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View Full Version : Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?



MonkeySlap
08-06-2000, 01:57 AM
Every time. This is an O-o-o-o-ld aurgument of mine. They train harder, have tactile confidence, and kids todat have learned about slipping kicks and punches just from watching TV.

I've been saying this for twenty years and I still think it is true. Even if you have 'better' technique, if you do not train at least as hard and as often, the odds are against you.

And in the average fight the wrestler has the advantage.

Any bites?

08-06-2000, 02:14 AM
What you say is true, because the average martial artist is not an athlete, while the average wrestler will be quite athletic, and wrestling is a very rough, demanding, tough sport/art. this and as you said, the competitive mindedness of a wrestler will give them an incredible edge. this isn't going to hold true everytime, but on average I'd say it's a safe bet.

MonkeySlap
08-06-2000, 02:16 AM
As Vitor said. As CMA folks, it's up to us to train with this kind of fervor. Otherwise we are gonna get stomped by some kid who's wet behind the ears.

totallyfrozen
08-06-2000, 02:29 AM
I think that any style can be effective BUT it requires the practitioner to "master" it. I don't mean become a recognized Master..I mean to learn the system and make it become second nature. For example:
I think that Mike Tyson could whip the average Karate or Kung Fu practition found in your average school any day. But I think that Bruce Lee would have killed Mike Tyson in a fight..and I think that Chuck Norris could kill him too.
Royce Gracie is a grappler...but he has beaten men of nearly every style in the UFC fights.
Why? Because these men have mastered their styles. A highschool wrestler could beat the average guy on the street...but most likely could not beat Royce Gracie (or Chuck Norris for that matter).
I think that any system which is well rounded and has some serious techniques can be deadly effective in the hands (and feet) some someone who has seriously learned the style and has "mastered" it in him/her self.
As far as the AVERAGE wrestler and the AVERAGE martial artist (by the way..I'm of the opinion that both boxing and wrestling are martial arts..but that's a personal view)...well...that depends is the "average" martial artist either knows how to fight on the ground..or knows how to cosistently avoid going to the ground.
My boxing instructor (Western "American" boxing..not Chinese) had been in many a bar fight and even was attacked with a knife. Unarmed against a knife, he literally bunched the assailants left eye right out of his head. He had been attacked by grapplers and could punch so well that he was never taken to the ground...ever. He could knock out all the grapplers who came in close enough to try to get him (punch in the jaw or temple). He was the heavyweight state champ of Geogia for 6 years (back in the 60's). Willie Jay Johnson Jr. Was he the "average" boxer? well, maybe not. But I think the point is...a wrestler can beat anyone and anyone can beat a wrestler...it just depends who's faster and smarter, I guess.
And, yes, being is great shape is very important.

08-06-2000, 03:45 AM
As we said, AVERAGE. I'm sure if your teacher ran into mark coleman in a bar his punches wouldn't keep him on his feet. but coleman isn't your average wrestler, just as your teacher isn't your average martial artist.

one question, how would you know in a bar if someone was a trained grappler or not if you knocked them out as soon as they were close to you. you also should remember that guys who don't grapple will try to tackle people, but that doesn't make them grapplers, just like a guy who punches isn't a boxer just because he punches.

totallyfrozen
08-06-2000, 07:47 AM
Hmmm...well, I won't argue that. You have a point.
I guess the most I could say is the guys who tried to tackle him were put to sleep.

I guess that the actual question here is..."what is AVERAGE?"

Tru-MA
08-06-2000, 08:45 AM
Hey guys, I've actually gotten into several fights with a high school wrestler, and I managed to defeat him most of the time. I'm not at all athletic (I'm 5'7" and weigh 170 lbs., mostly fat) but the reason I won most (I use the word most because I still got clobbered a few times) of the fights was because I knew his strengths and weaknesses. Kinda good advantage, eh? Once I fought him and he used a tackle and caught me off-guard but I was lucky enough to flow with it and counter with a hip throw (hehehe) and win the fight.

ToughKey
08-06-2000, 11:15 PM
well, can a high school wrestler beat the average boxer. Even if all his hands-on ring training, if the boxer isn't prepare to defend himself against the simple takedown. Then it will be the wrestler committing the simple takedown, and then grounding, and pounding, end of story. This all has to be done in a pre-arranged fighting arena, of course. If a fight just breaks out on the streets, where the fists just starts flying, there may not be time for the wrestler to "shoot" for the waist.

MonkeySlap Too
08-07-2000, 12:21 AM
Actually, I find it pretty easy to shoot for the waist, or even executing a standing throw in the street.

The problem is this: You have to devastate with your strike in order to stop the grappler. The grappler just has to cover up or time right to get past your strikes and take you down.

I would even argue that when you speak of timing and positioning, the striker really needs all the elements the grappler does, but usuually gets less 'bang' for his buck. -Note the emphasids on usually, as this is not always true.

totallyfrozen
08-07-2000, 01:10 AM
I have to say although this question probably is one of those pointless ones like, "could God create a rock so big that He couldn't lift it", it is interesting to think about.
I would have to say that the AVERAGE highschool wrestler could beat the AVERAGE guy on the street. As far as the average boxer is concerned. It's been my experience that a highschool wrestler works out and practices his moves in the gym....the average boxer does the same. The whole point of joining a boxing club (just like a wrestling team) it to fight and compete. I don't think that you will find too many lazy, undeveloped boxers...like you might find of some of the people in a Karate dojo. The sytles of wrestling and boxing are very different and IMHO I think that it's hard to say how it would go. Boxers are trained to move quickly on their feet and to jump out of the way. Wrestlers are trained to try to grab you. I think it would end up being alot of "na na na you can't catch me" crap until someone got tired. If the wrestler is tough he might even take a few punches and just smile about it. Eventually, I think that unless they were outside with alot of room, the wrestler IS going to get a hold. That doesn't mean that he would win, though. Highschool wrestlers train to pin you...not to break your bones or choke you out. So what would he do? Sit on you until he got bored? Then he gets up and gets knocked out? Who knows. There is no answer to this...but it's fun to think about sometimes.

totallyfrozen
08-07-2000, 01:31 AM
Although I have played the Devil's Advocate here, I have to say this: NO warrior is complete without at least SOME ground training. Nearly every fight ends up on the groung (unless you are so completely fast and powerful that you can simply knock a guy out in the blink of an eye...every time).
I would not want to fight the average highschool wrestler...even if he didn't have any training beyond school team wrestling. Actually, I don't want to fight anyone..but that's beside the point.
I think that anyone who doesn't have some grappling skills is going to lose most of his/her fights. Period.
I would say this, though, no matter what the guy is doing..he is using his hands. The faster you can break his hands or fingers the faster you are going to be able to have your way with him. Even a great wrestler needs to have a strong grip. If you can break his fingers and/or hands, he can't have a strong grip. Also, I have broken a thumb in boxing...breaking a bone in your hand hurts like hell...especially when you are still trying to use that hand in a fight (which I was). It's a quick way to discourage your opponent.
That's my humble opinion.

