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frosh2786
02-11-2001, 12:20 AM
i have been looking for shaolin kung-fu in the cincinnati area for some time. i have found a place in the area that teaches "shaolin-do". I saw a few pictures of them, and they seem to wear karate uniforms and have belts instead of sashes. i do not know if this means anything, but it does not appear to be traditional. any input on this would help greatly. thanks!

BeiKongHui
02-11-2001, 12:56 AM
Don't waste your time or your money.
Do a search on KFO search engine for Shaolin Do or Sin The, you'll find out all you need to know.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Wongsifu
02-13-2001, 10:32 PM
Simply put it should not be SHAOLIN DO it should be SHAOLIN DOnt

oldmonkey
02-14-2001, 06:36 PM
To frosh2786:

You will find disagreements about the various Shaolin-do schools. Here's my view:

I've studied Tae Kwon Do in the past (earned a black belt), and loved it.

Now I'm studying T'ai Chi and Shaolin kung-fu from a master who is ranked in that system, and I've been very satisfied with the training. (He's an awesome martial artist and a fine person as well.)

It's too bad I can't help you in your search in Cincinnati. Every person is different, and not all instructors may be as good as mine.

Ultimately we can only learn from our own experiences. I wish you good ones!

I suggest you visit a variety of the schools in your area and witness the classes themselves. My own eclectic approach to martial arts has been rewarding for me. Other styles whether Korean or Japanese can find Shaolin roots in their history.
Many of the foundation techniques: kicks, punches, blocks, etc. have minor variations but remain quite similar. No matter what you study, you might consider a system that reinforces your own natural strengths, body type, and personal tastes.

Good luck and happy training.

s

joedoe
02-18-2001, 02:57 AM
I have actually heard somewhere that there is a group of martial artists in Japan that have tried to keep the essence of Shaolin alive in their style. They practice some Shaolin style (I think it is Northern) but have added a Japanese flavour to it.

Dunno if these are the same people or not.

YiLiQuan1
02-22-2001, 04:22 AM
Firstly, I am NOT a Shaolin-do practioner.

Secondly, in Japan, Shorinji Kempo is a style of fighting (mostly for sport) that is alleged to be a Japanese interpretation of Shaolin boxing that managed to make its way to the Land of the Rising Sun.

Thirdly, what uniform is worn is immaterial (get the pun? Im-material? HAHAHAHA) to the "traditionalism" of the training. In my school, we have recently adopted wearing Japanese style uniforms and belts, simply because they are cheaper and more practical that the Chinese style uniforms we have worn for 20 years.

Chinese uniforms, with the exception of the shuai chiao getups offered by some supply houses, are horribly inadequate for repeated grappling training - they are too thin and not designed for that kind of abuse. The sleeves are binding and restrictive to some folks with larger builds; the frog buttons are nearly impossible to replace when they get ripped off; and sashes are notoriously difficult to keep tied during rough training.

We have always made our own sashes out of stretchy material to help keep them tied and tight, but you can't beat the utilitarian toughness and durability of a Japanese obi. A judogi was specifically designed for grappling, and once you get used to the different design and fit, they are much more comfy than the Chinese uniforms.

In short, what uniforms are worn by a group (Fu Jow Pai in New York, to my limited knowledge, has worn karate style uniforms for years, and nobody says they are wrong for it...) are not as important as what is taught by it - and in the case of Shaolin-do, its alleged 500+ forms and other improbable claims are enough to make a person look elsewhere for quality instruction.

Just my humble 2 yen...

Matt Stone

Brad
02-22-2001, 04:44 AM
Here are some videos of shaolin-do forms:
shaolin-do vids (http://www.mullins-shaolin.com/videos) This guy is supposed to be a 6th or 7th degree blackbelt.

illusionfist
02-24-2001, 10:15 PM
A question that i have is- If they are supposed to be authentic shaolin and Sin The learned everything from his master, how in the hell did pure communist forms make it into the "authentic" system?

02-27-2001, 06:35 PM
I began training at a shaolin-do school three years ago. My story.

To begin, my sifu is an amzingly talented martial artist and teacher. And his teacher, Masters David and Sharon Soard, are even better. The seminars I have attended by them, for Buddha Fist, 7 star Paying Mantis, and 2 Roads of Shaolin Double Daggers were excellent, and the level of skill demonstrated was what I would expect of a Master.
My sifu trains very traditionally, with chi kung and internal forms in the morning, iron body training ect. Watching him you have no doubt of his skill.
My problem began when I met Grandmaster The'. While amazed at his physique for his age, and the fact that, the year before, he made a statement to the fact that he was interested in learning spanish, and now arrived speaking fluent spanish to our spanish speaking students. I was a little amazed at his rambling, sometimes bizarre religious philosophies, and the fact that he talked so long the class ran over two hours longer than it should. I felt very strongly that something was not right. My subsequent meeting with him accelerated that. Comments on the web fed my doubts. A minor crisis ensued. At my brown belt test, I was about fed up. I had been practicing my full set of some 9 forms, chin na, weapons and tai chi, and Lohan Tan Tuy short forms twice a day, and sparring with a ranked kickboxer to sharpen my sparring skills for that part of the test. The day of the test ( and I understand people are nervous on ranking test days) people who perhaps studied less than I did were sticking spears into the ceiling, smacking each other with short sticks ect. Now these things happen on test days, when people suddenly realize they haven't fully prepared themselves, but they should learn thier lesson by failing the test. I was horrified when these people passed with me into Brown. It devalued all the work I had done. I felt sick.
I began studying Jeet Kun Do with an instructor with a direct lineage to Lee. The training has improved my skills incredibly, and has been an excellent complement to traditional training. But I had worked a great deal to get to Brown Belt, where you start to see more advanced forms and combat theory. So I went back.
So heres the short of it. Regardless of the Grandmasters shadiness, I have recieved an excellent elementary training in basic Kung Fu forms and theory that will help me immeasurably when I move to a larger city with a school with a more reputable lineage. I plan to study until I finish the Tiger Claw forms in the system, and then study them hard to form a basis for extended study at a school elsewhere, at a later date. With all my suspicions about The', I still respect and admire my teacher and his teachers. The's inflating his lineage and training in no way puts dishonor on his students, who have trained in good faith. So, if like me, you live in a city with no traditional school except a shaolin-Do school, it does no harm to study there, the basictraining is comparable to eclectic Kung Fu schools everywhere, and you will at least have an understanding of different Kung Fu styles and combat concepts that will help you immeasurably when you find another Kung Fu school.
With all respect to my Sifu,
Johan

Brad
02-27-2001, 10:59 PM
If the "master" in those vids is representative of high level Shaolin-Do I would say stay very far away from any Shaolin-Do school if you want to learn Kungfu. It is absolutly not kungfu that he is doing. Just a really bad imitation.

qwackdragon
03-04-2001, 05:33 AM
with only 7 yr exp with yang tai chi chuan and shaolin i would no recomend thes master for these styles. his expertiese may be in other areas. :confused:

soy
03-05-2001, 02:42 AM
man the guy in that video is worse than me..

Vankuen
03-11-2001, 08:46 AM
I have studied with a Sin the lineaged system of "kung fu", and even earned a black sash ranking within approxiately two to three months. Now keep in mind that I previously had - oh about 18 years experience in other gung fu systems and what not, so the only thing I had to learn was a different sequence of movements.

I thought that the training was very non-gung fu...it looked more like shotokan karate with a few gung fu movements thrown in. They even had japanese names for some of the drills!!! The only good thing that came out of it was that it wasnt "shaolin do" but rather a break away and thus, I had some real exposure to more actual gung fu through "seminars" by friends of the teachers, which were of real gung fu lineages such as tang lang and Pow chuan.

I have left them since then (even though that was the only "gung fu" in the area) and begun to simply study the gung fu systems that I already knew, but had not mastered. I figured that training in pre-learned things even though my original sifus werent around was better than learning crap that would end up hurting me in the long run with sifus that werent as good as me.

And that is being humble about it. One of the most important things in learning gung fu is respect for the master and faith in the system, without those two things, you will not progress to your desired levels.

Train hard and always question the "unquestionable"

Vankuen
03-11-2001, 08:58 AM
those videos were embarrassing to think that he was a "kung fu brother"

Fu-Pow
03-15-2001, 07:59 AM
Hi ya!!!!

Falcor
03-15-2001, 08:17 AM
You know, if you do see earnest practitioners of a cr@ppy art (good people, but they're just doing cr@ppy stuff), how do you...enlighten them that what they are doing is, well - BAD - without insuling them? They, being good people, are of the opinoin that it is the artist and not the art (and I can't fault them for that attitude), and that everyone does what they like and suits them each follows his own path. Fine, but then again, some things are so blatantly wrong! Dilemma...

...don't think you are, know you are...

illusionfist
03-15-2001, 10:56 AM
I have been faced with this dilemma myself and it was really hard to make the decision i did. I opted not to tell the people what they were practicing was straight up fake. I took a lot of factors into account, the major one was that most of the students were what i would call a "Rec Martial Artist", someone who is not in it for the long haul and they are just kind of dabbling. Later on it all worked out cuz i saw many of them outside of their training atmosphere and every single one of them told me that they had a suspicion, so they left.

I was really torn by the whole thing in the beginning, but it all worked out in the end. If i were presented with the problem again, i would have to look at all the factors before i made my decision. I think that certain situations would necessitate an immediate answer. It is good that most of the people left that one school, because the teacher is now teaching Falun Gong material. I think that in some instances people need to learn on their own. Its part of the path.

Peace :D

Waidan
03-15-2001, 06:33 PM
You don't necessarily need to tell them "your kung fu is very not good." With many people, this will invoke a defensive response, and end any constructive conversation on the subject (of course this isn't true of everyone, I'm generalizing).

Maybe a better approach is to offer to box with them a bit (in a friendly manner obviously). Once they realize they're being uprooted and handled like a chew-toy, they'll probably draw their own conclusion regarding the authenticity of their training.

As a classmate would often say, "It's easier to show then tell."

Falcor
03-15-2001, 09:45 PM
You're right of course, I wouldn't just go up to them and say "your kung fu no good! Let me show you the power of real Chinese pugilism." And most are what I would call dabblers as well, and hopefully when they get exposed to some real stuff they'll wake up and smell the fishes. But this is what happened once; I was at a tournament, and met this really nice, very cool guy. He's wearing the white gi and is a brown belt in Shaolin-Doh. But he's a swell fellow, he even lends his opponents some of his own extra sparring gear when they fall short. Anyway, I see him on the floor and he moves well, and he performs admirably, but WHAT he does is just...cr@ap. Of course I didn't say anything - just offered my good luck and complimented him on a good effort. But inside I wanted to scream "dude, that is not shaolin kung fu, that ain't kung fu!!!" Makes me think of something my teacher told me once: good kung fu done well speaks well of the teacher and the student. Good kung fu done badly speaks ill of both student and teacher. Now, bad kung fu done badly is...well, you get the picture. But bad kung fu done well speaks well of the student but ill of the teacher.

...don't think you are, know you are...

Waidan
03-15-2001, 11:26 PM
Yeah, I get what you're saying. That is pretty tough. I think in a tournament situation, I'd be very hesitant to say anything too (don't want to take the guy out of his game, or ruin his enjoyment). However, I think in a more relaxed setting I'd try to extend some help.

JJMantis
03-16-2001, 04:18 AM
The last issue on KFQ, with Master Chan on the front, in the article about Shaolin-Do. If you didn't, listen to this. The Shaolin-Do people take a big trip to China to visit the long lost southern shaolin temple. They get there and of course, find wushu. duh! It's almost not worth saying. But they go on to say that since the shaolin wushu of China doesn't look like their style, that is the reason why the Chinese wushu is incorrect. Because we all must agree that shaolin-do is pure and unadultered. Amazing. Why don't they compare themselves to the multitudes of Shaolin outside of China? Lineages from the many authentic masters who fled from the cultural revolution?

Radhnoti
03-26-2001, 06:04 PM
This is my first post. I've REALLY enjoyed reading the posts in this forum. Very informative. When I signed up for the forum I was a bit surprised that one of the rules was to not put down any other styles though...especially considering some of the comments in this specific thread. Let me say upfront that I've been studying Shaolin-Do for just the past 6 months...having said this, I feel I can provide a different perspective than what's been offered so far.
First, the Japanese "cover" of the style. My understanding is that our style's second Grandmaster (Ie Chang Ming) was forced to flee into Indonesia during the fall of the Manchu dynasty. Indonesians (at that time...maybe even now, not sure) hated the Chinese and everything Chinese, but not Japan. Grandmaster Ie went "underground" so to speak and adopted the outside appearance of a Japanese style without changing the content of the system. Karate gis were worn, a karate belt ranking system was implemented and the "do" was added to the system name. Upon Shaolin-Do reaching the U.S. some thought was given to switching to kung fu style uniforms, but Grandmaster Sin The' decided to keep the gi as a nod to the history of our style. (I'm sure that the practicality of the gi was also a factor.)
JJMantis mentioned that in the KFQ article the Shaolin-Do students weren't very happy with the Wu Shu forms they see the current Shaolin temple inhabitants perform. The artice goes on to state that two "elderly gentlemen" stand up and perform routines that the visitors are familiar with, and are given a standing ovation.
My understanding is that Shaolin-Do is taught in such a way as to be progressively more difficult. The lower belt ranks have a specific curriculum for advancement and Grandmaster Sin's book states that, "Below brown belt, it is assumed that the student is studying for the purpose of learning some self defense only. At brown belt, it is now assumed that the student is serious about the style as an art form." From first brown you start to get choices about the forms you study for advancement. Most of the black belts I've met seem to have a "specialty" they seem to focus upon. My teacher has learned six of the tiger forms, his teacher seems to be focused upon Tai Chi forms that are mandatory for advancing beyond first black. I hope that johan moves into the realm of brown belt and finds that the "less serious" and unprepared students fall by the wayside as he is shown more and more that piques his interest.
Finally, concerning Grandmaster Sin The', I've been witness to some of his behavior that I found odd. But, I've been operating under the assumption that since he comes from a different culture, religion and base language than me it's probably simply a communication problem. I know that he smiles a lot, and upon passing my two year old son he stopped to lean down and pat his head and say "hi". I've never heard HIM talk about the things he can do, it's always one of his higher ranking black belts. He's been there for all my belt tests so far (how many Grandmasters with as many schools to oversee as Grandmaster Sin could say the same?) and made a point to talk with the students, even asking us if we wanted to go to eat with him at a local restaurant. In short, he seems to be a great person. A friend of mine went to Grandmaster Sin's tournament in Lexington and had the fortune to see the Grandmaster spar. This is a man almost in his sixties, but his movements were supposed to be really impressive. One fellow that tried to sweep his legs was shocked as Grandmaster Sin jumped over his head. Snapping out 3 kicks while jumping through the air, seeming to "glide" forward, sending Master Leonard sailing through the air almost as soon as contact was made. :)
Wish I'd seen it.
I hope I've given some of you a glimpse into the martial art I've been fortunate enough to begin studying. And thanks for plowing through this whole post. :D

-Radhnoti

JJMantis
03-27-2001, 02:23 AM
I will admit I haven't met or seen shaolin-do personally, is there any input from others that have met, trained, or touched hands with them? I just read all I could on the net, and independantly (before coming to this board) have seemed to come to the same conclusion as the others here. One thing they definitly have is a lot of material. IMHO too much material. But if can do 100 forms correct and well, then you must be good, right? That being said, let's get to that history.

Karate uniforms to hide behind during exile - I can believe that. Although most kung fu people I've seen don't wear "uniforms" when training anyway, we tend to wear shoes with black pants and a t-shirt. But why continue to say "katas" with an art that uses the word "shaolin"? Also the words "bo" and "numchaku" (that's how they spelled it) are Japanese. A practicioner of Chinese kung fu would say "stick/cudgelstaff" or "rice flails". Sorry I don't know the Chinese equivalents.

http://www.shaolin-do.com/masters/index.shtml

Su Kong Tai Djin was supposed to be a hermit who just had to stay in hiding in the wilderness. Why, then, did he get a professional photo taken wearing a suit?

The picture of Ie Chang Ming I saw on another site. It is a painting, and its in color. It appears to have been grey scaled to make it appear like an old photo.

Inquisitor
03-27-2001, 03:47 AM
I will say the following for the benefit of those who would spend years of fruitless hard work, dedication, and training learning this so-called style.
Shaolin-Do is a style that is clouded with "legendary" history and unsubstantiated myth. None, other than "Grandmaster" Sin The have ever heard of (let alone met) Ie Chan Ming or Su Kong Tai Djin. All of the forms taught in the system of Shaolin-Do are forms that can be found in books, videos, and other forms of media. Sin The claims that Shaolin-Do is simply the sum of Shaolin Temple kungfu knowledge. However, within his so-called style he teaches non-Shaolin forms and styles, the most prominent of which are Tai Chi Chuan and those styles descended from Wudang (which was Taoist, not Buddhist). And, for the record, the Tai Chi forms taught in Shaolin-Do are not actual, legitimate forms of the family styles. They are the, for lack of a better word, *******ized forms created by the National Sport Association of the Communist Chinese government. The traditional family Tai Chi styles of Wu, Yang, Chen, etc. do not teach the new "wushu" forms as part of their curriculum. Also, Shaolin-Do practitioners are notorious for their inability to see the differences between the way in which traditional stylists perform their forms, and the way in which they perform them. A true master of kungfu is like a great painter. He may not know of all the other painters or their paintings, but if he comes across the work of another great painter, he will recognize it for what it is, great art. If this is true (and trust me when I say that it is), then why is it that those in the legitimate, traditional kungfu community see Shaolin-Do and then say to themselves "This is kungfu? No, it can't be kungfu. It must be Karate or Tae Kwon Do... ."
"Grandmaster" Sin The's prowess in kungfu is also unsubstantiated and has yet to be seen by an unbiased, impartial observer. All instances of his "great skill" that I have heard and seen have all been hearsay; "Well, I wasn't there but my master was there and he told me that it was great!" or "The older students told me that once they saw him and that he was spectacular!" None can vouch for Sin The's actual skill and knowledge, and none can say that his lineage is real or legitimate. Even if for some reason he could not substantiate his lineage, if he had learned "real" kungfu, it would be evident either through his obvious skill or the skill of his better students (which it, sadly, is not).

There is more that could be said, but I'll leave it at this. If you are a practitioner of Shaolin-Do, or are considering learning the so-called "style," do not waste your time. Find a legitimate style and a legitimate master under which to learn. You will be wasting your hard-earned money and will be dedicating your life to something that is fake and will be of no real benefit to yourself.

joedoe
03-27-2001, 03:54 AM
I have never trained or seen Shaolin-Do before either. All I can say is that if you enjoy it and it is working for you, then stick with it. Having seen the clips, I'd have to say that it doesn't look like my cup of tea.

And I'd have to say that the Japanese influence seems to extend further than just the uniforms :).

Guns don't kill people, I kill people

Abstract
03-27-2001, 07:42 PM
yo no dis to anyone who practices Shaolin-Do, but after watching those vids, it looks like USSD SYNDROME :rolleyes: to me. I've legit kung fu practiced & seen some serious nonsense, & that was borderline in my eyes...To be honest, what I saw at USSD looked EXACTLY like what I was watching on those clips, that, coupled w/all the Japanese 'Kata this' & pinion that, I had to take my leave...if it works for u, then that's cool....just my 2 cents... ;)

brassmonkey
03-28-2001, 07:31 AM
To be fair I've seen Tai Chi Chuan done equally as bad(well almost) from legitimate lineages.

Oldguy
03-30-2001, 08:24 PM
Hey you guys-
We are all consumers. We chose to stay with our respective teachers/schools because what we were being taught made sense, hopefully. Kungfu comes in a myriad of shapes and sizes, just like its practitioners. Certain styles work better for certain people.
Now this Shaolin-do may very well have roots deep in China. Why should we dispute a claim which we would be hard pressed to prove one way or the other, just because it looks different?
If we disagree with the way a technique is performed, we should be able to explain why. That way we train eyes and mind and allow a good person to save face. If you are friends with someone who does something "strange", take him to task and ask why he does something one way and not another. He might know something you don't. There was an old German, maybe Swiss mystic, Bernhard von Clairvox(sp) who said "Lerne alles, und du wirst spaeter sehen, dass nichts ueberfluessing ist". tr. Learn everything and later you will see that nothing is superfluous.
This makes sense to me. Take care

Royal Dragon
03-30-2001, 11:32 PM
Hello,
I have been perusing this post, and I am wondering if there is a Shaolin do school here in Chicago or not. I've never heard of one here, but I would like to check it out and see for myself what all the hub'bub is.

To be honest with everyone, I am a survivor of Chung Moo, so I am extreamly skeptical of anyone that claims mastery of large amounts of knowledge. The Master I am now under, Got his masters degree in the internal division of our system. although he "knows" the external division, He does not and never did claim to have mastered it. When I discuss the external aspectes of my style with him he often reminds me of his lack of mastery in that division and the fact that his specialty is the internal. This is one of the reasons why I trust him. I really could care less if he knew the whole system to the point of mastery . In fact, the fact that he doesn't, and whole heartedly admits it generates a lot of trust in me. It has allowed me to make contacts with others that DO specialize in the area's he is lacking guilt free. I know, that if I want to master the external division, he can give me the "template" to do so, but It will be up to me to do it through blood, sweat and tears.

Now, this brings me to this, I don't see how Sin The' can possibly be teaching an effective system with so much to teach. Our system, when including ALL the styles that make it up, AND the addition of styles that our 10th century founder learned prior to developing it, TOPS, AT BEST, INCLUDING VARIATIONs OF THE SAME FORMS!! has (And I am REALLY stretching it here) 100 forms. Our Tai Chi has 7 Forms (if you count the little 8 postures form and it's 4 and 8 gate varietys of practing it as 3 seperate forms), our Southern division has 6!, and our Six Step Monkey boxing has only 8 that I've heard of (do the math, you get the idea).

