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rogue
12-07-2004, 09:00 PM
Could Europeans not be as tolerant as Americans? (http://abcnews.go.com/International/story?id=289575&page=1)

Please note that this is from an American news source.

Kristoffer
12-08-2004, 02:51 AM
Wierd title for that article. I can bet you my nunchucks that muslims have it better in Europe than in America though. Maybe spreading propaganda about an entire culture, and religion wasn't as good idea as your leaders thought.

David Jamieson
12-08-2004, 05:19 AM
If I were you, I wouldn't watch any american newscasts in regards to what is going on outside your borders. lol, Stick to the local news.

rogue
12-08-2004, 05:22 AM
Evil laugh as the quarry steps into the trap of their own words.

David Jamieson
12-08-2004, 05:31 AM
just wanna add...

If you is whitey and you is outside europe, you still got the euro seed in ya.

Nations are not the big dividers, it's ideologies that do this and from that division come nations, which eventually war with each other over material possession or ideology.

anyway, individuals are or are not tolerant of each other. I think you would find many Chinese intolerant of americans, or many africans intolerant of british and dutch emigrees.

In short, that article was drivel and was coming out of a spout that has no real meaning. :p

ZIM
12-08-2004, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by rogue
Evil laugh as the quarry steps into the trap of their own words.
Do...not...seek....the treasure.....

red5angel
12-08-2004, 07:38 AM
I can bet you my nunchucks that muslims have it better in Europe than in America though.

I'd take that bet, pay attention to the world news lately?



If I were you, I wouldn't watch any american newscasts in regards to what is going on outside your borders. lol, Stick to the local news.

ah kung lek and you were doing so well. would you like us to watch Canadian news instead? how about if we were canadians living in canada? Or should we go for more alternative, leftist news sources like the ones you tend to quote? America has a pretty good environment for the news you just have to know where to look, and it isn't that hard to find. Instead some people, like yourself, stay focused on your own hatred and biased outlook and can't see past the things you want to. If I were, I'd stop reading the news all together, it just makes you look like a retard.

David Jamieson
12-08-2004, 08:00 AM
you so funny. american news unbiased and informed viewpoint. lol

hahahahahahahahaha...

excuse me.

hahhaahahahahahahahaaha.

you know, you do have the opportunity to see other newscasts, just like me! My brother in retardedness.:rolleyes:

bbc, cbc, al J, cnn, internet sources of decent repute...all these things = better than straight up cultural biased views that are coming out of any single country.

So yeah, I think it's important to get out of teh boundaries of yoru own cultural relativity and see what other nations view your news as. At least that way you can form a more rounded opinion of the matters at hand.

three letters make what you see on yoru news. F - C - C

Kristoffer
12-08-2004, 08:02 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
I'd take that bet, pay attention to the world news lately?






yeah I have. so, u own me a pair of nunchos now?

red5angel
12-08-2004, 08:13 AM
yeah I have. so, u own me a pair of nunchos now?

LOL, I'm just saying that I think although we're at war with Iraq you're not giving americans enough credit. First of all you're generalizing in a huge way about american people. The type of person that hates lives all over the world, the article on this thread underlines that fact. I see the muslims in my city living as well as anyone else, and I don't see a lot of open anger or hatred being expressed. It happens all over the world.



FCC bwahahahahahahahahahaaa FCC, you crack me up, and make me cry at the same time.

Chang Style Novice
12-08-2004, 08:20 AM
Just out of curiousity - what European country is it that's detaining Muslims in Gitmo for years on end without legal representation or charges being filed?

red5angel
12-08-2004, 08:22 AM
Just out of curiousity - what European country is it that's detaining Muslims in Gitmo for years on end without legal representation or charges being filed?

just out of curiosity what eurpoean country lost 3000 of it's innocent citizens to a terrorist attack? :rolleyes:

Chang Style Novice
12-08-2004, 08:26 AM
Doesn't make what we're doing OK, and it certainly doesn't make it a selling point for US treatment of Islam.

Anyway, Europe has had terrorism for decades, both from the Middle East and elsewhere, if you actually followed world news, you'd know that.

red5angel
12-08-2004, 08:30 AM
what is ok CSN? should we just turn the other cheek? maybe just take a pass on someone killing out citizens? you got a better idea for fighting cowardly folks who hide amonsgt the civilian populations of the world waiting to kill again?

Sorry brother but you got to break a few eggs to bake a cake and you got to get fukking real about what is "right" or " wrong" in this world.

yes I know Europe has had terrorism for years, don't be a retard. that's not the point, war was declared and we have stepped up to the plate. you gutys have got to suck it up, open your eyes or slit your throats now and get out of the way.

Chang Style Novice
12-08-2004, 08:40 AM
Under the Bush administration we have exactly 0 convictions for terrorist activity related to 9-11. The one case we've actually managed to bring to trial is a giant embarrassment. We may be breaking eggs, but there's no cake in sight.

My better idea - competence from our leaders and security agencies.

Western Europe hasn't had an attack at the 9-11 level since WWII. Maybe we should be learning something from them, hm?

David Jamieson
12-08-2004, 08:42 AM
start breakin eggs then red, cause you make yourself look like a b vs w ****head with your arguments.

Dude, the wtc attack was not made by Iraq. Don't be a moron.
The invasion and occupation of Iraq is a twisted little thing coming only out of teh Bush camp and has nothing to do with loss of life on american soil.

If you cannot relate or understand that, then the only "retard" as you have an affinity for throwing it around...is you.

now go watch something other than Oreilly ya knob.

red5angel
12-08-2004, 08:47 AM
My better idea - competence from our leaders and security agencies.

:rolleyes: nice catch-all overly generalized statement. My better idea - peace on earth :rolleyes: their competence is a matter of yoru opinion, one that's apparently in the minority by the way, unless you've got some conspiracy for how they got back to serve another term?
You guys are more then welcome to react from your gut all you want. A knee jerk reaction to supposed human rights and "morality" is all fine and dandy until your on the top floor of a burning sky scraper and trying to figure out what you did to deserve a horrible death. It's nice to sit in your comfy little chari there CSN and cast down judgement on how things are done or should be done. Oh sure you're sacrificing all your rights. I bet you hardly leave your house without worrying whether you're going to picked up next. Please, all this bleeding heart bull**** gets you nothing but 3000 people dead and thousands more in the works. You're morality and your human rights are just a sugar coated topping to make you sleep better at night.


Western Europe hasn't had an attack at the 9-11 level since WWII. Maybe we should be learning something from them, hm?

Ok, nice logic, I'm going to let you figure out what's wrong with it on your own.

KL, you were dimissed a long time ago from these conversations, stay that way please.

Kristoffer
12-08-2004, 08:55 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
LOL, I'm just saying that I think although we're at war with Iraq you're not giving americans enough credit. First of all you're generalizing in a huge way about american people. The type of person that hates lives all over the world, the article on this thread underlines that fact. I see the muslims in my city living as well as anyone else, and I don't see a lot of open anger or hatred being expressed. It happens all over the world.




You're right. This does happen all over and not just in some places. Maybe I'm generalizing when I say muslims have it better here than over there because the US is pretty big and it's probebly better in some places and worse in other. But even though this article was better than some extreme propaganda I've seen about the subject, the article is also very generalizing itself. (but it's one of the few serious ones atleast) How many countrys are there in Europe? There's alot. And that article touches only subjects from very few of em.

The problems do exist but they look different depending on which country you look at. The attitude aswell. Is it safe to say that these patterns in some countrys can describe the situation of the entire Europe? I would say no.

Also. The fact that everytime Americans wants to discuss muslims or Islam the discussion seems to become a discussion about terrorism. How's that for mistreatment

red5angel
12-08-2004, 08:57 AM
I've seen about the subject, the article is also very generalizing itself.

I agree kristoffer. Thanks for keeping it in perspective as well. For myself, I don't enough about what it's like to be a muslim in Europe or even other parts of my own country. I know the muslims in the minneapolis St. Paul area seem to be doing ok. I'm sure they feel some pressure, some anger, some happiness and all the other emotions one could feel in a situation like this. Hopefully someday they won't have to worry about where they live, and neither will we.

Shaolinlueb
12-08-2004, 08:58 AM
europe is under attack from luebstyle. they cant handle it.

norther practitioner
12-08-2004, 08:58 AM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
If I were you, I wouldn't watch any american newscasts in regards to what is going on outside your borders. lol, Stick to the local news.

:rolleyes:

rogue
12-08-2004, 09:04 AM
Under the Bush administration we have exactly 0 convictions for terrorist activity related to 9-11.

The trap tightens....

red5angel
12-08-2004, 09:18 AM
europe is under attack from luebstyle. they cant handle it.

I've seen the product of this "luebstyle" I understand they have to bring in whole fire departments to clean up after it. :D

ZIM
12-08-2004, 09:41 AM
Originally posted by rogue
The trap tightens....
Ulysses Everett McGill: The treasure is still there boys, believe me.

Delmar O'Donnell: But how'd he know about the treasure?

Ulysses Everett McGill: I don't know Delmar. The blind are reputed to possess sensitivities compensating for their lack of sight, even to the point of developing paranormal psychic powers. Now, clearly seeing into the future would fall neatly into that category; its not so surprising then that an organism deprived of its earthly vision...

Pete: He said we wouldn't get it. He said we wouldn't get the treasure we seek on account of our ob-stac-les.

Ulysses Everett McGill: Well what the hell does he know, he's just an ignorant old man!

Christopher M
12-08-2004, 10:04 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
would you like us to watch Canadian news instead?

Yes. American news really is trash.

Anyway, Europeanness is fully capable of defending itself: it can do whatever it pleases without any public criticism due to the strategic placing of America as a smokescreen. I mean, yes: they're outlawing hijabs and destroying the Ivory Coast. But Bush mispronounces "nuclear"!!! :eek:

red5angel
12-08-2004, 10:14 AM
awesome movie Zim!




Yes. American news really is trash.

I've found everyone seems to have a little trash mixed into their news ;)

ZIM
12-08-2004, 10:23 AM
Originally posted by red5angel
awesome movie Zim!
I'm a Dapper Dan man. :D

And it's spot-on in this case, I fear.

rogue
12-08-2004, 07:35 PM
Dude, the wtc attack was not made by Iraq. Don't be a moron.
The invasion and occupation of Iraq is a twisted little thing coming only out of teh Bush camp and has nothing to do with loss of life on american soil.

If you cannot relate or understand that, then the only "retard" as you have an affinity for throwing it around...is you.

now go watch something other than Oreilly ya knob.
Once again Kunk Lug tries to defeat the correct only to be choked out yet again.



Under the Bush administration we have exactly 0 convictions for terrorist activity related to 9-11.
Who said we were looking for convictions? But we'll have those as soon as the bad guys are finished being questioned.

Big_Phat_Wong
12-09-2004, 01:31 AM
Kristoffer,

why is it that Muslims throw rocks at ambulances in Malmo and the police do nothing about it? And why do they get away with raping teenage Swedish girls?

Propaganda? Gimme a break. Every bombing, murder, mutilation, stoning, rape, honor killing and wife beating those peaceful Muslims commit can be traced right back to the Quran. You want to see hypocrisy? Look no further than Europeans and their sanctimonious crap.


Kung Lek,

leave it to you to miss the forest for the trees. After all, the Iraqis were much better off under the regime of Saddam, who killed hundreds of thousands, gassed kids, had women kidnapped by his sons and raped, and locked people up in his torture chambers.

The Americans got rid of him, want to destroy terrorists who also threaten the ordinary Iraqi people, and actually gave Iraq democracy by having them hold elections in which they can choose their own leaders.

But we all know that getting rid of a man who killed, oppressed and tortured his own people has nothing to do with liberation and everything to do with enslaving them, right? :rolleyes:

scotty1
12-09-2004, 04:11 AM
Hi there

If you say "Europeaness" fast it sounds like "you're a p3nis"


why is it that Muslims throw rocks at ambulances in Malmo and the police do nothing about it?

Dunno, but little white kids do the same thing in loads of European cities.


And why do they get away with raping teenage Swedish girls?

I very much doubt Malmo muslims are granted special dispensation to rape Swedish girls.

You seem to have got a real hatred thing going on there BPW.

sayloc
12-09-2004, 04:57 AM
"Could Europeans not be as tolerant as Americans"?

Germany is in Europe. Think back to 1939. They didnt detain thousands they killed millions. And dont tell me the rest of Europe did not know about it. Let the muslims kill a few more of their movie producers and see what happens :)

I have spent some time in Europe. They brought the mulsims in to do the work that they did not want to do now there are, according to the Europeans "to many of them". I am not sure what Europes "Final solution" to solve thier problem will be. I hope not like the past ones.

And for the rest of the world, think back to the cultural revolution. For that matter China today.

Africa? There is still slavery there. I dont see any one so concerned about that. I would think the Europeans would fix that.

The US has an imigration problem because everyone wants to go to the US . Must be a TERRIBLE place.

I have a feeling the Muslims in the US love living there. I know the guys who flew the airplanes into the trade center loved the freedom they had to visit strip clubs the night before they sent themselves to heaven. Figure that one out.