I guess I would focus on making sure that I didn't get choked, then I would focus on not getting my arms pinned, then I would make every effort to break his fingers as fast a possible (at the first opportunity I had)...then I'd have a better chance of escape.
By the way, let me just say...after all of my rantings about boxing, I am not that "above average" boxer who could knock out a wrestler. My coach was. I am not. A wrestler would kick my can. I have taken a little Brazilian JuJitsu but I still think that the average highschool wrestler could nail me.

08-07-2000, 06:12 AM
Wrestling and boxing is a great combination. Both go hard at it and both train their asses off.

LeviathanX
08-09-2000, 10:03 PM
Your typical high school wrestler, though, doesn't have the footwork or flexibility of a martial artist. The emphasis is much different... in wrestling it is very much a sport focusing on conditioning the body, but in a real fight people tend to lose control and act without thinking. A good martial artist primarily focuses on the mind, and can take advantage of the mistakes a wrestler makes in this situation.

Personally, I would train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu over wrestling because of the more advanced ground-fighting skills involved.

nospam
08-09-2000, 10:45 PM
Why does 'in an average fight the wrestler has the advantage'?

I don't follow that one. I also think more and more, the 'average' martial school is incorporating more an dmore total body/conditioning activities.

Guess it depends on your call on what 'average' means. But..hmmm, who would come out on top? I would say the martial artist. Why? They are used to taking shots and giving shots. The a'average' wrestler doesn't get popped everyother workout. This could be exploited.

More specifically, I think the wrestler's tactics are an oversight on the average martial artists practise routine. Having someone bail in and bare down on you, caring little for any strikes or kicks, can be a surprise if you have not incorporated this type of scenario in your training.

Over all...a good question to mull around. Good post.

LeviathanX
08-09-2000, 10:57 PM
A few posts ago someone mentioned the UFC fighters. Besides Royce Gracie and maybe Ken Shamrock, I can tell you that most of the fighters there are amateurs and would be destroyed by a true master practitioner.

And about Mike Tyson... he is like Tiger Woods - he has an innate ability to do what he does, but at this point in time Tyson is more animal than man - his judgement would be greatly reduced in a real fight and I think an experienced martial artist could take him out if they were fast enough to avoid being hit. If you get hit by Tyson you are going down. I think it would be an awesome fight to see Tyson versus a Royce Gracie or a Chuck Norris (although Chuck is a bit old right now).

08-10-2000, 12:44 AM
"I don't follow that one. I also think more and more, the
'average' martial school is incorporating more an dmore total
body/conditioning activities."

No offense, but it is obvious that you have never wrestled. If you had, you wouldn't have said that.

"A few posts ago someone mentioned the UFC fighters.
Besides Royce Gracie and maybe Ken Shamrock, I can tell you
that most of the fighters there are amateurs and would be
destroyed by a true master practitioner."

My friend, you fail to realize that Royce Gracie is at the bottom of the barrel in NHB now. To call the top NHB fighters of today amateurs is a sign of ignorance on your part. Todays fighters are ten times the fighters that were around in Royce's hayday. Until I see a "master practitioner get in the ring and actually kick a top NHB fighters ass what you are saying is garbage. They have never entered after watching their cronies get their asses handed to them in easy fashion, so it would be more reasonable to say that a top NHB fighter would rip a praying mantis kung fu master limb from limb. I'm not knocking those arts, but to think they could take out these world class fighters is insane, and there is absolutly nothing to back up your claim, only evidence to the contrary.

origenx
08-11-2000, 03:30 AM
Wrestler's have a lot of practice and are good at what they do. But, like totallyfrozen said, remember that wrestling is a sport and therefore they don't learn finishing moves like chokes or armbars. Therefore, they'd probably be pretty good at gettin you down, but wouldn't know what to do once they got you there.

08-11-2000, 10:21 AM
Let me tell you, my wrestling coach has twisted me into new shapes and forms that made me wish I was never born. And besides, in a fight chances are you are going to just pound on the guy once you have him down, after all, when's the last time you saw a fight finish with an armbar?

rmata2001
08-11-2000, 10:58 AM
Your question is "Can a high school wrestler beat the average martial artist?"

Since you're asking for opinions and pov's, I will share mine. 9 out of 10 times, the high school wrestler, and I'll add boxers as well, will beat the crop out of the "average" martial artist. Why? Conditioning for one, knowledge and application of technique for another. Wrestlers and boxers, on a whole, train better than your "average" martial artist. They practice, drill, condition and hone what works until it's automatic, second nature to them. They train to hit and know what it's like to get hit.

origenx
08-12-2000, 03:46 AM
vitor29 - true. A good ol-fashioned face-bashing ain't no picnic either...

macdawg
08-12-2000, 01:04 PM
Wow, you think bruce Lee could take out Tyson? No way pal, First of all he is outsized, second of all he trains soley to land bombs on people's faces and would do the same to Lee, the only chance is a clinch and takedown and pound on him or break his arm or choke him. Average wrestler would kill the average McDojo guy because they train harder and have takedowns and could ground and pound those guys.

Water Dragon
08-13-2000, 07:57 AM
Two words--Fireman's carry

LeviathanX
08-13-2000, 06:08 PM
Mike Tyson knows one thing... how to box. He has zero strategic intelligence at this point, and is merely working on instinct and innate ability. Mike Tyson is NOT omnipotent... remember the Evander Holyfield fight? Bruce Lee, on the other hand, was a master of strategy and had a much wider repetoire than Tyson.

Personally, I believe Bruce Lee could take a few hits from Tyson before he went down. Bruce used to get in street fights all the time, and would ALWAYS win. He could take a hit.

Strategy almost always wins over brute force.

origenx
08-13-2000, 10:42 PM
I think Bruce might have been outmatched inhis first encounter with Tyson. He would have stood a good chance of losing, or at least not dominating and having a draw. But, I think it might have become a revelatory experience like his fight against Wong Jack Man. He probably would have realized the limitations of superb athletic conditioning, when matched against another athlete of same or better. It might have spurred him into the internal arts more, in his continuing evolution as a martial artist. One thing that made Bruce such a champion fighter was his overpowering drive to become the best, and the ability to constantly find ways to achieve that. I think regardless of the outcome of his first match against Tyson, the result would have been that it would have only driven Bruce to find a way to beat him eventually, if at all possible.

Remember, in his last days, he had already progressed to the point where he was literally fighting pro-athlete giants (Kareem)! Ordinary men were already simply no match for him!

origenx
08-13-2000, 10:46 PM
Also, keep in mind that in a streetfight, without gloves, you can actually break your hands when punching someone in the face. Which is what happened to Tyson when he got into a club fight. So, your boxing training can actually work against you somewhat...

kungfuswack
08-13-2000, 10:51 PM
What a strange discussion. A high school wrestler or boxer IS a martial artist. Simply because it's traditionally european, and doesn't end in fu or do or bo doesn't disgualify it from status as a fighting system. I would highly suggest that every ryu karate and tae kwon do person, regardless of your belt, PLEASE, study wrestling, boxing, mui-thai, and jiu-jitsu, all MARTIAL ARTS with high emphasis on conditioning and hard sparring, and you'll be in a much better position in an actual fight.