Now, I could, if i wanted too, memorize all those patterns in maybe a year or two (including all the stuff I'd have to make up out of thin air just to have 100 forms), But if My Master, after 30 + years has only mastered the Tai Chi himself, How on earth could I master 100 of them? Let alone 900 as claimed by this Sin The' charcter? HEll, how does he remember them all? How does he keep them pure? I Mean, when you specialize in one aspect of the system, you tend to do all the other stuff with that same flair, right?

Now, that being said, how did Sin The' do it?

I'm sure he can jump and stuff, (so can I) but does that make him special? Does patting a kids head make him a master?

I don't know guys, I'm sure he's not the Cult master my former school followed, But it sure sounds like 8 martial arts taught as one to me.

Kymus
04-01-2001, 06:16 PM
This guy is a fake and a try hard. Looking at the forms, you can easily tell this. I know nothing about the forms done in the videos or if they're "done properly". I have 12 years experience in martial arts. Just by watching someone perform a form, you can tell alot about them and the system. The forms shown used alot of wide open circular repetitive movements. You see this alot in KF movies to make things seem more exaderated. Another thing is that the practitioner performs them very slopily, without much controll. Also, this thing with 900 different forms, gimmie a break, that is BS. No one has ever seen the man perform. That is a little queer. Now, some may say that he has nothing to prove to anyone. I can understand that, but, if he was smart he would do some tornaments or seminars or something to show how good he is so that he will get better recognised and gain a higher student body. The only thing I can recomend for a student of this school is to take a look at some other KF schools and see how things are really done, then look at the Shaolin Do school and ask yourself, which one seems more for real? Sin The' is nothing but a con artist, not martial about him.

-Kymus

~Crosstraining is the key~
-Sifu Rick Tucci
www.pamausa.com (http://www.pamausa.com)

fungku
04-02-2001, 08:21 PM
I am sorry, but the man in those clips has VERY LITTLE skill at all, he is sloppy, not controlled, ... just plain awful?
This is not 'Shaolin' AT ALL.

OK, THE RULE ON NOT PUTTING DOWN ANOTHER STYLE.
I am not insulting this STYLE OF KUNG FU, I am SAYING THIS IS NOT KUNG FU. It may be a martial art, but it is NOT shaolin kung fu, nor does it look related to shaolin kung fu. It looks like a japanese martial art, with Chinese weapons, or 'imitated' Chinese movements.

I have studied Hung Gar kung fu for many years, and have started studyin Wing Chun kung fu. I have also two really close friends who both came from China (exchange students), and we practiced kung fu together, I have learned 2 northern shaolin forms from them. They seem authentic, though there is no way to be sure, but the exchange of kung fu was fun.

Anyway, like I was saying the whole SHaolin-Do thing...

It is NOT and I will repeat NOT kung fu.
(and if the guy in the clip is a seniour student of this Sin The guy, then it does not say a lot about Sin The)

BeiKongHui
04-03-2001, 02:47 PM
Don't make him beat you with his chest muscles!
He is the worlds most dangerous man anyway.

Dangerous Man (http://www.kentuckyconnect.com/heraldleader/news/032301/weekenderdocs/sin_the23.htm) :D

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

SanHeChuan
04-10-2001, 01:03 AM
you guys couldn't agree on the color of sh!t ;)

some of you say it's kung fu form videos
some of you say it's modern communist wushu
some of you say it's not even kung fu at all
some of you say it looks like karate (where you get that i don't know)
some of are just plain ignorante
some of the people who have been in shaolin-do seem to have been impressed with the martial side.

(there have been other shaolin-do posts by the way
)
so what the fuc!

With so many conflicting opinions i say screw them all and find out for youself, mabe it's not kung fu but that doesn't mean it cant be a good martial art. Mabe it is kung fu and these fuc sticks dont know what there talking about.
looking into the shaolin-do school if you like it best go there and if a more reputable kung fu school becomes avalible to you then try it out too and then after you have gained upper rank in both you can tell us what YOU think.
but tell us about the techniques and skills not about the kinda uniforms they where or wheather they say kata or form because that sh!t dont mean Sh!t

but you will only get out of your training what you put into it :eek:

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

BeiKongHui
04-10-2001, 01:59 AM
uhhhhhhm, the main problem I see is that I've met people who've been black belts (or sashes whatever it is this week)for 10-15 years and couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag. I've also been told by people that trained at the main headquarters that the GM sells belts to those who can't actually pass their tests.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti
04-10-2001, 06:41 AM
Well, I can discount the "selling belts" idea, I know a guy that failed at LEAST one attempt to pass into brown from my hometown and have heard of several others from other schools.
And as for not being able to fight...well, maybe you're just SO unstoppable that anyone ELSE put next to you looks pathetic? ;)

-Radhnoti

Inquisitor
04-10-2001, 07:46 AM
You say that: "some of you say it's kung fu form videos some of you say it's modern communist wushu some of you say it's not even kung fu at all some of you say it looks like karate (where you get that i don't know)"


Could it not be *all of them*? I don't see why the fact that he teaches "modern communist wushu" somehow excludes him from also teaching "kung fu form [sic] videos." They aren't mutually exclusive. The problem isn't that what he teaches is not combat effective (although I believe so), the problem is that he claims to teach "Shaolin kungfu" when in fact he doesn't. Half of what he teaches is not from Shaolin, and none of it looks *real*. Why is it that even though a Choy Li Fut master and a Northern Shaolin master learn completely different styles, they can look at each other and say "He knows good kungfu" ? Because they both still do *kungfu* which, even across styles, shares several very basic similarities in both combat principle and technique (yes, that was an oversimplification). They may do things differently and study in a different manner, but they recognize martial mastery when they see it.

And then you have to gall to say "go do both and *then* compare." Well, I hate to break it to you, but time and money are limited resources. I am not about to waste my time or my heard-earned money (*gasp* money from a JOB *gasp*) learning some bull**** martial art from a bull**** "grandmaster" who, as far I know, couldn't punch if his life depended on it. I would not want others to do the same. This is the martial arts. I have seen, in person, and sparred with, several high-ranking Shaolin-Do students, including a "1st Dan" Blackbelt (I met them through a mutual friend). From my own *personal* experience, I can say that the Shaolin-Do that I have seen isn't kungfu. The "1st Dan" couldn't even tell me what a basic concept such as fa jing was. It was one of the *lower ranking* students who had "heard of it," and even then he couldn't explain to me what it was. Keep in mind that it is supposed to take "several years" for someone to reach the rank of "1st Dan," which in the system of Shaolin-Do is supposed to denote some form of mastery of at least the basics, if not the "advanced" knowledge. In fact, from what I have seen, Shaolin-Do doesn't even qualify as a martial art. Go watch a class. See how the instructor or a high-ranked student does the forms. For anyone that has had several years of study in the traditional Chinese Martial Arts, what they see is complete and utter bull****. The Seven Star Praying Mantis and Eight Step Praying Mantis branches both do the same basic forms, but do them differently. Do they say "oh, that branch doesn't know *real* Praying Mantis"? No. They say "oh, they do them *differently*, but it's still the same thing." When they see a Shaolin-Do master doing a Praying Mantis form, they cringe. Why is that?
Unfortunately, we live in a different time. In the past, one could have simply walked up to the nearest Shaolin-Do "dojo" and challenged the instructor/master of the school. Now, such a thing would be pretty much impossible (you think any Shaolin-Do "master" would agree to such a fight in the first place? Good luck, heh).

Look, I realize that you weren't really picking sides, so I apologize for reaming you. It just really, really gets to me when I hear about crap like this. You make statements like "find out for yourself" when the proof is lying there, right in front of you. Why ask someone to waste their time and money doing something that is fake just so they can learn that IT IS FAKE? It gives the real martial arts (not just the Chinese Martial Arts, but all of them) a bad name. And, for the record, I believe that in this thread Vankuen professed to learning Shaolin-Do before, as did several others in previous "Shaolin-Do" threads.
Anyway, that is my angry little spiel on the subject of Shaolin-Do. =P

Brad
04-10-2001, 04:31 PM
I have a feeling Shaolin-Do has stolen forms from a lot of different styles including standardized wushu. 24 Taiji?! Defenitely not Shaolin in any way. It was created in the 50's! A lot of us say it looks karate(if it does, it's the most god awful karate I've ever seen) because we probably don't know a whole lot about karate. We're kunfu guys.

Abstract
04-10-2001, 05:37 PM
if you're gonna call people "ignorant" then spell it without the 'e'... ;) ;)

Radhnoti
04-10-2001, 06:14 PM
First I studied aikido. I couldn't mesh with the totally nonaggressive philosophy, and HATED standing with my arms to my side inviting attack. I left. Next I studied with a guy teaching multiple japanese arts, one of which he was recognized as a Shihan (sp?) by a nationwide organization. He taught small-circle jujitsu, judo (not his strong suit), and shorin ryu karate. He had plans to integrate them into his own "eclectic" martial art. I stayed there for a year or more before figuring out it really wasn't for me. He felt there was no need to observe too many of the "useless traditions" his sensei had forced upon him. He still taught kata, but he felt sparring and tournament competition was more important.
Now, I'm in Shaolin-Do. I'm working harder than I had to in any martial art I ever studied before (there are some more that I studied back in college, but I'll skip the boring story about each of them). We're taught conditioning techniques. (Ever do push-ups on your wrists? Forearm toughening drills? Finger tip pushups? We do.) We study kata and our teacher goes into great detail about the possible applications of each movement within the kata, stressing that techniques can and must be modified slightly in real life situations. We observe all courtesies, extending them even to visitors from other styles. Now, onto (I believe, but forgive me if I misrepresent you) Inquisitor's primary problems with Shaolin-Do. Grandmaster Sin claims to be the sole and direct inheritor of grandmaster status from the Shaolin temple. I have no way to verify OR deny this, neither does anyone else. His supporters would say, "Look at all he knows and teaches! Anyone who says he isn't is just jealous." His detractors would say, "Isn't it convenient that nothing and no one exists to dispute or prove your claim." This seems to me to be a pointless arguement for BOTH sides. Personally, I could care less whether his system is the "pure" one handed down from "The Temple". It has within it all the elements that I require. I DO believe him, but it's based solely upon my interactions with him and some of his higher ranked students, no hard facts. The other problem folks seem to have regarding Shaolin-Do runs along the lines of, "That ain't Kung-Fu man!" I would, respectfully, point out that kung-fu is different things to different folks. It's ridiculous for someone from a specific style to say, "That style is wrong, because it's not like mine." In addition, Grandmaster Sin's book goes into great detail about why Shaolin-Do isn't kung-fu... A Cantonese term which refers to the effort a person makes when he devotes himself to some task. They seem to prefer the Mandarin phrases Shaolin Ch'uan-fa (Ch'uan-fa meaning, "the way of the fist") or Shaolin Wu kung (wu kung being an expression that denotes any and all types of martial endeavor performed in a skillful and dedicated manner). But, instead of fretting about what category Shaolin-Do is placed within, it was decided that "generic" terms were unimportant. Shaolin-Do has since been referred to as both Kung-Fu and even karate with no protestation from any of the high ranking students or Grandmaster. So, maybe that'll make you feel better...you're right, it ain't kung-fu! ;)
In closing, (finally, eh? :rolleyes: ) I'd like to apologize for having to be the one to present the "other side" of this argument. I'm sure that someone with more experience in the system would do a better job...maybe they're just tired of this circular argument and have let it go. Or maybe they're practicing their forms the way we all should be. heh

-Radhnoti

SanHeChuan
04-10-2001, 07:56 PM
ok, but if they got it from videos wouldn't you still be able to reconize the forms as at least bad kung-fu.

so i was saying that people saying that it isn't even kung-fu, and people that are saying thats it's video kungfu are contradicting each other.

i don't think that he should wast his time with crap either but i believe in using personal experiance rather than what some internet jocky says to form your own opions :D

whether fooled or not alot of people seem to like shaolin-do and some of them come from other martial arts including kung-fu styles,so maybe doing "internet research" isn't going to give you the real story.

i'm not trying to defend shaolin-do, i'm just saying personal experience is best, or something.
i think i've confused myself :D j/k

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

BeiKongHui
04-10-2001, 08:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Well, I can discount the "selling belts" idea, I know a guy that failed at LEAST one attempt to pass into brown from my hometown and have heard of several others from other schools.
And as for not being able to fight...well, maybe you're just SO unstoppable that anyone ELSE put next to you looks pathetic? [/quote]

Yeah, everyone who "studies" shaolin-No's teacher is "different". No, I'm no tougher than anyone else I just study legitimate martial arts-Wing Chun & BJJ-in which actual fighting basics are taught as opposed to getting a belt for memorizing a "kata". Sorry, buddy, I've seen Sin The' & the boys here at the Sin The' gym (this is where this travesty all got started)I wasn't impressed nor where any of my Sihings who pounded many SD people into the ground back in the 70's & 80's when The' tried (unsuccessfully) to send his black belts around to other schools to start fights.
I'm no Kung Fu expert but I & most everyone else here know more than you...save you time & money and move on to a legit art.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

BeiKongHui
04-10-2001, 08:27 PM
Just for your piece of mind I have seen it all first hand not through the internet. If I wanted to subject myself to it again I could walk out my door and walk about 1/8th of a mile to the nearest Shaolin-Do McDojo.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti
04-11-2001, 12:14 AM
BeiKongHui, thanks for your "expert" opinion. I, too, live in KY and I agree to disagree with you. And just so no one thinks my comment that you quoted was rude, I'll point out that the "you're so awesome" comment WAS followed by a smiley face...in this case I meant it as humor, not mockery.

-Radhnoti

ope
04-11-2001, 03:21 AM
Push ups on your fingers we do this as well push ups on your wrist (crane push ups) all these things should be basic training i would hope most schools train using these methods..

BeiKongHui
04-11-2001, 02:50 PM
Where are you in Kentucky? There are plenty of more legitimate Kung Fu schools in this state. If your going to invest the blood, tears & $$$ into training you should seek out a style worthy of your dedication. At the very least I would urge you to do some heave research into the "katas" you are being taught and seek out the advice of more experienced non shaolin-no martial artists who will tell you how it is. Sorry, man I just see too many people who've been through the Shaolin-No system & come out totally disillusioned with the entire world of martial arts because they saw the truth too late.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti
04-13-2001, 05:57 AM
Ope, I hope that most traditional schools do as well...my point was that we are training hard, and that's what it's all about, no?
BeiKongHui, I'll take your advice on comparing the forms I learn to those similar but taught in other styles. My teacher encourages us to learn whatever we can, where ever we can so I see no conflict of interest there. Right now, I'm reading the book Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming co-authored about Hsing Yi Chuan as a sort of warm-up for what I'm supposed to learn later.

-Radhnoti

Inquisitor
04-14-2001, 08:47 AM
Radhnoti:

One of the basic points of my argument against Sin The was that his lineage *couldn't* be substantiated. It is common knowledge that in kungfu, masters travel in circles. Why cannot even *one* other sifu say "Yes, I know Sin The, and I know or knew of his sifu. He is legitimate."? I then followed this argument up with the next one: Even were his lineage to be unsubstantiated, *the skill would speak for itself*. From what I and others have seen, along with what is easily accessible on the Internet ("masters" doing forms, two man drills, etc.), that is clearly *not the case*.
Also, the basis of my argument for his "vast knowledge" was that all of his knowledge is FAKE. The fact that he claims to have all this knowledge and the FACT that it can be proven that this knowledge is either a) gotten from other materials, b) inconsistent with traditional Shaolin kungfu (and yes, this is a valid argument, as even with the dozens of "Shaolin" styles, they all share inherent characteristics that are not found in Shaolin-Do) or, c) *NOT EVEN FROM HIS CLAIMED LINEAGE*. He claims to know the sum all knowledge of Shaolin Temple kungfu. He has had no other sifu other than Ie Chang Ming. Well, if that is the case, and his lineage is to be believed, why the hell does he teach *NON-SHAOLIN* kungfu? He teaches Tai Chi Chuan, which is TAOIST. Not only that, but the Tai Chi Chuan he teaches is not even consistent with the traditional styles! He teaches the widely known "conglomerated" forms created by the Communist Chinese government! If anything, that should say something about his other knowledge that is supposedly descended from the Shaolin Temple, and whether or not that information is actually legitimate. Strangely enough, according to you, one must have "advanced training" in Tai Chi Chuan before one can go into the higher ranks... Am I the only one that sees something wrong with that?
As for the argument that "we don't call it kungfu, so it isn't kungfu, so there!"; well, I have to tell you something that you might not like: IT IS SUPPOSED TO BE KUNGFU. The term kungfu has changed over time to mean the Chinese Martial Arts. As the Shaolin Temple was located in China, the martial arts that was taught/developed/systematized/etc. there was Chinese in origin. The simple fact of the matter is that what Sin The claims to teach is KUNGFU. It is supposed to be Chinese Martial Arts from China. I don't care if it lasted two generations outside of China, it is still Chinese in origin and, in fact, he claims that it is still Chinese in substance as well. Supposedly, there have been no changes to the martial information from when Su Kong Tai Djin was "abbot of Shaolin Temple" down to Sin The. If we are to take his claims seriously, then yes, what he knows is in fact kungfu. Karate, on the other hand, is a specific style that has its origins on the island of Okinawa (although there are substyles of Karate-do that "started" on the main island of Nippon). Obviously, kungfu from the Shaolin Temple is not a part of Karate (although Karate has some roots from certain styles of kungfu). Your "superiors" may not protest that Shaolin-Do is called karate, but that is not the point. What is being debated is whether or not Shaolin-Do is kungfu, or even has its roots in kungfu. And, for the record, I know of many, many kungfu practitioners who would take offense if their chosen martial art were to be referred to as "karate."
Your other argument was that "Hey, we work hard and we try, and that is all that really matters anyway, right?" is ludicrous. Just because you work hard at it doesn't mean it actually works, that it is legitimate, or that it "makes everything okay." Take a good long look at Chung Moo Doe. Are you going to tell me that the people who practiced it didn't work hard or didn't do lots of pushups/situps/etc.? The fact that they put a lot of effort into Chung Moo Doe did not change the fact that it is fake, not useful, inapplicable, and does not qualify as a martial art. That also brings me to another point: the whole idea of "bashing" Shaolin-Do is to prevent other people from starting or continuing their "education" in it. I know for a fact that Shaolin-Do is complete and utter bull****, is not what it claims to be, does not teach actual martial arts, and is cheating a lot of people out of their hard earned money. If you wish to continue learning Shaolin-Do, then you should at least know that much. LoL it isn't like what I am saying will get through to most of you anyway. There are proven psychological processes that will either ignore or discredit the FACT that Shaolin-Do is fake, just because *you don't want to be wrong*.


SanHeChuan:

For starters, you need to refer back to my original reply to your post about how we are all supposedly "contradicting" each other. Secondly, kungfu learned from videos *does not qualify as actualy kungfu*. Also, certain things cannot and should not rely solely on personal experience. Yes, personal experience can be a good teacher (although most of the time it isn't anyway). However, do you want to personally find out about how people can scam you for your entire life's savings? Or, better yet, do you want to learn personally about how jumping out of a plane two miles aboveground will kill you? Hey, why don't you go personally learn how shooting someone is a bad thing? Give me a break. Yes, there are a lot of ignorant statements and BS made on the internet; that does not exclude the possibility that there are those of us who do know what we are talking about.

UberShaman
04-14-2001, 05:00 PM
What gets me is this guy Sin The used to teach Karate . He must be the best martial artist in the world The sole inheritor of the shaolin system over 900 forms, 33 flavors of ice cream and he he still had time to learn Karate!! I wonder why he doesnt mention this in his book?
"would you like fries with that black belt sir?"

Brad
04-14-2001, 10:45 PM
Radhnoti,

Please don't take everything we say as personal attacks or hatered towards yourself. We don't doubt that you put a lot of effort into what you do. But if you were to put as much effort into a legitimate style with a good teacher you would probably be surprised by how much better you become. The sooner you leave Shaolin Do the better off you'll be.

Radhnoti
04-16-2001, 05:40 PM
First off, Inquisitor let me compliment you upon an extremely appropriate name. :)

" LoL it isn't like what I am saying will get through to most of you anyway. There are proven psychological processes that will either ignore or discredit the FACT that Shaolin-Do is fake, just because *you don't want to be wrong*."
Neat bit of wordplay there. So, it's impossible that anyone would defend Shaolin-Do without a "psychological process" coming into play? Tell you what, you assume that I'm coming into this with an open mind and I'll assume that you're listening to what I have to say. We may both be fooling ourselves, but the alternative is that this is just an online diary in which we are only writing for ourselves. Right?

"Why cannot even *one* other sifu say "Yes, I know Sin The, and I know or knew of his sifu. He is legitimate."?"
It seems to me that this would be quite insulting to Grandmaster Sin and quite presumptive of anyone else. I've read other articles on these boards with members saying that Grandmaster Sin's brother is "the real deal"...and they both learned from Grandmaster Ie.

"It is common knowledge that in kungfu, masters travel in circles. " The last issue of Kungfu Qigong mentions that Grandmaster Sin was welcomed by Eagle Claw Master Li li Hong, stating that he has been "a friend...for many years".
I'm fairly new to CMA, so, I can't speak knowledgably about the skill of my instructors vs. the skill of other masters. I CAN speak of the poor quality of video viewed over the internet. And I CAN state that watching my teacher perform the higher level tiger forms is awe inspiring for me. You can feel the intensity he radiates.

As for the "yeah, but does it work?" argument. I have met an instructor in a nearby city who works as "security" at a local bar. The bar was KNOWN for the fights that erupted regularly. A rough place. He has since greatly improved the bar's reputation for safety. Yes, he did have to fight. And, yes, it did work. He's about 5'10'' and weighs about 165 lbs. and subdued players for the college football team weighing 300+. You can say, "maybe he got lucky" or "yeah, but maybe none of them could fight" or "imagine what he could have done with a REAL art!" if you want, but it sounds like sour grapes to me.

"I know for a fact that Shaolin-Do is complete and utter bull****, is not what it claims to be, does not teach actual martial arts, and is cheating a lot of people out of their hard earned money." What I know for "a fact" is that I'm improving myself and I see my fellow students doing the same. Shaolin-Do has been all it claimed to be for me. I am learning an "actual" martial art. And I don't feel cheated at all.