Not sure how this thread got on a Kung fu board. Cant figure that one out either.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 05:38 AM
How many people get locked up in the states for crime? 2 maybe 2 and a half million?

Yes all those people saddam threw in prison were innocent!innocent i tell ya! what a rube thing to say.

How many people went to their deaths in just the state of texas under george bushes governorship? 100's? what's that more than any other governor ever you say? Yikes!

I just love how the spin is put on everything regarding the non-connection of Iraq to WTC attacks.

I'm guessing there' something in the water in thoise red states. lol

how many people die in crimes in the US in a year? Is that stat higher or lower than how it was in Iraq before the invasion.

What about infrastructure? HOw many schools did Saddam build? What about teh highway system? Hospitals? Iraq was a pile of sand before Saddam took over and built it up with a lot of dollars from teh petro trade.

Saddam built his army with US assistance and in fact had bio-chem weapons GIVEN to him by teh US administration. Remember who handled diplomacy with Iraq on those matters way back in teh 80's? Why it was that collosal failure of an idiot Donald Rumsfeld who now sits his idiot ass in the second term of teh Bush admin.

honestly, choo guys gots some problems and I understand that you will puff your chest despite the massive swollen pimple on your face. :rolleyes:

lol @ bleeting sheep.

TAO YIN
12-09-2004, 05:43 AM
Sarcastic cough,

Although I have lived in many places throughout the world, only Americans are shiot! Kill whitey! Kill whitey!

Realistic cough,

"Some quite a few of" people are just inherently shiot, no matter where the fark they live.

I digress.

America's News Agenda: To keep America realizing some sort of something, and a few other things.

Other Nation's News Agenda: To keep "them" realizing some sort of something, a few other things, and of course, how shiot America is.

Bottom Line: Whitey must die.

Again, digression.

Last week, I asked my Chinese students two questions so as to get an "English" debate happening. First question: Is racial discrimination good or bad? Now, of course, the vast, vast I say, majority answer was BAD. Second question: Is national discrimination good or bad? Now, of course, the vast, vast I say, majority answer was GOOD. Funny that huh? What is that called???

Government is up there. We are down here. We are the lowly peasants trying to "get" something. The funniest thing of all of this non-sense is that...everyone eventually dies.

Oh yeah,

KUNG LEK

Are you white? Did you live in America? Are you racist? You know, what you usually say about America with you want-to-be references, is just plain dumb.

Believe 1/4 of what you hear.
Believe 1/4 of what you see.
Believe 1/2 of what you do.

And in the end of it all, shut up, and know that you are just an idiot with reason who can listen, read, and act...Humanity.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 05:58 AM
KUNG LEK

Are you white? Did you live in America? Are you racist? You know, what you usually say about America with you want-to-be references, is just plain dumb

Dude, yourself included I have yet to see any of the redneck tribe answer anything I've said with an actual answer as opposed to the sort of nonsense diatribe you just spewed out. lol

But I've come to expect it from one end of the crowd.

You can't see the polarization of your entire nation can you? You can only see that your half is in charge and therefor the other half should be subjigated to your will. as in majority rules right? which is exactly what a dictatorship is ****head.

I've never seen america so divided in my 40 trips around the sun. The world as a geopolitical arena has only gotten worse and has not gotten better in all my life.

Face it, swallow the crow and get yoru foreign policies examined and changed.

If you want to stop terrorism you have to stop poverty around the world. Do you think all those jobs that are shifting away from teh states and going to other nations are for the economic benefit of those other nations? NOOOOO they are for the benefit of teh company stakeholders so they can pay a guy in INdia 20 bucks a day instead of paying you 200 bucks a day. capice?

The american taxpayer is so screwed over, half of em don't even know what's up or down anymore. Your country has issues and why is it that many people around the world think the US is ****? Why do you think? I can't wait to hear you answers.

Guy made a great point on Larry King last night.

He said:

You wanna stop terrorism, stop poverty, you wanna stop poverty, educate. There are a 1/4 billion children in some form of indentured slavery around teh world working laborious tasks. Even in the USA with the migrant farm workers this is an issue believe it or not.

These kids cannot break the cycle themselves and as long as they have no hope, you better hope they don't get their hands on a gun when they are bitter, broken, used up and 25 years old and filled with rage towards those they see clearly as the ones who oppressed them.

In the meantime, educate yourselves and stoip tuning a blind eye to the horrendous and absolutely collosal mistakes and errors your current american administration is making in its dealings aroudn the world. You are rotting from within I am sorry to say, It could be a lot better with sounder minds at the helm in my not so humble opinion.

regards

sayloc
12-09-2004, 06:34 AM
Kung leK

Why wernt you living in Irag? Maybe afraid one of sadaams sons would rape your wife? You probably wouldnt see anything wrong with that either.

The reason we may send jobs to another country is because guys like you are at work posting on forums on company time. Get back to work.

What have you done to help the poor people around the world? Unless you have done something then shut up. George W sends alot of money around the world to feed these "poor people" so stop whining.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 06:58 AM
Kung leK

Why wernt you living in Irag? Maybe afraid one of sadaams sons would rape your wife? You probably wouldnt see anything wrong with that either.

The reason we may send jobs to another country is because guys like you are at work posting on forums on company time. Get back to work.

What have you done to help the poor people around the world? Unless you have done something then shut up. George W sends alot of money around the world to feed these "poor people" so stop whining.



typical:rolleyes: but I'll answer you anyway.

point one, why aren't I living in Iraq.... hmmn well maybe because i was born raised and live on the other side of the world. Is that good enough for you? I'm not certain there are Iraqis here that will or won't rape my wife, but that seems like a bit of a weirdass question. Do you have some personal fear at play in this?

second point, I run my own company *******, If i feel like posting here, I will. What a dumb thing to say when you yourself are doing same.

As for what do I do to help people around the world? What's it to ya? Do you want to here about my contributions to Unicef? How about the family my wife and I help to support in Burkina Faso? How about what I do locally like working in the social justice arena for a few years feeding hungry families through the institutionalized poverty we have created here because our governments won't deal with it?

George W sends a lot of money to people who put it into swiss bank accounts and could care less about the hungry people in manyt many cases. How does W intend to ensure that the aid dollars are spent correctly as opposed to becoming Noriega type monies?

Anyway, you keep living happily in your opaque orb of nimbyness.
yeesh. It's weird to think about how many people are out there that think of teh same nonsense as you because they haven't got the cajones to actually do something about it. You are passive under an aggressive regime.

There needs to be a plan for education worldwide and it needs to be overseen by those who are capable. Drop teachers, not bombs.

sayloc
12-09-2004, 07:20 AM
I was just assuming you lived in the US. Since you believe that sadaam was such a great guy and th US sucks you should have moved thier.

I am guessing you are a canadian.

By the way, Adolf Hitler did many of the same things for Germany that you mentioned Saadam did for Iraq.

I run my company in the evening. So I have a little more time in the morning. I still think you should get back to work and send more money the poor people.

If you do run your own company you probably dont even offer health benifits for your employees, do you? What a great guy.

Have a good day:)

TAO YIN
12-09-2004, 07:39 AM
KUNG LEK,

HAHAHAHAHA! RACIST! See! Listen to yourself, or should I say, read what you just wrote. Redneck? No, a redneck would say "Iz gonna claw ya fuuking eyes out of ya fukking skull Kung Lek, den Iz gonna fuuk you wife." Now, a redneck wouldn't DO that to you, but it would be somewhere along those lines. You know nothing of a redneck. Nonsense diatribe? I am glad you like laughing at yourself. Everything is non-sense to you, no matter how realistic it is. You didn't answer any of my questions. AND YOU TOTALLY EITHER MISUNDERSTOOD MY POST OR ARE JUST PLAIN DUMB. And I bet that you would say that you aren't racist...right?

Polarization? No, can't see it now. I don't live there. I don't see it, hear it, and do it at the moment. Plus I don't care. This has nothing to do with "my" will. I didn't vote. I am involved in nothing other than being a stupid human just like you. Here, there, I am a lowly peasant with a few bucks waiting to die, just like you. THE WHOLE WORLD IS "MAGNETIZED" TO MONEY AND THINGS BECAUSE PEOPLE WANT! The whole world is farked up in many regards, not just America. This is life as it is at the moment. Life sucks. If you want to do something about it, go do something about it. If not, shut the fark up and be happy to breathe. The whole world is rotting from the inside out because of humans like you and me who come to take it for everything that it is worth. Do you grow your own food? Heell, do you even know how to grow food? What do you drink for supper Kung Lek? Have you ever had a coke? Well, you just paid America. What kind of clothes do you wear, or do you make them yourself? Do you drive a car or a truck? I could go on but won't because you produce waste and consume goods just like every other human. No matter how much good you do, it means nothing to the world at large. It means something only to you and the people you know and have helped.

Many people around the world think that ALL European countires are shiot, including yours. I could list a thousand reasons why. Which one would you like me to list so that you can reply to it from your own farked up perspective and make yourself feel like you know something other than the fact that we live and die, the world is strange, and money and government rules?

Who am I going to talk to about foreign policies? Seeing as how I always make such a huge impact on the world. You suggest I run for office? Should I hold a rock the vote rally and dine with the W.T.O afterwards? Write a letter to my state's Governor so that his secretary can skim it and throw it in the trash? How about a P.T.O meeting? The powers that be will always be the powers that be. Government is government, and its people are its people under its control.

As for the companys going overseas. Yeah WO FARKING DONG, I UNDERSTAND, CAPICE, CAPICE. However, that 20 dollars is a lot for that man from India. So they took "my" job away and wan't to make MONEY just like every other company in the WORLD. Shiot happens, regularly.

Anyway, you keep talking from your own perspective because that is all you have. I know you don't want to lose face, it's okay. Hey, it sucks when you know the other guy is right but have to keep spewing doesn't it? If you figure out world peace, let me know.


Tao


"We are victims of our own perspective."

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 07:44 AM
lol.

man, you guys sure make a case for my stance on education anyway.:rolleyes:

I guess there are some who kind of understand...and then there's those who are like you.

whatever dudes, take all the shots you want at me.
way to go. :rolleyes:

sayloc
12-09-2004, 07:47 AM
I will close my part of the discussion now.

I know that for the next four years I will have tender, compassionate leadership with George W Bush.

God bless America......God bless Gearge W Bush!

Kung lek

(Sorry to offend you and mention "God")

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 07:48 AM
why run away?

why not debate?

hmmm, typical.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 07:51 AM
btw, i take no offense at the invocation of god.

TAO YIN
12-09-2004, 07:52 AM
Yeah, I figured you would say something stupid like that.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 07:54 AM
By the looks of your posts, you "figure" a lot of things.:rolleyes:

But that's ok, because you are at least trying to learn.
was that stupid enough for you TY?

TAO YIN
12-09-2004, 08:00 AM
hehehehhe,

Yeah, I figure. I come to a conclusion by hearing, seeing, doing, and realizing from my own experiences. Not from reading a newspaper and thinking I have all the answers. You can educate the kids all you want, I do so every day. At the end of the day, the world is farked up and beautiful.

Can you understand anyone else's perspective besides your own?

Seriously, do you understand?

Reality sucks sometimes, bud.

rogue
12-09-2004, 08:05 AM
KL, finding himself ensnared in his own trap starts to thrash around.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 08:06 AM
But we all know that getting rid of a man who killed, oppressed and tortured his own people has nothing to do with liberation and everything to do with enslaving them, right?

didn't you hear big phat wong? It's all about the oil. ;)



How many people went to their deaths in just the state of texas under george bushes governorship? 100's?

I swear to god I didnt' think you could get any more stupid KL. Are you seriously comparing 100's of people executed in a prison in a democratic country to thousands and hundreds of thousands of people gassed in a pogrom?! Fukk, if I were you, I'd be embarrassed to have ever made that entire post. Talk about wearing your ignorance on your sleeve. The depths of your stupidity shocks even me.




Dude, yourself included I have yet to see any of the redneck tribe answer anything I've said with an actual answer as opposed to the sort of nonsense diatribe you just spewed out.

That's because ages ago you showed you were incapable of using real evidence, backing up what you have to say and listening to anyone else. Now, no one even bothers to answer you with any sort of a serious reply to things like "Killing criminials in Texas is the same thing as killing hundreds of thousands of people because we don't like them." Your so stupid and ignorant it literally borders on the insane.
Then you have to follow it uop with bullsh!t like this:


second point, I run my own company *******,

Is that company in a really tough part of town, you know, the tough part of town you grew up in :rolleyes:

Toa Yin, just in case you weren't aware - "Redkneck" by Kung Lek's definition is apparently someone who tends to look at the world more rationally, doesn't buy into the conspiracy crap and bush hating propoganda he does, and has some focus on the bigger picture instead of the small brained hatred of one or two individuals. Essentially, if you're not an idiot, you must be a redkneck.......

Oh I would incite him to rage, he grew up in a rough part of town, he could probably take you out or something.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 08:06 AM
Seriously, do you understand?

well, this stuff ain't coming to me in blurry dreams bud. :p

I can and do try to understand the shape of the world from the sources I can access.