J.L.BLACKSTONE
08-14-2000, 05:48 PM
I DONT KNOW WHY THIS QUESTION IS KEEP BEING ASKED. UNLESS THE GRAPPLER IS VERY SPECIAL
A CHOP TO HIS CROTCH BEFORE GOING DOWN,WHILE GOING DOWN AND ONCE ONE ORIENTATES THEMSELF QUICKLY WHEN HITTING THE GROUND IS USUALLY
SUFFICIENT, THERE ARE ALSO CHOPS AND JABS
TO THE THROAT THIS DEPENDS ON YOUR .SITUATION AWARENESS; . IF THE GRAPPLER IS TOUGH AND FIT OR WHETHER ITS A DRUNK ECT.THE
DRUNK IS MORE DANGEROUS AS THEY CANT FEEL PAIN

08-14-2000, 09:18 PM
"UNLESS THE GRAPPLER IS VERY SPECIAL
A CHOP TO HIS CROTCH BEFORE GOING DOWN,WHILE
GOING DOWN AND ONCE ONE ORIENTATES THEMSELF
QUICKLY WHEN HITTING THE GROUND IS USUALLY
SUFFICIENT"

Oh god, I love the way you make fighting a trained athlete seem so easy, it's always "just do this, just do that". You'll be in for a rude awakening if you ever find yourself in a real situation, because anyone who talks that way about a fight can't have ever been in a real one.

origenx
08-14-2000, 10:39 PM
kungfuswack - good point - how often we forget that boxing and wrestling ARE martial arts. Except they've been somewhat watered-down into sports, but they still work well for what they're worth...

totallyfrozen
08-15-2000, 10:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LeviathanX:

Personally, I would train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu over wrestling because of the more advanced ground-fighting skills involved.[/quote]

I agree on that one...if those are your choices. I studied Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu for little while. The problem that I have with it is...usually if you are attacked, the cowardly nerd attacking you has a friend or two and usually (almost everytime) you aren't going to get to fight someone while everyone else stands around and watches (unless you are in a school yard during recess or something). Usually, you will have to fight 2 or more people at once. Grappling doesn't allow for this.

My instructor was a South American man, in his early 60s, about 5'6" or so...near 200lbs. Once while he was fishing, last summer, he was harrassed by a couple of G.I.s (I live in Anchorage, Alaska and we have an Army base here "Fort Richardson"). The young soldier (early 20's) agreed to follow my instructor to a small, flat grassy area away from the river bank and they fought while the soldier's friend (another soldier) stood back and watched. The soldier had appearently taken some wrestling in school or something. My instructor ended up beating him (with a choke)...but it took 8 minutes. This fight was a total freak accident if you ask me.

My instructor is lucky that the other soldier didn't get into with him also, not to mention they could have pulled a knife on him.

In my opinion, my instructor was lucky. The only reason that the fight worked out the way it did is because they were soldiers and it was the old "honor" thing....2 warriors in a battle to see who the best man was. Had my instructor been jumped by street punks, I doubt he would have had the luxury to grapple for 8 minutes with one man.

Needless to say, I don't study that art anymore...I didn't believe that it was practical for the street in a modern society.
Besides, you can't always lead your prey to a grassy knoll to fight and a back full of sharp gravel can be your worst enemy sometimes.

Also, although this story may be interesting...remember...it was a one-in-a-million chance. Most people, soldiers included, wouldn't stand around watching you beat their friend. My instructor was lucky.
He might not be next time.

[This message has been edited by totallyfrozen (edited 08-16-2000).]

totallyfrozen
08-15-2000, 11:00 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vitor29:

"A few posts ago someone mentioned the UFC fighters.
Besides Royce Gracie and maybe Ken Shamrock, I can tell you
that most of the fighters there are amateurs and would be
destroyed by a true master practitioner."

My friend, you fail to realize that Royce Gracie is at the bottom of the barrel in NHB now. To call the top NHB fighters of today amateurs is a sign of ignorance on your part. Todays fighters are ten times the fighters that were around in Royce's hayday. Until I see a "master practitioner get in the ring and actually kick a top NHB fighters ass what you are saying is garbage. They have never entered after watching their cronies get their asses handed to them in easy fashion, so it would be more reasonable to say that a top NHB fighter would rip a praying mantis kung fu master limb from limb. I'm not knocking those arts, but to think they could take out these world class fighters is insane, and there is absolutly nothing to back up your claim, only evidence to the contrary.[/quote]

You make some very good points and I like you post. Let's remember that while the UFC is pretty brutal it is still a sport (i.e. there are rules). Some of the rules include: No eye gouging
No biting
No strikes to the croch.
No wearing rings or jewelry
These are attacks that WOULD be used in a actual streetfight. I would say that most of the kung-fu "masters" (especially the old ones) have spent their lives training for actual fights not sport fights. Sure they are tough and fast..but eye gouging, bites, and croch hits are very real, very effective attacks.
UFC is brutal and tough...but still a sport. For example, Rocye Gracie wouldn't have been able to do some of the things he did if he got bit, hit in the chimes, or poked in the eyes. Grappling gets you in VERY close...biting range.
I'm sure that those guys wear nut cups...but who wears a nut cup walking down the street? If the UFC wanted to be a real fight..they would have rules like:
No gi or uniform...only street clothes (denim jeans are much tighter than a gi)
No nut cups
No mouth pieces
No tape on your hands
No stopping the fight when you bleed

UFC is a sport.

[This message has been edited by totallyfrozen (edited 08-16-2000).]

totallyfrozen
08-15-2000, 11:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J.L.BLACKSTONE:
THE DRUNK IS MORE DANGEROUS AS THEY CANT FEEL PAIN[/quote]

Well, I don't mean to sound like I'm talking down to you but...I spent a few years as an EMT (Emergency Medical Technician). One of the jobs I had was to "babysit" drunks in the city's "drunk tank". We used to ride around in a van and pick up people who were drunk in public (usually the homeless as the "normal" folks had homes to go to and could catch a cab).

Drunks are definitely NOT more dangerous. I found them to be much easier to defend against than a sober person. Drunks are disoriented...even while standing still. They are VERY slow. They are easily confused (as they are halfway confused right from the start since they are drunk).

We often had to fight in self defense because NO BODY likes to be "arrested" off the street and detained against their will until they are sober.

The hardest "drunk" that I had to fight, while I was a medic, was a guy who was on methanphetamine (speed). This guy was very hyped and aggressive. I hadn't taken any BJJ (Brazilian JuJitsu) then. I hadn't taken anything but some American boxing. He was quite a bit taller than me and heavier too. He made a grab for me and I had to act fast. I pulled him to me with the arm he grabbed me with and, since I was shorter, this made him bend over. I wrapped my arm over his head (a headlock) so that his head was behind me and his body in front. Then I just quickly laid down on my stomach (so that he was face down on the floor...on his stomach also). Our heads were together and our feet at opposite ends. Then I simply brought the other arm over and put him in a good old Japanese choke hold (you know, your standard JuiJitsu choke). I was able then to twist my right forearm like a valve to give him air or cut if off. Since my feet were opposite of his, for him to sit or stand up, he would have had to raise my entire body (150lbs at the time) with his neck...no way he could do that. I choked him and when he tapped out, I told him that if he didn't sit still while my team put leather restraints on his hands and feet that I would just twist my arm again and turn his air off. It only took one demonstration of what I was talking about for him to realize that I could do it and that he was screwed. That was the end of that one. We locked him in restraints and kept him until the police arrived and took him to jail.
I basically shut him down with 2 moves.
Yes, drunks feel pain...and everybody needs air.