UberShaman, I believe that Grandmaster Sin teaching "karate" goes back to the fact that he doesn't really care how his system is classified.

Brad, thanks for the good word. None of you know ME and I don't claim to know any of you. So, really there's no way for me to take anything said personally. I HAVE begun to see why senior Shaolin-Do students don't bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists though. It would have been much easier for me (still would be, in fact) to just ignore this thread. Maybe I'll know better next time. :D

-Radhnoti

BeiKongHui
04-16-2001, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I HAVE begun to see why senior Shaolin-Do students don't bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists though. [/quote]

That would be because they can't contradict the statements made here and it's much easier to ignore the truth for some people.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

dragon797
04-17-2001, 12:40 AM
To correct a comment about Sin The's brother, Hiang The.

Hiang The learned material not only from his grandfather, Ie Chang Ming (who Sin still strangely does not acknowledge as his grandfather) but from three other of Ie's peers, one of whom taught Hiang his complete Tai Peng (Bird) system. Ie's specialty was the internal.

To BeiKongHui:
I am sure you have met or had bad experiences with some Shaolin-Do people over the years, especially if you were involved with John Ng, John Drefrense, and Mark Burgher. Many of them can be extremely arrogant. But don't lump everyone into his group or dismiss the skills of others who have studied the material from Ie and his contemporaries. Sin The is not the only source, just the main problem.
n

BeiKongHui
04-17-2001, 04:55 AM
I've only seen Hiang in action on old video tapes and he was ok. The 2 people I know that trained under him appear to have the same skill as your average Shaolin-Do black belts.

However, my question is if there is not some level of scam involved why Then don't they just call it The' Family Fist or something and tell the truth about it's origins? Does Sin The have so little faith in his art?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

Radhnoti
04-17-2001, 05:50 AM
Apologies, Dragon 797 if you're a student of Master Hiang's, no disrespect was intended. The black belt I talked to about Master Hiang only said, "We all learned a lot from Hiang The' before he left, it's a family squabble and we (meaning the senior students I assume) try not to get involved." I'd also read or heard somewhere that he had stayed in Indonesia to continue studying with local masters before coming to the U.S. under his brother as an instructor in Shaolin-Do. Everyone in Shaolin-Do that knows him or OF him speaks of him with high regard...except Grandmaster Sin who speaks of him not at all.
BeiKongHui, it's interesting how everyone assumes they have cornered the market on "the truth". ;)

-Radhnoti

Inquisitor
04-17-2001, 06:41 AM
Thanks for the compliment on my UserName. I felt it was appropriate. =) Now, on to the reply:

================================
First off, Inquisitor let me compliment you upon an extremely appropriate name.
" LoL it isn't like what I am saying will get through to most of you anyway. There are proven psychological processes that will either ignore or discredit the FACT that Shaolin-Do is fake, just because *you don't want to be wrong*."
Neat bit of wordplay there. So, it's impossible that anyone would defend Shaolin-Do without a "psychological process" coming into play? Tell you what, you assume that I'm coming into this with an open mind and I'll assume that you're listening to what I have to say. We may both be fooling ourselves, but the alternative is that this is just an online diary in which we are only writing for ourselves. Right?
--------------------


The point I was trying to make when I commented on certain psychological processes was that it is near-impossible for me to change your mind using any sort of ethos, logos, or pathos. I was not making any sort of comment about your defending Shaolin-Do...


--------------------
"Why cannot even *one* other sifu say "Yes, I know Sin The, and I know or knew of his sifu. He is legitimate."?"
It seems to me that this would be quite insulting to Grandmaster Sin and quite presumptive of anyone else. I've read other articles on these boards with members saying that Grandmaster Sin's brother is "the real deal"...and they both learned from Grandmaster Ie.
--------------------


Actually, now that you mention it, it was intended to be quite insulting to "Grandmaster" Sin. To put it simply, I have no respect for the man (for reasons that you can probably guess). As for the comments about Sin's brother: if memory serves me correct, those statements were insinuating that Sin The is misrepresenting himself. Apparently Sin The and his brother learned an actual legitimate style of kungfu from their family, but Sin The decided to take that small knowledge and suddenly become the "Grandmaster Inheritor of All Shaolin Styles." As I have no information which cannot prove nor disprove those accusations, I will refrain from saying anything more about them. You still have yet to give me any sort of proof that would discredit the simple fact that no one would dare vouch for the skill of your vaunted "Grandmaster."


--------------------
"It is common knowledge that in kungfu, masters travel in circles. " The last issue of Kungfu Qigong mentions that Grandmaster Sin was welcomed by Eagle Claw Master Li li Hong, stating that he has been "a friend...for many years".
I'm fairly new to CMA, so, I can't speak knowledgably about the skill of my instructors vs. the skill of other masters. I CAN speak of the poor quality of video viewed over the internet. And I CAN state that watching my teacher perform the higher level tiger forms is awe inspiring for me. You can feel the intensity he radiates.
--------------------


I have never heard of this "Eagle Claw Master Li li Hong"... Also, I would not accept your evidenced based on the simple fact that Kungfu-Qigong magazine is paid to publish certain articles (and I am 100% sure that they were either paid to publish that article or the information from that article came from Shaolin-Do). Oftentimes, they write articles which contain false or unverified information simply because they were paid to. This is not only in reference to Shaolin-Do. I, along with several others on these boards I am sure, have my beef with the credibility of anything published in both Kungfu-Qigong and Inside Kungfu.
LoL also, thank you for pointing out something for me. First, you said that you have very little experience in the CMA. You then follow up that statement by declaring "I CAN speak of the poor quality of video viewed over the internet. And I CAN state that watching my teacher perform the higher level tiger forms is awe inspiring for me. You can feel the intensity he radiates." If you have very little knowledge in kungfu, and say yourself that you cannot really compare the differences between legitimate masters and your own instructors, what suddenly gives you the ability to compare the quality of the internet videos (which were not my only source of evidence) *and* the skill level of your teacher performing "higher level tigher forms." It may be "awe inspiring" for you, but to those who have been studying the traditional Chinese Martial Arts for several years, it looks like crap.

--------------------
As for the "yeah, but does it work?" argument. I have met an instructor in a nearby city who works as "security" at a local bar. The bar was KNOWN for the fights that erupted regularly. A rough place. He has since greatly improved the bar's reputation for safety. Yes, he did have to fight. And, yes, it did work. He's about 5'10'' and weighs about 165 lbs. and subdued players for the college football team weighing 300+. You can say, "maybe he got lucky" or "yeah, but maybe none of them could fight" or "imagine what he could have done with a REAL art!" if you want, but it sounds like sour grapes to me.
--------------------


One word: hearsay. Actually, make that two: unsubstantiated. Give me documented proof, or at least a widely-known and recognized story (i.e. the way of Wong Shun Leung and his fights in HK), of the skill of Shaolin-Do practitioners. I can say for a fact that there is none of the latter, and I have yet to see any of the former.

-------------------
"I know for a fact that Shaolin-Do is complete and utter bull****, is not what it claims to be, does not teach actual martial arts, and is cheating a lot of people out of their hard earned money." What I know for "a fact" is that I'm improving myself and I see my fellow students doing the same. Shaolin-Do has been all it claimed to be for me. I am learning an "actual" martial art. And I don't feel cheated at all.
--------------------


Again, I am forced to use your own words against you. I thought you had very little knowledge of the Chinese Martial Arts? How do you know that you and your fellow students are in fact "improving"? The people who practiced Chung Moo Doe, the people who studied at their local McDojo, they all felt like they were "improving." Does that actually mean that they were learning the actual art of pugilism, or that they are being spoon-fed a bunch of BS? Give me a break. So far you have done nothing but show that Shaolin-Do does not have any sort of information that can disprove ANY of the arguments which prove that it is a fraudulent martial art.


--------------------
UberShaman, I believe that Grandmaster Sin teaching "karate" goes back to the fact that he doesn't really care how his system is classified.

Brad, thanks for the good word. None of you know ME and I don't claim to know any of you. So, really there's no way for me to take anything said personally. I HAVE begun to see why senior Shaolin-Do students don't bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists though. It would have been much easier for me (still would be, in fact) to just ignore this thread. Maybe I'll know better next time.

-Radhnoti
==============================

None involved in Shaolin-Do "bother to interact or contradict statements made by other martial artists" because they have no information to the contrary. Look, I am not doing this out of any sort of spite for you or most of those involved with Shaolin-Do (note I say most, not all). As I have said before, this is for the benefit of those who have yet to make up their minds or have doubts about Shaolin-Do and simply need someone to tell them that it's okay to look elsewhere. I'm sorry that I can't get you to realize that Shaolin-Do is, in reality, a fake martial art.

dragon797
04-17-2001, 03:39 PM
*****************************
However, my question is if there is not some level of scam involved why Then don't they just call it The' Family Fist or something and tell the truth about it's origins?
********************************

Ie Chang Ming was the only family member. The other teachers were not related to Hiang. All of them immigrated to Indonesia from China where they had learned material from a variety of sources, some as a group and some individually. Those are the facts and Hiang has never presented them as anything else.t

Radhnoti
04-17-2001, 06:22 PM
dragon797 as one of the original teachers of Shaolin-Do I doubt you'll be able to distance Master Hiang from Grandmaster Sin. His association with the art lasted...what?...decades? He certainly never stepped forward and told any of Grandmaster Sin's students that the historical account they'd been given was false. Many senior students seem to hope that someday the brothers will patch things up and Master Hiang will return to Shaolin-Do.
Inquisitor, I feel like we're "point sparring" with these quotations...but such is the nature of message boards I suppose.
"The point I was trying to make when I commented on certain psychological processes was that it is near-impossible for me to change your mind using any sort of ethos, logos, or pathos. I was not making any sort of comment about your defending Shaolin-Do..."
You were saying that it's impossible to change my mind about Shaolin-Do because of "psychological processes". I was saying that you should probably drop the psycho-babble and save it for your patients. :rolleyes:
"As I have no information which cannot prove nor disprove those accusations, I will refrain from saying anything more about them. You still have yet to give me any sort of proof that would discredit the simple fact that no one would dare vouch for the skill of your vaunted Grandmaster."
I also have no information to prove or disprove, no one does. That's the problem with the shadowy history of the Shaolin Temples. No one vouches for Grandmaster Sin's skill, but I've yet to hear of a "master" from another style stepping forward to discredit him.
" If you have very little knowledge in kungfu, and say yourself that you cannot really compare the differences between legitimate masters and your own instructors, what suddenly gives you the ability to compare the quality of the internet videos (which were not my only source of evidence) *and* the skill level of your teacher performing "higher level tigher forms." It may be "awe inspiring" for you, but to those who have been studying the traditional Chinese Martial Arts for several years, it looks like crap."
What I was saying I COULD speak of was the quality of internet videos in general. Even with a cable modem RealPlayer videos have been compressed and seem choppy. I won't pretend experience enough to judge CMA forms, I can only offer what I feel. It impresses the hell out of me.
"One word: hearsay. Actually, make that two: unsubstantiated."
Unless someone has seen something themselves it's unsubstantiated and hearsay. The existance of China for me is hearsay, I've never been there. I've never met a Hung Gar student or instructor, does that make the effective reputation of that art form untrue? All we have to judge things we've not seen by is the word of others. I used to hear, "Don't go there. Too dangerous." when reference to the bar was made. Now I hear, "It's a nice place, they've really cleaned it up."
Yes, it may be hearsay but that doesn't make it not so.
"I thought you had very little knowledge of the Chinese Martial Arts? How do you know that you and your fellow students are in fact "improving"? ...Give me a break. So far you have done nothing but show that Shaolin-Do does not have any sort of information that can disprove ANY of the arguments which prove that it is a fraudulent martial art."
No, so far YOU have yet to prove Shaolin-Do is a fraudulent martial art. :D Improvement is in the eye of the beholder I suppose. I can do more push-ups...so I assume my upper body strength is improving. People that I've sparred in karate (I've been in a few other martial arts previously) that used to be able to beat me easily now say I'm tougher to handle. Long attempts to keep horsestance have strengthened my legs, helping me with my work in which I lift things regularly. I feel increased confidence in myself and my wife says I seem happier. All in all I don't think anyone could say Shaolin-Do hasn't improved me.
"I'm sorry that I can't get you to realize that Shaolin-Do is, in reality, a fake martial art."
And I'm sorry that I can't get you to see Shaolin-Do is a fine art for me, and probably for many others.

-Radhnoti

Johnny Hot Shot
04-17-2001, 09:52 PM
hey Brad is this guy in your videos from USSD "Kung- fu" ?

Brad
04-17-2001, 10:56 PM
All I know is the guy from those vids I posted is a 7 degree blackbelt in Shaolin-Do certified by Sin The(according to the website). He's located in Tennessee.

I think I'm going to post a new thread and list links to sites with video's of chinese martial arts just so anyone who wants to can compare and contrast.

Falcor
04-17-2001, 11:05 PM
Well, I guess if Shaolin-do makes you happy, despite what everyone says and despite the evidence that is in plain view, then I guess we (the general CMA community) really have nothing more to say. But consider this:

I may be an excellent guitar player. I may have learned it on my own, or learned it from a known teacher. And what I play may not exactly be jazz or blues, or rock or such, but what the hey, it makes me happy and that's that. Right? Now, if I were to open up a guitar school saying that I will teach you to play the guitar and simply that, witout making claims as to what particular style of guitar playing I teach, then I am being truthful and honest and I may actually make a good teacher. But, on the other hand, if I make claims to have studied jazz and blues from the greats, and that what I teach is the jazz and blues of BB King and Stevie Ray Vaughn and such, when my playing style i different from those of the greats and anyone who may have learned from them for real, then I am lying. I may still end up teaching you to play the guitar decently, but what I am claiming is a lie. If you don't care and you just wanna learn to play, well alrighty then. But if you wanna learn the particul;ar styles of King or Vaughn, legitimately tranmistted by them, then what I teach you will be false and you should look for someone else. It's the same thing with martial arts.

...don't think you are, know you are...

Falcor
04-17-2001, 11:09 PM
Another thought struck me. I checked out all the Shaolin-Do sites and addresses of schools and such, and it seems that they are all located in areas of the country with a low Asian population density. Places where the general public would have been l;ess exposed to legitimate CMA and thus would not have a standard to compare with. Interesting, isn't it?

By the way, are there any Shaolin-Do schools in places like NY, LA, or SF, or similar locations?

...don't think you are, know you are...

Radhnoti
04-17-2001, 11:50 PM
I really liked your first post Falcor. Great analogy. I suppose that if someone watched some movie and they KNEW somehow that what they were watching was a specific style of Kung Fu...and that's what they wanted to study, to get something different might be a let down. For me, I just wanted a well-rounded, effective martial art with a serious and traditional TONE. Meaning emphasis on courtesy, forms, discipline and application. Had Shaolin-Do been presented to me as a brand new fighting discipline I doubt I'd have cared after meeting my instructor and sitting in on a few of the classes. There is a basic flaw to your analogy however. There's documentation and recordings of the blues and jazz greats, when it comes to the Shaolin temples there's only supposition and word of mouth. You have no proof that what I am studying is not Shaolin in it's purest modern form. Nor do I have proof that it is. I think it's a great system (from what I've seen, I've only studied about 8 months now), and you'll note that MOST those who claimed to have studied it for any length of time say it's a fine style.
Maybe we can get dragon797 to bring Master Hiang onto the boards and settle the whole issue?
It seems to me that if he and his brother had a falling out, he WOULD be willing to discredit his brother with some sort of overwhelming evidence if any exists? :)
Hey, Inquisitor...when you rip into me next, you think you could open another thread to do it in? This is getting a bit long. ;)

-Radhnoti

Brad
04-18-2001, 04:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You have no proof that what I am studying is not Shaolin in it's purest modern form. [/quote]

Shaolin-Do teaches Taiji 24. This form was created in 1956 outside of the Shaolin Temple. Also Sai and Nunchucku(sp?) are Japanese weapons. Yang style Taiji is a family style created away from the temple also. Same goes for the other Taiji family styles. Also I would think if these styles were learned legitamately there would be some record or knowledge of Sin The or someone from his lineage among the Chen or Yang family. To tell the truth, I don't think any respected teachers have spoken out against Sin The because they either don't know about him, or they don't care as long as he stays away from them.

Inquisitor
04-18-2001, 08:38 AM
Thank you for proving my point. I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes.
What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed. Sin The is a fraud for all the reasons that I and others have mentioned. I am not going to waste my time reiterating myself when it is painfully visible to me that you have no intention of even listening to a word of it. If you had, then you would have never said something as utterly ludicrous as "No, so far YOU have yet to prove Shaolin-Do is a fraudulent martial art." The problems with your own self-styled "successful" defense against all of my arguments are that: A) You chose your battles. You ignored several of my key arguments such as the fact that Sin The teaches forms/styles outside of that which he claims knowledge of. Also, you ignored the fact that not only does Sin The teach things outside of his supposed system, but that he teaches things that are not even a part of the traditional Chinese Martial Arts. I could go on about other arguments, but I'd rather not. And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations (go ask any professor that teaches logic if that sort of rebuttal holds any sort of water). My argument was that HIS LINEAGE IS FAKE. I have already given my proof as to why I believe it to be so. Now it is your job to disprove me, or provide evidence to show that his lineage is in fact legitimate. Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently.

Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this. The proof is rampant throughout this entire thread that Sin The is a fake. If you wish to ignore the truth, then do so at your own folly.

Caveat Emptor

Radhnoti
04-18-2001, 04:27 PM
Sheesh Inquisitor, I didn't expect you to fall apart like that. Was it because I liked Falcor's arguement? Sue me, I like it when people use small words and analogies to bring about a revelation. ;)
"And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations."
So, it's ok for you to say you can't prove anything, but I need to produce some sort of documentation? I don't think (though I may be wrong...this has been a long discussion) I ever said nothing new had been incorporated into Shaolin-Do. Obvious things would be the Japanese gi and belt system. You obviously know more about the history of Taiji...or maybe that was Brad, anyway, perhaps other peripheral things have been added. Isn't that what the Shaolin Temples did for centuries? Catalog and Incorporate styles and forms?
"What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed."
:rolleyes: Yes, I'll try and live with the shame. All I can do is go on and try to live day to day. First, I don't think it's my "job" to defend Grandmaster Sin...and it's sort of pathetic if you think your "job" is to discredit him. Your posts were long, I broke down each point as I could and tried to respond with my admittedly amateurish responses. All in all, I feel I've given the best account of myself that someone who's been in a style for just 8 months might be expected to give. If you saying I'm a failure makes you feel better, good, this is an online forum with pseudonyms and you shouldn't feel bad, no matter what some joker writes about you or to you.
"I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes."
Fair enough, we can assume I'm a close minded psychotic, brain washed Sin The' chanting flunky. While YOU from your impartial view on high offered me truth and knowledge which, due to my indoctrination, I ignored. The fact is that I have listened to you, and I'll measure what I learn with your grain of salt. Have you heard anything I've said? Anything positive I've said you seem to brush away. Is your hatred so strong that you refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that someone could study Shaolin-Do and be happy?
"Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently."
Ok. Again, if a personal attack makes you feel better...it won't keep me up nights. ;)
"Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this."
Wow! We agree on something. :D

-Radhnoti

Anarcho
04-18-2001, 06:06 PM
Let me start by saying that I have no emotional commitment to Shaolin-Do being fake or genuine. I have looked at the website with the dog guy on it, and heard about the 984.713 forms involved, the weird Japanese stylings etc. all of which leads me to believe that it's probably bollocks...But who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, it doesn't worry me.

The question I have, though, is about how Shaolin-Do is seen by the rest of the CMA community. Several styles have more or less bitter political situations (Wing Chun, Northern Mantis, etc.), but noone seems to really doubt the skill of their rivals, just claims about being the sole inheritor of the system and that kind of thing. So, if Shaolin-Do is genuine, why do you think that it occupies this special position? Only the people who practice it seem to support its effectiveness, a situation which I've never encountered before except with really, really dodgy frauds. Anyway, I'd be interested in responses from any Shaolin-Do students.

BeiKongHui
04-18-2001, 09:01 PM
How many of you Shaolin Do guys teachers will let you train at other places while doing Shaolin Do?

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

dragon797
04-18-2001, 10:27 PM
Radhnoti: I am not a student of either man. I recently restored a friendship from my old days in school in Lexington that gives me an accurate account of events concerning Hiang The. I am here only to correct misinformation about Hiang, not get embroiled in this impossibly ridiculous debate that rears its ugly head on the internet from time to time.

Actually, Hiang does not speak poorly of his brother. He just wants to build his own group and establish its own identity based solely on the material he was taught. Most of the history and claims that generate the negative comments about Shaolin-do took their altered shape after the two brothers split around 1982. Before then, any silence on Hiang's part can be attributed to something called respect for the family's oldest brother, a very strong principle in Chinese culture.

Also, it's good to hear that some of those who have been around since the early days still have a positive opinion of Hiang. There are many good people from back then. It's sad that events turned out the way they did and that people had to choose between one brother or the other.
b

dragon797
04-18-2001, 10:31 PM
To BeiKongHui:
Concerning training in other styles: Hiang always told his students that if they could find a better martial arts practice, to let him know because he would send his kids there. I believe his children are still with him at the YMCA. (Sorry, I couldn't resist) If a student can keep up with 10 separate long forms per each rank (Black Belt levels), spar and attend classes regularly, then Hiang said they could always study whatever else they wanted. I say why go somewhere else when you haven't even learned everything one system has to offer? That's a personal choice.

From my own experience, I find that sparring with people from other groups usually turns into trouble. If you are getting the best of them, they resort with cheap shots and with more than the agreed on contact. Defending yourself on the street is one thing, ANYTHING goes, but I'm past walking around with loose teeth and black eyes from "friendly" sparring with strangers. If you're in Lexington, try a pick-up basketball game at UK or Douglas Park some Sunday. Once you start throwing it down on a guy, half the time he'll start to foul you, then there will be an argument, and then a fight. I'll just rent a gym and play with my buds.