I have some bias, like anyone else. I am not comfortable on the fence. Doing is infinitely more meaningful than just saying, but this still doesn't discount the power of words.

words make tears fall as well as bombs. So, we all need to take a stance and we all need to constantly review our position as the world around us changes.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 08:08 AM
KL, finding himself ensnared in his own trap starts to thrash around.

it happens everytime he opens his trap about politics. Stupidity, racism and hatred are all that come out.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 08:10 AM
well, this stuff ain't coming to me in blurry dreams bud.
It HAS to be, its just to freakin lame to come from any other source!


I have some bias, like anyone else. I am not comfortable on the fence


BWAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHHAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA!!!


What a fukking hypocrite you are. I have "some" biases and I am not comfotable sitting on the fence?! Easy to say sitting at your cushy desk you fukking hypocrite. I hope your soggy@ss gets' to find your head and pull it out one of these days.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 08:33 AM
It was only a matter of time before you showed up red5.

thanks for coming out with your usual brand of bile.
still sounds the same.
still looks the same.

hope the sun dries it before it gets picked up and tossed. :p

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 08:35 AM
by the way, I find your denials of events to be interesting to say the least.

my what weird perspectives some of you have not only about what I have to say, but about what is actually going on.

p.s rogue- I don't feel that I'm thrashing around at all.

here's my view:

I don't support the Bush agenda and the war in Iraq.
I don't think what was done was by any stretch "correct".
I do think there is a lot of ass covering going on in regards to saddam and a lot of demonization of the arab world made by the same people who have heavily contributed to the creation of that environment and the people who are leading the way in their even higher flames of rage and hatred towards america.

My view is how can this be stopped? Is military action the way? In my opinion, no.

The way it can be stopped is as I described earlier, but I guess vengeance is all important to some and they will have it despite the facts and despite reason.

as soon as someone points out that maybe someone that is "percieved" as evil had actually done some good things, oh that person becomes a lover of that person. THat is pretty twisted.

Red, you say there are hundreds of thousands of mass graves and executions were rampant etc etc. Can you please tell me how that is any different (if true) than dropping bombs and killing 100.000 Iraqis (possibly 200,000)?

Can you tell me how saddams dictatorship differs so greatly from say, Syrias? Or Saudi Arabis? O)r Libyas? Or Irans? Or pretty much 80% of Africa?

You can't possibly be so blind? Can you?

red5angel
12-09-2004, 08:40 AM
"thanks for coming out with your usual brand of bile.
still sounds the same.
still looks the same."

Pot calling the kettle black you retard.

Seriously though, it was good for a laugh this morning, but go read a book or something.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 08:43 AM
Pot calling the kettle black you retard.

*sigh*

again, this is typical of you.
But i've come to expect this from a mind like yours.

At least you hang on to your bitterness and hatred of all things to do with reason. So that makes you consistent. A little stupid, but consistent none the less.

Thanks for coming out.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 08:47 AM
not noticing a pattern here dumb@ss?

your hatred has made you so ignorant that you can actually go in semi public and state the things you do openly, without ever actually thinking about them! I'd guess you were getting them form your conspiracy websites but no way that many people are that stupid.
You serious need to reevaluate what you're saying before you say it dude. I'm still in shock you'd even say the things you have on this thread. I just don't understand how even you could reach those depths of ignorance.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 08:52 AM
not noticing a pattern here dumb@ss?

i think i just indicated to you that I do see a pattern.

Can you please indicate to me what I have said openly that is comnpletely off base? And keep the political opinions to yourself, just the facts please.

You tell me what I have said exactly that is facually completely incorrect and not just some viewpoint I may have that you personally disagree with.

Is that too challenging for ya? Because it seems to be for everyone who tries to tear down the argument (my argument) that war in Iraq is wrong, American foreign policy needs review and the facts that support those positions.

I might also remind you that in the newly polarized USA, a great deal of people agree with the stance I take and indeed take the same stance themselves.

Because they are not vocal and don't call people retards as loudly as the crowd you run with, doesn't make it any less true.

TAO YIN
12-09-2004, 09:01 AM
No Kung Lek, No.

Here is what you are saying. "Both America's government and foreign policy suck." I know you have programmed yourself to fell this way, but for farks sake. Even if it is true, what does it matter? Kids in China are still going to hate Japanese people no matter how good America becomes. Some areas of Thailand are still going to be rampant with AIDS. People in Australia are still going to drive their cars, use gas, drink beer, and so on. People in Canada are still going to be right next door to America. Kids who know, in almost every place the world over, are still going to want a new pair of Nikes. Your argument is useless as far as the world is concerned. America is not going to give the world at large any more money than Canada or Britain is.

If you are trying to teach me something, I have learned nothing more from your literal meanings than, you are full of egotistical pride, you hate America, you hate American government, war is bad, and the world is bum fukked because of America only. YOU are being typical; I am being realistic. You say educate the kids. You can educate the kids all you want about love and humility. I try this at times, but usually, whether its an old gong fu student, or a school boy, I end up telling them the bitter truth. You can try to educate people all you want, but in the end of it all, they will find out how things really are.

TAO

Oh and in case you didn't notice...

EVERYTHING IN THIS WORLD IS TYPICAL, INCLUDING YOU AND ME.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 09:02 AM
you obviously haven't picked up the correct pattern, you saying the same ole things and so on and so forth.

Let's start with comparing a couple of hundred convict executions to the hundreds of thousands of deaths of Iraqi citizens. even if you could prove that SOME of those convicts were unjustly executed it still couldn't compare, ever.

But you're own personal hatred for all thngs bush won't let you see anything beyond your jihad. Seriously dude, you say the same ****ed things over and over and over again, and while people keep shooting the crap apart and while they continue to use reason and level headed thinking your own biased, extremely biased outlook, continues to lead you to repeat yourself over and over again. Then when you finally get cornered and can't get yourself out of the argument, it just devolves and get's really stupid. So I just decide to bypass all the in between crap and go straight to the really stupid ending. That way we don't have to hear the same old record player bull day in and day out. The very fact that you can't get focused on anything but Bush shows that your bias is extreme and your view is completely biased. Forest through the trees has been used on you countless times by countless people, because we all see the same freakin patterns everyfreakin time. bush this and bush that. You want to talk about sheep.......

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by Big_Phat_Wong
Kristoffer,

why is it that Muslims throw rocks at ambulances in Malmo and the police do nothing about it? And why do they get away with raping teenage Swedish girls?

Propaganda? Gimme a break. Every bombing, murder, mutilation, stoning, rape, honor killing and wife beating those peaceful Muslims commit can be traced right back to the Quran. You want to see hypocrisy? Look no further than Europeans and their sanctimonious crap.



Yes, you're an idiot. There'a alot of americans on the board that I feel I don't share the same views with, but I still feel I can discuss things with them. You are not one of those ppl.
Discussing something means you can't prove you're point by citing propaganda. It's not only stupid, it also is a waste of my time. But fine, since you are practically begging me to rip you're arguments to pieces - I will.

You are writing about a FOX 'documentary' (or atleast a segment on the FOX ''news''). That show was one of the more racist things I've seen in a while. (one of the anti muslim propaganda you're media is spewing out). I can tell you what was wrong:

* The ambulance was attacked by rocks, but not by muslims. Ambulances get's attacked everywhere, I'm sure you've heard of it before?

* The police does do things about it. that show stated that no police enter that area - lies. That show stated that the whole town was muslim - LIES. Just coz they have black hair don't mean they are muslims. (I could throw statistics in our face if I had any interest). The show stated only muslims perform crimes - lies. (it's actually ALOT more crimes performed by 'native swedes'. How would you explain that? Oh, maybe - lies? Yeah, lies. Or 'facts' as FOX calls them.

* Rapes? Statistics show that most rapes are performed by non religious ppl. (no muslims that is). Again, some more ''facts'' from FOX. Noone 'get's away with raping girls', if you have any proof of this then please share it.

""Propaganda? Gimme a break.""
yeah, go **** yourself

So. Now I want you to tell me where exactly in the Qu'aran it says that bombings, murder, mutilation, stoning, rape, honor killing and wife beating is ok by Islam. Exactly where and what sufas. I remember you did this b4 and then you just linked some idiot who had some veery extreme home-made look on what the qu'aran means. Don't do that again. The fact is there isn't anything in that book that says these things are ok. jihad doesn't mean you go out and kill ppl it means you wage war against youre self, against you're weakness. Why do you think they made starving themself a tradition? Please spare me the trouble.

Fat Wong you are a walking example of racism. Like I said, it's because of ppl like you muslims have it better here. Even though it's probably worse in some places and better in some, I think the whole world just sees you're kind. They can't get over all the hate. It's sad, actually. You are a sad man.

Re-read my last post, specially the last part of it. (if you can read)

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by Kristoffer
You're right. This does happen all over and not just in some places. Maybe I'm generalizing when I say muslims have it better here than over there because the US is pretty big and it's probebly better in some places and worse in other. But even though this article was better than some extreme propaganda I've seen about the subject, the article is also very generalizing itself. (but it's one of the few serious ones atleast) How many countrys are there in Europe? There's alot. And that article touches only subjects from very few of em.

The problems do exist but they look different depending on which country you look at. The attitude aswell. Is it safe to say that these patterns in some countrys can describe the situation of the entire Europe? I would say no.

Also. The fact that everytime Americans wants to discuss muslims or Islam the discussion seems to become a discussion about terrorism. How's that for mistreatment

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 09:18 AM
Lemme put it this way red.

The USA is in a remarkable position to LEAD.
Instead, they (or rather the gov) have chosen to not do that and to use the same tactics as those they oppose to set forth their agenda. iE war, killing, occupation etc etc.

there is a real opportunity to change the world and Bush seems to think this is best done at the end of a barrel of a gun.

With that thinking I completely and totally disagree and I see it as misanthropic in scope and action.

Here's an interesting factoid:

It would cost the entire global community approximately 8 billion dollars to ensure that every single child on the planet can get a space in primary school.

I for one would wholly support any larger movement towards that because i know it's not about giving someone a fish, it's about teaching them how to fish.

Also, it is naive and short sighted of the Bush admin to think they can shove western style democracy down the throats of nations that have never experienced anything like it. Geez, the US can barely get it right it seems, but they are in a position to lead. In my opinion, the are leading in the wrong direction politically and by militaristic incursion.

I understand the need for military incursion along the lines of what's happening in Afghanistan of Sudan or Haiti etc etc. Be it a UN motion or a motion by a smaller group of states with a vested interest in the best interests of the people of those countries.

But Iraq is a monumental failure. A quagmire. There are US generals who know it's awry. there are vocal members of the rep government who do not agree with the policies of the Bush admin and fully reject a lot of what his admin s doing.

One quote coming from a uS general (ret) is that the Iraq fiasco is going to take at the very least 10 years and in the end, teh US army will have to leave anyway. That 10 years is gonna involve having to Draft US citizens. Why? Because of the split you are not going to have enough people to volunteer to do the job.

There are better paths and there are better ways to resolving problems in the middle east. I don't think Bush and teh neo-cons are opperating on anything that even comes close to an agenda of reason.

i'm not saying terrorists and saddam or his ilk are correct either, but I'm saying people are much more responsive to an open hand and reason and being dealt with in a fair way as opposed to being conquered and occupied.

It didn't work out for the roman empire, or any other empire before or after, why do people insist on using the same model of failure after all this time?

red5angel
12-09-2004, 09:19 AM
one thing I don't get:


* The ambulance was attacked by rocks, but not by muslims. Ambulances get's attacked everywhere, I'm sure you've heard of it before?

ambulances getting attacked by rock thorwing people is common in europe?! Why is that? I've never seen that happen here in america, usually the ambulance is there to help someone to the hospital.

ZIM
12-09-2004, 09:24 AM
Originally posted by TAO YIN

Here is what you are saying. "Both America's government and foreign policy suck." I know you have programmed yourself to fell this way, but for farks sake. Even if it is true, what does it matter?
Pete: I've always wondered, what's the devil look like?

Ulysses Everett McGill: Well, there are all manner of lesser imps and demons, Pete, but the great Satan hisself is red and scaly with a bifurcated tail, and he carries a hay fork.

Tommy Johnson: Oh, no. No, sir. He's white, as white as you folks, with empty eyes and a big hollow voice. He likes to travel around with a mean old hound. That's right.


You can educate the kids all you want about love and humility. I try this at times, but usually, whether its an old gong fu student, or a school boy, I end up telling them the bitter truth. You can try to educate people all you want, but in the end of it all, they will find out how things really are.

Substitute KL's call for 'education' with 'indoctrination'- it amounts to the same. Interestingly, he also insists that citizens of the US be exposed the 'proper' media only.
Hatred? Oh no....he wants to *help* you benighted souls....


ambulances getting attacked by rock thorwing people is common in europe?!
Yes. And they're OK with that, Red.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 09:28 AM
Yes. And they're OK with that, Red.

LOL! That's the weird thing is it seems like it's so common the few people who have stated it as such act like it's no big deal. I can see throwing rocks at police cars or vans but ambulances?!

