and stuff. It's been my experience that you are just standing around and someone tries to surprise you...THAT'S reality.

As far as this Monkey stuff in the photos, in light of the fact that (I assume) these are transitional periods, I would have to say....It looks like you have to be VERY fast and VERY agile to practice Monkey style. I have respect for that.
I don't know a thing about Monkey...but it looks like you'd have to be fast to do it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It looks so weird and abnormal that I think I would hesitate to fight a Monkey fighter, myself, because it would be hard to figure out what he was doing or was going to do...but that's just MY opinion.

"There is only ONE karate"

totallyfrozen
09-17-2000, 01:48 AM
I think the only style that would be more intimidaing than the Monkey style is an Evil Clown style.
Clowns are much more creepy than monkies...but Monkey looks creepy too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"There is only ONE karate"