Radhnoti
04-18-2001, 11:26 PM
Anarcho, as far as I can tell (I've been wrong before though) MOST don't question Shaolin-Do's effectiveness, just the lineage. It might also be said that SINCE the lineage is so questioned some question the effectiveness. Several posters who weren't/aren't Grandmaster Sin's students have commented that they feel Shaolin-Do is an effective martial art in this thread.
BeiKongHui, my instructor believes much as dragon797 has said Master Hiang does. He and I have attended seminars given by local instructors from other styles. My teacher's teacher is another story entirely. I was once told of a fellow he had taught into the lower black belts who went to another SHAOLIN-DO instructor. He refuses to speak of him or acknowledge that he exists. "He is dead to me.", is a phrase reported to have come from his mouth. So, I suppose that it depends upon the teacher.
dragon797, I also feel it is a sad situation. The respectful tone used when anyone speaks of Master Hiang seems to indicate that he is a fine person as well as an excellent martial artist and teacher.

-Radhnoti

Talon
04-19-2001, 06:41 PM
Why didn't Master Hiang ever say anything before? Nobody knows for sure I don't think. The fact is, he came over to this country separately
from his brother and taught on his own for quite a while. They teamed up for reasons I'm not sure on, but on the surface it would look to be a
perfect situation. Two high ranking brothers teaching an art together. Maybe they thought they had a better chance of success working
together. However, Master Hiang never submitted himself to Sin's version of the story and it can be assumed he didn't like what Sin was doing so that is why they split. Sin's storytelling has grown leaps and bounds over the years, and the more it has grown, the more Master Hiang has distanced himself from his brother. Master Hiang has never made extraordinary claims about himself or the art he teaches. He is very upfront about what he knows and what he doesn't and who he learned what from. As to someone else's comment earlier, the only students that would ever want Sin and Hiang to get back together are maybe Sin's students. I'm not even sure on that.
Hiang's students only view Sin with the same questions as does the rest of the martial arts community. Maybe even worse. Sin is an
embarrasment to their art and they will probably never be able to completely distance themselves from him. As to what Master Hiang thinks, from what I'm told he rarely says a lot on the subject. This is due to lots of reasons I'm sure. He wants to concentrate on his own
stuff, he is embarrassed by the whole thing, and maybe a lingering sense of respect to his older brother.
To Bei Kong Hiu (I know that's misspelled, sorry), I'm sure your teachers are reputable and are well known masters in their own right. Just out of curiousity, and I do mean that sincerely, other than the wing chun, the other style of kung fu taught at your school is simply titled "Chinese Martial Arts". What type of kung fu is that and what are it's origins?

BeiKongHui
04-20-2001, 12:59 AM
I have always heard that Hiang is on the level but I've never personally met him. I do know his students speak highly of him and if what you say is true it is a tragedy he has been victimized as such by his brother.
Ah, you must have a phone book ;)
The owner of the school has trained in several different styles of Kung Fu and several other martial arts and is an NHB competitor. I do not train under him so I really can't give your more specifics. Go in & talk to him he's a cool guy! I do know that they call the class chinese combatives and it seems to work pretty well because he's taken many multiple black belts, etc who couldn't fight and taught them how. I think a former student of Hiang's trains in it (who speaks well of him, btw) perhaps you know him and can get a better answer.

Also, can you tell us Hiang's side of the story? I'm sure people would love to hear the truth about Shaolin-Do.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 04-20-01 at 04:13 PM.]

Talon
04-20-2001, 01:37 AM
Well, I know a lot about what has gone on in the past, not from personal experience, but the info comes from the people that were there. However I don't think it is necessary to spill out the entire past for everyone to see, not because it's a secret but mainly because Master Hiang doesn't want that, again it goes back to the fact him and Sin are brothers and I'm sure he doesn't want to badmouth him. His actions speak for themselves. As dragon797 said, Hiang is now teaching his own art and is trying very hard to make his own identity. Again, the actions speak for themselves.
One little factoid that is well known among Hiang's students, and maybe some shaolin-do students is that Sin tried to sue a student of Hiang's years back for copyright infringement, trying to keep him from teaching the material out (because he says he is the grandmaster). When the day in court came and Sin produced notes for the material that he had back from his days in Indonesia, Hiang matched him note for note. And then there were notes for material Hiang had, that Sin didn't, including at least one very basic piece of material (the short stick form taught at green belt). Does this mean Hiang has 950 katas (the # Sin claims)? No, Hiang has somewhere around 100-150, I'm not sure exactly. So where does Sin keep picking up new material trying to reach that self proclaimed # of 950? I'll leave everyone to their own theories.
There is a very good reason a lot of Sin's senior students respect Hiang. He taught them a lot of stuff Sin can't, because he never learned it himself.
I'm not trying to stir up any bad blood, but, the facts are the facts. I don't see anything wrong with people knowing the facts. And living in Lexington, I'm sure you are very aware of the type of marketing that goes on with Sin's school. They pay off the Shaolin temple to put a tablet up, then they pay the Horse Park to let them demonstrate during the China exhibit last summer, then they pay Joseph Beth to do demonstrations at the book store. All the while acting like these were all honors and invitations thrust upon them.
I guess I should stop for now, I'm starting to go off .
:D

BeiKongHui
04-20-2001, 01:47 AM
That's cool. The Sin The' thing can be really frustrating. Do you currently train? They also have a Wushu teacher & a Jeet Kune Do teacher if your interested in CMA's.

"Gong Sao Mo Gong Ching Sao"
- When you talk with the hands,
best not to speak of polite hands.

[This message was edited by BeiKongHui on 04-20-01 at 04:56 PM.]

Talon
04-20-2001, 11:52 PM
Unfortunately right now I don't. I do a lot of travelling with my current job so that prevents me from keeping up regular attendance at a school. I do however practice on my own and continue to work out.

SanHeChuan
04-21-2001, 01:17 AM
so where does Hiang teach and what styles does he teach? do he have a web site? 100+ form still seems like alot.

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

Talon
04-21-2001, 02:19 AM
Hiang teaches in Ky. His homebase is Lexington and there are students of his teaching in various parts of central and eastern Ky.
His specialty is a type of bird called tai peng I think (should probably verify that with someone more in the know).
100+ forms is a huge amount, too much for me to be honest. But in all fairness to the system, I have seen quite a few other styles that have way more than that. I have heard of a style of praying mantis (it was either seven star or 8 step Im not sure) that has 120 empty hand forms alone! Not to mention the weapons. Choy li fut comes to mind as another style that has a lot of forms (close to 200 is what I've heard on various occasions).

Radhnoti
04-21-2001, 04:28 AM
Just a quick update, Hiang The' has declared himself to be the Grandmaster of CHUNG YEN SHAOLIN. The forms are exactly the same as what is taught in Shaolin-Do, there are still belts, and a gi. :cool:
Hope he does well. If anyone wants the website, I got this from I'll try to post it...especially if someone explains how to do it. :)

-Radhnoti

SanHeChuan
04-21-2001, 04:50 AM
to post the web site just type the ULR (web address) it's nothing special

"Civilize the mind but make savage the body"

Inquisitor
04-21-2001, 12:47 PM
==============================
Sheesh Inquisitor, I didn't expect you to fall apart like that. Was it because I liked Falcor's arguement? Sue me, I like it when people use small words and analogies to bring about a revelation.
--------------------

Hah okay, I don't know where you got that I somehow "fell apart," but if you say so... And your reply to Falcor's post was typical to your, shall we say, "style" of writing. You disregarded the whole point of his argument and went on a tangent.


--------------------
"And B) You used flawed, runaround logic in each and every one of your rebuttals against my statements. When I made a statement like "No one can substantiate Sin The's claimed lineage," you would counter with something like "Well...we can't prove that he's what he says he is, but you can't prove that he isn't!" Give me a break. This isn't the 3rd Grade anymore. Try actually using information to rebut my statements, rather than inane and argumentatively useless accusations."
So, it's ok for you to say you can't prove anything, but I need to produce some sort of documentation? I don't think (though I may be wrong...this has been a long discussion) I ever said nothing new had been incorporated into Shaolin-Do.
--------------------


No, it is not okay for me not to prove something. The whole point that I was trying to make (and you so deftly avoided) was that I had already proven certain things, such as the fact that Sin The's lineage cannot be substantiated. Go look back in my previous posts. I said something like "No one has ever heard of Su Kong Tai Djin or Ie Chang Ming, and no one can vouch for the skill of Sin The." Also, your little trick to use say that you never said that anything new wasn't incorporated into Shaolin-Do... I have news for you: the fact that you never said that nothing new was incorporated into Shaolin-Do doesn't change the basis of the argument being made. "GRANDMASTER" SIN THE CLAIMS TO HAVE THE SUM OF ALL KNOWLEDGE OF SHAOLIN KUNGFU. HE ALSO CLAIMS THAT HIS ONLY TEACHER IN THE CHINESE MARTIAL ARTS IS IE CHANG MING. IF THAT IS TRUE, WHY DOES HE TEACH NON-SHAOLIN FORMS? HOW CAN HE CLAIM THAT TAI CHI CHUAN, A STYLE DESCENDED FROM WUDANG, HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH THE SHAOLIN TEMPLE? NOT ONLY THAT, BUT WHY IS THE TAI CHI THAT HE TEACHES INCONSISTENT WITH THE TRADITIONAL STYLES?
Also, since one can prove that he got some of his vaunted "knowledge" from things such as books/videos/etc, could it not be viable that *all* of his knowledge stems from such materials?
Hopefully the uppercase made things more clear for you.

--------------------
Obvious things would be the Japanese gi and belt system. You obviously know more about the history of Taiji...or maybe that was Brad, anyway, perhaps other peripheral things have been added. Isn't that what the Shaolin Temples did for centuries? Catalog and Incorporate styles and forms?
--------------------


Actually, I was the first one in this thread to point out that the Tai Chi Chuan being taught in Shaolin-Do was in fact non-traditional. Brad helped to clear things up by bringing in more details. Yes, but the way the Shaolin Temples did things were completely different from the way that Sin The is doing things. Okay, let's say that Sin The supposedly *did* somehow incorporate Tai Chi Chuan into the Shaolin-Do curriculum (hypothetical situation). If that were true, why does he use the modern wushu Tai Chi forms? Would it not be better for him to contact one of the traditional Tai Chi masters and learn from that person? Oh, of course not. He can just go buy a book and learn the forms from there. It'll be just as good as the original stuff! Give me a break. Again, you used faulty logic and tried to divert attention from the argument.


--------------------
"What really gets to me is that you have the gall to mock me and say that *I* have not done my job of discrediting Sin The, when I have very simply and clearly done so. The fact of the matter is that I did my job, and it was your job to defend against those arguments. You failed."
Yes, I'll try and live with the shame. All I can do is go on and try to live day to day. First, I don't think it's my "job" to defend Grandmaster Sin...and it's sort of pathetic if you think your "job" is to discredit him. Your posts were long, I broke down each point as I could and tried to respond with my admittedly amateurish responses.
--------------------


Blah blah blah blah blah. You took up the position of defending Shaolin-Do. When I and others presented you with arguments, you were supposed to defend against them. Just because I chose to use the word "job" does not detract from those facts. Also, if you did not think that it was important to you to defend "Grandmaster" Sin, then why did you start? Apparently you don't know how the human brain works. The only reason you would put time and effort into doing something like this would be because, on a certain level, Shaolin-Do (and hence, "Granmdaster" Sin) is important to you. And to claim that it is "pathetic" to be on my side of the fence... No comment.

--------------------
All in all, I feel I've given the best account of myself that someone who's been in a style for just 8 months might be expected to give. If you saying I'm a failure makes you feel better, good, this is an online forum with pseudonyms and you shouldn't feel bad, no matter what some joker writes about you or to you.
--------------------


Again, blah blah blah blah blah. You diverted the argument from the fact that you could not adequately defend Shaolin-Do to the idea that it is somehow wrong of me to point out that you failed. LoL and then you suddenly present the idea that it somehow makes me feel better (a.k.a. "helps my self-esteem" or "makes me a bigger man") by putting you down (which I did not)...

--------------------
"I was unable to change your mind because of, you guessed it, certain psychological processes."
Fair enough, we can assume I'm a close minded psychotic, brain washed Sin The' chanting flunky. While YOU from your impartial view on high offered me truth and knowledge which, due to my indoctrination, I ignored. The fact is that I have listened to you, and I'll measure what I learn with your grain of salt. Have you heard anything I've said? Anything positive I've said you seem to brush away. Is your hatred so strong that you refuse to acknowledge even the POSSIBILITY that someone could study Shaolin-Do and be happy?
--------------------


For starters, I *have* listened to practically everthing that you have written in this thread. That is why I reply to each and every word that you have written (and separated them into coherent paragraphs, at that). It would be very hard for me to rebut your arguments unless I were able to read and understand what you wrote. Secondly, you insinuate that somehow this debate should have been completely impartial. I hate to break it to you, but that isn't the way the world works. It is a given that you are on the side of Shaolin-Do, and that I am on the side against Shaolin-Do. What I say is biased, and what you say is biased. That should be recognized, as it is true. However, it should not detract from the fact that I and others have presented arguments against Shaolin-Do that make perfect sense, and that you have either completely ignored or "rationalized" in some way.
I'm getting more and more annoyed when you start bringing feelings and emotions into this whole mess. You say things like "I am in awe of Shaolin-Do" and "Well, Shaolin-Do makes me happy!" when they bring no merit to your defense. So what if it makes you happy? That has no bearing on whether or not Shaolin-Do is fake. And yes, Shaolin-Do is FAKE. It is FRAUDULENT. IT DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A MARTIAL ART. IT IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE. I'll address that new thread on the main forum when I have the chance. For now, let's stick to this one...

--------------------
"Oh, I'm sorry, I was expecting too much of you. I was expecting you to respond intelligently."
Ok. Again, if a personal attack makes you feel better...it won't keep me up nights.
"Okay, I'm sick and tired of arguing about this."
Wow! We agree on something.
-Radhnoti
===============================


Nice try, but that won't fly with me. I said that I expected you to respond intelligently. That can be taken to mean that your responses were not intelligent, but it is a stretch of the imagination to somehow imply that I somehow think that you are stupid or that you are unintelligent. The fact that I expected *better* of you should show you how I feel about "how smart you are." Never, ever insinuate that I would resort to personal attacks to win an argument. That is the tactic of George W. Bush, not me.
And, BTW, just because I'm sick and tired of arguing about Shaolin-Do doesn't mean that I will stop. =)

dragon797
04-21-2001, 06:30 PM
After returning from a 5 year stay in Indonesia to be with his family, Hiang The (The "The" family name can also be translated from the Chinese character as Chen), he began to actively teach full-time again in Lexington, KY last year in conjunction with the YMCAs of Lexington. To clearly separate himself from brother Sin's group and establish his own identity, Hiang decided to return to the ORIGINAL name his teachers used for their style in Indonesia: Chung Yen Shaolin, or Central Area Shaolin. The name Chung Yen Shaolin is inscribed on the specialty medallions and rank certificates Hiang earned from his teachers. The Shaolin-Do name was started by Sin when he came to the US in 1964 and started teaching.

Hiang received his sixth degree rank before he came to the US in 1968 to attend college at the University of Kentucky. Grandmaster Ie passed away in August 1968 (note that Sin claims Ie died in 1976! There is a picture of Ie’s gravestone with the correct date) and then Hiang returned to Indonesia in 1974 to receive his seventh degree from Liu Su Peng, one of Ie’s original partners and then head of the school after Ie’s death. Hiang returned again in early 1978, but Liu Su Peng died shortly before that and the original group was beginning to split up. Hiang was offered control but turned it down to return to the US.

Hiang is the highest-ranking student of the original Chung Yen Shaolin group. Sin’s certificate from January 15, 1964 shows that the last rank he tested for was 5th degree and he never returned to Indonesia for rank advancement. When Hiang made the decision to re-create the original group in his own name here, he rightfully claimed to be its head. He has approximately 120 long forms, of which he has taught around 85-90. One proof of this is that Hiang requires students to make a video tape of their material as part of their test for higher ranks. He currently has one student who just tested for seventh degree and another sixth degree that have performed all these forms on video. Hiang continues to teach new material to his advanced group and plans to teach the rest his material within the next 5 years.

By the way, the web site you may be referring to is from one of Hiang’s student’s students and is mostly, but not completely accurate. One of Hiang’s senior students is currently working on an official website for the group in conjunction with the Lexington YMCAs.

Radhnoti
04-22-2001, 12:15 AM
Thanks for the info dragon797. Inquisitor, I PROMISE I'll plow through your post when I get some more time this week. I know, I know, you can't wait can you? :rolleyes:
Anyone that hasn't Destrous9's thread on "fake" martial arts, I'd suggest doing so. He seems to be a far wiser man than I. 'Course how hard is that? :)

-Radhnoti

Radhnoti
04-22-2001, 10:31 PM
Wow, what a difference a day makes. For the first time I didn't have time to immediately respond...and now I see that we've degenerated from me giving my point of view and you giving yours, to silly wordplay.
I hope this is the last quote I'll take from you to make a point Inquisitor.
"And yes, Shaolin-Do is FAKE. It is FRAUDULENT. IT DOES NOT QUALIFY AS A MARTIAL ART. IT IS NOT WHAT IT CLAIMS TO BE. " If it's ok with you, I'll just boil that down as your viewpoint, ok? A number of folks agree with you.
I disagree. So do a number of others that have posted in this thread. My previous posts state my position, as your posts show yours...besides, this thread is already longer than any other I've seen here. ;)
My stupid macho side is BEGGING me to pick out what you've said at tear at it. So, the WISE thing for me to do MUST be to just let it go. No?
This thread has been my introduction to this forum, but other threads have already taught me a lot. Thanks for a spirited debate. :D
No doubt we'll square off elsewhere on this issue...but, I'll try to stay away from quoting you and speak a bit more generally. See you on the boards.

-Radhnoti

Johnny Hot Shot
06-03-2001, 08:25 AM
Is what Mattera Paid to get his 10th DAN given to him from the Shaolin Monks. Crazy

"Life's a great adventure, mate."
Jacko Jackson

MonkeySlap Too
06-14-2001, 07:44 PM
http://www.ohioshaolin-do.com/internal.html

Lists Liu Ha Pa Fa as a 'style' taught at Shaolin Do. As I happen to be acquainted with many of the students of Wai Lun Choi, the legitimate head of this style, I extend an offer to any 'Shaolin-Do' master or student.

I can arrange a meeting with master Choi or one of his students to evaluate this Liu Ha Pa Fa Shaolin-Do teaches.

I think we will find that it is yet another demonstration of fraud on the part of this organization.

Feel free to eMail me, and I will be happy to try to set this up.

Good luck on trying to learn this style from video!!

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

rocky
06-15-2001, 01:14 AM
MonkeySlapToo, Why are you so hell bent to discredit shaolin-do masters or practioners. I'm not a student of shaolin-do But, I know some people in that art they work hard at it. Just because it don't match what you do. It still a martial art of some type. Just because it is not a monkey steals the peach routine. Or the master didn't make the 100 top masters of kung fu in china yours may have or have not. We all can't be like you or your famous masters. Get a grip pal its only shaolin do. Cheers.

Sharky
06-15-2001, 01:39 AM
yea but it *IS* a bit gay tho, admit it...

Edd

My anus is superior™

MonkeySlap Too
06-15-2001, 01:50 AM
I don't care if someone is happy with it. I don't care if someone does something different than me. (If you knew me, you'd know that is a ridiculous thought.) I do care if someone is misrepresenting themselves to make a buck. I have become convinced that they are lying to the public. It has nothing to do with me, but it has a lot to do with people I respect. Please see the other posts by myself and people like Brad.

This is a bigger issue. I am sure there are plenty of fine people in Shaolin Do, but that should not prevent someone from telling the emperor he ain't got no clothes.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

IronFist
06-15-2001, 09:11 AM
"I do care if someone is misrepresenting themselves to make a buck. "

Hell yeah, MonkeySlap Too.

It's like Ashida Kim. While I don't give two craps if what he teaches is effective or not, it ****es me off to no end that he calls the crap he teaches "ninjutsu" (oh sorry, my bad, he calls it "ninjitsu" with an "i").

It's false representation, and it's ******* bull****

Iron

The Willow Sword
06-15-2001, 09:16 AM
this is the first time that i have seen this being offered. is li hou ba fa part of the meteor fist system? in GM SIN's book it talks about it only fleetingly,,,I have never seen it myself....whereas i have the classical pakua form and hsing-i and taichi,,,,i have yet to learn the
official combination forms. i actually have been doing stuff on my own but would like to see and possibly go to a seminar to learn this material.
monkey,,you and i have gotten on the wrong foot. i would like to be able to discuss things with you in an intelligent manner and share ideas and thoughts. even though i am a SD disciple. i am not as inept as you might think.
Many respects, willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.

Brad
06-15-2001, 05:29 PM
One thing I've been wondering, are Liu He Ba Fa and Waterboxing the same system? There's a guy here in Colombus who teaches Waterboxing but I haven't had a chance to talk to him yet. All I know is that it's supposed to be based off of a combination of Taiji, Xingyi, & Bagua and very few actually know it well enough to teach it.

MonkeySlap Too
06-17-2001, 08:09 PM
Hey Willow, I'll eMail you my number at some point today - I am running and on the road, but if you leave me yours, I'll definitely call back.

I saw your post on Park Bok Nam, and I'd be happy to share notes with you.

Brad
Liu Ho Pa Fa is often called 'Water Boxing'. Be wary of the Modern Wushu version.

Many people teach it, but the full knowledge of the art is held by Wai Lun Choi. Choi pretty much knows who 'has' it or not, and what the different teachers skill levels are. He's a real nice guy, and very honest.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Fu-Pow
07-23-2001, 01:01 AM
There you have it folks. Out of 46 literate members reporting...and one guy who just passed out on his mouse. 41 believe Shaolin-Do to be a fraud perpetuated by Sin The. And 6 of you hapless souls believe it to be the real deal. More "hard" statistical evidence that Shaolin-do has no direct link to the Shaolin temple. What more would it take to convince you guys...for gosh sakes!!!!
Fu-Pow

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Radhnoti
07-23-2001, 02:36 AM
Wow, who can argue with statistics like that, huh?
Anyone who wants to can check out his post, my objection to the wording is there. The wording should have been, "Who here dislikes/hates/loathes/generally any negative emotions Shaolin-Do?"
What a shock, SD isn't too popular on these boards. :rolleyes:

-Radhnoti

The Willow Sword
07-23-2001, 09:29 AM
You have got to be Fu# kidding me man. do you actually think that a poll of biased opinions on ONE forum is gonna sway any of US SD disciples to revert change or repent what you consider to be our fake ,,fraudulent kungfu? Are you that Inept at thinking? :rolleyes:
MAny Respects, Willow Sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Ironpig
07-23-2001, 06:15 PM
Whatever...