Be careful if you ever DO have to choke out a drunk. Their body systems are slowed down by the alcohol and if they are super drunk...they might not start breathing again on their own. Only choke them enough to get submission or a chance to escape...because their bodies systems are slow and weak they are easy to kill...especially if you interrupt their air flow or heart beat pattern. This means that "sleeper" holds are dangerous too. I'm not saying don't fight if you have to...I'm just saying don't kill if you don't have to...don't be sloppy or mean and kill someone if you don't absolutely HAVE to.
I'm not sh*tting you on this!

There are some drugs which will deaden pain. PCP is one of them (also called "Angel Dust"). If you are confronted and you KNOW that the person is on PCP...don't try to fight them just run and call the cops. PCP is an elephant tranquilizer and when humans use it, it causes a number of bad things. Some of the bad things are the feeling of being Superman, the feeling of being able to fly, not feeling any pain, being abnormally (almost inhumanly) strong among other things. We had a guy on PCP here a few years back (I'm 30) and it took 6 police officers and 2 paramedics to hold this guy down so he could be strapped to the gurnie. PCP users have been stabbed, hit with sticks, even shot and didn't notice it. The are extremely strong while on PCP.
Honestly, don't try to fight that guy...you need alot more manpower to control 'em. Just run fast and call the cops.

Once again, I apologize if I sounded like I was talking down to you or giving you the "father knows best" lecture. That was not my intention.

Take Care.

[This message has been edited by totallyfrozen (edited 08-16-2000).]

totallyfrozen
08-15-2000, 11:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by macdawg:
Wow, you think Bruce Lee could take out Tyson? No way pal, First of all he is outsized, second of all he trains soley to land bombs on people's faces and would do the same to Lee, the only chance is a clinch and takedown and pound on him or break his arm or choke him.
[/quote]

I don't want to insult your knowledge but you sound as though you've never seen Bruce Lee in action.
There is a documentary video (the name escapes me and I'm too lazy to run down stairs and look for it now) which shows Bruce Lee at a national karate demonstration in the late 50's. This is where he demonstrates the "floating punch" (the "one inch punch"). It's not a fairy tale or a rumor...it's on video you can see it.
Bruce Lee was 5'8" and 150lbs. and I watched him on this documentary video kick a 300lbs heavy bag up to the ceiling that it was hanging from. I also watched him "one inch punch" a 200lbs or so man and knock him back 6 feet.
In a nutshell, I'm saying that Bruce Lee could have punched just as hard as Mike Tyson and probably could have done it much, much faster.
Watch the video before you decided that Bruce Lee was fake, average, or whatever.

Bruce Lee was an honest to goodness bad ass and on this documentary were a number of interviews. One of the interviews was with the grandmaster of Tae Kwon Do (I don't recall his name now...you'll have to watch it). He said..flat out...that he would NEVER be willing to step into the ring with Bruce Lee. And this was the grandmaster of Tae Kwon Do!

Bruce Lee was not simply a movie star like Jackie Chan....he could and did win ALOT of streetfights in his day. In fact, the way he came to America was because after (and before, actually) he studied Wing Chun with Yip Man, he was a gangbanger and got into alot of trouble with the law in Hong Kong for fighting so his father sent him to live with his uncle in Seattle for awhile (if my memory serves me right). Bruce Lee was a real streetfighter and not a phony or just a choreograped (spell that right?) movie fighter.

Do your homework.

totallyfrozen
08-15-2000, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kungfuswack:
What a strange discussion. A high school wrestler or boxer IS a martial artist. Simply because it's traditionally european, and doesn't end in fu or do or bo doesn't disgualify it from status as a fighting system. I would highly suggest that every ryu karate and tae kwon do person, regardless of your belt, PLEASE, study wrestling, boxing, mui-thai, and jiu-jitsu, all MARTIAL ARTS with high emphasis on conditioning and hard sparring, and you'll be in a much better position in an actual fight.[/quote]


AMEN! I couldn't have said it better! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

origenx
08-15-2000, 10:28 PM
totallyfrozen - I'd like to know the name of that Bruce Lee documentary so I can go buy it. Mind lookin at it for me next time you go downsatirs?

Yeah, kickin a 300-lb bag up to the ceiling is f*ckin impressive. I would really like to see that!

BTW - I think I've used that same "guillotine" choke more or less on someone in class - except I ended up layin side-by-side with him. it still worked, tho...

And good point about choking/killing someone. One thing we were taught in wrestling class is how to revive someone in case they black out after you choke them. It's fairly simple - you sit them up and massage deeply up and down their chest/lungs (while stooped behind them). However, it can mean saving the guy's life. I think they should teach that first in every class before they teach you how to choke someone out.

08-15-2000, 11:58 PM
Yes, the UFC is most definitly a sport.

"Rocye Gracie wouldn't have been able to do some of the
things he did if he got bit, hit in the chimes, or poked in the
eyes."

Actually, nut shots were allowed when Royce competed. Another thing, biting and clawing eyes doesn't take skills. So if these guys have to resort to these tactics then it would just expose the holes in their art, right?

totallyfrozen
08-16-2000, 12:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vitor29:
...if these guys have to resort to these tactics then it would just expose the holes in their art, right?[/quote]

Well, I don't actually think so. Fighting is fighting...combat is combat. If you limit what you will let yourself do, then you are making holes in your own art, I believe.
Let me make one thing clear; however, I am not advocating killing someone unnecessarily. If you do...even if you HAVE TO you will most likely go to prison.
True, biting and eye gouging might not be considered "skills" but they are effective tactics. I'm not sure that using them indicates a weak point in a style. Bruce Lee seemed to think that they were accpetable weapons...he even mentioned tickling once (to get out of a hold during a grapple).

Highlander
08-16-2000, 10:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vitor29:
Another thing, biting and clawing eyes doesn't take skills. So if these guys have to resort to these tactics then it would just expose the holes in their art, right?[/quote]

The skill in Kung Fu is not in the technique or the target. The skill is in the ability to flow from one technique to another and to find a target from any position. (This is over simplified for the sake of this discussion.) A Kung Fu person would not attack with the intent of doing a forearm strike to the groin, but if he found himself with his forearm trapped between an opponents knees, he might shoot it upward and strike. If a Kung Fu person found himself with both arms tied up but one hand near the eye, he might gouge the eyes to escape. The skilled Kung Fu person is taught to take what is given. The skill isn't the ability to gain position for a strike, it is to strike from any position. Therefore, eliminating targets and techniques create safe zones where a Kung Fu person can be manipulated into a position where they can't strike. Additionally, even though using these safe zone in the ring is quite legit, the person using them must be aware that they are at risk on the streets in these positions.

By the way, this isn't a "Why Kung Fu doesn't enter the UFC", or "Why they don't do well in NHB" post. I am not trying to make excuses, I am just stating one Kung Fu persons position on these types of strike and their usefulness. So please don't make this post into something it's not.