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 09:40 AM
Substitute KL's call for 'education' with 'indoctrination'- it amounts to the same. Interestingly, he also insists that citizens of the US be exposed the 'proper' media only.
Hatred? Oh no....he wants to *help* you benighted souls....

substitute nothing zim, just give the opportunity to get and education and you will see those classrooms fill.

I don't know how you've twisted your mind into the above statement, but ok, that's you.

"proper" media? you slay me. I say "think for yourself" , "go to multiple and variated sources and decide for yourself". I think if anything that is encouragement to take a look at it and form a judgement based on multiple factors including those with which you disagree.

I do find it interesting that you fail to argue with my points and resort to belittling or minimizing the ideas i put forth.

You do understand that one can educate someone without inflciting their political will on them don't you? IE, how to do math, how to speak correctly, how to write in a given language, how to create art, etc etc. Once the people have the tools required for learning on their own, yes they will see certain truths about their lives and the lives of others around them.

But if you are an 8 year old kid who doesn't know any other life than working in a quarry for 5 rupees a day, then you will never know anything different.

I think it would behoove the US and other more fortunate nations to refuse to do business in any way shape or form with countries that have still not resolved their child labour problems and still have low literacy and education rates in their populace.

I can't think of any better leaders for a movement towards that than the G8 countries and the USA in particular dues to it's sheer econmic ability to do so.

wouldn't you agree with that? Do you honestly believe people would reject a decent education and nourishing food from someone they can trust? How can you trust someone who is percieved as responsible for killing your countrymen and oppressing your countrymen.

also, why shift focus to othr nations that are acting in teh same way. Lead by example. there will be those who do not follow of course, but that doesn't mean the effort is wasted.

learning on this type of scale i am talking about is generational and right now, there is a generation or two growing uip in wartorn countries and abject poverty who see the US as the cause of their problem because of the path the US chooses to take in their dealings with their people.

this isn't meant to suggest the isolationist stance, just change the way from guns to books, that's all.

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 09:47 AM
"Yes. And they're OK with that, Red."

:D

Again, don't talk of Europe like it's one or two countrys. Things are alot different from country to country. In swedish cities I know this has happend somethimes. I wouldn't say it's that common though. I was just pointing out yet another 'FOX facts' to Fatty.

edit: And I don't have a good answer to why anyone would do that. It's kinda weird. I know a few weeks ago the busses stopped going through my area because they were shot at and ppl threw stuff at them and robbed the drivers. But the security around the lines were tightend and now it's just like before.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 09:57 AM
substitute nothing zim, just give the opportunity to get and education and you will see those classrooms fill.

you'll also see dictatorships fall and peace become more prolific, but then, that's the cake.....


Come on Kristoffer, you know all you europeans really are the same! ;)

I'd just heard it from several europeans from different countries, I think two from two different o****ries on this thread?

shooting at the buses?! And you guys say WE have problems with violence! :eek:

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 10:04 AM
naah just for some days..

too much GTA maybe

red5angel
12-09-2004, 10:10 AM
lol! All I know is it's not often buses get assaulted by crowds of people. And we don't go nearly as wild over soccer ;)

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 10:26 AM
true that. imagine if guns were legal

;)

red5angel
12-09-2004, 10:27 AM
so they aren't legal and peopl are still shooting at buses?! hehe, I'd like to hear the anti gun peeps on this one

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 10:42 AM
yeah.. but I think it would b alot worse if you could just go to a store and get one. but if I wanted a gun I could get a gun, it's just a matter of contacts.

red5angel
12-09-2004, 10:45 AM
well, the argument goes that if pepole have guns, other people are afraid to use them. For instance, let's say you just got done throwing rocks at an ambulance and a bus comes along. You're all out of rocks but you do have a gun! Now, you know the ambulance drivers are just going to throw rocks back, big deal. However, the bus driver might shoot back and so may his passengers, so you may think twice about opening up with your heaters.
hell in a country where you can own guns maybe the ambulance drivers shoot back for throwing rocks and the rock throwing stopS!!!

see I got it all figured out.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 11:00 AM
violence is a behaviour and not a device.

Kristoffer
12-09-2004, 11:35 AM
red - lofl
but then people who want to attack busses'll just get themself anti tank weapons. how u gonna counter that?!

jun_erh
12-09-2004, 01:34 PM
kung lek illustrating why Canadians are so easy to ignore

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 02:26 PM
jun_erh demonstrates that he can't stand people with any intellect whatsoever. :p

red5angel
12-09-2004, 02:59 PM
But Iraq is a monumental failure.

strange, I didn't realize the whole thing was over with?



Kristoffer - well ultimately you use nuclear weapons. I don't want people shooting at my buses :D
besides, if anti tank weapons being used on buses are a problem in sweden I think you should move, soon, and bring tons of those hot swedish babes with you.

ZIM
12-09-2004, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
substitute nothing zim, just give the opportunity to get and education and you will see those classrooms fill.

I don't know how you've twisted your mind into the above statement, but ok, that's you. Ad Hominem


I do find it interesting that you fail to argue with my points and resort to belittling or minimizing the ideas i put forth.
Here's a surprise: I've never been inerested in your "points" as they're mostly pointless.

Ah. That's just mean. I'll re-phrase: I've never seen much reason to argue with you because you never have an open mind. Making quips about peripheral issues is just plain fun for me, nothing more. You're an entertainer, KL.



You do understand that one can educate someone without inflciting their political will on them don't you? IE, how to do math, how to speak correctly, how to write in a given language, how to create art, etc etc. Once the people have the tools required for learning on their own, yes they will see certain truths about their lives and the lives of others around them.

You do understand that education can be used for more nefarious purposes don't you? You're suggesting the US should educate the world.
Let's say we do it. GWB- who, incidently, does strongly believe in the power of education- sets up schools for readin' 'ritin', and 'rithmetic along with a dose of Democracy 101. Pretty much what I and presumably you, got in our schools.
How long, realistically, would it take for articles to appear in The Nation stating that the US is brainwashing little tykes in Iraq? Cultural Imperialism? How about if they score low on standardized tests? What do you suppose the native-born teachers might have to say about it?

How do you know we don't support education, the rebuilding, re-stocking, etc. of schools? Last I'd heard those little Afgan girls are NOT being killed for going to school anymore.

And one more thing- is it possible to be well-educated and poor?




I can't think of any better leaders for a movement towards that than the G8 countries and the USA in particular dues to it's sheer econmic ability to do so. Yes. We should be penalized for being successful. I agree.
Since we have the clout, we should be everyone's frat pledge.
How about this: You Canadians lead the way.


wouldn't you agree with that? Do you honestly believe people would reject a decent education and nourishing food from someone they can trust? How can you trust someone who is percieved as responsible for killing your countrymen and oppressing your countrymen.
I don't believe *many* people would reject something freely offered to them, but I also note that *many* people will resent their dependency very quickly.
I *do* understand that it is their dependency that you are claiming will be reduced through 'education'. I'm telling you neither 'education' nor independence will occur. Once educated, the majority *leave* places of low economic potential and come- you guessed it- here.
That's why the best known Canadians are in the US. ;)

Nope- best way to encourage independence and truly independent education is to encourage business. Export/import trade, banking, property development, adequate laws to protect business and the securing of private property from the State.

Businessmen are very interested in having an informed populace. THey are not themselves interested in financing education, but there will always be calls for better-educated employees, and they'll always home-grow a workforce if they really need one.

And here's our disconnect: You say 'education' and I fear that 'indoctrinaion' will result. I say 'business' and I'm betting you hear 'exploitation'.

That's why I never bother.


learning on this type of scale i am talking about is generational and right now, there is a generation or two growing uip in wartorn countries and abject poverty who see the US as the cause of their problem because of the path the US chooses to take in their dealings with their people. And it will take yet another generation for them to realize that some of their problems are their own fault.


this isn't meant to suggest the isolationist stance, just change the way from guns to books, that's all. Any books in mind? :p

omarthefish
12-09-2004, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by TAO YIN
KUNG LEK,

HAHAHAHAHA! RACIST! See! Listen to yourself, or should I say, read what you just wrote. Redneck? No, a redneck would say "Iz gonna claw ya fuuking eyes out of ya fukking skull Kung Lek, den Iz gonna fuuk you wife." ...oesn't it? If you figure out world peace, let me know.


Tao


"We are victims of our own perspective."

When I first read this I thought it was satire. :confused:

This thread is one reason why I am in no hurry to return to the US.

Don't forget folks...Red is the same one who was trying you convince us all that judicial use of tactical nuclear weapons is the way to go. "Just nuke 'em and they'll learn...."

Zim.....*sigh*....he surprised me. I thought he was one of the sane thinkers.

Kung Lek,

Keep it up. I haven't got the energy the propoganda is working. Propoganda wise the reds have got nothing on the red white and blues. We are vastly more skillfull, subtle and just generally more effective in our marketing tools.

I've pretty much given up on the US as a democratic nation. I heard that according to the international standards use when we send inpectors out to fledgling democracies to inspect their elections....we failed.

Christopher M
12-09-2004, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
I have yet to see any of the redneck tribe answer anything I've said with an actual answer... You wanna stop terrorism, stop poverty, you wanna stop poverty, educate... In the meantime, educate yourselves... There needs to be a plan for education worldwide and it needs to be overseen by those who are capable. Drop teachers, not bombs... just give the opportunity to get and education and you will see those classrooms fill.

Now hold on. Less than a month ago, in this thread (http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=33513), you claimed that education got in the way of progress and understanding, and rationalized my and MerryPrankster's disagreement with you as resulting from us having too much education.

Have you changed your mind? Or is your position that people have to have the "right amount" of education -- not too much, not too little? Or, as Zim suggests, are you saying people should only have a certain kind of education -- one that reinforces views you happen to agree with? I guess another possibility is that there's no logic underlying your views at all, and you're just typing out whatever seems like a good insult at the time.

My hope is the first alternative, but my guess is the last.

David Jamieson
12-09-2004, 04:34 PM
well, lemme start here.

You're suggesting the US should educate the world.
I am saying the US is in a unique position and has an opportunity to lead.

Canada does do stuff like this. We invest lotsa dollars in direct humanitarian efforts. So does the US, but less so under teh Bush government.

The US doesn't need to be "penalized". But it can serve as a better model. If the politicos keep their own agendas out of providing education, then I don't think it will be interpreted as anything more than what it is. Goodwill.

btw, Canada does a lot of stuff like this...did I already say that? :p

As for me not having an open mind, well I guess you can have whatever opinion you want of me, that's your choice, I disagree though and yes I do oppose some stances because they are ideologically or otherwise unsound in my opinion. I could easily say it is you with the closed mind, buyt then we are just in circles and what is the point?

Education can indeed be nefarious. But again, I reiterate the idea that political agendas stay out of it. Let people make presuppositions so long as the curriculum gets delivered.

I find it almost laughable that you would post all this stuff and then put in "ad hominem" lol. One barb and you write off everything? Besides, I responded to you making a personal assumption.

The best known Candians aren't in the US, they are at home and around the world. We have some comedians and actors and entertainment industry people there who are admittedly well known in that industry, but for the most part, they are best known in American culture moreso than anywhere else in the world, so I can't really agree with that assessment.

Did you know that the schools in afghanistan are heavily laden with people from afghanistan who started them themselves after the threat of war was removed slightly. I would also add Canada has a lotta guys in country there and as well plenty of aid workers who are doing the food and education thang. I would also say the US has citizens there and some soldiers as well, but then, afghanistan has many participants in it's rebuilding.

Many a nations problems have little to do with fault and much to do with access and indeed ignorance and even outside meddling. Many countries also need our help to establish the institutions required to perpetuate the ideals of education, business, free trade, economic and social growth etc etc. It's hard to do with the Afghans for the sheer reaons that most of the people alive there have known nothing but war for all of their lives.

And the books I recomend are the basic skills books and they don't necessarily need to be in english. Language to read and write so communication can be established, mathematics because it is universal really and doens't have an agenda. History and social studies could very well be culturally relevant, but again, I would stick with the very fundamental's because I agree that those particular courses can get bent mighty fast in a war torn nation that still has a lot of grudges.

and yes, it is possible to be well educated and poor. Talk to any college student you find yourself near :p

maybe talk to some of your neighbours?

WinterPalm
12-09-2004, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Big_Phat_Wong
Kristoffer,


Kung Lek,

leave it to you to miss the forest for the trees. After all, the Iraqis were much better off under the regime of Saddam, who killed hundreds of thousands, gassed kids, had women kidnapped by his sons and raped, and locked people up in his torture chambers.


Isn't this just what America was caught doing to Iraqis? Or did they dismiss Abu Garib and Guantanamo Bay?
As to breaking eggs in order to make a cake. Ever notice how it is always those doing the breaking who claim this is a good thing and we never hear the eggs claiming its necessary to break them. I personally don't want to be an egg.:(

Christopher M
12-09-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by omarthefish
I haven't got the energy the propoganda is working.

The propaganda is working because no one opposes it.


I've pretty much given up on the US as a democratic nation.

Right: because the propaganda is working.

Sounds to me like the obvious course of action is to stop endorsing propaganda.

omarthefish
12-09-2004, 05:18 PM
Thanks for the reminder.