Why argue the point?

They will not alter the advertisement,
heck, if I could sell more donuts by putting the "shoalin" name on it I would.

Get your Shoalin Donuts here! Bohdidharma bagels! Abbot apple struedel! Authentic Shoalin handed down from the secret temple in germany!

In reality, the best thing to do is to encourage people to practice and to learn. If the students there feel they are being given something of value...who are we to question it?

I would care more if my family was tied into it and losing money and quality of life.

All the students who post who take classes there seem pretty content with the training.

Good for them!

It may be fabricated, but at least they practice and are happy..more than some can say!

just a few pennies from a pig.....

IronPig

Fu-Pow
07-23-2001, 08:24 PM
I just figured out what SD practitioners remind me of. They are like that guy in class who has a note pinned to his back. Everyone is laughing and snickering behind his back and he is oblivious to the note. Yet he is so insecure that he thinks people "hate" him for some reason. When in fact they are really just laughing at the note. Social cues can be important sometimes....if 41/48 people on this forum think Shaolin-do is fraud doesn't that at least give you pause. BTW, I think other groups are fraudulent not just Shaolin-do, including the people that inhabit the Shaolin Temple right now!!!! They do sport Wushu, for god sakes, and then pass it off as "Shaolin".

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

The Willow Sword
07-23-2001, 08:51 PM
when you insult a school and a system of martial arts you are ALSO insulting the students of that school and system of martial arts. or have you no understanding of this? guess not.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

IronFist
07-24-2001, 07:53 AM
Fu-Pow, don't listen to them, cuz I think your poll RULED!!! Apparently 6 people were either smoking crack, or accidently clicked on the wrong poll option.

Iron

lukrion
07-24-2001, 04:49 PM
What is this controvery? What is Shaolin Do? I've seen a few threads on this but what is the root of controvery?

Is Shaolin-DO an interchangable label for Shaolin Kung Fu practicioners or is this supposed to be some Karate system based in the techniques of Shaolin?

Fu-Pow
07-24-2001, 07:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> when you insult a school and a system of martial arts you are ALSO insulting the students of that school and system of martial arts. or have you no understanding of this? guess not. [/quote]

How did I insult you? I don't even know you. Look, I took a popular opinion poll. I posted the results. I made an observation that Shaolin-Do practitioners were unflinching in their belief in the history of Shaolin-Do. Why do you guys think everybody hates you because you do Shaolin-Do? To me that is a cop out. Did ever occur to you that the people that voted in the poll, truly believe Shaolin-Do to be a fraud. Not just a fraud committed against MA but committed against the practitioners as well? That means you. Stand up for your style if it is really worth it to you. Show us the real history, the facts, the integrity of Grandmaster Sin The. You've got access to a scanner right? All we've seen so far is semantic arguments and "you guys hate us." All we've heard is I have "faith" in my style and I don't have to prove it too anyone. Why don't you just go bury your head in the sand while your at it. Show us the money, for christ's sake!!!! ;)

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Dark Knight
07-24-2001, 07:18 PM
Im not familiar with the style. I have to agree on the choice of names but I have heard worse.

If you call it fraud, based on what are you doing this? many styles can be traced back to Shaolin but not look like it today. What makes it fraud? Is it effective?

Radhnoti
07-24-2001, 07:24 PM
Fu-Pow, would you consider looking at things from our perspective for once? "Stand up for your style if it is really worth it to you. Show us the real history, the facts, the integrity of Grandmaster Sin The.", you said. Ok, how do we do that, exactly? Or, to be more precise, how would YOU do that? We've related personal experiences which everyone quickly dismisses. I've cited articles here and there, it's dismissed as SD propaganda. I've mentioned other CMA instructors interacting with and in some cases befriending Grandmaster Sin, this is also dismissed. Respectfully, how do you suggest we approach your challenge?

-Radhnoti

reemul
07-25-2001, 08:02 AM
How about in the early late 80's early 90's, Sin went through San Antonio trying to recruit MA schools to follow him as if he were some sort of messiah. Instead of just opening up a school, he tried to convert schools of other styles to Shaolin do.

How bogus is that, Oh yeah he came to our school trying to do that.

Fu-Pow
07-25-2001, 06:59 PM
Give us a consistent, non-supernatural history of Shaolin-do....without the wolf boy!!!!!

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

reemul
08-16-2001, 10:49 PM
Having emailed our school, The Willow Sword painted the picture of his wounded honor and sought the response of my instructor. For what reason I'm not sure. As far as I was concerned this was a personal matter, however after reading TWS's email, my instructor had this to say about TWS's challenge.

"I'm tired of Japanese and Korean systems as well as others, capitalizing off the Shaolin name. I spent the majority of my life dedicated to the survival of a shaolin system that would have otherwise gone extint and it is quite irritating when Kiddy Karate schools try to pass them selves off as kungfu let alone Shaolin kungfu. Your challenge is accepted."

He called me to inform the forum to bear witness to the following. We do not do Kiddy Karate point sparring, We generally do 2 minute rounds of full contact. Anything along those lines are acceptable. He would also like to add that after the sparring we will share some formwork just to show a spirit of friendship.

Radhnoti
08-16-2001, 11:12 PM
He calls it "kiddy karate", then shows interest in "The Spirit of Friendship"?
In any case, I'm glad this thing's going to happen. Is HE going to spar TWS or you? And is it going to be on the neutral ground JWT mentioned, or somewhere else? Witnesses from the forum are still invited I hope? SOMEONE'S got to get JWT's cookies of honor. ;)
Um...someone else might want to repeat my questions as reemul has said he'd ignore my posts.
:D

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

MonkeySlap Too
08-16-2001, 11:20 PM
Alrighty then.

May I recommend neutrual ground, and someone like JWT as the ref.

May I also suggest video tape?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

shaolin_knight
08-16-2001, 11:24 PM
He calls it "kiddy karate", then shows interest in "The Spirit of Friendship"?
In any case, I'm glad this thing's going to happen. Is HE going to spar TWS or you? And is it going to be on the neutral ground JWT mentioned, or somewhere else? Witnesses from the forum are still invited I hope? SOMEONE'S got to get JWT's cookies of honor. :)

Radhnoti
08-17-2001, 12:09 AM
Thanks S_K.
:)

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

reemul
08-17-2001, 02:39 AM
It's gonna be me who is to fight TWS, however my instructor has also extended the challenge to Joe Shaefer as Well, Seeing as Willow has seen fit to make what I considered a personal matter, a school wide afair.

jjr213
08-17-2001, 04:26 AM
I know exactly how all of you feel. I've been a TKD student for 15 years now and I always hated it when those who were ignorant referred to everything as karate. I'm making a transition into shaolin kung fu, and the first thing I saw was that while my long experience in TKD will help me with some of the smaller aspects of kung fu, on the whole they are completely different.

MonkeySlap Too
08-17-2001, 04:46 AM
Actually, TKD was derived from Shotokan Karate.

All the original forms were right out of Karate Do Kyohan. Even the names were translated into Korean.

What's the big deal?

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

The Willow Sword
08-17-2001, 08:35 AM
OKay first of all the reason for attempting to e-mail master Finley(Reemuls' Teacher) was to assertain why Reemul was being so disresepctful of other martial systems And to inform him of the challege and the insult to me and my school on the forums. Well reemul caught the e-mail and responded by saying that i was "so full of crap". and as we have all seen with this "official response" to My challenge " it would seem to me that MAster finley is teaching his students and instructors to be disrespectfull to other disciplines,,namely ours the most ,it would seem. Well that is a shame,,For Master Shaefer does not teach this to us and i have certainly not taught this ideology to the students at SD.
2 minutes of full contact HUH? You got it,,thats fine with me. so what does FULL contact mean exactly? does it mean that i can fully contact your throat ,temple,,groin? or are there going to be rules to this "full contact" event before the forms are shown? like i said before,,,this will be on neutral ground and MY TEACHER WILL HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS. This is my crusade not his,,you want to challenge master shaefer,,go on ahead but he does not frequent this forum so you had better call him up and make the challenge yourself. and I have not made this a school wide thing, REEMUL has by printing out my email to his school and lollygagging aroud with excuses about coming to his school to issue the challenge and the conflicting statements that RAD has been tuned into.
SO the place: Zilker Park, by the theatre at barton springs pool(its nice and secluded enough)
when: November(to be determined when i know when exactly i will be getting there)[a week before thanksgiving]most likeley a saturday or sunday.
Time: lets make it 1:00pm. the yang energies will be at thier strongest then,,will make for a good spar.

Ill post when november arrives,,until then,,,,keep training Reemul. oh and by the way,,,I have never said anything bad about your school or your discipline,,,,thats the difference between you and i, SFB! i fight for honor,,and you fight to save face. that is also the difference between you and i.
Many respects,,,Willow Sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Anarcho
08-17-2001, 08:57 AM
Mate, you e-mailed his Sifu. No offence, and I'm not taking sides in this exciting drama, but you did make it a school-wide matter by doing that. If it was just going to be between you and him, you should have kept it between you and him.

diego
08-17-2001, 09:01 AM
between honor and face?

The Willow Sword
08-17-2001, 05:18 PM
Honor: Good name or public esteem, a showing of merited respect. A keen sense of ethical conduct.
INTEGRITY(something Reemul does not have). To live up to or fufill the terms of.

FACE(as in to save face): The apparent Value or significance,(if reemuls remarks can be taken at face value,) To confront(Face up) to a situation being AVOIDED(face up to the situation).

SO you all got the differences now????

Many Respects,,Willow SWord

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

reemul
08-17-2001, 05:20 PM
First of all I am respectful of other systems. What you took as an insult was simply my personal opinion given my personal experience with your system on topic that was about SD. This is a forum of discussion and not everyone will see eye to eye and as people have pretty much figured out about me and a few others on the forum, some of us are not as PC about everything we say. You don't see me getting bent just cuz someone thinks our school is not lagit. As for my instructor teaching us to be "haters" don't think so. My teacher hasn't had anything to say about your school to us or anybody else until you emailed him. You keep trying to come off as the honorable
warrior, wounded by an evil jakal and you're the one who's been slinging insults more than anyone.
As for the "Kiddy Karate", No offense to the "true" Karate practioners, you know who you are. This comment was aimed at the "Belt machines".

[This message was edited by reemul on 08-18-01 at 08:34 AM.]

Radhnoti
08-17-2001, 09:50 PM
Polite subjects:
To TWS and Radhnoti : You ignorant Fu$%*
To Dumb & Dumber aka TWS and Radhnoti
To Radhnoti, your a dumba$$
actually you dumba$$
Polite posts:
"The both of you need to get some serious reading comprehension skills. I'm starting to believe that you are both retarded."
"Ya know I'm starting think I should'nt accept the challenge. Don't know if I could live with myself
for beating up a retard."
"As far as SD putting out good fighters my opinion was formed from me shamelessly beating them so easily and from a friend who also recieved no comp from so called SD instructors. TWS challenged me, cuz I know how to push his buttons. I'm sure it's possible SD may have a few people who can fight, no thanks to SD (naturals). "
"As far as Nov. is concerned, when I'm done with Willow you guys can send Joe in, or maybe even GM Sin. If this is what offends you, too Fu#$#n bad."
"When we meet I will introduce my self as reemul, and when you get your ass beat, you can tell everyone you got your ass beat by reemul."

"I just hope Willow's defeat doesn't crush your spirit. Oh and don't worry I'll remove you nose from Willow's a$$ in the process."
"As for checking out the SD class of wussies forget about it. I've watched Shaolin do classes and have yet to be impressed."
"The History of the Shaolin Do system is far beyond questionable, its a straight up fable."
"The question before us is not whether the forms are impressive (even though I was not impressed)."
"One question
Can you fight? My experience in fighting You guys tells me the answer is no."
"Now as for your schools forms being martial then why is it a fellow classmate of mine goes up to the Shaolin do school here in town and beats up on their instructors. Now for all the effort you go into making it seem like Shaolin do trains for actual combat it amazes me how a whole school, larger than ours in members, cant deliver against one person."

"If you tired of smelling chicken and the flies are annoying, tell your Mom to pull up her pants."


"First of all I am respectful of other systems. What you took as an insult was simply my personal opinion given my personal experience with your system on topic that was about SD. "
-I have NO idea why TWS decided to challenge him, he's been so respectful and polite...it's a shame, really.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

cho
08-18-2001, 01:40 AM
TWS, YOU made this challenge by emailing reemul's teacher. YOU are the one trying to save face and "honor" for your "crusade".K

reemul
08-18-2001, 02:27 AM
Why don't you pull your nose out of Willows ass and post some his posts.

reemul
08-18-2001, 02:29 AM
If JWT is still willing to host the event I say we go with his location. Fighting in Zilker will just get us arrested.

Losttrak
08-18-2001, 02:59 AM
Let me know if Austin doesnt work out. I know a few places up here that you guys could use. Just bear in mind this will be a challenge bout, not a deathmatch. I don't want anybody beating someone with a detached limb or anything. =p Lets leave that to clay-mation.

"If you and I agree all the time, then one of us is unnecessary."

Radhnoti
08-18-2001, 03:04 AM
TWS doesn't claim he hasn't insulted you, just not your school. In fact, at one point he apologized for his personal insults. I'm only pointing out your most obvious untruths. Don't say silly or untrue things that can be contradicted by your own words.
Since the fight is on again, there's (again) really not much to say. Best of luck to both of you...especially to TWS, heh...and I hope something good comes of all this.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Royal Dragon
08-19-2001, 12:49 AM
Come on guys, a challenge match set for NOVEMBER???

If you want to test one anothers systems, you need to fight NOW!! Before either party can go train under professional coaches.
Personally, I think Willow sword would have to be the one to do that, but either party training differently for the next few months negates the results of the challeng. If you want to truly test eachothers training, you need to fight NOW wile your systems are un corrupted. With a date SO FAR in the future, BOTH partys will be altering thier training methods for this fight(It's only natural), and neither will be accurate representations of thier school. If you fight now, you are fighting AS YOU WERE TRAINED by your respective Sifus.

If you guys aren't willing to fight now then your just scared, incompetent or insecure of your abilitys. That alone settles the argument for me.

Shaolin Do is a Sham. IT IS NOT Shaolin Kung fu and never will be.

I too get ****ed by all theses "Kidd'ie" schools prostituting the Shaolin name for comercial gain. True Shaolin training is a cut above the rest, and should be KNOWN for that. But, instead you have all these "imitators" trying to pass them selves off as the real thing, and consequently Shaolin is seen as "Flowery dance" and laughed at by those that have NEVER seen any thing more than "imitators" like Shaolin Do.

My system was taught at Shaolin, and "I" don't even promote the system as Shaolin, and I can legitimately do it. So why do "Kempo" schools claim to be Shaolin? and why do "bad" Japanese Karate schools like Shaolin Do "act" as if they were Shaolin???

If they are so good, why do they need to mislead every one to make thier buisness prosper?

I hate to say this, because of thier attitude towards us, but you'll never see a BJJ school saying they teach Shaolin, and then actually teach BJJ. Why, because they are GOOD at what they do. Only low skilled charlatans need to mislead people, and I think that after every thing I have seen, read and heard from Many, Many sources (including comparing "thier" Mantis form off thier web site to th real thing), that Shaolin Do IS a charlaten school.

Willow sword, you NEED to find a REAL Sifu. Once you get involved with the real thing, you'll look at SD like it is nothing more than a Saturday morning cartoon in comparisen to real life.

I Hate Frauds!!!!

Royal Dragon


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

Radhnoti
08-19-2001, 02:19 AM
November is when TWS is going to be where reemul lives. Had you protested earlier I might take your point more seriously, but shouting it now just sounds like you're setting up for a reemul loss.
"Oh, SURE he went and got a coach, no wonder he won!"
The November date has been set in stone from the beginning.
Unless that was all an attempt to troll for response, in which case...I guess I lose. Hope no one else falls for it. :rolleyes:

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

reemul
08-19-2001, 03:11 AM
Our school trains in a cyclical manner and boxing season has just started. If TWS wants to wait till Nov. I don't care, our school will be at the apex of boxing season. I'm comfortable whenever.

The Willow Sword
08-19-2001, 03:33 AM
HO Hum Ho Hum. YAWWWNNN!!!! :rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Fu-Pow
08-19-2001, 07:51 PM
I think Royal Dragon's response is valid. It did not violate martial virtue because he is not insulting you personally he trying to get you to see something in a new light. Whatever you might think TWS, most people on this forum want you to quit Shaolin-do because they think it is a fraud, they don't think that you are a fraud. Always think for yourself, whatever system you do. Take a look a round. To dismiss something when you know nothing about it is the highest form of ignorance.

Peace and good luck

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Royal Dragon
08-19-2001, 08:19 PM
Some how the geoagrphy involved here slipped me. I thought the two were close enough to get together easier (Ooppss!!)


Check out the Royal Dragon Web site

http://www.Royaldragon.4dw.com

The Willow Sword
08-19-2001, 09:11 PM
SNNNNOOORRRRREEEE!!!! YAWWWNNN. SNOOOORREEE!!! :rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

BeiKongHui
08-19-2001, 10:35 PM
if he were he could start his research by, oh say, comparing his "short katas" which Sin The claims to be Tan Tui to Kung Fu styles such as Wah Lum (Hope I spelled that right Chan Poi's school)that have proven legitimate lineages and do Tan Tui as well.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

cho
08-19-2001, 11:43 PM
"TWS is not interested in the truth "

Some people like walking in circles,
some like to know where they're going.

Just look at the past threads, I know, they're long. TWS hasn't disproved anything about the "Shaolin" Tai Chi in his school.

Silumkid
08-19-2001, 11:56 PM
I have been reading this string for a while now and I must say, it's pretty funny!

I think it is safe to say as well that there is no longer any point to trying to put blame on anyone...if this match is really going to happen, placing blame at this point is useless. Rad's postings of insults (without equal posting of their own) is just silly.

By the way, out of curiousity, what do either of you think this is going to prove? My personal feelings notwithstanding, is this another "my style is better than yours"? Seriously, no matter which one of you wins, I think we are all just going to laugh at the whole thing. UFC never made me switch styles, and I'm sure this won't either no matter which one of you wins.

Don't get me wrong, if this is more of a personal thing then go for it. I never claimed anything was wrong with fighting, I just wonder what the honest intentions are?

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

cho
08-20-2001, 12:32 AM
"out of curiousity, what do either of you think this is going to prove?"

Willow Sword is fighing this "crusade" for his "honor".

Silumkid
08-20-2001, 12:42 AM
Cho,

Is this related to the "face vs. honor" question someone asked that was replied to somewhat rudely? :D

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

cho
08-20-2001, 01:08 AM
I believe so.

TWS was giving some of his Zen wisdom gained from Shaolin gongfu practice.

Radhnoti
08-20-2001, 01:51 AM
Reemul insulted TWS' style, saying it was without merit...including personal tales of "shamelessly" beating fellow SD students. TWS, in my opinion rightly, felt insulted and decided to show reemul that he was mistaken.
It seems pretty straightforward to me. I only posted reemul's own words to show obvious mistruths...and probably out of spite, he did insult the style I've chosen as well. Silumkid, I never claimed to be an impartial observer. I don't think TWS is expecting anything REALLY to change after this bout...with the possible exception of reemul's mouth shutting when it comes to SD.
To be fair, Cho, no one has disproven SD's version of Tai Chi either. I invite you to go to the internal boards where TWS posted quite often...either everyone over there is WAY more polite than those on the shaolin forum, or he knows a bit about internal martial arts. Or...don't, make assumptions based on heresay and join the SD bashing bandwagon. That's certainly the easier course.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Silumkid
08-20-2001, 02:06 AM
Now, now, Rad, don't jump on me because I asked a few questions which may deflate an ego or three.

First, I never accused you of being an impartial observer...as I said, I read quite a bit of this. I know exactly where you stand from your posts. All I did say was that it was useless to repeat things that he has said in the past, it lends nothing to the present.

Also, if I wanted to flame Shaolin-Do, I would have. I visited a school here locally once, decided it wasn't for me and that was that. I also know nothing about reemul's school or teacher, nor do I really care to, just as I am sure many could care less about mine.

My point is this: It is very easy for folks to puff up their chests and in classic Shaw Brothers form say "Your school insulted my school. We fight!" The hard part is honestly looking at why these 2 feel the need to fight over a difference of opinion. Again, I am not saying they should or shouldn't just as I would not want anyone to tell me what to do in my life. I do think, though, that we can all learn something from this.

And honestly, do you really believe either person will be "shut up" if they lose? It's a one time encounter...if we were talking about a series of meetings where one person clearly dominated the other every time, it would be a different story but again, proves nothing about "style".

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Radhnoti
08-20-2001, 03:14 AM
Silumkid, sorry if it seemed I "jumped on you". I do tend to post in "defensive" mode, but no offense was meant. I respectfully disagree about the relevance of reposting old info. New forum members pop up all the time, and most don't review the old stuff as you say you have. So, reemul saying that's he's done nothing to provoke TWS and that he's never spoke poorly of SD might be believed by a newcomer.
Frankly, I don't think reemul can win. And I'm not speaking only of the physical. He and others like him have talked SD down so completely that some imagine an SD student is more inept than someone that's never had any sort of training. TWS beating him will, of course, give a SD supporter (such as myself) a point to bring up when he decides to attack.
Example:
Reemul - "SD is NOT a practical art of self defense. I know this to be fact."
Me - "It was good enough to beat you back in November. How has the quality decreased since?"