08-17-2000, 12:42 AM
I gets me is when people act as if only these stand up fighters can bite. I guarentee you, if I have you down and you bite me, you will get it back worse. Biting and clawing are not legitimate escapes, if you don't get the desired reaction then you have just given the other guy an idea. Not a smart thing to do when he is controlling you.

kungfuswack
08-17-2000, 04:44 AM
Vitor29, according to Tom Cruse, who's seminar I attended a few months ago, biting should only be attempted when you're in control of your opponent, like a tight clinch or a hugging guard, especially his head, for obvious reasons, or if his head is far enough away from you to not be a major bite threat, like if you screw up a double leg take down, but have him around the waste. If he's strong, you're in bad shape, but a hard, ripping bite to a love handle or uggg, pec, could free you up for a second, for some knees and elbows. Also, a bite is best if it's prolonged, he recomended 10 seconds at least, rips open skin, and is used as a shock, to get some pain and lots of blood going, then followed up with, and probably part of a more destructive flurry of knees, elbows and punches. Also, I think the assuption is that, in the street, you don't need to give your opponant ideas, he's got them already, you can just beat him to the punch, so to speak. I don't know if it would work, but I definatly don't think it's a "work all the time, anytime" type of thing.

origenx
08-17-2000, 10:42 PM
Hey, tickling or pinching when wrestling can work sometimes!

I'd be hesitant about biting someone these days - especially with AIDs and Hep C floating around everywhere...

yungak
08-22-2000, 03:18 PM
Bruce Lee VS Any wrestler. Hmmm tough call.

shimera
09-26-2000, 06:44 AM
this is what i don't like about, the way your average MA education goes... i call it Americanization. the process most arts have gone through to be made easier to learn for fat slobbering americans. they focus entirely on physical stuff like learning they ignore understanding... and why do you do something if you aren't going to do it right? why don't they do real conditioning? reasons? becuase its sports now.. they meet 3 times a week for an hour every week...

i think that traditionally practioner's of MA have put allot more into physical conditioning than what most do today.

me personally i train hard every day by running several miles then spending several hours going through forms and practicing other stuff to help me improve my strength, endurence, and reaction times. plus i lift weights for an hour every day.

uchi mata
09-27-2000, 12:37 PM
I dont think a high school wrestler would win a fight over a kung fu guy more times than not.Lets say for entertainment purposes a division one wrestler vs. a kung fu guy.Well someone is going to get taken down and beaten 9 times out of 10.They train LIVE full boar no forms or whatever they run tremendous distances and do lots of power lifting.My money is on the d1 wrestler every time.

shimera
09-27-2000, 04:03 PM
yes but if the martial artist is trained the same way then the tables should be turned. thats why i think that if more martial artist took their training seriously this argument wouldn't even exist. besides... if you keep the wrestler at kicking range you should be allright. they aren't used to that kind of thing.... just don't let him get you on the mat.

8stepsifu
09-27-2000, 08:02 PM
wrestler vs. kung fu.

hmm.
High school wrestler vs. kung fu guy of as many years training.

Division 1 college wrestlers are like the Sifus of wrestling, A high school wrestler vs. a Sifu? No way. The Sifu would have a definit advantage. I know an awesome wrestler with legs like tree trunks that I'm sure could kick some serious ass. Another thing to consider is that at the last Tiger Balm Tourney in B.C. the Gold Medal winner of 18 and up blackbelt San Shou was a college wrestler. He just body slammed people until the couldn't go on. His expert advice to me (I came in third) was....Make your legs big......like trees. So guess what?..Thats what I'm going to do. I have a lot of respect for wrestlers and would sooner train with them than the average guy that claims to do kung fu. If I ever find a real kung fu guy/girl. That will be another story. Until then, I'll be busy making my legs...like trees /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

8Step Sifu

GinSueDog
09-28-2000, 08:12 PM
You would be amazed by the abilities of a good wrestler, or boxer for that matter and on average the average wrestler or boxer against the average Kung Fu or karate stylist, the wrestler or boxer would be the clear favorite to win. This isn't always the case though as it really depends on the training and conditioning as well as the experience of the individual. The average wrestler or boxer is going to have ten times or more experience with actually using there techniques and will know the limits of there abilities that much better then the average Kung Fu or Karate stylist. This is simply due to the nature and level of there training. It could go either way though take a good San Shou fighter like Cheung Le for example would be able to more then hold his own against all but the biggest and most skilled boxers, why, because he has just as much experience with his techniques and abilities as the boxer and as good as the boxer is most likely has no experience in defending against the techniques often used in San Shou. It all depends on the training, I don't practice Kung Fu, but if Kung Fu was practiced with a more combative sport mindset using more intense training method you would end up getting something like San Shou which at its core seems to be very effective in it's environment.

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

shimera
09-29-2000, 01:19 AM
one thing i think you constantly overlook is when boosting boxing and wrestling is that they are used to fighting ppl who employ the same skills. not ppl who employ a variety of technicques.

GinSueDog
09-29-2000, 01:50 AM
Sir Kemera,
I think Bruce Lee once said something to the effect of, I could teach you a hundred techniques and make you a good fighter or I could teach you four or five and make you a great fighter. Boxers are simply good at what they do, but you could insert whatever sport or style that has the same level of training as a good boxing gym and get the same results, Muay Thai, San Shou, wrestling, Sambo, etc. The list goes on, they all have one thing in common besides being sports is that they all train at a higher level then the average martial arts studio.-ED

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

vingtsunstudent
09-29-2000, 03:02 PM
if i can interupt(and probably fire things up)
what if a high scool wrestler blah blah blah.....can i just say that 99% of "what ifs" never happen.
when you mention young people (you should always remember that there are many more factors that figure in a fight)you should remember that a lot of them are not mentally as focesed as people who are a bit older & a bit wiser & have fought a few more times.
these things in themselves could mean a fight between young people could go either way whether they are trained or not.
vts
ps i heard that beach girl barbie could take out commando ken all because of that 1 month of grappling she learnt while on the beach in rio.
can someone please tell me if something like this could be happening in this sick & twisted world.

shimera
10-01-2000, 05:33 AM
i wouldn't mind grappling with beach girl barbie...... whoops did i say that out loud?
-----

i think that i mentioned that if the average ma studio would train harder you would find that this arguement wouldn't exist... hehehe unfortuntly the average ma studio sucks, as far as whipping bodies into shape. luckily i haven't had to follow the average path.

Longquan
10-01-2000, 11:12 PM
I wrestled in high school (was pretty decent).

I have taken kf at a small school in the suburbs.

If you take two 18 yr old males with the same height/weight/build and overall health after four years of wrestling and kung fu, the wrestler will win. Experience counts...

If the kf student fought competitively for a year after three years of training, he will win.

Kung Fu is technically superior but many exponents lack fighting experience.

"Whatever happened to
wildin out and being
violent,
Whatever happened to
catchin a good
old-fashioned passionate
Ass whoopin and getting
your shoes, coat, and
your hat tooken"

-Eminem "Marshall
Mathers" The Marshall
Mathers LP

tsb
10-02-2000, 12:08 AM
Why is it that many of the responses seem to assume that wrestlers are able to take a well placed and timed punch, kick, or knee or elbow strike? I believe anyone can have a glass jaw, correct? Granted the level of physical conditioning, speed, and technique is high among wrestlers, they do not train to defend themselves against strikes, which gives the martial artist the advantage.