I've never endorsed it though. . .er...at least not since I started putting the effort in to get up to speed on geo-poitics and really actively deconstructing the media, following the money etc...

But that was so much **** work just for myself to figure out. Then your faced with being branded as a "wacko", "lefty", "conspiracy theorist" etc... and then the fact that generally it is impossible to change anyones mind who is not actively seeking truth. The tactics for debate aimed at discovery and debate aimed at "victory" are not the same.

Simple ideas have far stronger appeal and are more easily argued than subtle many layered concepts but are not necessarily more often true. Presentation of complexities makes you appear unprincipled, "flip flopping". Trying to figure this stuff out made my head hurt and I really did want someone to jsut put it in simple terms for me. I can see the strong emotional appeal of a wrong headed simplistic arument. Often even the ones presenting the simplistic case are well aware of the complexities but present it as simple for tactical reasons.

I'm going to try and avoid siting all the specific examples of American propoganda, subtle manipulation and general brainwashing on this thread because the instant I point to one all hope of breaking anyone out of their hynotic trance is lost in the new debate over the example and again we are all doing our best impersonations of Socrates' role in "The Clouds".

ZIM
12-09-2004, 05:18 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
I am saying the US is in a unique position and has an opportunity to lead.

Canada does do stuff like this. We invest lotsa dollars in direct humanitarian efforts. So does the US, but less so under teh Bush government.

The US doesn't need to be "penalized". But it can serve as a better model. If the politicos keep their own agendas out of providing education, then I don't think it will be interpreted as anything more than what it is. Goodwill.

btw, Canada does a lot of stuff like this...did I already say that?
Yeah, you said it. No links, though. Would be nice.

You ever think its maybe a contrast of *style*? I mean, we got, what, the Peace Corps, the Export/import bank, the fund for foreign investment, a budget [at $14 billion in 2003] set aside for small businesses in foreign lands that lends on a first-come/first served basis, we pay out massively for aid to many countries, etc. while oher countries do big social work-style programs or send teachers or UN troops.

Also: "Less so under Bush", eh? Sure about that? Seems to me we've just sent an aid package to the Palestinians, one of the many who come to us with their hands out.

Do you mind if we ***** about it every once in awhile? :(



As for me not having an open mind, well I guess you can have whatever opinion you want of me, that's your choice, I disagree though and yes I do oppose some stances because they are ideologically or otherwise unsound in my opinion. I could easily say it is you with the closed mind, buyt then we are just in circles and what is the point?
That's what I was saying: No point, just entertainment.
Why ask why? Have another beer....


Education can indeed be nefarious. But again, I reiterate the idea that political agendas stay out of it. Let people make presuppositions so long as the curriculum gets delivered.
"I must study politics and war, that my sons may have the liberty to study mathematics and philosophy, geography, natural history, and naval architecture, navigation, commerce, and agriculture, in order to give their children a right to study painting, poetry, music, architecture, statuary, tapestry and porcelain."

- John Adams, second President of the United States (1797-1801)

Note the subject order, please. I'm including it as a general note.

To answer you, now: I'll never trust any politico to keep agendas out of anything they touch. To do so is naive.


I find it almost laughable that you would post all this stuff and then put in "ad hominem" lol. One barb and you write off everything? Besides, I responded to you making a personal assumption.
Go ahead and laugh. I kept typing, though, so you're wrong. I was pointing out that the remark was uncalled for and is an ineffective argument style, which you're unfortunately fond of.


The best known Candians aren't in the US, they are at home and around the world. We have some comedians and actors and entertainment industry people there who are admittedly well known in that industry, but for the most part, they are best known in American culture moreso than anywhere else in the world, so I can't really agree with that assessment. We'll do a poll, then. Everyone: Name some Canadians!


Did you know that the schools in afghanistan are heavily laden with people from afghanistan who started them themselves after the threat of war was removed slightly. I would also add Canada has a lotta guys in country there and as well plenty of aid workers who are doing the food and education thang. I would also say the US has citizens there and some soldiers as well, but then, afghanistan has many participants in it's rebuilding. No kidding? Afgans run the schools? After the shooting stopped? And other countries are helping them? Go on, you mad mad fool, you....
...say....are the schools any...better? Or is that a "value judgement"?


Many a nations problems have little to do with fault and much to do with access and indeed ignorance and even outside meddling. Many countries also need our help to establish the institutions required to perpetuate the ideals of education, business, free trade, economic and social growth etc etc. It's hard to do with the Afghans for the sheer reaons that most of the people alive there have known nothing but war for all of their lives.

And the books I recomend are the basic skills books and they don't necessarily need to be in english. Language to read and write so communication can be established, mathematics because it is universal really and doens't have an agenda. History and social studies could very well be culturally relevant, but again, I would stick with the very fundamental's because I agree that those particular courses can get bent mighty fast in a war torn nation that still has a lot of grudges. The first is too broad, since it involves the world. My statement was also, so I'll label it moot until later.

The second point: Not bad, but not yet adequate for good development. You're speaking of primary learning.


Zim.....*sigh*....he surprised me. I thought he was one of the sane thinkers. Barmy, am I?
Hahahahaha

omarthefish
12-09-2004, 05:25 PM
I guess in the context of THIS discussion ...you ARE.

I still think you got grass growing in yer skull but at least your not going on about "the evil empire" and siting [edit] as a legitimate source of news.

...**hrgss** must ...not.... . . site ..specific propoganda sources.....*gasp*. . .

ZIM
12-09-2004, 05:38 PM
So what specifically do you have a problem with? The business angle? My rejection of education as a solution to poverty?

On edit: Hey, which money did you follow? Have you followed the money for "the other side"? eg, terrorists, the UN, etc.

Radhnoti
12-09-2004, 05:42 PM
KL - "Canada does do stuff like this. We invest lotsa dollars in direct humanitarian efforts."

Canada. :rolleyes:

You guys have the luxury of not maintaining an adequate military because of the U.S. Fewer troops than we have police in New York city I've heard?

You guys don't worry about R & D for tons of stuff, for example drugs. You wait for us to invest, take it, develop "your" version of it and sell it for less. Sometimes back to us. Propping up your, mostly failing, "universal healthcare" situation.

You owe the U.S. in ways I can't even imagine economically.

I hearby claim all humanitarian moves you guys make to be a direct result of your association with the U.S. You are welcome.

The other thing that drives me crazy is that you keep talking about U.S. control of information. (That EVIL FCC..or whatever.) And YOUR government won't even let Fox News or much right wing talk radio play up there. Talk about coloring the news...our news minus those outlets would be hopelessly tainted/tilted to the left.

In the end, we red states will drive our SUV's enough to sink New York and California into the sea (not really, alarmist nonsense), and I can only hope that the French section of Canada exists within a geologic depression within Canada when the water rises.
:D ;)

Christopher M
12-09-2004, 06:07 PM
Originally posted by omarthefish
I've never endorsed <propaganda> though.

Is your endorsement of AdBusters unintended, accidental, or ironic then? :confused:

rogue
12-09-2004, 06:21 PM
For gosh sakes KL, why do you have to hijack every thread and turn it into Canadian bashing session. Be kind to the Europeans and let them get a word in. :p

ZIM
12-09-2004, 06:21 PM
Originally posted by Radhnoti

Canada. :rolleyes:


Ok, OK.

But what do you think about "Pottery Classes for Peace"?

omarthefish
12-09-2004, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by ZIM
[B]So what specifically do you have a problem with? The business angle? My rejection of education as a solution to poverty?



Suffering a bit from thread fatigue here. I jumped in when there was already 5 pages to go through so I admit I skimmed. You just made me go back and re-reads your posts more carefully. I guess you still really were one of the more sane voices here...in context and read more slowly you made some valid points. AFAIK even out own public educational system was originally geared more at indoctrination than education. It's a charged word and one that never came up in my text books but that's what was described.

To clarify: America was an still is an immigrant nation. The whole "melting pot" theme that was so stressed in my primary school education, complete with short films, coloring books etc. was bascially created to form a clear national identity. For very practical reasons too. We needed to have a cohesive culture and national identity. THAT is what our primary and to a large degree middle school education does. Irish, British, Germans, Italians, Russians etc. are all taught that they are now simple "Americans". We are taught as small children to identify with the story of Columbus and fighting the British for independance and our trials and tribulations in the wild west regardless of the fact that out "forefathers" may have emmigrated in post 19th century.

So your point there is valid to a degree. I make a distinction between "education" and "schooling" though.


On edit: Hey, which money did you follow? Have you followed the money for "the other side"? eg, terrorists, the UN, etc.

To the degree that I could. However, I have become very lazy about this stuff since my stay in China. When I lived in the states I had a good circle of friends from different parts of the world and most of my political and geographical education has taken place over cappucinos while sharing newspaper articles, essays, personal stories and experiences. I got a lot of tips on the propoganda game from my kid brother and books he lent me. He has ended up being a small business owner selling and renting DVD's and movies in west LA. Him and many of his staff spend WAY to much time decoding media in general. Amazing how many graduate degrees you can find working for 10 bucks and hour as video clerks these days.

Also and oddly international crowd. Proabably half of them have spent time overseas in various countries from Europe to Ghana to southeast asia.

I feel enourmously handicapped out here. I really don't enjoy reading online articles. But more than that, I don't have the peer group to discuss them with.

ZIM
12-09-2004, 06:48 PM
Originally posted by omarthefish
Suffering a bit from thread fatigue here. I jumped in when there was already 5 pages to go through so I admit I skimmed. You just made me go back and re-reads your posts more carefully. I guess you still really were one of the more sane voices here...in context and read more slowly you made some valid points. AFAIK even out own public educational system was originally geared more at indoctrination than education. It's a charged word and one that never came up in my text books but that's what was described.

To clarify: America was an still is an immigrant nation. The whole "melting pot" theme that was so stressed in my primary school education, complete with short films, coloring books etc. was bascially created to form a clear national identity. For very practical reasons too. We needed to have a cohesive culture and national identity. THAT is what our primary and to a large degree middle school education does. Irish, British, Germans, Italians, Russians etc. are all taught that they are now simple "Americans". We are taught as small children to identify with the story of Columbus and fighting the British for independance and our trials and tribulations in the wild west regardless of the fact that out "forefathers" may have emmigrated in post 19th century.

So your point there is valid to a degree. I make a distinction between "education" and "schooling" though.
Maybe surprising, but we're in agreement, albeit not substantially so. I see little difficulty with the melting pot versus the salad bowl concept of America.

Indoctrination? Sure, to a point. A Nation should properly have an awareness of it's own identity. The problems would surface if he US or another Nation/group took it upon itself to run another Nation's school systems, say China's, to relate it to your situation.



To the degree that I could. However, I have become very lazy about this stuff since my stay in China. When I lived in the states I had a good circle of friends from different parts of the world and most of my political and geographical education has taken place over cappucinos while sharing newspaper articles, essays, personal stories and experiences. I got a lot of tips on the propoganda game from my kid brother and books he lent me. He has ended up being a small business owner selling and renting DVD's and movies in west LA. Him and many of his staff spend WAY to much time decoding media in general. Amazing how many graduate degrees you can find working for 10 bucks and hour as video clerks these days.

Also and oddly international crowd. Proabably half of them have spent time overseas in various countries from Europe to Ghana to southeast asia.

I feel enourmously handicapped out here. I really don't enjoy reading online articles. But more than that, I don't have the peer group to discuss them with.
Well, I'm sorry to hear that, though you may have to grudgingly admit you're being spoon-fed information.

If you're interested, the USBIS has a list (http://www.bxa.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/index.htm) of Entities & Denied Persons who cannot be traded with/or are limited in some ways. Its a good jump-off point for tracking why's and wherefore's.

I'm not going to suggest any particular reasoning behind the list, since I'd rather you decide for yourself.

omarthefish
12-09-2004, 07:24 PM
Originally posted by ZIM

Indoctrination? Sure, to a point. A Nation should properly have an awareness of it's own identity. The problems would surface if he US or another Nation/group took it upon itself to run another Nation's school systems, say China's, to relate it to your situation.

I did say "for practical reasons". I made no argument that it was good or bad. Just pointing it out. I know "indoctrination" is a charged word but that is one of the challenges/problems with decoding the media. You have to separate the content from the jusdgement. There is really no difference between the dry, nonbiased, drained of emotional charge common meaning of these 2 words. One mans terrorist is another mans freedom fighter. Unfortunately most are not capable of making that disctinction. Smart leaders take advantage of peoples emotions.



Well, I'm sorry to hear that, though you may have to grudgingly admit you're being spoon-fed information.

edit:

Just opened the link you gave me and remembered......you're right...I WAS being grudingly spoon fed information. .. . . my loving friend with honest concerns. Spoon fed like a baby who doesn't want to eat his vegeatables. That stuff takes REAL efforr to sort through. I forgot how hard it is. My brother, who I mentioned, only turned political when he became a small business owner and then got REALLY savy after his brush with the private police force of the motion picture inudustry. I forget what their called but they brought a lawsuit once and tried to pretend they were real police and search his store.



If you're interested, the USBIS has a list (http://www.bxa.doc.gov/complianceandenforcement/index.htm) of Entities & Denied Persons who cannot be traded with/or are limited in some ways. Its a good jump-off point for tracking why's and wherefore's.