The REAL attacks will come from others who once wished reemul the best. If he was beaten by a SD guy, he must not be studying a "REAL CMA" guy. A perfect correlation to this can be seen on the main KFO boards when Shaolin_Tiger00 fought Rolls/Ralek. He won, but his lack of dominance led to MANY personal attacks by those who'd previously been his stronger supporters.
He might try coming back as a different user, but it's surprising how quickly and often stuff like that is revealed around here. I'm sure reemul is a fine fighter/artist, don't get me wrong, but to REALLY win he'd have to be considerably more skilled than TWS AND he'd have to SHOW it that day. It's all just a matter of perception. And, in my opinion, TWS challenging reemul can't decrease the kung-fu community's perception of SD...it can only be improved. It's sort of a nowhere to go but up situation. Again, this is all just my opinion. Life rarely works out as I imagine or expect, really, the only thing to do is wait for November and then the fallout from the fight.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Silumkid
08-20-2001, 03:30 AM
Rad, no worries...it takes a lot to offend me and you were nowhere near that. It's all good. :)

I must admit I did not consider the "new forum members" when I commented, but on the same vein I would contend that a person who jumps on your guys case without knowing the background deserves nothing less than to be ignored. Of course, not speaking from your position, it's probably difficult at best to ignore constant attacks from bandwagoneers.

True, life rarely works out how we plan...but isn't that what makes it fun? :D

In any case, I wish both fighters well. Do what you can not to get arrested and also be wary of "tough guy" spectators who may think you are screwing around and try to get in on it.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

joedoe
08-20-2001, 03:35 AM
This dicussion is pointless for two reasons:

1) No matter what happens in Nov. the SD detractors will still think SD sucks, and the SD supporters will still think it is wonderful.

2) There is no point in carrying on like this. Wait and see what happens in Nov. then we can do the post-fight analysis.

My personal view is that if you enjoy doing SD and it works for you, then fine. If someone doesn't think it is authentic Shaloin and that the school's name is fraudulent, then that is their opinion and they are entitled to it. Why get all worked up over it?

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

Radhnoti
08-20-2001, 04:19 AM
Silumkid, you'd be surprised how many SD members peruse these boards. I've received plenty of e-mails from SD folks ignoring the bad and taking in the good. They're the smart ones. Nice to have you on the forum, by the way.
ABandit.
Point 1, I agree. The only persons who might change their viewpoint is the loser of the challenge.
Point 2, amen.

I agree that everyone is entitled to an opinion. My concern has always been that the nay sayers are the primary influence for most people's opinion of SD. I just try to offer my perspective to balance the negative in my small corner of the universe. After all, SD has changed my life for the better...how terrible it would be if someone passed up the opportunity to learn a CMA. And all because they read bad things about it on an internet message board. :(
I hope that anyone reading this right now goes and checks out ALL the martial arts available to them and picks what they like best. That's what I did.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

The Willow Sword
08-20-2001, 04:25 AM
All of these people who are coming on to this thread seem to be like all the others who create a "let's bash SD" thread. I wonder why it is that we constantly disresepct martial systems be they shaolin hybrids or schools that have Rare shaolin roots or other schools claiming shaolin lineage?
So far Reemul along with others here put down a school that has been here in this country since the late 60's. this is an old school in comparison to others that have started much later in this country. I know that it is difficult for some of you to comprehend the fact that there might be a school out there with a unique lineage to the temple. You constantly try to "compare" what you do to what i do and then you make a judgement based on wild conjecture and bullSh!t.
the bashing constantly has to do with the history of the school and the Man who started the school here in this country to begin with. But as of yet the solid hard proof is not there to substantiate any body's claims against the Shaolin-Do school. All i have been reading is the personal bickerings of students who have been there before and left due to some "awakening" or "realization" that the school was not for them or that they found out the "truth" from another school or instructor that SD is a fake and not legitamate CMA. All of you SD bashers seem to have this grandious view of what CMA is becuase either you watch toooo many movies or you look at the outward appearence of a Cma school and say"now thats CMA". you believe what your asian instructors tell you and you believe thier diatribe against Sd for they have some personal vendetta for they are not familiar with our history for THEY are the authorities on Chinese history, culture and martial arts? You guys are the best when it comes to mouth boxing in this forum. I on the other hand have answered the insults and bickering of one of you with a challenge. I have stuck to it letting everyone know who i am and what i do and how long i have been doing it. it took alot of chiding at reemul to finally let us know where he trains on this forum. i imagine that his Teacher boosted his ego on this matter probably saying that" this guy will be no problem for you,,he does kiddy karate charaltan CMA". I know that all of you who hate us and our school are trying to throw in a monkey wrench in the ideology here with regards to this challenge,,,,and i know that you all think that this will not change anything about what YOU all think about SD. What this Will change for you all is that there is a SD person willing to step up and answer to the insults being thrown out,,FOR THERE IS NOT ONE OF YOU NOT ONE, WHO HAS THE BALLS ,COURAGE OR INTEGRITY TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF ANY OF OUR FACES AND TALK YOUR SH!T. Instead you do it here where you are safe behind your computer talking trash and feeling good about yourself,,but i tell you ,,one of these days there is going to be a life humbling experience for you for you will talk your sh!t in front of the wrong person and get a beating that you never even thought was possible(now dont take this as a challenge from me ) this is a principle in the martail arts relm that states what comes around goes around. its funny though that the SD school has not had any of these "what comes around goes around experiences" if we were a fraudulant school or a CHarlatan school the karma would naturally have to work against us...but as you can see folks we have schools in a lot of places with alot of students,,and we prosper, and our successful and we do produce some good fighters and martial artists,,and guess what?.....ITS A SHAOLIN SCHOOL. not your shaolin school and certainly not the shaolin temple of today's shaolin school(communist wushu).now i know some of you have sparred Sd people before and "beaten" them, so you say.
The degree and level at which a student excells depends on thier resolve and dedication to what they are practicing in. whether they be a black belt or no that fact a stated above remains.
So now you are going to see, should any of you wish to witness, a SD disciple who is dedicated to his school and the art of SHaolin and who has been a martial artist for over 15 yrs and a teacher for 4 yrs and is not cowardly as so much as to be vague about WHO HE IS,,ANND WHO IS MAN ENOUGH TO STAND IN FRONT OF YOU AND SAY THAT "YOU ARE FULL OF SH1T WITH YOUR TRASH TALK AND INSULTS,REEMUL. NOW PLEASE, IF YOU WILL , take a rest from the SD bashing on this thread. i have stated what i need to state in this matter and NOW IM GOING TO REST,,,and let you all continue with all of YOUR nonsense.
Many Respects,,,,Willow Sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Silumkid
08-20-2001, 05:08 AM
Rad, thanks for your welcome. I appreciate it.

I agree that anyone who chooses a martial art based on what they read off a website is simply foolish. However, one thing the internet has managed to do is bring us all together, for good or bad. It's all perception. Unfortunately, there are never any easy answers either.

Willow, I kind of figured this might happen, but oh well....it seems you think that I started posting here to insult Shaolin-Do because I said it "wasn't for me". Somehow, it seems you find this offensive, yet, is that not what you did when you chose SD over others?

I hope I didn't set you off, but it seems to me that instead of wasting your energy making mass generalizations about what people here do and do not have the courage to do, it would be better spent either finding productive conversations here. You seem awfully defensive and I understand that this challenge thing may have you "ready to go" but in future I would appreciate it if you do not include me in mass generalizations. I have fought many a time, and for things that are happening in my world, I may have to do it again soon. It's not something I'm proud of...but sometimes you gotta do what ya gotta do.

Relax dude, it's only the internet.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

MonkeySlap Too
08-20-2001, 05:27 AM
I don't think anyone has read this book yet. I really, really think that this is a good idea.

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

joedoe
08-20-2001, 06:16 AM
"FOR THERE IS NOT ONE OF YOU NOT ONE, WHO HAS THE BALLS ,COURAGE OR INTEGRITY TO STAND UP IN FRONT OF ANY OF OUR FACES AND TALK YOUR SH!T"

I think that's a little unfair. Some people aren't in the good ole US of A :D

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

reemul
08-20-2001, 01:36 PM
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BeiKongHui
08-20-2001, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>To be fair, Cho, no one has disproven SD's version of Tai Chi either [/quote]

In 1956, the Physical Culture and Sports Commission of the People's Republic of China called together a group of nationally renowned martial artists to study ways to further popularize taijiquan among the people. As a result, a simplified set of exercise with 24 forms was created by removing the over- elaborate or repetitive movements from the old forms. Consequently, a fresh impetus was given to the spread of taijiquan throughout the country. Within a few years millions of copies of books and hanging charts introducing simplified taijiquan were published and circulated. During the '70s, over two hundred centers teaching the new set of taijiquan exercise were set up in Beijing alone. Subsequently, 24-Form Taijiquan was translated into Japanese, English, French and other foreign languages as it found its way to Japan, the United States, Canada, Britain, France, Sweden, Singapore, Malaysia and many other countries.

I've seen the SD form and it is the above.

Rad you can find the truth if you really want to. We can give you proof that the sky is blue only by pointing at the sky and saying "It's blue!" but if one refuses to open his eyes and see then he'll never see it for himself.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Radhnoti
08-20-2001, 04:06 PM
I still intend to order the video, but I need a point of comparison. Someone gave a website in an earlier thread, but I have terrible luck with online video.
Also, I'm not sure what an exact match would prove anymore. Have you seen GM Sin claim that the 24 form is ancient? If so, I'd appreciate it if you'd reference that statement for me. SD has several Tai Chi forms, and we know that GM Ie changed several things back in the 40s or 50s. He could have easily added the the new Tai Chi form with an eye toward competing and/or modernization. This may sound like a cop out...since this was something I had worried about myself, but I realized the only people I'd heard shouting that 24 form wasn't ancient and GM Sin claims to only teach ancient things was SD opponents. BKH, I thought you were going to send me a list of schools you'd suggest? Also, did you see my question to you about "Shorim Ryu" on the main board? I'd asked who was teaching it and who broke away...you know, just the political stuff, but also, do they teach the same thing? Please e-mail me or answer in this thread? Thanks.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Radhnoti
08-20-2001, 04:22 PM
Whoops, just caught your reply but it was a bit vague. Is this a breakaway group? You've SEEN their material? Why wouldn't the club GM Sin founded have followed him over? Why'd they add Ryu to the name? Any info you could add is appreciated.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Fu-Pow
08-20-2001, 07:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Buddha Family Fist : 3 Months
A high level Internal system from the Choi Li Fut system, that allows for cultivation of the chi, and places a premium on balance, leg strength, flexibility, and fluidity.
Students will learn the form.
[/quote]

from the shaolincenter.com website.

Ah...I see SD is teaching Choy Lay Fut now as well. Coincidentally, my sifu's contemporary Liu Si Hung just came out with this form on video...
it is known as Fut Jeong Kuen or "Buddha Palm Fist"....hmmmmmmmmmmm......

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

NorthernMantis
08-20-2001, 09:17 PM
Man I hope they don't catch on to my Grandmasters video or I'll really get mad. :mad: :mad: :eek: :eek: :eek:

"Always be ready"

Radhnoti
08-20-2001, 09:58 PM
LOL
Fu-Pow puts more effort into SD than some practicioners! I didn't even know that there WAS a shaolincenter.com . :D

Um...NorthernMantis, GM Sin's website says he's doing a Mantis book right now. Just thought I'd prepare you...

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

BeiKongHui
08-20-2001, 10:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Um...NorthernMantis, GM Sin's website says he's doing a Mantis book right now. Just thought I'd prepare you... [/quote]

Is that coming out BEFORE or AFTER the movie they've been making about him since the 70's? ;)

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

illusionfist
08-21-2001, 12:30 AM
Well i saw the Buddhist Fist form when i met with TWS and i can DEFINITELY say that it is not CLF oriented at all. The Shaolin Do clan says its of Chen style tai chi influence. It's done with an internal flavor and aside from the technique "jin gang dao dui' (often mistranslated as buddha grinds the mortar), there is no other chen influence.

Since i have now seen two versions of this form, i can say that TWS plays it with the flavor for which it was intended. Then again he's a nei jia enthusiast, so this pollutes everything he does ;)

Peace :D

Fu-Pow
08-21-2001, 12:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Well i saw the Buddhist Fist form when i met with TWS and i can DEFINITELY say that it is not CLF oriented at all. [/quote]

I'm not making this up. I pulled that quote directly from the website.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Fish of Fury
08-21-2001, 07:22 AM
"ITS A SHAOLIN SCHOOL. not your shaolin school and certainly not the shaolin temple of today's shaolin school(communist wushu)." TWS

what is your (or shaolin do's ) opinion of other traditional shaolin arts/schools.
ie. i've seen other posters here claim that shaolin do considers all other traditional CMA/shaolin schools to be wushu or not as authentic as shaolin do, but i haven't seen a shaolin do guy make that claim directly.

so...what do you think of the authenticity of other styles as compared to SD?

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Radhnoti
08-21-2001, 04:29 PM
Shaolin-Do is a big style, with (some say) 150+ schools. I'd say there are 150+ opinions about other styles. MY instructor thinks that everything has something to add and that the main thing is just to LEARN no matter the source. However, I've met instructors high in the organization who've implied that they feel differently. I put it down to "professional pride" (just start a "Who's style is best" thread on the main forum and see what you get), but I guess it could be considered smug. Especially if you were coming from a different style.
So, to summarize, my instructor's opinion of other schools is high. But several high level SD black belts I've met have a low opinion of other styles.
Now, on to authenticity. By this I assume you mean, "the one most similar to that originally taught at the temple". Grandmaster Su was said to be at the temple. He passed our style on to Grandmaster Ie, who then passed it down to Grandmaster Sin. That's just three generations that SD is removed from the temple. Based on this short, direct lineage the SD student is told that what he is taught is the closest to "authentic" shaolin. Obviously, things have been added to the system. But, yes, I think high level SD students/teachers feel the core of our system (the forms) is THE shaolin system. I, personally, don't really care how authentic or un-authentic it is...as long as it works. I don't think I've heard ANYONE is SD claim that EVERYTHING else is wushu. In fact, an article carried by KFQ told of an older monk at the shaolin temple standing up during a demo and doing a "traditional", not wushu, form which received a standing ovation from the SD students.
Hope this helps. It's kind of difficult to quantify the attitude of numerous people, but I painted as clear a picture as I could...

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

The Willow Sword
08-21-2001, 04:47 PM
I cannot speak for those in my organization who feel that Sd is the original shaolin art. that is a Naive statement and makes them look foolish. you are going to find in our school as well as other schools blind followers and you are going to find dedicated practitioners. i do not question the authenticity of other styles,,even shaolin styles. I KNOW that SD is not the only true martial art out there. What seems to nick everyones testicles in this matter is that alot of SD'ers claim that what they do IS THE TRUE ORIGINAL SHAOLIN ART.i will sy that i think that what we do is closer to the original and TRUE principles of what shaolin was originally about. You know with my studies in history and my years as a martial artist i look at what the content of a system is,, and then i cross reference that to what i know to be true about the origins of the system ,,i then make a decision based on this and i come up with my conclusion,,,,simple right? i have said this time and time again that our origins are from Shaolin. (a fighting system) not a dance or performance oriented system(communist wushu). everyone judges the SD school by what they have tseen or taken and they say now that does not look like what i do,i take shaolin and this school does not have the same principles,,,,well kids how many shaolin styles are out there? lots,,and as we have seen with the history of shaolin it is not one unique art or system,,it is a collaboration of many different systems,,,,your shaolin is not going to be the same as my shaolin for obvious reasons,,being the teacher the lineage and the style,and most of all how you intepret the system. i dont go around and say well that school is a fake or a fraud,,and when i compare styles or systems i look for the fighting principles contained with in,,,i have 15 yrs experience so i know what to look for,,,so far what i have seen of most of the northern systems and some south,,is that it is a performance and a dance which is what modern wushu is now,,you try to do any of that stiff in a real fight and you are gonna get plastered on the pavement,,,,these arts are FIGHTING ARTS,,Not fantasy video game or crouching tiger hidden dragon movie martial arts.
i come from a southern CMA background,,where fighting systems prevail,,,our school has roots at fukien temple... ill tell you this A true shaolin monk back in the day did not do a little mantis dance or monkey flip when his life was threatened by a brigand or a robber,,,think of how the dynamics of a fight unfolds itself. a fighting system comprises itself with the principles of clear DIRECT and simple techniques to get the job done,,the rest is just cardio aerobics. be patient kids,,november is not that far off :cool:
Many Respects,Willow sword

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

[This message was edited by The Willow Sword on 08-22-01 at 08:01 AM.]

BeiKongHui
08-21-2001, 05:36 PM
You know what though? Nobody's Shaolin looks like karate but yours now why is that? A unique interpretation of all those principals you think you know so much about? :rolleyes:

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Radhnoti
08-21-2001, 05:50 PM
Hmmm...the boards seem to be messing up for me. When I reposted my response I saw a response from TWS and BKH just after mine, so I deleted my second answer. Now I just see Fish's query again.
Hope the boards straighten up...

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Fu-Pow
08-21-2001, 07:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you operate a school affiliated with Grandmaster Sin Thé, and your school is not listed here, or you have information to add or correct, then please contact Herman Collins. Thanks!

The SDA has organized the country into 14 areas. Although these areas are designated by number, six are named after the original Shaolin temples: Honan, WuTang, Omei San, Kwang Tung, Fukien and Hua Mountain; the seventh will be named in honor of Grandmaster Sin Kwang The's birth place, Bandung.Each region has an Area Vice President appointed by the President.

Not all of the schools listed here are SDA affiliated; the ones that are have been marked with the "SDA hand".

[/quote]

You will be assimilated.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Silumkid
08-21-2001, 10:34 PM
Just something to add re: the outward appearance of forms. I'll pick on Willow Sword a little bit here since he was very clear on his opinion.

Many times, what a lot of people fail to realize is that forms are simply another training exercise. Willow, you did mention "knowing what to look for" in other forms and then said you have seen others that resemble dances. One form I will use to argue that point is Tan Tui. From outward appearance, Tan Tui can indeed look like a "showy, non-useful" form. What many do not realize is that Tan Tui is a form that trains the basics...stances, stance transitions, stretch kicks, hand combinations. If you were to perform the form as is in a fight, you would probably lose. But the techniques were made that way in the form to train your attributes and are easily adaptable to "real" combat. In fact, Tan Tui is, from what I have heard, an entire martial system unto itself according to the Muslims who created it.

Judge not a book by it's cover, but rather it's contents.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

joedoe
08-22-2001, 05:16 AM
When you say that SD is closer to Shaolin, closer than what?

I don't know about other arts, but I have found that in the art I study the application of the form is not obvious. What may look like a useless movement may actually be a very applicable fighting technique once you know how to unlock the form. I don't know how people can judge a style's effectiveness simply from its forms.

cxxx[]:::::::::::>
What we do in life echoes in Eternity

The Willow Sword
08-22-2001, 05:32 AM
BKH: :rolleyes:

Silum Kid: i know about the tan tui steps and you are right they are the BASICS of the stances kicks, stretches,hand combinations etc. And i know about all that showey stuff that "looks"like it is not useful. weve all heard the "story" the shaolin masters would hide the "REAL techniques within the form in order to protect the "REAL"techniques from being stolen from spies and hidden onlookers. you know i think that is a bunch of BS. why do movements that have no purpose in fighting whatso ever? you just proved my point about watching dance and performance wushu. and since i know how to spot the hidden techniques in forms that i have seen. there is a lot of brain transitioning to defilter what you have been taught and then get the "real" technique that the master did not show you. which is crap to me for it is useless to do routines that go nowhere and movements that have no purpose to them but to only entertain and look good to the eye....you know hsingi doesnt look good to watch at all,,in fact its boring,, but you get to see the direct fighting maneuvers and techniques. In a COMBAT FORM,,you are learning the combat applications for you are doing the form as a COMBAT technique,,not a prancy dance. you know how many people out there do dancey forms and think that it helps them in a fight and you see them get floored,,i have all too many times.....the true way that the fighting arts of shaolin present themselves is that of a SURVIVAL and COMBAT ORIENTED FORM. which YES it looks more like a karate form than a dancey prancey performance form....maybe that is why what you guys ,especially BKH,,sees is what you believe to be karate when in fact what tyou are seeing are COMBAT FORMS with the principles of FIGHTING in them,,,they dont look as pretty as your form but we are not interested in looks, robes ,,shaved heads,,grandious halls of incense and mantras,,whereas some of us retain zen buddhist and taoist philosophies,,we are still there to learn how to PROTECT OURSELVES and preserve an ANCIENT SYSTEM that has been tainted by communist
tyranny and made to be an amusement for grandious fantasy based individuals.....and you know,,even if our system was a karate system which it is not,,,i would rather have that than be subjected to flowery,,prancy dancey routines that look good on the movie screen and make the communists more money and that do you no good in real self defense and fighting.
when i saw illusionfist do his hung gar you know what i saw???? a FIGHTING FORM AND a FIGHTING SYSTEM<<< i wonder what REEMUL is going to show when he shows up. hopefully not a rare form of communist wushu that they threw out due to its ineffectiveness to impress the eye. rare northern shaolin kitty kat. hmm i wonder,,,is this form from the northern part of the eastern most corner of the west half of south china?????? :eek:

Many respects,,Willow sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

reemul
08-22-2001, 07:44 AM
Actually our System left China during the PRC takeover. You would have caught that if you were paying attention. At that time the PRC was trying to destroy the Shaolin systems not preserve them or create a tourist trap capitalizing off the name.(<-read slowly maybe you will comprehend what was said). Any demo I do will be after the fight.

On the subject of Contemporary Wushu, It is no secrete that contemporary Wushu is filled with unpractical maneuvers and acrobatics, but to say they are incapable of fighting is ignorant. Specifically Wuhsu athletes in China are in extreme physical condition and on average could put an ass whoopin on most SD students.

Classical Shaolin kungfu does not look anything like karate. In order to be a good fighter you must posses balance, coordination, flexibility, an understanding of body mechanics, combative application and the ability to improve technique. Shaolin forms consist of all these attributes, and some are simply symbolic.

As for what to expect from me, you claim you know what it is that I do. However if you had spent anytime at our school I would know it, our school is not that big, So it is clear to me that you don't know about our school.