SifuAbel
10-02-2000, 09:57 AM
Usually, I don't like answering post like these because the generalizations are endless. And, stereotypes are the most that people have to offer.


If we are going to talk about average, then lets identify what average is. Most times the average reflects the closest middle to a range. A middle range in most styles is a purple belt. A purple belt isn't the best exponent of a style. This person would not have the needed control for the match.

Are we then talking about the average blackbelt? Unfortunatly, in this the country of the McSchool and the 1 1/2 year blackbelt, the average blackbelt standards has taken a nose dive. If we are talking about a seasoned MA practitioner with real experience then I would say no; the highschool guy doesn't have a chance. If were are then talking about fighting against the lower rung hobby MAist then yes the high school guy will win. Although, he might not find it to be a walk in the park.

All this boils down to conditioning, who has got the better game and how many advantages can you stack in your favor.

Its dangerous to think your immortal.
sifuabel@aol.com

uchi mata
10-02-2000, 10:15 AM
mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaabbb bbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbbllllllllllllllllllllllll leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee where are you?

SifuAbel
10-02-2000, 09:15 PM
cccccccccccccuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuccccccccccchhhhhhhiii i

Why?o

Its dangerous to think your immortal.
sifuabel@aol.com

yamato_damashii
10-08-2000, 02:15 PM
We already brought up the point that boxing and wrestling are martial arts (or, at least as much as judo and tae kwon do are, anyway...).

MY clarification, though, is--does this question refer to the "average MARTIAL ARTIST", or the "average GUY WHO TAKES A MARTIAL ARTS CLASS"?
Going to class three times a week, even having an umpteenth degree Black Scarf with Matching Handbag, does NOT qualify you as a "martial artist".

Jason C. Diederich
Pax Nobiscum

Jabe
10-20-2000, 02:38 AM
Let pretend that "Adverage" in this case means that both fighters are equality trained in their choice of systems. They both train as much as the other, and as hard as the other. Now, lets analize each system. You must also consider that all have their weakness'.

Your boxer has two very deseptive strikes. The "hook" and the "upper cut", yet when they throw their punches the heel of the back foot comes off the ground causing them to lose power.

Your wrestler has to be able to shoot extreamly well to do anything and I think against a boxer they would most likely have no problem. But against an asain style martial artist they are going to have more trouble just for the simple fact that these types of defences are not thought of in "boxing" yet are in most asian style martial arts. (More rules in boxing)

Now, here's where the **** gets thick (pardon the french.) Keep in mind that I study Fung Fu.
(Very similer to in the Matrix.) Like I said, I think that a martial artist has a better chance over the boxer against a wrestler, accept the
Tea Kwon Do guys :-) because they leave room in their trainning for these types of defences. All it would take is a good stomp kick, dragon kick, pe chin, or sword arm to stop someone at shooting in on you. A boxers best move would have to be the upper cut.

All-in-all, it just matters on who is on the top of their game is that peticular situation. Beings that their all equality trainned and adverage.

Tiger Moon
10-20-2000, 11:35 AM
Well you never know. To me i would say that i certainly don't think a wrestler has an advantage. But i would say the True Martial Artist could probably beat a wrestler with no contest, but you never know alot of things can keep someone from winning a fight, either mentally or physically. Like for instance a wrestler is very good at grappling type moves and if the martial artist is not great in strength or never emphasized alot on grappling moves, then i would say if the wrestler gets a hold of the Martial Artist then chances are they probably would be done for. A wrestler does empahsize alot of physical activities, but Martial Arts does as well if not even 10 times more. There are so many things to learn when being involved in the martial arts. But of course if you don't train hard day in and day out the odds would be against you, but the same goes with the Wrestler. So thats why there are so many things to seperate who wins or loses in my opinion, thats the main thing of fighting you never know the outcome till the fight is over. Anyone disagree???

--Tiger Moon--

mild7
10-20-2000, 03:28 PM
Jabe,
are you sure that stopping a shoot would be that easy? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I've never seen anyone stop a wrestler from shooting in with a kick. A punch.. maybe.

I suppose if it's a sloppy wrestler who does'nt shoot in fast and low.. then your stomp kick could work. So there is some truth in what you say. We're talking not-so-good wrestlers here right?

10-20-2000, 03:37 PM
"besides... if you keep the wrestler at kicking range you should be allright. they aren't used to that kind
of thing.... just don't let him get you on the mat"

And KF guys aren't used to defending takedowns, it's a lot harder to keep a guy ffrom closing in on you than you make it seem.

"Granted the level of physical conditioning, speed, and technique is high among wrestlers, they do not
train to defend themselves against strikes, which gives the martial artist the advantage."

as I just said, KF and such arts don't train to defend against takedowns, which IMO puts them at a disadvantage.

PeteB
10-21-2000, 01:44 AM
Shuai Jiao is about throwing and avoiding being taken down. If you go to any Shuai Jiao competition you'll see opponents constantly avoid takedowns (wether they be double legs, single legs, yes kung fu has those to). As for someone shooting in. At my kung fu school we practice sprawling to get away from takedowns (where it's necessary). We practice groundfighting (even have wrestlers in the class and we get together and "roll" for a little while). If you style is complete you'll have the knowledge to get away from those takedowns. If you get taken down you'll be able to defend yourself. As always, it just comes down to practice. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

When man is born he is soft and weak; When man dies he becomes stiff and hard. Thus, the stiff and unyielding follow death; The soft and yielding follow life.

Jabe
10-23-2000, 06:39 AM
Mild,
No Im not sure. Because in any situation you can't really predict what is going to happen. I actually learned that in my first tournament this past weekend and what ever you plan on doing before the situation breaks out you do the complete opisite (Spelling?). So, to kind of re-state where I stand with it. I think that in this seneirio the wrestler would probably win. The training is just completely different. The mind-set is more geared to real situation fighting. A martial artist can't possibly train in a real environment because someone will end up either dead or in the hospital. I placed 4th in that tournament BTW
Jabe

Dreamer
11-05-2000, 12:31 AM
A wrestler has a kind of all around training but what about a boxer. He isn't trained to avoid kicks, tackles, grappling, throwing and so on.
He is only trained in moving fast and boxing fast and hard. The Martial Artist would have an advantage but no one can tell who'd win.

I don't suffer from nsanity. I enjoy every minute of it.

11-05-2000, 03:11 AM
"Kung Fu is technically superior but many exponents lack fighting experience."

JUST because they do katas and pretty looking moves doesn't make it technically superior.

"All it would take is a good stomp kick, dragon kick, pe
chin, or sword arm to stop someone at shooting in on you. "

Yes thats all. sounds easy, but it isn't that way in reality. Why do you rarely see a good shooter get stopped or even caught by a kick in NHB? Don't say "because the UFC is a sport" because kicks are perfectly legal. Sure it is possible, but it isn't likely.

" A wrestler
does empahsize alot of physical activities, but Martial Arts does as well if not even 10 times more."

Yeah right, you've obviously never wrestled in a serious club.