I'm not going to suggest any particular reasoning behind the list, since I'd rather you decide for yourself.

I'll check out the link. Like I said before though....I shamefacedly admit....I have a real hard time sloggin through political stuff online. I like reading magazines and talking to people in person.

I'll still take a look. If I'm going to be living here this long I guess I have to get used to it.

ZIM
12-09-2004, 09:52 PM
Cool. I do wish you luck with it.

You're in a good position to know more about the Chinese & Asian companies we don't export to, BTW.

As to this:
I did say "for practical reasons". I made no argument that it was good or bad. Just pointing it out. Yup. Here we're agreed, in toto.

Big_Phat_Wong
12-09-2004, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Kristoffer
* The ambulance was attacked by rocks, but not by muslims. Ambulances get's attacked everywhere, I'm sure you've heard of it before?


So the rocks just hurled themselves at those ambulances? Wow, those are some mean rocks. Maybe it was just windy. And no, ambulances do *not* get attacked everywhere. Never heard of it happening, even in the roughest barrios of L.A..


The police does do things about it. that show stated that no police enter that area - lies. That show stated that the whole town was muslim - LIES. Just coz they have black hair don't mean they are muslims.

Not the whole town, just a quarter of it. Guess it must be the Chinese hurling rocks then, right?


Statistics show that most rapes are performed by non religious ppl. (no muslims that is). Again, some more ''facts'' from FOX. Noone 'get's away with raping girls', if you have any proof of this then please share it.

What "statistics?" Those spoon-fed to you by your elite media? FYI: I'm Dutch, and have lived in Europe for several years. I've seen how things like this are whitewashed and sugar-coated. Although recently, after the murder of Theo Van Gogh in broad daylight, the Dutch are slowly waking up to what is in their backyard. Sweden, on the other hand, will be the new capitol of Eurabia by 2010 if it continues at this rate.

http://www.aftonbladet.se/vss/nyheter/story/0,2789,529910,00.html

September 09, 2004

Muslims rule major Swedish city

Malmø, Sweden. The police now publicly admit what many Scandinavians have known for a long time: They no longer control the situation in the nations's third largest city. It is effectively ruled by violent gangs of Muslim immigrants. Some of the Muslims have lived in the area of Rosengård, Malmø, for twenty years, and still don't know how to read or write Swedish. Ambulance personnel are attacked by stones or weapons, and refuse to help anybody in the area without police escort. The immigrants also spit at them when they come to help. Recently, an Albanian youth was stabbed by an Arab, and was left bleeding to death on the ground while the ambulance waited for the police to arrive. The police themselves hesitate to enter parts of their own city unless they have several patrols, and need to have guards to watch their cars, otherwise they will be vandalized. "Something drastic has to be done, or much more blood will be spilled" says one of the locals.

http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=180423

Rapes in Sweden as a whole have increased by 17% just since the beginning of 2003, and have had a dramatic increase during the past decade. Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds brutally raped a 13-year-old Swedish girl.




So. Now I want you to tell me where exactly in the Qu'aran it says that bombings, murder, mutilation, stoning, rape, honor killing and wife beating is ok by Islam. Exactly where and what sufas. I remember you did this b4 and then you just linked some idiot who had some veery extreme home-made look on what the qu'aran means. Don't do that again. The fact is there isn't anything in that book that says these things are ok. jihad doesn't mean you go out and kill ppl it means you wage war against youre self, against you're weakness.

Um, no it doesn't. Look at all the Jihadists across the world blatantly murdering people. So I guess the 300 schoolchildren in Beslan who were shot in the back as they ran for their lives were really metaphorical symbols for internal struggle. Sorry, but the body count is too high, so save all your apologist horsesh!t for the uninformed. I have already provided the exact verses and Suras which condone all these things in no uncertain terms. Open up any Quran in the world, and it is right there in black and white. Yet you pretend they don't exist. You truly have your head so far up your a$$ you need to open your mouth to see daylight.

But, since you insist, here you go:

Jihad at-Talab (http://muslim-quotes.netfirms.com/jihad.html)




Fat Wong you are a walking example of racism. Like I said, it's because of ppl like you muslims have it better here.

So Islam is a race now? Holy flying testicles Batman! I must have missed something! :eek:

Typical socialist knee-jerk response, BTW, to point your finger and cry "racism." Maybe in your country, where the new hate speech laws prevent ordinary citizens from speaking the truth, you could get away with such arbitrary nonsense.

You want to talk about sad... the Swedes have completely lost their Viking spirit and duct-taped their b@lls to their a$$holes.

scotty1
12-10-2004, 04:37 AM
Assault on ambulance crews is quite a large problem in some parts of the UK.

Hoax calls to the emergency services, followed by rock throwing when the target turns up, are something I've heard of before.

http://static.highbeam.com/e/eveningnewsedinburghscotland/june042003/nolongeralawuntothemselves/

Little reference there.

Kristoffer
12-10-2004, 05:50 AM
Originally posted by Big_Phat_Wong
So the rocks just hurled themselves at those ambulances? Wow, those are some mean rocks. Maybe it was just windy. And no, ambulances do *not* get attacked everywhere. Never heard of it happening, even in the roughest barrios of L.A..


Yeah crazy rocks ey? and I don't think you have a clue about any barrios anywhere. Like Scotty said, it does happen.


quote:The police does do things about it. that show stated that no police enter that area - lies. That show stated that the whole town was muslim - LIES. Just coz they have black hair don't mean they are muslims.



Not the whole town, just a quarter of it. Guess it must be the Chinese hurling rocks then, right?

No but it's a fact that not all those ppl are muslims. people are throwing stones because that part of that city is ****ed up. people who live there have it pretty **** bad so this is another act of frustration. If one induvidual is an idiot doesn't mean the whole town are are idiots just coz he lives there. ANd just coz some kids turns criminals don't mean the criminal acts can be justified by the qu'ran just coz they have muslim parents. Please step out of you're box man.


Statistics show that most rapes are performed by non religious ppl. (no muslims that is). Again, some more ''facts'' from FOX. Noone 'get's away with raping girls', if you have any proof of this then please share it.

This is still the correct. I think it's funny you try to link to some evening scandal paper wich isn't better than your Fox news and try to make it look like statistics. Your translation from the first link is somewhat right, but somewhat wrong too. The police wont go in with just one car when they know a gang of 50-60 people are fighting, or when someone is shooting. I'm sure police in other countrys have back-ups for serious situations too.


http://www.expressen.se/index.jsp?a=180423

Rapes in Sweden as a whole have increased by 17% just since the beginning of 2003, and have had a dramatic increase during the past decade. Gang rapes, usually involving Muslim immigrant males and native Swedish girls, have become commonplace. Two weeks ago, 5 Kurds brutally raped a 13-year-old Swedish girl.

Man, I dunno if should laugh at you or not. You linked an article from another tabloid wich is about the murder of Anna Lindh one of our politicians. The article then goes ahead and says crimes are up, and that rapes have increased by 17 %. Nowehere does it say anything about gang rapes involving Muslims. Nowhere does it say anything about kurds raping 13 year-olds. >Dude if you're gonna link somethig then please make sure you know what it is. I even know where you found this too. It's funny how many people I've debated with around here who take **** they find on nazi sites for facts. Are you one? Or are you just another racist who are to afraid to openly admit your political views?


jihad doesn't mean you go out and kill ppl it means you wage war against youre self, against you're weakness.



Um, no it doesn't. Look at all the Jihadists across the world blatantly murdering people. So I guess the 300 schoolchildren in Beslan who were shot in the back as they ran for their lives were really metaphorical symbols for internal struggle. Sorry, but the body count is too high, so save all your apologist horsesh!t for the uninformed. I have already provided the exact verses and Suras which condone all these things in no uncertain terms. Open up any Quran in the world, and it is right there in black and white. Yet you pretend they don't exist. You truly have your head so far up your a$$ you need to open your mouth to see daylight.

Yeah it does. The bible says something about how man and woman should be united. That doesn't mean I (if I followed this religion) should walk out and execute every gay ppl. If I do that I have interpretated the bible wrong. It doesn't mean that since you can interpretate it that way, justifies it. It doesn't mean all miljon other followers are interpritating it the same way either. get you're head out your ass you've never read the qu'ran you just link to these people interpritating the text in the most extreme way possible. I could link you to the Atlantian Qi Gong that doesn't mean it's legit.

Jihad means to strive. Every single one of the beleivers I've talked too have descibred jihad in a simmillar way. How many have you talked to Fat Wong? It's about the strive and fight to live accordingly to Islam, to strive for the right to follow Islam. It doesn't have to mean an armed battle/war like so many have interpritated it as. Even when it does it's about defence. Since you didn't link anything from the Qu'ran, I will-

here are two different translations from 2:190:

"Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors." - Zettersteens

"Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors." - Yussuf Ali

The term jihad has always been translated as 'holy war'. Something wich is a bit misleading. The people who use their religion to manipulate their followers are many, look at the middle east, look at you're president. Powerfull leaders who use religion as their ways are often dangerous and also gives the rest of the real followers of the religion a bad name. You are the one who in the last discussion wanted to kick out all muslims from the states, and put a ban on Islam. That's pretty extremist views IMO.

..and if you came to Sthlm or Malmö I'd show you some Viking Spirit, if you really wants too

Kristoffer
12-10-2004, 05:58 AM
Red - so when I'm out of rocks and I start shooting at the ambulace, a buss driver drops his tactical nuke on me! I just can't win this :D

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 06:10 AM
Now hold on. Less than a month ago, in this thread, you claimed that education got in the way of progress and understanding, and rationalized my and MerryPrankster's disagreement with you as resulting from us having too much education.

wow and out of context piece of obfuscation. I said nothing of the sort and you sir are a ******* for making go through that entire thread to read it to find out that is exactly what I didn't say.

Now I know why you resort to posting links to 1000 page manifestos! It makes it seem as if your point is supported. INstead it is a form of lying. shame on your Chris.
:rolleyes:

For anyone else that wants to read what Chris is referring to, go to the last few pages of the thread he has linked to.

It is where I am talking about how uni students use fresh found book learning and seek to apply it immediately without properly digesting it and ergo, many of their arguments are flimsy and even sophism or misguided interpretations.

This is of course radically different from my position here in the thread which is supportive of primary school for all children to help raise them up out of whatever bondage they find themselves in.

If you support Child Labour, If you support the ideologies that perpetuate it, if your country does business with countries that have not resolved their child labourt issues etc then therein lies the problem.

Honestly Chris, I'm surprised that you would use such a tactic. Where's that good old circular logic you like tossing around to take conversations no where because you disagree? :p

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 06:31 AM
Utimately, we need to move away from the roman model left to us and still in use after thousands of years.


Zim, to find out what Canada is into, what our military is doing, more on teh Canadian development agency etc etc, just use Google. It's pretty abundant info really.

And try not to quote to many out of date thinkers piggy backing onto ancient roman ideals such as Adams did. I think pretty much anything he said could be found in the Pliny's or Ciceros or other literattis. After all, that was most if not all of the education the people from 200 years ago had.

This last century has been the worst that mankind has ever seen in all his history. Idon't know why it is such a stretch to see that. Maybe it has to do with peoples innate self absorption, short lifespans or just general ignorance.

the world hasn't gotten better, it has gotten worse. And shoving democracy down the throats of people who would look at it in the same way a chimpanzee would look at a machine gun doesn't seem to be the wisest way to me. But that's my opinion.

Yes I would like to see a wolrd where people were responsible for their own actions and bore that responsibility with all teh dignity they could muster as a human. We leave far too much in the hands of our political leaders in democratic countries and that needs to be changed.

there still is not enough accountability and far too much finger pointing. The thing we call democracy needs to evolve again beyond the antiquated and barely working overly corrupt model taht it is now.

For pete's sake, we still don't have an elected senate in Canada and the seated US gov can stack the judiciary with appointed judges to the supreme court! Checks and balances seem to only apply to personal banking these days.

Ok, as for the Euros, They have been bonding, are getting stronger as a conglameration of nations than they ever were as singular entities.

I would say they are an economic and miltary force to be reckoned with and by virtue of only existing make the phrase "The US is the last superpower" laughable and untrue (mind you, I think China is a superpower both militarily and economically so I don't know why that (the superpower monopoly thing) little nibblet of corn keeps making the rounds in western media).

Anyway, yay Europe! The unification of it has been a long time coming and I hope it continues. At least there is progress being made.

ZIM
12-10-2004, 07:08 AM
Originally posted by Kung Lek

Zim, to find out what Canada is into, what our military is doing, more on teh Canadian development agency etc etc, just use Google. It's pretty abundant info really.

And try not to quote to many out of date thinkers piggy backing onto ancient roman ideals such as Adams did. I think pretty much anything he said could be found in the Pliny's or Ciceros or other literattis. After all, that was most if not all of the education the people from 200 years ago had.

This last century has been the worst that mankind has ever seen in all his history. Idon't know why it is such a stretch to see that. Maybe it has to do with peoples innate self absorption, short lifespans or just general ignorance.

the world hasn't gotten better, it has gotten worse. And shoving democracy down the throats of people who would look at it in the same way a chimpanzee would look at a machine gun doesn't seem to be the wisest way to me. But that's my opinion.