My teacher also asked me to establish that there will be no judges at our meeting, "We are judged only by our peers, those that workout with us..".
also the match is to consist of 2 min rounds or one continuous round of full contact until someone is unable to continue or refuses to continue, as was done in the old day.

BeiKongHui
08-22-2001, 02:21 PM
Note how the SD cultist can find a way to justify anything.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Radhnoti
08-22-2001, 04:45 PM
Note how people that don't like what an SD practicioner has to say refers to them as a "cultist".

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Fish of Fury
08-22-2001, 04:55 PM
thanks for the replies.
as i've said before, all i know about SD is what i read on these boards, so i'm not going to judge it.
i'm content that the style i practise now is excellent, and i hope everyone else is equally satisfied with what they do.
i personally spent several years in a dodgy taichi school, but i don't think that makes me a bad person, and i still got some benefit out of my time there...so even IF (i'm not assuming) SD leaves something to be desired, it doesn't mean you can't progress.

from your replies you both seem to be dedicated martial artists, so if you enjoy SD, good luck to you.

__________________________________________________ _________________________ "I'm just trying to lull you into a genuine sense of security!"

Radhnoti
08-22-2001, 04:57 PM
Thanks Fish.

"That government is best which governs least." -- HENRY DAVID THOREAU

Shaolindynasty
08-22-2001, 04:58 PM
note: For all you who don't like shaolin do and keep posting on it, you have succeeded in making it an extremely popular system. Just shut all this up your "fight" isn't for like two months right? So can we have at least one week where this crap isn't at the top? All this arguing isn't going to change anything and the fight isn't going to change anything give it up guys.
(**** I just bumped this to the top, Doh)

New classes New online Catalog
www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net (http://www.shaolindynasty.cjb.net)

BeiKongHui
08-22-2001, 05:41 PM
I have no problem with all the attention SD gets because of this thread. Expose the Golden Cockroaches to the light long enough and they'll eventually scurry away. If this thread has stopped one person from wasting their time then it was worth it wasn't it?

Rad- I refer to you guys as cultists because like anyone who has based their existance on faith alone you all refuse to answer direct questions or accept evidence that might shatter what you believe is truth. SD people like to talk a good game but when you get right down to it none of you cares about the truth if you did you could find it quite easily. All anyone with an iota of common sense, knowledge of MA's and/or Chinese history has to do is read the hilarous book Sin The' put out. The lies and misinformation is so easy to spot I wonder how anyone that reads it could ever take it seriously. Also, being unfortunate enough to live in the place the whole SD mess came from, I have seen and heard time and time again the sad stories of former SD students. It's a pattern, one which TWS seems to be falling into: 1)Denial of problem 2)Anger (usually accompanied by a challenge or some such BS) 3)Realization 4)Disillusionment 5)Either drops out of MA completely or realizes the need to start all over.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Radhnoti
08-22-2001, 06:29 PM
BKH, I've done my best to answer every question anyone's put up about SD. I've not accepted anything on faith, I've just not accepted everything YOU say on faith and that's what seems to aggrevate you. I've lived in KY my whole life too and I know lots of old time GM Sin students, all of whom (that I've met) enjoyed SD and respect GM Sin.
Golden Cockroaches exposed to the light? That was pretty clever, point to you. :)
I have noticed a pattern, one you seem to be falling into: 1) Hear about SD. 2) Learn about SD, think it's all lies. 3) Post all you can about how it's all lies. 4) Lose interest in fighting with SD students. 5) Decide you were wrong and become SD's greatest ally, singing the praises of GM Sin to all who'll listen.
Um...ok, so maybe it's not exactly a PATTERN...but it's as relevant and possible as BKH's "pattern".
:D

BeiKongHui
08-22-2001, 07:25 PM
Rad-

Look around carefully.........
Do you see a small midget in a white suit calling out "the plane! the plane!"?

You must because you seem to be marooned on Fantasy Island.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Um...ok, so maybe it's not exactly a PATTERN...but it's as relevant and possible as BKH's "pattern". [/quote]

The only difference being that mine is based in reality where as yours is more of the "I know you are but what am I..." type arguments you seem to use.


I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Fu-Pow
08-22-2001, 07:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>. In a COMBAT FORM,,you are learning the combat applications for you are doing the form as a COMBAT technique,,not a prancy dance. you know how many people out there do dancey forms and think that it helps them in a fight and you see them get floored,,i have all too many times.....the true way that the fighting arts of shaolin present themselves is that of a SURVIVAL and COMBAT ORIENTED FORM. which YES it looks more like a karate form than a dancey prancey performance form....maybe that is why what you guys ,especially BKH,,sees is what you believe to be karate when in fact what tyou are seeing are COMBAT FORMS with the principles of FIGHTING in them, [/quote]


In truth there are many CMA techniques who's application is not obvious and you must understand the subtleties of the movement before you can apply them. Karate and Hung Gar are two styles that intitially rely on muscular power. There application is more obvious than say something like Taiji which relies very little on muscular power. Simply because you can "see" the power generation. However, at the higher levels of development most "hard" arts become soft and evasive. And most "soft" arts show there external power. As Dr. Yang Jwing Ming stated in his article on Cyberkwoon : Hard arts are like a staff, Softhard arts are like rattan and soft arts are like a whip. The point is that there is no geniune art which is hard and inflexible.

To me a lot of the Shaolin-do techniques look like they are on the "Staff" end of the spectrum. Even a bit stiffer. This is more indicative of Japanese styles than Chinese styles which usually lie on the "Soft Hard" to "Soft" end of the spectrum. This makes me think that Shaolin-Do has little to do with CMA and a lot to do with JMA.

Peace

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

BeiKongHui
08-22-2001, 07:41 PM
Combat forms, huh? You just keep telling yourself that. Of course it makes you look like a total dolt to any CMA practioners who read what you have to say but that's your right.

I have learned silence from the talkative, toleration from the intolerant, and kindness from the unkind; yet, strange, I am ungrateful to these teachers.
--Khalil Gibran

Silumkid
08-22-2001, 08:36 PM
Hi Willow Sword (is that from Fearless Hyena by the way? Great movie!),

Glad we are in agreement somewhat, but I disagree about the movements of forms being "BS"...most schools that do forms that I know of claim the same thing. There is a saying that goes "Every movement has 1,000 uses". In my opinion, this is the first key to true mastery. If you can take one movement and think of even 10 ways to apply it, then you are on the right path. I don't think it is brain transitioning, it is creativity training. And in "live" combat, your ability to adapt can be the difference between a win and a loss.

There is another saying that goes "The basics are the top, the top are the basics". This is another example of correct forms training. If your basics aren't solid, then all the jump spin kicks and neat technique names won't do one any good. To say the practice of Tan Tui is "dancy, useless stuff" is odd to me....it's like saying "I won't do push-ups and pull-ups or weight training because those movements aren't combat related". Your weakest attribute is what often leads to defeat.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

illusionfist
08-22-2001, 11:26 PM
I personally know tan tui, and i can honestly say that its not useless. Its a friggin kicking science, hehe :)

Peace :D

The Willow Sword
08-23-2001, 03:25 AM
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA yes it is in fact..... i didnt really conciously think about that movie when gave myself the name but i do have that movie in my collection,,,,,i now remember the scene where the willow sword challenges jacky" i am the willow sword" jacky;" what? the sh1t sword?"
willow sword"arrrghhhhh" and the fight begins.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
well i m afar from the character in that movie but i can laugh at myself in this instance,,,,,,check out another one of jackys greatest:" Snake and Crane arts of Shaolin" i have the platinum remastered version which elaborates on the fight at the end. scenes were put back in. any way YOU GOT ME heheheheheh.
Many respects to you Silumkid.
The sh... Willow Sword. :p

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Radhnoti
08-23-2001, 04:37 AM
BKH, I gave my real life experience as you say you gave yours. I guess we're giving what a scientist might call "anecdotal evidece", and obviously my anecdotes are on the opposite end of the spectrum from yours. Sorry if you were upset by my lighthearted poke at your "sad pattern". Me and Hervé Villechaize thought it was at least a little funny, but he laughs about everything these days.
Fu Pow, I read that article...I assumed Dr. Yang Jwing Ming was only talking about CMA's...and that in his estimation it's alright for a CMA to be "hard as a staff". Note that a staff does bend a bit...and that SD doesn't just consist of hard, straight mostly unflexable motions, but even if it did MY understanding of what he was saying was that there are CMA's like that.
You said, "The point is that there is no geniune art which is hard and inflexible."
So, I suppose I'll disagree with you on that. I may have misread him or you, so please correct me if I'm wrong.

Silumkid
08-23-2001, 07:35 AM
Willow,

Very good! I dig that movie....the training scenes are awesome!

I do have Snake and Crane....another great one! In fact, my Hong Kong DVD collection is what one might call close to outrageous. I had to get rid of a few because my rack can no longer contain them all! I have all of Jet's movies (so far)...the only one I can't find on DVD is Dragon Fight. So if anybody knows where I can find that, shoot me a line! Please?

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Fu-Pow
08-23-2001, 07:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and that in his estimation it's alright for a CMA to be "hard as a staff". [/quote]

I guess the staff I'm thinking of is flexible. I assume the one Dr.Yang is referring to is flexible also because he does CMA. Not the oak Bo staffs used by Karateka.


Let me put in context for you. We have 70 some odd years on this planet. The first 35 of them we have abundant muscular strength. We can tone and shape our muscles to do amazing things. We can make them extremely fast and explosive. For the last 35 our muscle strength deteriorates now matter how hard we train.

Therefore, as far as CMA's go, it is practical to teach younger students techniques which utilize their own musculature to their advantage (this is a bit oversimplified but stay with me)

However, this doesn't work once the practitioner is past a certain age. Therefore, the older practitioner must rely on technique and other non-muscular ways of power generation and speed. Hence, Neijia ie Taiji, Bagua, Hsing-Yi. Neijia is essentially a shortcut to these non-muscular techniques.

Now it is not that other arts don't contain these internal aspects, only that they are not emphasized from day one. In fact, I would venture to say that the ****her you get from the root of CMA the less they are emphasized from day one. So for example, although Choy Lay Fut is not Taiji we rely less on muscular effort than an art like Tae Kwon Do or Karate (aikido excluded of course). At the higher levels of our art we have the Crane Form (Hok Ying Kuen). This form relies very little on muscular effort and more on balance, technique and precision. Once you learn Hok Ying then you can go back thru your forms and "internalize" the rest of your forms, even the ones that intially relied on muscle. (BTW, before I get flamed, Hok Ying is not internal in the same sense that an art like Taiji is, it is simply another way to deal with deteriorating muscle. Also, Hok Ying is even less "internal" than some higher level forms like Sup Ying which I don't know that much about. )

In my opinion Shaolin-Do looks like it uses lots of muscular effort, even in its "internal" forms.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Radhnoti
08-23-2001, 07:51 PM
Fu-Pow, great post. I've yet to learn a real "internal" form, so (this time ;) ) I'll not argue a point I have no personal experience with. However, I'd ask this one question...are you basing your opinion on internet video? They had internet video of aikido's founder linked on the main forum the other day...and folks were attacking his form, etc. In my opinion, he'd have been far more impressive in person...and I suspect the same can be said of SD forms.

reemul
08-23-2001, 09:17 PM
People have seen SD in person and if anything its
less impressive.

Radhnoti
08-23-2001, 10:01 PM
I've met folks that've seen it and been impressed, myself included. I know BKH has seen it in person and is unimpressed, as are you. I won't be surprised if you are slightly more impressed come November...at least with it's combative value. I know that not everyone agrees with me, I hope that you have the wisdom to see that not everyone agrees with you either.

Fu-Pow
08-23-2001, 11:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> However, I'd ask this one question...are you basing your opinion on internet video? They had internet video of aikido's founder linked on the main forum the other day...and folks were attacking his form, etc. In my opinion, he'd have been far more impressive in person...and I suspect the same can be said of SD forms.
[/quote]

Yes, I'm basing my opinion on internet video. As for people attacking the aikido videos I'd say they don't know what they are talking about.

In reality I'm not really attacking Shaolin-Do's martial technique. Because in reality it is Karate. Karate has gotten a bad rap over the years by kung fu guys for various reasons. But the truth is, well done Karate is effective and at higher levels becomes more "internal" ie relies less on muscular strenght more on precision, technique and non-muscular modes of power generation. It can be like the "staff" in terms of the Dr. yang article.

But let's be honest here. The real core of Shaolin-Do technique is Kempo karate. There is nothing wrong with that, very effective. You can reach a high level of martial proficiency in this system. But Shaolin-Do makes outrageous claims about what it is teaching. I study a CMA but I would never make a claim that I was master of 40-50 of the 300 Chinese MAs out there. Yet Shaolin-Do people teach everything from Chen Taiji to Monkey Kung Fu. At most, a person is capable of mastering one, maybe two, styles of kung fu in a life time.
Sin The is probably really great at Kempo. Is he so insecure in his Karate ability that he has to concoct these wild stories? Just call it what it is there is no shame in that.........but the truth is he has created "Shaolin-Do" to make more money. Because that is what is popular now.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

cho
08-23-2001, 11:59 PM
I got past my parents' divorce. I'm sure all of you can get past your martial art being fake.

The Willow Sword
08-24-2001, 05:48 AM
thankyou for the info on your school. i also read the note attached. since i now know your name i will not reveal it to keep your annonymity.
sounds good and i accept the terms.
my challenge still stands but i must apologize to you for my anger and mouth boxing,,i will NOT confront you with anger or spite. i will confront you as an antagonist and a martial artist who wishes to prove to you that my system and school are not what you opinionate it to be.
with that in mind i will see you in november.
Many Respects, Willow Sword.

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
oh and,,,Jesus loves you, everyone else thinks you are an a$.

Radhnoti
08-24-2001, 09:03 PM
Nicely done TWS, and cho I'm sorry about your parents. It's a tough thing, nearly destroyed my cousin when he was 12 years old.
Fu-Pow, to be honest, I wouldn't care if GM Sin came out tomorrow and called SD kempo. You think he lies and have never met him. TWS thinks he's telling the truth and has had tea with him. BKH is certain he's lying...and has been there through a lot of the history. My instructor thinks he's telling the truth and has been there through a lot of the history. Your protestations I take far less seriously than BKH's. Why? You've (as far as I know) never seen a SD form, you've never met a SD instructor. I hope you can understand why I think your critique is silly. You can't judge forms via the internet...well, you can, but not fairly. GM Sin teaches a lot of forms, but people usually concentrate their efforts on one specific system. The Tigers. Tai Chi. Hsing-Yi (sp?). Crane and so on. No students of Sin The' that I've met have claimed mastery of every form.

HuangKaiVun
08-25-2001, 03:09 PM
The Willow Sword, what style does reemul practice?

I asked him in the other thread and he directed me here, but I didn't see anything other than the fact that he studies "Shaolin".

reemul
08-25-2001, 11:06 PM
:)

HuangKaiVun
08-26-2001, 04:43 PM
Thanks, reemul.

Is it related to the style featured in the book that's out in bookstores?

Fu-Pow
08-26-2001, 06:58 PM
In your last post you imply that I am somehow unqualified to post on this thread. Sorry, I didn't know there were prerequisites. What style do you do again?

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Radhnoti
08-26-2001, 07:15 PM
Shaolin-Do. Gee, thought you knew that.
I stated my opinion that anyone judging a style via realplayer is silly. Is that what you're doing? Or have you actually seen an SD practicioner go through a form? :confused:

Fu-Pow
08-26-2001, 08:07 PM
So your saying that in order for me to make comments about Shaolin-Do I have to have seen the forms in person? Gheeesh...

Ok....first of all. Even if I wanted to see Shaolin-Do in person that would be impossible because there is no Shaolin-Do in my area (Pacific Northwest). Secondly, from what I understand Shaolin-Doers never compete in any tournaments with other schools, so I would never see it there.

My comments are based on the following things....

1) Internet Video Clips from Shaolin Center

2) The history, theory, curriculum of Shaolin-Do off the Shaolin-Do website

3) Other posters comments

So I've seen the clips, read the history, read the newsletters, etc.

I think I've seen enough to know that this stuff is ridiculous. Especially when the Chen Taiji form (which I practice) looks nothing like Taiji of any kind.

It seems you are trying to set some sort of prerequisite here in order for me to discuss this topic or discredit my opinion because I have never "experienced" Shaolin-Do. Ok fine...but I still think my comments are valid whether you think so or not. So you can either address my questions and opinions or you can continue to adress the validity of those opinions. Regardless, I will continue to post on Shaolin-Do because I think it is a fraudulent organization.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Radhnoti
08-26-2001, 09:55 PM
Look, Fu Pow, obviously it IS my intent to discredit you, as I disagree with you. Just as your intent is to discredit shaolin-do. Don't take it so personally. You're basing your entire opinion of SD on what you've been able to piece together via the internet, I'm just pointing that out.
Obviously, I intend to respond to your comments, informed in my opinion or no.
Like you were worried I was gonna quit posting...ha! ;)

MonkeySlap Too
08-26-2001, 10:20 PM
Just saw the old pictures of Sin The' on the Austin SD website.

Tell me that isn't Karate.

You see, THAT is what Fu Pow comes to and questions. Combative CMA does NOT look like Karate. Really.

Just stating my opinion - although no-one really cares....

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

Fu-Pow
08-26-2001, 11:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just as your intent is to discredit shaolin-do. [/quote]

My intent is to discredit Shaolin-Do as a SHAOLIN martial art. There may PEOPLE within the Shaolin-Do organization that are very good at karate and for all I know could kick my ass. Karate can be a very effective martial art depending on the practitioner. But my point is that I do a real Shaolin martial art as well as a real Wudang martial art. And Shaolin-Do is "c" none of the above.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

HuangKaiVun
08-27-2001, 12:06 AM
As long as the SD disciples are HAPPY with their Chen form, it doesn't matter how hard Fu-Pow tries to discredit their style.

If he manages to drive people away from SD, good for him.

He'll have accomplished his goal, and SD won't be infested by those who spend more time worrying about what others think as opposed to TRYING first and COMPLAINING LATER.

Radhnoti
08-27-2001, 01:09 AM
If you are saying that Fu-Pow would only discourage those who'd be discouraged later anyway, I think you have a good point Huang...
Fu-Pow, I'll tell you why I disagree with your belief that your definition of "shaolin" is the only valid one.
No one can define shaolin anymore. No one will LET someone else define shaolin, if they have the slightest link to the temple then they feel theirs has the "true" lineage or spirit or ...whatever. Try telling folks that study styles passed down from those fleeing the temple that they can't call their style shaolin anymore. You're getting worked up over a word that has no definition that anyone can agree on.
There exists shaolin kempo karate, shaolin martial arts academy (teaching karate), the international Shaolin Kenpo Assoc. , and I'm sure a million more. You imagine someday you'll be able to "reign in" everyone claiming shaolin lineage and "reclaim" the name for your style? You have as much chance of doing this as GM Sin had to unite all shaolin schools under his banner (if this happened, which I have no reason to doubt). Shaolin had such a HUGE impact on the Eastern world, it's hard to find a style NOT influenced in some way by the temple. If you're ACTUAL problem with SD is the word shaolin, you'll never be satisfied. If SD fell apart tomorrow, you'd still have thousands of schools with the name shaolin and all of them would be doing "shaolin" different than you.
Honest question, what is your definition of shaolin Fu-Pow? You say your shaolin is "real", would everyone on the forum agree with you? I ask these questions respectfully, please don't take offense...I never intentionally attack someone's style or school reputation.

reemul
08-27-2001, 03:01 AM
No

qy
08-27-2001, 05:26 AM
I just love these threads.

Ok Ok Illusionfist, Sin The says the Buddha fist form you saw is EXTERNAL. It was made a point to me cus the advertisement that was created to promote the class in 1993 or so incorrectly listed this as an internal form, so unless the rules changed again (which they very well may have) this is an external form. As Sin The explaned Internal /External have nothing to do with hard or soft. iternal flavor? By the way how the flip can you learn anything well in 5 hours? (this is a rhetorical question)

Have we addressed that SLD claims the Tiger Crane form as it's OWN? I quess thats OK if they are nice guys doing it?

SLD is going to continue to grow and profit. People are going to keep up the tradition for their own reasons. (for the most part $$) Yes most of the, can we say "original material" is Kenpo like. Yes they have assimilated some other systems, Chen Tai Chi, Hung Ga, Mantis, so on. If you look at the SLD history, the old stuff Sin and his Bro Demo KARATE like stuff. As time went on they got more material from several sources. Now we even have buddhafist forms with internal flavor??

SLD peeps please do not give the regular standard preprogrammed responses.......I know all about it. :rolleyes:

Fu-Pow
08-27-2001, 07:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> No one can define shaolin anymore. No one will LET someone else define shaolin, if they have the slightest link to the temple then they feel theirs has the "true" lineage or spirit or ...whatever. Try telling folks that study styles passed down from those fleeing the temple that they can't call their style shaolin anymore. [/quote]


So , in your opinion, if no one can agree what it is then why do people insist on putting it in front of their school's name?

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Crimson Phoenix
08-27-2001, 11:04 AM
Fu pow, it's just because if you cannot see far, you have to climb on the shoulders of someone bigger than you...if you see what I mean...many arts in China tried to trace back their lineage to shaolin in a way or the other, because it was a prestigious name and symbol...nowadays, Shaolin is a name that sells even better...
And if you want my opinion, ANY school claiming they have the original form of any art is dreaming (or trying to make YOU dream, for that matter)...I had a discussion with Shaolindynasty lately (or Shaolintiger, maybe), who had compared just ONE form passed from a single source to different students, and its evolution in these lineages...well, in the end NO ONE had the same exact form...so forget about peeps who say they have an original style, or at least the ones who say their style was practiced exactly like this back in the days...
As for the Chen taiji form, it's quite easy to verify: you go to Chen family village, Chenjia gou in China and you look at the peeps here...if the Chen might not be exactly the same as back the days, you'll get at least the idea of what Chen should be like...
Just some thoughts
Just some thoughts...