The bottom line is that we are talking AVERAGE here, and the truth of the matter is that the average M.Artist is a guy who just does it for a bit of activity a few days a week, but a wrestler trains hardcore because competition is everything, most of them aren't doing it just for a hobby

Braden
11-05-2000, 09:53 AM
Kung fu doesn't defend against takedowns?

****... wish I could figure out what I was studying then.

Braden
11-05-2000, 09:59 AM
http://www.hsing-i.com/school_awards/KuoShu5.jpg

http://www.sanshou.com/60final3.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/52final6.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/56final.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/56final2.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/56final5.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/65final2.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/65final4.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/75final3.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/75final2.JPG

http://www.sanshou.com/hwfinal4.JPG

[This message was edited by Braden on 11-06-00 at 03:10 AM.]

GinSueDog
11-06-2000, 07:41 PM
As many of your Kung Fu brothers have said in the pass, San Shou is not Kung Fu, so those pictures don't count;) Actually, if all Kung Fu trained like that, or just the majority then we wouldn't even be discussing this.-ED /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The grappling arts imply most fights end up on the ground...take them there. The striking arts imply all fights start standing up...keep them there. The mixed martial arts imply any fight can go anywhere...be ready and able to go everywhere."-a mix martial artist

Braden
11-06-2000, 09:22 PM
GSD - No, sanshou isn't kungfu. It's a training method used by kungfu systems. The above fighters are trained in systems such as xingyi and mantis, and are using sanshou as a training method. Every chinese system, taught in it's entirety, contains sanshou.

Sanshou "isn't kungfu" when people mix and match techniques and train in that "technique salad" specifically to compete in sanshou tournaments, rather than training in a kungfu system and using the sanshou as a training format. Not that it isn't good then; it just isn't kungfu. As you know, many people use non-chinese systems for sanshou, in this manner.

I think that clarifies my opinions as to whether or not those pictures count.

Regarding whether or not most kungfu practitioners practice their whole systems - I agree with your assessment of the situation. However, I don't see that this is a phenomena limited to kungfu, or even disproportionately prevalent in it.

I have personally seen clubs claiming to teach BJJ who actually taught nothing but rubbish, charged outrageous fees, and produced useless fighters. Ditto twice over for Muay Thai. Ditto a hundred fold for JKD. When confronted with these situations, BJJ-proponents (or whatever) usually reply, "Yes, but that's not BJJ. That's just someone ripping people off to get money, so it doesn't count."

But I feel the exact same way about bad kungfu schools.

-Braden.

P.S. For interest's sake, the top picture is of koushou, not sanshou. I would prefer to have made them all koushou, as I think sanshou is a little silly. Unfortunately, koushou doesn't have the popularity, and I couldn't find that many pictures. The difference between the two is that the koushou guys where grappler-style gloves, a groin cup, and boxing head gear with a pair of wires over the nose (sanshou guys wear those ridiculous boxer gloves, and they pad up like crazy on their shins and everything); also, koushou allows more techniques such as elbows and knees, not to mention the world of techniques opened up by ditching those silly mitts.

Three_Eyed_Kronos
11-06-2000, 10:02 PM
hmmm, I'd say "yes" if you have a bit of speed. Keep your distance, everytime he tries to tackle you knee him in the head or elbow smash his temple. If he gets close then you're in some trouble though. And wrestlers shouldn't put more effort into training than someone learning Kung-Fu. You should be training ALL the time. If you can't be bothered, then don't think you're gonna win any more fights than you did when you weren't training and expect to be battered....

MonkeySlap Too
11-08-2000, 03:11 AM
San Shou isn't Kung Fu? Talk about splitting hairs. Tell that to the Chinese military - they'll laugh buckets as they toss you around.

True San Shou is a viewed as a 'training' exercise by traditionalists (hey I agree), and I do prefer the ACSCA rules or Kuo Shu rules to San Shou rules, but San Shou by itself is pretty good stuff.

Also - all styles started as salad bar styles - a little of this, a little of that and a lot of training and experience. Only the need for secrecy and competitivness between groups combined with a touch of cult like behavior created this concept of a 'pure' style.

The evaluation is how effective is it, not what is it. The old Chinese masters thought this way, and we should not allow racial foolishness or a desire to define ourselves as something better than the next guy to prevent ourselves from seeing the truth right in front of us.

I am not oppossed to learning more no matter where the idea comes from. Why limit yourself?

***********************************************

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

edziak
11-09-2000, 09:29 AM
A wrestler may be able to out grapple a martial artist and a boxer may be able to out punch a martial artist, but he can't defend against a simple low kick. That's a huge hole. Try walking, let alone fighting with a separated kneecap or a broken ankle.

The same goes for UFC fighters. What kind of reaction do you think a martial artist would get if he stepped into a ring and deliberatly shattered another fighters nuckles, destroyed one of his joints, struck for the eyes, or even kicked to the groin? Martial arts are designed to deal with actual situations involving people who want to do horrible things to you. Don't think that because a you don't see martial artists in NHB competions that they are chumps. Putting a martial artist in a ring, any ring, is about as realistic as asking me to do hirin sao with boxing gloves on. It's not a ligitmate test of the art or the artist.

Not that I mean any dissrespect to the Shamrocks or Gracies, those gus could kick my ass in a heartbeat /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Master Po
11-09-2000, 05:03 PM
Accually people get their joints messed up in MMA all the time. The first few that come to mind are Renzo Gracie getting his elbow dislocated by Sakuraba, John Lober getting his leg broke by Takata <sp>, and lots of broken hands. Also Sylva kicking Yevl <sp> in the groin last pride looked really painful. I totally agree that MMA is very different from a "fight for your life against all odds" type fight. MMA is much more fun /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

11-10-2000, 05:59 AM
"he same goes for UFC fighters. What kind of reaction do you think a martial artist would get if he
stepped into a ring and deliberatly shattered another fighters nuckles, destroyed one of his joints, struck
for the eyes, or even kicked to the groin? Martial arts are designed to deal with actual situations
involving people who want to do horrible things to you."


You actually train by having people try to gouge your eyes out and break your joints? I didn't think so

DragonzRage
11-11-2000, 08:29 AM
An average practitioner of legitimate martial arts will have a lot of useful REAL fighting technique. What wrestlers do is a bunch of BS that does not pertain to real fighting at all. I'm sorry, but there is simply no way you can pull off the "Stone Cold Stunner" or a moonsault body press in real fighting. Besides, wrestlers only know how to fake hit. They don't hit for real.

On the other hand, the average martial artist is also an average size guy of average strength. Average wrestlers, such as Stone Cold Steve Austin and Triple H are very big guys whose muscles are pumped to the max with steroid enhanced strength. That would be a hard obstacle for the average martial artist to overcome. That's all we can really say about this subject I think /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You won't lose much if you go only halfway, but you won't win much either.

ATENG
11-12-2000, 07:46 PM
dragonzrage

i hope you're kidding.

---------------------
Its all fun and games til someone loses an
eye. Then its just fun.