Yes I would like to see a wolrd where people were responsible for their own actions and bore that responsibility with all teh dignity they could muster as a human. We leave far too much in the hands of our political leaders in democratic countries and that needs to be changed.

Taking these in order:
1] OK- I will do that and thank you.

2] I disagree with that. You may not like the quote, but it contained a degree of sense WRT what order of learning is needed in a stable society out of necessity. I thought it fairly self-evident and not at all "Roman".

3] I can understand this thought. The 20th C. was nasty and I can understand fears of this 21s C. becoming worse. I've said previously that a 3 year old could sum it all up: "Everything is nasty".
With your supposition, I feel you were getting closer to an answer, BTW, and you should develop it better, into a cogent idea. Not to ba a smartass, but I would gently note that a knowledge of history- including quotes from forebears- is the only way around it. You are engaging in some of that when you mention Romans, too.

3] Hey, Watch out who you're calling chimpanzees. Those guys will cut your head off.

4] "Yes I would like to see a wolrd where people were responsible for their own actions and bore that responsibility with all teh dignity they could muster as a human."
Another quote: "All work provides men with dignity" -MLK
I think Malcolm X had a few things to say about it, too.

=============
Now to the main subject:

I found a video from Dutch TV on the same thing we're discussing.
Here. (http://66.195.17.52/~vmarks/archive/)

It's a large .wmv file, so save it, then watch. In Dutch & English.

HupGerk
12-10-2004, 07:16 AM
First of all,

Please note that the translations and information provided by Big_Phat_Wong is incorrect and has been altered by him to support his views.

Big_Phat_Wong,

You seem to think you know a lot about Sweden? I live in Skane and work in Malmo, and while there are severe problems with a high crime rate in the Rosengard area, it cannot be attributed to any one ethnic group.
I also noticed in your profile that you claim to be a student of Hsing-I? Funny choice of system for someone with your attitude, especially since your posts here are a direct insult to the founders of your system. Who is your Sifu and what does he think of your attitude?
As for your other comments about Sweden and my fellow countrymen, I would very much like to meet you face to face next time you visit our country (I do assume that you travel here often since you are such an expert?). Feel free to PM me with your travel plan.


Tao Yin,

Hey big brother, hope that all is well in Cheng Duaaahh! I don’t see how you could spell it out more clearly than you did in your post and still some refuse to get it…guess there is no hope for mankind…or parts of it, hahaha! I’ll catch you later online, have a good one!


Kristoffer,

Fy fan vilket pucko BFW verkar vara…men han ar inte ens vard luften han andas…bara en liten fegis som leker stor pojke bakom tangentbordet…


HG

scotty1
12-10-2004, 08:12 AM
"Fy fan vilket pucko BFW verkar vara"

Wow, that's cold man. :)

red5angel
12-10-2004, 08:22 AM
Isn't this just what America was caught doing to Iraqis? Or did they dismiss Abu Garib and Guantanamo Bay?

LOL! And the retards go marching on! What I want winterpalm and KL is for you two idiots to explain to me how either of your examples holds anything to the fact that hundreds of thousands of people lost their lives to Saddams' regime in a progrom? Feel free to step outside the narrow minded views you've taken and look at it from a different angle for a change. You're opinions might then garner some respect.



I am saying the US is in a unique position and has an opportunity to lead.

we are leading, isn't that the point of all your *****ing and moaning?


If I do that I have interpretated the bible wrong

this is the problem with religion and where religious fanatcis come from. They interpret their particular "bible" wrong and decide to perpetrate aweful acts. Right now most of the muslim world is close to being a third world country, education is low, exposure to other cultures is low. Now if you go into the Quran can find all sorts of versus taht could be misinterpreted to maen acts of violence. The very word "jihad" stirs up controversy, even within the muslim world.


so when I'm out of rocks and I start shooting at the ambulace, a buss driver drops his tactical nuke on me! I just can't win this

that's what happens when you mees with bus drivers!


the world hasn't gotten better, it has gotten worse. And shoving democracy down the throats of people who would look at it in the same way a chimpanzee would look at a machine gun doesn't seem to be the wisest way to me. But that's my opinion.

That's right KL, cause who wouldn't want to have a part in controlling their own destiny :rolleyes: You just keep going lower and lower and lower......

red5angel
12-10-2004, 08:23 AM
Fy fan vilket pucko BFW verkar vara…men han ar inte ens vard luften han andas…bara en liten fegis som leker stor pojke bakom tangentbordet…

HEY! We'll have none of your devil talk here!!!!

scotty1
12-10-2004, 09:11 AM
"You're opinions might then garner some respect."

I would like to publicly state that KL's arguments seem pretty good to me. You seem to spend more time attacking him than his arguments Red.

"we are leading, isn't that the point of all your *****ing and moaning?"

Sorry, you're not leading. The bits of the world that don't actively hate the US are pretty scathing about it in a lot of respects, it seems to me.

Who are you leading?

"That's right KL, cause who wouldn't want to have a part in controlling their own destiny You just keep going lower and lower and lower......"

I thik the point is that you can't force democracy on people by invading their country, even if (and this is a big if) you did it in their best interests. They will soon hate you for killing their civilians, like it or not.

red5angel
12-10-2004, 09:33 AM
KL parrots the same conspiracy theories over and over again, he doesn't deserve or respect anything less then ricicule.


Sorry, you're not leading. The bits of the world that don't actively hate the US are pretty scathing about it in a lot of respects, it seems to me.

blah blah blah, what country were your from again? :rolleyes: Seems everyone on this board not in the US spouts that very same crap. Seems like you guys need to get over yourselves.

scotty1
12-10-2004, 09:43 AM
Red wtf are you talking about? For a guy that bandys around the word 'retard' such a lot in descriptions of others you say some pretty f*cking stupid sh!t.

Need to get over ourselves why? We are in a unique position, ie. not in the US, to know what people NOT in the US think of you.

pretty simple huh? Think about it for a minute, maybe you'll understand.

What I said is a fact among a significant portion of the worlds population.

My points were clear. Just like KL's.

How about attacking my points next time, huh? Instead of me. Because all you're doing is making yourself look like a d!ck with no arguing skills.

So I'll ask you again, who are you leading?

FuXnDajenariht
12-10-2004, 11:18 AM
geeez. i tried to resist but wtf? didn't we argue all this same bs in the last political thread? and then when people started actually giving outside sources and logical reasons for what they were saying the conversation completely died off. no one wanted to give a straight answer to any one elses real questions.

are you actually trying to debate this or is it just an excuse to pull your own nonsense opinions out of ur ass and attack the people you dont like? the ones calling everyone else close minded are the ones making the least amount of sense. :rolleyes:

red5angel
12-10-2004, 11:28 AM
What I said is a fact among a significant portion of the worlds population


that statement right there is snough to rule you out of the rest of this discussion for good. See if you can figure out why.






FuXnDajenariht

I'm beyond bothering to try to make sense to these guys. It's a broken record all over again, and this very thread pops up from time to time. It's lame and these guys won't stop bleaboring the points they keep trying to smash so indelicately into the faces of those who don't agree with them. Rarley an actual discussion breaks out but usually it's a couple of so called "open minded" liberals who spend most of their time preaching and prattling and not really discussing.

ZIM
12-10-2004, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by scotty1

Need to get over ourselves why? We are in a unique position, ie. not in the US, to know what people NOT in the US think of you.

pretty simple huh? Think about it for a minute, maybe you'll understand.

What I said is a fact among a significant portion of the worlds population.
Well now, here's where we might just get some traction!

I've been thinking for awhile now about this aspect of world affairs, and here is my conclusion:

During the Cold War the oppo's were the US and the USSR, right? Now that the USSR is gone and the EU is not quite up to snuff as an oppo yet [if ever. sorry] the default oppo "super-power" has become...

...World Opinion.

And this is what we keep re-hashing without ever bringing it out in the open. This is why someone can say:
didn't we argue all this same bs in the last political thread? and then when people started actually giving outside sources and logical reasons for what they were saying the conversation completely died off. no one wanted to give a straight answer to any one elses real questions.

FuXnDajenariht
12-10-2004, 05:13 PM
question is why do you think we need an opponent in the first place? why is the world boiled down to some big competition between countries? maybe you never heard how many times we came close to being annihilated by accidental missile activation. you'd think we'd learn a lesson from the cold war. the loss being 1000 times worse than our non existant victory. anyway thats not the point....

we keep rehashing because this is a forum. made to debate about things like this. but if no one can put their bias and ego aside for 2 seconds its pointless. i dont see why everyone keeps trying to find reasons why their country is better than any other, instead of taking a long hard look at their own situation and being brutally honest with themselves. criticizing your own government doesn't mean you hate your country. it means you care enough that you want it to be the best that it can be. better than good enough..... your real enemies are usually the very politicians that you elect to represent you. few people are even qualified to criticize themselves let alone millions of people 1000's of miles away.

omarthefish
12-10-2004, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by FuXnDajenariht
[B]question is why do you think we need an opponent in the first place?

He may think we do...I dunno for sure. But regardless of his personal views, I didn't notice where the post said we DID need an opponent. I don't think we need one. I suspect Zim doesn't think we need one.

In fact, I think:


... why is the world boiled down to some big competition between countries?

Is an excellent NON-rhetorical question worth exploring.


maybe you never heard how many times we came close to being annihilated by accidental missile activation. you'd think we'd learn a lesson from the cold war.

I think we learned several. But we're still digesting the results. One thing I've learned from posting about China here and there on political threads is that the cold war is not entirely over.

Christopher M
12-10-2004, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
This is of course radically different from my position here...

Um, that was exactly my point. Radically different? Yes: directly contradictory. That your response was to call me names answers my question though.

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 06:48 PM
unfortunate that intonation is not detectable in a written form.

the jab was most jocular i assure you, but are you really so thin skinned? or just being jocular yourself

ZIM
12-10-2004, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by omarthefish
He may think we do...I dunno for sure. But regardless of his personal views, I didn't notice where the post said we DID need an opponent. I don't think we need one. I suspect Zim doesn't think we need one.
No, I don't think that- but I note that other countries [France leading the way] say we do.

American hegemony and counterbalance, all that.

Its telling, maybe, that France- while they call for this counterbalance- will not declare themselves to be that opponent. But they will goad others- China, Russia, the UN, the EU- as an agent provocateur.

From where I sit, its their problem. From the European POV, maybe France has a point. But some of it- not all- strikes me as variations on "I can pee further than you".

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 06:56 PM
France is cool man.

Only neo-cons don't like France...:p

Christopher M
12-10-2004, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
Only neo-cons don't like France...

I hear Ivorians aren't too keen on it either.

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 07:02 PM
I hear Ivorians aren't too keen on it either.

probably not after the ***** slap france gave em for attacking their base and killing their civs and sojas without warning.

ZIM
12-10-2004, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
France is cool man.

Only neo-cons don't like France...:p My comment had nothing to do with France's "coolness", or "Neocons" for that matter.

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 07:09 PM
again, the levity was lost. lol

Christopher M
12-10-2004, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by ZIM
No, I don't think that- but I note that other countries [France leading the way] say we do.

Yes, they really do. America must be castrated!

David Jamieson
12-10-2004, 07:46 PM
Well, in all honesty there is a lot of anti bushisms that occur in Canada, but agreed that France is highly critical of the US from it's high offices.

In Canada it's more of the citizenry and our Government is much more dealable withable. :D

The Group in Ottawa toppling the Bush statue ala Saddam was embarrasing to some extent, but there it was. I guess this is similar to making fun of some of the fringe dems (actually don't know what they are but they don't like bush) that was prevalent in the lead up the election. I recall seeing lots of anti "liberal" films where th dog and pony freak show would be in attendance at the rally. People like that would be physically escorted out of a rep gathering. :p

Big_Phat_Wong
12-11-2004, 01:41 AM
Originally posted by HupGerk
First of all,

Please note that the translations and information provided by Big_Phat_Wong is incorrect and has been altered by him to support his views.

Big_Phat_Wong,

You seem to think you know a lot about Sweden? I live in Skane and work in Malmo, and while there are severe problems with a high crime rate in the Rosengard area, it cannot be attributed to any one ethnic group.
I also noticed in your profile that you claim to be a student of Hsing-I? Funny choice of system for someone with your attitude, especially since your posts here are a direct insult to the founders of your system. Who is your Sifu and what does he think of your attitude?
As for your other comments about Sweden and my fellow countrymen, I would very much like to meet you face to face next time you visit our country (I do assume that you travel here often since you are such an expert?). Feel free to PM me with your travel plan.


Tao Yin,

Hey big brother, hope that all is well in Cheng Duaaahh! I don’t see how you could spell it out more clearly than you did in your post and still some refuse to get it…guess there is no hope for mankind…or parts of it, hahaha! I’ll catch you later online, have a good one!