Radhnoti
08-27-2001, 03:18 PM
qy. Semi-annual? Where've you been hangin' out? It's 24/7 around here. :D Your questions seem to center around specific forms, which I have no experience with...so (for once) I'll keep my mouth shut.
Fu-Pow, I agree with Crimson Phoenix that some do so for the money. However, I also believe some truly believe (and perhaps are) carrying on a sacred trust given them by their sifu. You're assuming that most choose to name their own style, I think most simply carry on a name already chosen by someone else. If you're teaching something your sifu called Shaolin Golden Monkey wouldn't it be disrespectful to rename it? At least that's my take on the situation...

HuangKaiVun
08-27-2001, 03:31 PM
To me, it ain't "Shaolin" without the Ch'an.

Fu-Pow
08-27-2001, 07:37 PM
Crimson Phoenix

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And if you want my opinion, ANY school claiming they have the original form of any art is dreaming (or trying to make YOU dream, for that matter)...I had a discussion with Shaolindynasty lately (or Shaolintiger, maybe), who had compared just ONE form passed from a single source to different students, and its evolution in these lineages...well, in the end NO ONE had the same exact form.. [/quote]

Well, duh. I see this king of thing in my own style. No one does the forms EXACTLY the same. However, they are MOSTLY the same. The essence of the form remains the same. Furthermore, across southern shaolin styles there are lots of similarities eg Hung Gar, Lau Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Bak Mei, etc, etc. They are all derivatives of Shaolin and you can readily tell this. They are just different interpretations of the original art.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for the Chen taiji form, it's quite easy to verify: you go to Chen family village, Chenjia gou in China and you look at the peeps here...if the Chen might not be exactly the same as back the days, you'll get at least the idea of what Chen should be like...
[/quote]

Without naming names here. My lineage of Chen Taiji is from one of Chen Fake's students. After the communist revolution had passed he had to go back and reteach the Chen village Taiji because it had been eradicated there. Therefore, I pretty sure I have a source to the "real" Chen Taiji. Where did Sin The learn his Taiji? Although Neijia arts are derivative of Shaolin they developed separately from the temple. So how can he make any claim that it is part of the "original" curriculum?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You're assuming that most choose to name their own style, I think most simply carry on a name already chosen by someone else. If you're teaching something your sifu called Shaolin Golden Monkey wouldn't it be disrespectful to rename it? At least that's my take on the situation... [/quote]

First of all, are you saying that this "art" has always been know as Shaolin-Do? Are saying this is the original name? Secondly, technically my style of kung fu is Shaolin Hung-Sing Choy Lay Fut Gung Fu. But we rarely include the Shaolin in front of the name. It is not one of major "selling points."

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Silumkid
08-27-2001, 07:37 PM
I was looking at some web sites the other day and I found a few different Shaolin-Do sites. Someone had been commenting before about a "Golden Cockroach" form...I thought it was a joke, but the particular site I found DID have a "Golden Roaches - 6 forms" listed...??? Does anyone know about this form and what it entails, for my own edification?

Also, a different site had Buddha Fist as "a form related to Tai Chi" which does lead me to believe it is internal. BUT, qy posted that Sin The says it is external....so now I am confused again.

Any clarification would be appreciated.

Amitabha!

We are trained in wushu; we must protect the Temple!

Fu-Pow
08-27-2001, 09:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Also, a different site had Buddha Fist as "a form related to Tai Chi" which does lead me to believe it is internal. BUT, qy posted that Sin The says it is external....so now I am confused again.

[/quote]

If you look further up the thread I posted a quote of the website. It states that the form is Fut Gar Kuen or Buddha Fist. It also states that it is Choy Lay Fut. As a Shaolin derivative Choy Lay Fut is an "external art" any Chi Gung associated w/ Choy Lay Fut is probably some sort of Iron Shirt chi gung which has Shaolin roots. Fut Gar definitely has nothing to do with Taiji.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

Radhnoti
08-27-2001, 10:40 PM
Fu-Pow, I'm saying that in his book GM Sin says GM Ie named our system and I've gathered that's the reason we've kept the name and the gis and whatever else.
GM Sin claims to teach basically as shown by GM Ie.

In the pictures of the SD group's last trip to China there's a whole series of the Chen village.
Here's a link to the page:

http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/zhengzhou.htm

Also...there's a monument in the Chen village to Grandmaster Sin (bought by SD students) in front of what is termed "the old training facility". Don't know what that means, or who trained there...but here's the pic:

http://www.shaolincenter.com/ChinaFotos/Chen3_mr.jpg

You say you can always tell a shaolin derived system. What about the ones I mentioned? They claim the name shaolin but don't claim to be CMAs. Where's this gonna lead you Fu-Pow? And what happens when someone...let's say those currently IN the shaolin temple...comes to your school and says, "You don't have the right to the name shaolin. WE are shaolin, stop using our name." :eek:
Would your school surrender the name to the group most (not using the name shaolin) would consider most deserving of the name? I'd hope not, I'm sure you're school feels QUITE qualified to use the name. As does mine.

Crimson Phoenix
08-27-2001, 11:19 PM
Fu Pow, I feel you took my post as an attack...I wasn't attacking your chen taiji, I wasnt attacking anything anyway, just stating some criterions you can use to judge wether or not something could be said "legitimate"...I always get warry when a school says "we have the original form" hence my comment...the YOU in my "make YOU dream" part wasn't...you...but I was referring to people in general...anyway, just some clarifications

Fu-Pow
08-27-2001, 11:30 PM
Ok...Sin The's been to Chen Village. His students put this monument up, so what? I could go there and do the same thing.

As for the other pictures....they just look like your average tourist pictures. Where are the training pictures? Someone as highly recognized as Sin The would have a banquet of honor and some training while he was there? Not even any pictures of any other masters?....again...where did he learn his Taiji?


<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>You say you can always tell a shaolin derived system. What about the ones I mentioned? They claim the name shaolin but don't claim to be CMAs. Where's this gonna lead you Fu-Pow? And what happens when someone...let's say those currently IN the shaolin temple...comes to your school and says, "You don't have the right to the name shaolin. WE are shaolin, stop using our name." [/quote]


Your trying to get me to make a statement against kempo or against those other schools. I won't because I don't know that much about them. And secondly, the kempo school at least acknowledges that it is karate ie everyone knows kempo is karate.

Also, these schools also probably don't teach other people forms. I'll bet they don't claim to know Taiji, Hsing Yi, Choy Lay Fut, Hua Quan, etc etc etc.

For your info, and for Sin The's info. "The people that inhabit Shaolin temple" as I am currently calling them aren't "really" Shaolin monks. They are Wushu athletes who are trying to reclaim some of their Chinese heritage. Wushu is Shaolin derived of course, but they just took the flashiest moves and put them together. Nothing wrong with that, but don't think that because Sin The went and got his picture taken with some Wushu athlete that that makes him Shaolin.

True Shaolin exists today because Shaolin monks fled the temples at various times teaching their arts to lay people. These arts grew and changed and developed into the true Shaolin arts we know today these include CLF, Jow Ga, Hung Ga, Bak Mei, Dragon, Wing Chun, Tai Shing Pek Kwar, Hsing-Yi, Taiji Chuan, etc etc etc. Unfortunately for you, Shaolin-Do is not included in that list.

Fu-Pow

http://www.fongs-kungfu.de/assets/images/lionhead.gif

"Choy Lay Fut Kung Fu does not encourage its students to abuse or harm others with no reason. Nevertheless, in times when Kung Fu must be performed, Choy Lay Fut requires the student to change from a gentleman into a fierce and cold fighter."

-Lee Koon Hung,
CLF:The Dynamic Art of Fighting

MonkeySlap Too
08-28-2001, 12:08 AM
Just look at all the other pictures. I'm particularly fond of the 'mantis' guy.

Oh, and now Sin The' is teaching Shantung Black Tiger too. Good thing there is a book on it!

Fu Pow, there is no point in arguing. The lies will continue until the numbers who beleive them as the truth outnumber everyone else.

I'd love to have been around to ask the 'monks' what they thought. They may do a lot of modern Wushu, but hey, Wushu isn't Karate. It still resembles the things it came out of.

RADHNOTI: Are there are students of ie chang still teaching in Indonesia? Where are they? What do they practice? Do they recognize Sin The'?

I'd like to have some friends over there investigate this, so your help would be appreciated!

I am a big beleiver in luck. The more I work, the more luck I have.

qy
08-28-2001, 02:12 AM
Yes Sin The has peers in Indonesia teaching. They don't always have nice things to say though. I have seen vids from the 1992 China Trip put on by the Soards (by the way this was Sin The's first trip to China ever). When they stopped in Indonesia his peers put on a demo. A few of the forms were from Sin The's curriculum, i.e. connecting fist, and another called Lin U Chuan. These forms- Buddha Fist and a "Tai Chi Fan Form", appeared in the US after the demo. By the way none of the folks were waring a Gi, Belt, Patches, or moved in a kenpo like manner. Their movements were fluid, well practiced, and skillful.
Sorry as for these folks names, I don't have a clue. Sin The's brother also teaches, last I heard he is in the US.

Wongsifu
08-28-2001, 03:04 AM
can i join in too
shaolin do really sux man xhaolin do is pathetic . man they are so fake they go so low as to but dog boy the cirvus dude as their grandmaster.
Tehy are so pathetic their curriculum involves 400 forms with no application.
OH wait a minute shaolin do is ahead of their time. modern wushu involves more forms with no application
hmmmmmm :D :D :D

I wongsifu shall strike fear into the hearts of trolls and mma guys who **** me off on these forums oh and in real life.

The Willow Sword
08-28-2001, 08:33 AM
:rolleyes:

Whatever you think i am or want me to be,,, i am.
Luke?! Luke?! dont give into hate. That leads to the dark side.
Obi Wan Kenobi,,star wars, empire strikes back.

Radhnoti
08-28-2001, 08:57 AM
Fu-Pow, I never claimed Chen village was where GM Sin learned Tai Chi...he says it was from GM Ie. I put the Chen village picture up for Crimson Phoenix, who mentioned that SD should go to Chen village. I pointed out that the monument was put up by students, so (I think obviously) I wasn't trying to mislead. Either you're misunderstanding my point or changing the subject to avoid my point Fu-Pow. You said that the thing you had against SD, primarily, was that we use the name shaolin. Next you say I'm trying to make you badmouth other systems. No, I'm pointing out that the word shaolin is MANY things to MANY people and not everyone that uses it does what you do. I'm surprised that you feel you have the right to define shaolin, and I'm sure that the schools I pointed out agree with me.
As for the SD attitude about those occupying the Shaolin Temple, if you think they admire the style taught now then you've not been paying attention. TWS and the few SD magazine articles I've read have more than hinted at the disdain the higher SD belts have for the wushu practiced there now. (I have no problem with it...but I'm a nobody. heh) Our history is one of a monk fleeing the temple as well. And, finally, I'm sure that all the systems you've named are glad they're on your "real shaolin" list. Does that mean that when you take over the world, they can use the word shaolin in their title oh supreme ruler? :)
MonkeySlap Too, I have no idea. But I'd love to find out a bit about it.
That's interesting qy. GM Sin's brother has been referenced here several time before, if you search the threads there's even a website. The material taught at his school is almost identical in the lower belts...and they wear a gi and use japanese terms as SD often does...which had made me think that it was something learned from GM Ie. The main difference is that GM Sin's brother's group GREATLY dislikes GM Sin and the false statements they feel he's made. I'd love more info on GM Sin's "peer group" if you can dig it up, you say it was on a video you saw?
Um...thanks for joining in Wongsifu. :cool:

Crimson Phoenix
08-28-2001, 02:25 PM
English isn't my mother language...I admire it for its precision...Rad, thanks for the picture, but WHERE in my post did I mention that Shaolin Do should go to Chen village? The term Shaolin-do didn't appear once in my whole post...I was just stating a way to know what "legitimate" (note the brackets, you get the idea) ressembles to...nothing more, nothing less...
Thanks for the pic anyway, I have nothing against Shaolin-do, in fact guys I never heard of it before arriving on this forum, so I have no pre-conceived opinions on that...all I know is that many here (except SD practicionners) seem to be implicating that some aspects of it are fake...I'm just following the arguments trying to stay as neutral as I can, all that I have posted before can apply to every school on general, not SD in particular...some might feel they have a crusade to lead against SD, I don't...
All that I can say is that I could go to Chen village or Shaolin, and get a nice pic with guys from there...if I pull out enough money, I could even get my name or some certificates in there...but that wouldn't make me an expert, just a liar...it has happened before, peeps paid enough to appear on one of Dong Hai Chuan's tombstones (he had several during along the years, and each time they'd renovate or change one, new names would pop out)...all of this to say that to me pictures prove nothing, or very little...

Ground Dragon
08-28-2001, 03:59 PM
I'm a student of one of Master Hiang's (Sin's brother) senior students as well as Master Hiang. I think most stuff has been covered in previous threads, so it's best to do searches for that info. If anyone has any questions about my teachers, what we do or the history I'd be glad to answer them via email to the best of my ability.
I would be interested in hearing more about this group still practicing in Indonesia. I had heard the group had splintered over the years due to the head instructors passing away, but I'm sure some of the same material still exists over there. The school was there long enough there should be some high level practitioners around. I might do some checking on this myself

Radhnoti
08-28-2001, 05:39 PM
Grr? Crimson Phoenix, sorry if I misunderstood you...or if you misunderstood me. I didn't put the pictures up to "prove" anything, you mentioned the Chen village and I put up the link thinking you'd appreciate it. End of story.
Ground Dragon, if you come up with anything would you mind sharing it with the forum? Thanks.

KC Elbows
08-28-2001, 09:36 PM
Rad, your timing for posting that pic of the stone in chen village, perhaps inadvertantly, put it in a context of validating sin the's legitemacy in chen style tai chi. You seem to be putting out evidence, then, when that evidence is inadequate, saying that you didn't intend for that evidence to be part of your argument, but instad saying you put it out for "those who are interested".

You need to either:
1) Choose evidence that is less refuttable,

OR

2) Admit when you have no info to work with.

Painting techniques are worldwide, but only an idiot calls a Dali a Pollock.

No offense to either Dali or Pollock, who I'm sure had no affiliation with SD, though having had the same time at the temple as Sin The, both painters undoubtedly had their own sects of shaolin.

Oh ****. Did I flame?

Radhnoti
08-29-2001, 01:20 AM
I indicated that the monument was puchased by GM Sin's students in the post, I can't change that so feel free to double check me. If I'd meant the monument to be misconstrued as "proof" I don't imagine I'd have mentioned that.
1. I didn't submit any "evidence", sometimes I throw things out on the board that interest me. Usually I do so on the main forum...I did research for about an hour the other day on dao's and posted the results. This time Crimson Phoenix's post reminded me of the pictures posted by the SD students on their visit to Chen village.
Sorry for the confusion. If I ever present "evidence" I'll label it as such, but don't hold your breath as I've not run across anything other than opinion so far.
2. I admit that I have no info beyond my own experiences (or what others say) to work with. But it seems that neither does anyone else. K C Elbows, did you MEAN to imply that the only way to learn a shaolin system would be to go to the Shaolin Temple? Many on this forum seem to disagree, but thanks for your input.

Crimson Phoenix
08-29-2001, 10:41 AM
Okie...thanks Rad...the pic is quite huge though...

bratok304
08-31-2001, 02:28 AM
So, when is this... CHALLENGE? I want to hear what happens... and btw, november approches....

your "honorable" warrior.... :rolleyes:

Braden
08-31-2001, 08:48 AM
Seriously guys... I didn't read through this whole ridiculous thread, so I'm sure I missed something.

But is this still gonna happen?

If so, anyone taking bets? ;)

Sharky
08-31-2001, 05:53 PM
if you don't film it, you are all really stupid.

reemul, he has 15 years experience, how much do you have?

I agree with everything fu pow has said.

================================================== ==========================

"What you wan' cry fo? You know that my hammer is heavy and it got kick like tae kwon do, now you gwarn die slow... I'ma show you how to stretch a m0ther****er if you wanna watch tae bo"

reemul
09-03-2001, 10:17 AM
The main writer/director of an inde film we were involved with has agreed to film it.

KC Elbows
09-03-2001, 10:52 PM
Would it really be interesting to watch? I just don't see it. I checked out Lexington's SD school when I was out there, and I wasn't impressed. I've seen worse, hell, I've even practiced with worse(years ago), but still, not a group that should take on temple monks. Even if the monks know modern wushu, that's not all they know, and anyone who deludes themselves into thinking that the temple would challenge using anything but a fighting monk is only setting themselves up for a beating.

PRC says "Destroy the SD fighter or else!"

Sin The says "Destroy the monk with your traditional Tae Kwon Do...er...traditional shaolin kung fu! No really! You can do it! Iron head, schmiron Head! Remember, we've got a plaque, over there! Does HE have a plaque over there, NO! I'll bet he doesn't have half as many schools as me."

4 seconds entertainment tops. Seems like a waste of time really. The Shaolin temple should leave lame American schools to the good American schools. Aren't there any mcdojos in China?

mortal
09-03-2001, 11:18 PM
I have to admit the monks(any of them) are so fast and powerful. It really is foolish to think any of us mere mortals could defeat them.lol Any one who thinks that has never seen them do anything in real life. If they did, and they still thought that they would have a chance, humbling themselves is in order. It would just be more of a question of how many micro seconds it would take to beat any of us. These guys can kick and punch for hours with tons of energy. How can any of us match that unless we trained hard for twenty years. Oh and started when we were 6. :D

yutyeesam
05-15-2002, 05:11 AM
What is Shaolin-Do? Is this a real Chinese martial art? It looks like Karate with a few kung-fu moves.

Radhnoti
05-15-2002, 07:25 AM
A karate guy looks at SD and says, "Look, it's kung-fu." A kung-fu guy looks at SD and says, "Look, it's karate." Kempo guys look at SD and say, "Hey, I recognize a lot of that...but it's not my kempo."
If I'm not mistaken, Shaolin-do is nothing like the Shaolin practiced by anyone else on the board. If you're just looking to classify it you could throw it under the category of kempo-ish and I don't think you'd be wrong. Feel free to PM me if you want any other info about SD.

This subject has been buried for a good long time around here, I hope things can stay civil. But, if not, I guess I'm ready to go.
;)

norther practitioner
05-15-2002, 07:37 AM
Shaolin-Do, watch out for this one, as there have been many a war of words over this MA. It is somewhere in between Shaolin Kempo and Karate (from what I have seen). Just watch out, I have been ehem....told that it is the only true Shaolin, which by the way is the ****hest thing from the truth. But I am not an expert, so take that for what it is.

yutyeesam
05-15-2002, 08:20 AM
I didn't realize this was a pandora's box topic. I don't want to start a flaming thread. What is the history of this art? Wouldn't that tell it all?

123

yutyeesam
05-15-2002, 09:28 AM
What did Alice Cooper say?

norther practitioner
05-15-2002, 09:50 AM
http://www.russbo.com/cgi-bin/discus/discus.cgi

go to "other martial arts"
There you will find a few threads on Shaolin-do, or as some refer to it......shaolin d'oh

Radhnoti
05-15-2002, 10:17 AM
Or you could do a search for it on this forum.
It'd be better than dredging up all the hostility.
Unless that's what you're looking for?
:)
You wouldn't be the first.

GeneChing
05-15-2002, 10:26 AM
We've been down this road before. Just check our archives. I'd prefer not to go down it again, but we probably will. :mad:

"let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late" - Dylan

Silumkid
05-15-2002, 01:10 PM
Gene, didn't Hendrix say that first? I could be wrong...

yutyeesam
05-15-2002, 02:12 PM
Okay, okay I'll do a search on this myself. Let's kill this thread. Please, no trouble. I had no idea my inquiry was the potential for war. Peace, everyone.

Gene, maybe you can remove this thread, I honestly want no trouble.:(

123

norther practitioner
05-15-2002, 02:26 PM
We're just messing around man, no offense to you yutyeesam. But I think your idea is best.

Brad
05-15-2002, 09:26 PM
There's nothing wrong with an argument as long as it stays in this thread. Gene should just make this the new official "Shaolin-Do" thread, and delete any new SD threads that pop up.

GeneChing
05-16-2002, 09:52 AM
... oh you young'ens don't know your roots. Hendrix. sheesh. sillumkid, you owe me a beer for that one.

I agree with the bulk of you, no need to delete the thread. Everyone's been very respectful so far - I think all the veterans of this forum knows where this one leads, and we don't really care to waste much more energy on it.

Radhnoti
05-16-2002, 10:58 AM
Well, I'd be glad to let this one slide down the page into nothingness. No more posts on this thread would be GREAT.
;)

I'm only posting this since it's on top right now, and it can't get MORE on top.

Shaolindynasty
05-16-2002, 11:39 AM
I miss the days when I found a good shaolin do fight interesting. If you seriously want to know more about shaolin do pm willow sword, he has an interesting new perspective on it considering his recent experiences brought about from a challenge match caused by this forum. I am sure he doesn't want to post in this thread though.

GeneChing
05-20-2002, 10:28 AM
And we worked some of the bugs out of the search engine, but it's still far from perfect. At least you can search more than 3 letters now. All good things in all good time.

You'll find the big Shaolin Do challenge thing we had back around page 13 (note: this page number will change as we move forward in time - it was page 13 on this date.) You'll find a lot of old Shaolin Do threads by just going back into those archives and reading the titles.

Have fun :rolleyes:

TenTigers
05-21-2002, 09:28 PM
Gene,
I remember being in a record store (this alone dates me-my kids say, "what are records?") and this girl was looking at Beatle Albums because "That's the band Paul McCartney used to play in"or people who like Hendrix because he sounds like Robin Trower, or Stevie Ray Vaughn. AAAGGGGGHHHH!!!!!!

diego
05-22-2002, 01:58 AM
:D Genes just like GDMF WHAT!!!, I love my forum:rolleyes: :cool:

diego
05-22-2002, 02:00 AM
TenTigers learn how to dj, and force your kids to like rap, eventually they will study its roots, soon they will start scratching your old records:) Not a bad idea eh!?.

GeneChing
05-22-2002, 09:40 AM
I'm with you brother. So few pop stars can actually play music anymore. It's a sorry state of affairs and reflects poorly on our culture. :(