Master Po
11-13-2000, 12:10 AM
hahahahahahaahhahahaa

bustr
11-15-2000, 09:04 PM
What about crossface holds or stiff-arming the wrestler's shoulders as he shoots. Are these allowed in scholastic wrestling? I know there are penalties for stalling. Would stiff-arming instead of sprawling be considered a stall. Also Chris Clugston has a technique called the matador which is a fade and double-handed parry to the back of the shooters head and neck. Are wrestlers trained to deal with these defenses?

11-25-2000, 04:00 AM
you gotta see the shoot coming and if all you know are those two tactics there is a good chance he will get you down anyway.

doug maverick
11-30-2000, 09:02 PM
well i'm just speaking for chinese M.A. i dont know about others high school wresting is romen greco and it is genarally for sport while yes the normal kung fu stylist is not an athlete that does'nt mean he can't punch a hole in you yo have to get close enuff to grap him and when you do make sure none of his limbs are out most importantlly his arms you don't want to lose your balls now do you but it would be diffacult but not impossible

Grappling-Insanity
06-15-2001, 06:17 AM
Kung-Fu sux nuts.....

Grappling-Insanity
06-15-2001, 06:52 AM
I was trying to be sarcastic, i.e. potraying the comman Grappling response.

Grappling-Insanity
06-15-2001, 07:39 AM
I dont think you guys have ever seen/been in a wrestling club. These guys train there a$$ off. And a double/single leg is not there only takedown as many of you seem to think... Do you think you guys could walk off a firemans carry???? or even if he just slammed with a double leg instead of trying to take you down
a-la early Carlos Newton.

Also the physical conditioning aspect here.. How much of your classes spend there time on physical conditioning.... I'll give you a quick brakedown of some wrestling classes I've witnessed (never actually wrestled). about 45 mins of crunches,pushups,hindu pushups,full situps. Then around an hour of technical drills and such. After that about 30 mins of sparring. I was then told by one of the wrestlers, my friend that they will go weight lift in a couple hours. Now tell me your average martial artist trains like this????

Double Leg
06-25-2001, 06:50 PM
I would put my money on the high school wrestler 10 out of 10 times. And for you "non" wrestlers out there that tried to say that you countered a wrestlers takedown with your own then I say bull. Whats with all the keyboard warriors here?

brassmonkey
06-27-2001, 10:57 AM
Go back to where you came from and troll on some Rickson Vs Wolverine threads.

Bad Karma
06-27-2001, 11:27 AM
As some one said earlier, wrestling is physically very demanding sport, so an average wrestler will probably have an edge on physical attributes.

They are also experts at taking people down and then gaining a dominant position, which will spell doom to pure standup fighters with no or limited grappling skills. Ability to break bones with your strikes is of no use, if you're lying on your back and eating punches.


--
BK

Nutt'nhunny
06-27-2001, 05:39 PM
My Sifu and I worked out for 5 hours strait. Doing a Tai Chi warm up and then throwing each other for the next 5 hours.

At a local wrestling camp, they go for 3 periods of 1 and 1/2 hours and get up in the morning and run.

I would love something like this for kung fu. Yesterday I did two man tan tui and other two man forms for 2 hours. It was hot and I was tired. You just can't strike for as long as you can wrestle. You can do drills, but who can spar for 5 hours everyday? Besides that, in kung fu they don't teach everything to every student. You learn throwing later on and different techniques at different depths

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Koing
07-07-2001, 03:25 AM
these topics are always hard and not that real as we always say about the *average* etc etc the arguement goes on and on....

but from my experience the average ma in my class that I do is not that fit at all. They lack all the physical attributes as they are older and haven't done as much sport and fitness orientated things after they left school. So they are obviously if theyd on't continue will flag and not get fitter but less. Also all the beer drinking and smoking won't help any of them.

I'm in the uk and so can't say much about the wrestling. But I would give a good guess that they tend to not smoke or drink very heavey as they are training a lot. Also in my class none of them do anything to help build up strength much but then they are older and have jobs so they have to do that. They probably don't have the time to spend working out etc.

But me on the other hand I'm a student. I spend 3 three times a week with a professional coach. The coach happens to be 64 and in AMAZING condition and is INSANLEE strong for his age. Hes an ex British Champion in his weight devision. This is Weight Lifting I do for fun and as a sport to compete. I would say most MA here would not do that or any gym work out etc. Also I practice a lot of sports and work out at home so that would give me an advantage.

Also with people saying that this and that to defend a take down its NO WAY THAT SIMPLE. I have been playing Rugby for 6 years now and I am very proficient and taking people down. I have been hit on the way down and kicked and kneed but the person still goes down. I would tend to agree with the people that say to defend against one is going to be hard and not easy.

The conditioning would put the other guy in favour. Also in the MA I've done (I've settled on Wing Chun done other forms but the schools in my area are not good) don't teach to defend on the ground. But I would think Judo would sooner then the other forms. But I've done some ground work and its hard to get out of the mantra or mount position. But this is when the knowledge comes to play as you know how. But also if your strong you can bridge and turn the other person out.

Me and my friend was messing about one day and I could turn him over from the mount and I could keep him in the mount position and control him. But he couldn't get out or control me. Hes done more years of traning in other forms almost a national in judo and we've done roughly the same amount of Wing Chun but I've been Weight training and Lifting for longer then him and do more physical sports so I am stronger then him. I could easily bridge out from him but he couldn't.

"Bye 4 now; not 4 ever"

baldmantiz
07-11-2001, 07:16 PM
your average martial artist also trains in ways a high school wrestler does not. the martial artist has much more at his disposal...different strikes, knowing where to strike, etc. a wrestler isn't always prepared for something like this.

To know others is to have knowledge. To know oneself is to be enlightened.

bratok304
07-11-2001, 08:57 PM
Normally, a good MA trains a lot too, persenally, i think that 1 hour or 1h30 is just not enough to train. at my school (wc school) we have about 45 mins - 1h body working (not like big gay muscular guys work out) but we does a lot of different exercices, then we do some drills, like punches, kicks, forms, etc... then we learn at our own level.... so if you think that MA are not are trainign their a$$ of, well, think again. I know not all train like we do, but there are a lot, so you don;t want to pick a fight with one that does. :) :D :D :D :D :cool:

omegapoint
07-12-2001, 01:06 AM
Wrestler's usually don't know how to throw a decent anatomically/biomechanically sound punch. Just watch the earlier UFCs and Prides and you'll see some 250 lb. muscle bound, steroided-out, pro athlete throw punches like a 7 year old. Ridiculous. At least BJJ guys like Rickson can rely on sound striking skills to help defeat an opponent. Even Coleman and Kerr just recently started sharpening their punching techs and they still look like pansies when they punch. Sorry, that's just the truth. You better be able to kick-ass if you're an Olympic caliber grappler that trains 4-8 hrs. every day. Otherwise, all you're training would be for naught!!! I've fought and seen multiple wrestlers fight in the streets and they're just like anyone else who trains for simulated combat, iffy at best.

Usually quiet confident looking people are the most dangerous, not steroid enraged beef-cattle who exhaust all their energy posturing and isht. Arrogant confidence does give them an edge in the psychological aspect of combat, but not to someone who knows himself and knows better. Diplomacy!!! :)

Grappling-Insanity
07-12-2001, 02:23 AM
If you got a muscle bound freak no top of you mashing your face into concrete and throwing punches and elbows/forearms at you.