Kristoffer,

Fy fan vilket pucko BFW verkar vara…men han ar inte ens vard luften han andas…bara en liten fegis som leker stor pojke bakom tangentbordet…


HG


Don't get mad, I'm only statin my opinion. This is a public BBS, and so everybody is free to talk as much hack as they want. The fact is, I see no reason why those news stories would have been fabricated. if your media is as honest as you think they are, then why would they just pull these things out of their asses?

Sorry dude, I'm cash-poor at the moment. Maybe if I ever make it to Holland I'll stop by. :D

omarthefish
12-11-2004, 05:06 AM
Zim,

You a **** ******* for sending me to that .gov site. I've put my head on the desk and fallen asleep twice now trying to make sense of it.

You hinted that I should look at who's banned but I got distracted by the fact that we have "anti-boycot" laws on the books and a list of companies it is illegal to boycot.

Kristoffer
12-11-2004, 06:54 AM
HupGerk

Ja verkligen. Vi har diskuterat det här förut men man kommer aldrig nån vart. Kände bara för att sänka han förgått. Tack för stödet

MonkeySlap Too
12-11-2004, 08:40 AM
Kung Lek said:

"probably not after the ***** slap france gave em for attacking their base and killing their civs and sojas without warning."

Reply:
Typical of you to call it a btchslap rather than an overreaction and unrequired imperialist assault on a soverign nation - which I'm pretty sure is what you would say if the U.S. took that action...

David Jamieson
12-11-2004, 09:07 AM
Typical of you to call it a btchslap rather than an overreaction and unrequired imperialist assault on a soverign nation - which I'm pretty sure is what you would say if the U.S. took that action...

why do you assume i would say that?

It depends on scope doesn't it?

are you comparing apples to oranges?

ie france ***** slap to ivorian government vs dropping 138,000 soja in country, destroying the place and killing 100,000 Iraqis in the process , possibly more.

If you can't see the difference you perhaps need to re-evaluate how you assess these things and perhaps how you choose to make assumptions about what I say.

It's interesting that there are so many who say america is misunderstood and we should be open minded about the pro-war stance on Iraq. And that if we aren't open to the kind of destruction and the level of it, then we are liberal idiots or what have you. Very interesting indeed. I wonder who really has the closed mind and who has the open one. :rolleyes:

btw, Clintons bombing runs into Sudan were a ***** slap as well and I would call them that. What W's doing is tantamount to criminal aggression in my opinion and oh yeah, most of the rest of the world's opinion as well.

regards

ZIM
12-11-2004, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by omarthefish
Zim,

You a **** ******* for sending me to that .gov site. I've put my head on the desk and fallen asleep twice now trying to make sense of it.

You hinted that I should look at who's banned but I got distracted by the fact that we have "anti-boycot" laws on the books and a list of companies it is illegal to boycot. Uh. OK. Sorry.

How about some Foreign Service officer blogs? A least with them they'll write out their opinions on stuff.

http://dailydemarche.blogspot.com/
[right wing]

http://theforeignservice.blogspot.com/
[neutral, mainstream]

You might be able to write the authors if you want.

jun_erh
12-11-2004, 11:54 AM
Hey Kung Lek. Your press sure kissed our presidnts ass. Are they always such *****'s like that? Like drooling over him to his face and then writing lame crap when he leaves? It must be hard being from a country that doesn't matter.

David Jamieson
12-11-2004, 02:20 PM
lol, that was lame! :p

to quote one of our leading newsmen, Rex Murphy (a famous canadian who isn't a comedian raking in 20 million a movie :P )

Canada can tell the Americans they're wrong anytime it wants to, loudly, clearly, forcefully, and without qualification. And they can do exactly the same with us. Countries, like adults, have the privilege, which is often the responsibility, to make differences known vividly and without compunction.

politically niceties and politeness are the Canadian way. lol

Christopher M
12-11-2004, 02:25 PM
The more you guys rag on Canada, the closer I get to saying something like "You know, Kung Lek is right..."

And that's a really scary thought. So back off, eh? Ya hosers.

David Jamieson
12-11-2004, 02:35 PM
For more on Canada, the Polar Bear, Arctic Fox and ptarmigan:

Contact Hinterland who's who (http://canadainternational.gc.ca/CI/FAQ-en.htm)

:p

jun_erh
12-11-2004, 02:40 PM
I hate to break it to you guys, but Rex Murphy isn't famous.

back off? never

David Jamieson
12-11-2004, 03:03 PM
Uh...In Canada, I hate to break it to you, but Rex is pretty much a household name. lol

what's your standard for fame? Like that guy from denmark who won the world idol contest? :p

More famous Canadians Americans hardly know of (or know they are Canadian:

Pierre Trudeau
Rick Mercer
John A McDonald
Cathy Jones
Ed Bradley (hee hee)
Norman Bethune
Frederick Banting
Tommy Douglas
Louis Riel
Robbie Robertson
Billy Bishop
Laura Secord
Sarah Mclachlan
Nelly Furtado
Pam Anderson
Raymond Burr
Carrie Ann Moss
Joshua Jackson
Michael J Fox
Jason priestly
Bryan Adams
Matthew Good
Nicholas Lea
Swollen Members
Ronnie Hawkins
Lester B Pearson
Stanley Knowles
Sir Sam Steel
....

anyway, I could continue, I'm just backfilling for the remark made earlier to list off some famous Canadians. there are of course literally hundreds if not thousands who are know well at home and internationally.

ZIM
12-11-2004, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by Christopher M
The more you guys rag on Canada, the closer I get to saying something like "You know, Kung Lek is right..."

And that's a really scary thought. So back off, eh? Ya hosers. I blame America.

[Just trying to shift the hate a little. C'mon you Mother Theresa Canucks can take it, right? Sure...]

And anyway, you guys never really apologized for Bryan Adams.
anyway, I could continue, I'm just backfilling for the remark made earlier to list off some famous Canadians. there are of course literally hundreds if not thousands who are know well at home and internationally. Well, it takes a Canadian to know one. :D

rogue
12-11-2004, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Kung Lek
Uh...In Canada, I hate to break it to you, but Rex is pretty much a household name. lol

what's your standard for fame? Like that guy from denmark who won the world idol contest? :p

More famous Canadians Americans hardly know of (or know they are Canadian:

Pierre Trudeau
Rick Mercer
John A McDonald
Cathy Jones
Ed Bradley (hee hee)
Norman Bethune
Frederick Banting
Tommy Douglas
Louis Riel
Robbie Robertson
Billy Bishop
Laura Secord
Sarah Mclachlan
Nelly Furtado
Pam Anderson
Raymond Burr
Carrie Ann Moss
Joshua Jackson
Michael J Fox
Jason priestly
Bryan Adams
Matthew Good
Nicholas Lea
Swollen Members
Ronnie Hawkins
Lester B Pearson
Stanley Knowles
Sir Sam Steel
....

anyway, I could continue, I'm just backfilling for the remark made earlier to list off some famous Canadians. there are of course literally hundreds if not thousands who are know well at home and internationally.

Ya know I never had anything against Canada until I read that list. You know this thread was about Europe and the **** Canucks have to hijack it. One more time for KL, Canada is not a European country. I understand you may be confused and think that you have driven to France when you go to Quebec, but you haven't. You are still in North America. On a side note if you drive to the South Bronx you are not in the Dominican Republic.

ZIM
12-11-2004, 09:03 PM
Ok. lessee...

Pierre Trudeau does those Doonesbury strips.

Laura Secord was that woman that told the brits in Ontario that the Yanks were invading in 1812, so she's not living- disqualified.

Ed Bradley, Bryan Adams [shudder], Michael Fox, and like 10 ohers live in the US- disqualified.

The rest you pulled out of the phone book, right?

And you skipped Kirk anyway, you phony.

Oh yeah- and I noticed Michael Fox is *still* waiting for the Canadian Health System to help a brotha out. ;)

jun_erh
12-12-2004, 07:05 AM
I repeat rex whatever isn't famous. A household name in just in Canada is a nobody in the real world.

So when is Canada going to send some troops to the Sudan?

SimonM
12-12-2004, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
just out of curiosity what eurpoean country lost 3000 of it's innocent citizens to a terrorist attack? :rolleyes:

Over the years most of them have. The USA just has an ocean between it and most of it's enemies so it took them longer to get attacked.

Welcome to the world, population everybody.

Let's hope that you can keep some shread of your freedom so far I'm not so hopeful on that scope.

SimonM
12-12-2004, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
: My better idea - peace on earth .

And how does STARTING A WAR IN IRAQ AND CAUSING ALL KINDS OF FORMERLY SEDATE IRAQUIS TO BECOME TERRORISTS cause peace on earth.

Oh wait, you meant the peace of the grave, we have been over this before red5.

And please, oh please stop milking the personal tragedy of those poor schmoes in the WTC for your own political agenda. The rest of the world just thinks of that as excessively tacky.

rogue
12-12-2004, 05:34 PM
Wow Simon that is a dumb statement. If I'm going to retain my crown as King Dumba$$ I better try harder.

SimonM
12-12-2004, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by sayloc
Kung leK

The reason we may send jobs to another country is because guys like you are at work posting on forums on company time. Get back to work.


Hear that Kung Lek, YOU ARE THE REASON THAT NAFTA DRAINS JOBS TO MEXICO.

<lmfao>:D :D :D :D :D :cool:

This is the prevailing attitude of the side that won the election down south? Ye gods North America has gotten stupid. But then, people watch Bill O'Rielly.

It's sad when the best news show in the USA is a satirical comedy: the Daily Show.

SimonM
12-12-2004, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by red5angel
it happens everytime he opens his trap about politics. Stupidity, racism and hatred are all that come out.

Racism?

Do you mean against the American "race" because that isn't a race, it's a nationality.

Do you mean the redneck "race" because that is more a lifestyle than a race.

Do you mean against "whites" because that is not a race it's a skin tone and besides which I as a caucasian have never felt offended by KL.

Who exactly is KL racist agaist?

SimonM
12-12-2004, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by red5angel


But you're own personal hatred for all thngs bush won't let you see anything beyond your jihad.

Ooooohhhh!!!! He's a racist against Bush!

Are you suggesting that Bush is in a race all of his own?

Man, you really just don't even think about what you say at all do you?

BTW: Jihad means struggle, not holy war, I imagine that is not what you intended.

SimonM
12-12-2004, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by rogue
Wow Simon that is a dumb statement. If I'm going to retain my crown as King Dumba$$ I better try harder.

It's hard to rebutt your smear when I don't know which statement you refer to.

Christopher M
12-12-2004, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by SimonM
NAFTA DRAINS JOBS TO MEXICO.

*lol*/*sigh* @ non-American employment being called "draining jobs." And people wonder why wealth distribution is so uneven.

scotty1
12-13-2004, 12:42 AM
Hi Simon, welcome aboard :D

Right, Red5:

"that statement right there is snough to rule you out of the rest of this discussion for good. See if you can figure out why."

Sorry, I can't. I'm guessing you mean it's not a *fact* that a significant proportion of the world doesn't like the US.

No, it's not a *fact*. Don't pick hairs just for the sake of it. It is obvious, and Zim seems to agree with me, and that statement actually took the thread off in another direction for a while. So thanks for playing, come back soon.

And that was a pretty see-through way to duck my question too.

That's twice now.

TAO YIN
12-13-2004, 01:09 AM
Well, at least Kung Lek mentioned Pam, but he forgot Shyla though.

David Jamieson
12-13-2004, 06:24 AM
TY- the exercise was to make a list fo Canadians who are famous, but not really well known to the US.

The point being that the US only seems to see itself in teh mirror and the Canadians it knows are only the ones within it's borders and industries.

This is what I was pointing at. I would've included Shania Twain. I think this is who you are refering to as "Shyla"? But Shania is easily as Famous as Celine Dion and ergo, didn't make the cut. :p

I did throw a couple of freebies in there for ya though.

TAO YIN
12-13-2004, 07:12 AM
Kung, what the heell??????????????????

NO, I was not referring to her!

Try harder, think porn...

David Jamieson
12-13-2004, 07:26 AM
sorry, ya lost me.

not a big porn aficianado. :(

ZIM
12-13-2004, 08:40 AM
Originally posted by scotty1

No, it's not a *fact*. Don't pick hairs just for the sake of it. It is obvious, and Zim seems to agree with me, and that statement actually took the thread off in another direction for a while. So thanks for playing, come back soon.
Not exactly.
I agree that the rest of the world disagreeing with US policy is a phenomenon, but I have no way of knowing if that is a 'majority of world opinion' or merely the loudest complainers [and maybe you don't either].

I suspect that it's mostly the media establishments of the western European countries coupled with an admittedly large leftist population, but that in no way means a 'majority of the world'.

Secondly. and more important, I attach no moral authority or approval to that phenomenon, since I vehemently disagree with it. I simply note that it exists for reasons of its own.

On edit:
One more point-
This doesn't mean I don't listen to some of the criticisms. What I do is this: I exclude the obvious 'Mad Hatters' and try to hear the solid complaints. When I do this- and compare the real meat to the terroriss' rhetoric- I find it very thin gruel at best.

It is a significant voice, I'll give you that, but it has its own interests which boil down [IMHO] to the very same ones the US is constantly accused of: Hegemony, money, oil, influence, and hatred.