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The Willow Sword
01-21-2005, 09:46 AM
http://www.1421.tv/the_book.asp


very interesting stuff,,i thought it might be a good topic in here.


peace,,TWS

Oso
01-21-2005, 09:52 AM
yep, saw that book a while ago. it's on the list

MasterKiller
01-21-2005, 09:59 AM
I think I saw that documentary on PBS about 2 months ago. It was like 2 A.M. and i was dozing, so I don't remember too much.

SimonM
01-21-2005, 10:07 AM
Eventually I'll get around to reading that one.

tug
01-21-2005, 10:17 AM
Very interesting. I saw this topic on "In Search Of" w/Nimoy when I was a kid and ever since then I've been hooked.

The Willow Sword
01-21-2005, 10:52 AM
i am still trying to get a feeling of whether or not the chinese seaman really ever made it as far as the east coast of Northamerica. because there are sure as hell no account of them through native ameircan oral history,,or in mexico and central america,,now we know that african nations and phonecian sailors made it as far as the central american coast(lots of evidence on that). but really nothing on the east coast or central america,, i mean you would think that if the fleets were cargo ships that they would have left some things behind and been collected by the coastal tribes,,but nothing. so i am a tad skeptical,,not that the chinese ever sailed to fer regoins,,but that they made it to N. America,,C. america etc.


peace,,TWS

ShaolinTiger00
01-21-2005, 10:54 AM
I wonder if it's anything like China's first astronaut? :rolleyes:

Sim Koning
01-21-2005, 11:53 AM
the evidence, and its been around for a while, is the statues that have been found in central america that look very chinese. They have asian faces and clothing I believe.

Indestructible
01-21-2005, 12:06 PM
World Maps from ancient China.

http://www.modernbookshop.com/wzq/maps/worldmaps2.htm

Babelfish to translate.

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

The Willow Sword
01-21-2005, 12:23 PM
the evidence, and its been around for a while, is the statues that have been found in central america that look very chinese. They have asian faces and clothing I believe


nope those are believed to be phonecian and african,,which arrived in central america and had an influence on the toltecs way before 1400's.they did have almond shaped eyes but then again so do the maya(and modern day central americans) i am not dimsissing a correlation in genetics to asiatic peoples and that of the central americans or native N american tribes,,still though,no definitive proof or artifacts to suggest chinese. it would be cool to find some though. i know those statues you are talking about,,they are not oriental.

Peace,,TWS

mickey
01-21-2005, 01:11 PM
Greetings,

I see someone has been reading up on ancient African history. Those who are interested in checking out more should read:

1) They Came Before Columbus --Ivan Van Sertima

2) The African Presence in Early Asia -- Ivan Van Sertima

3) Black Jade: The African Presence in the Ancient East -- James E. Brunson.

I have long believed that the African/Native American relations predated slavery and that the only thing that shocked the Native Americans during the time of the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was that the Africans came in chains. So, their support of Africans escaping and accepting them into their families may not have been because of a common foe, but, rather, in support of an old friend.

ShaolinTiger00: You believe that the Chinese astronaut thing was a hoax?

mickey

Shaolinlueb
01-21-2005, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by mickey
Greetings,

I see someone has been reading up on ancient African history. Those who are interested in checking out more should read:

1) They Came Before Columbus --Ivan Van Sertima

2) The African Presence in Early Asia -- Ivan Van Sertima

3) Black Jade: The African Presence in the Ancient East -- James E. Brunson.

I have long believed that the African/Native American relations predated slavery and that the only thing that shocked the Native Americans during the time of the Trans-Atlantic Slave trade was that the Africans came in chains. So, their support of Africans escaping and accepting them into their families may not have been because of a common foe, but, rather, in support of an old friend.

ShaolinTiger00: You believe that the Chinese astronaut thing was a hoax?

mickey

i jsut saw something on learning channel, all life as we know it came from africa. first wave went through india down to australia, then 2nd wave through india, china, alaska, into nrth america and south america. so technically all our ancestors are from africa.

PangQuan
01-21-2005, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Shaolinlueb
i jsut saw something on learning channel, all life as we know it came from africa. first wave went through india down to australia, then 2nd wave through india, china, alaska, into nrth america and south america. so technically all our ancestors are from africa.

I have read arcticles which involve this theory, but at the same time this is still a theory. Just as the theory of Pangea, in which case there was no africa, we all came from the same land which at some point split due to volcanic sizemic activity, creating plates out of our once whole crust. Its all based on speculation with minimum evidence.

Gowgee
01-21-2005, 03:00 PM
I just picked up the book and haven't got into it yet, but I remember my high school history teacher telling us there was historical evidence to say the first foreign traders to reach Australia and trade with its natives were Chinese. Of course, it wasn't called Australia until Europeans invaded and pillaged it ;)

Oso
01-21-2005, 03:05 PM
I have read arcticles which involve this theory, but at the same time this is still a theory. Just as the theory of Pangea, in which case there was no africa, we all came from the same land which at some point split due to volcanic sizemic activity, creating plates out of our once whole crust. Its all based on speculation with minimum evidence.

indeed but your two examples: the splitting of a supposed world continent and the rise of anything manlike are epochs apart.

PangQuan
01-21-2005, 03:42 PM
That is correct, yet based on evolutionary chains, our ansestors would have been spread among the world on all of the pieces of pangea, which unless africa was the only place for these lifeforms to survive we would have evolved all over. Im not saying I believe this, its just a theory. Heck we could have come from aliens for all I know, I wont really know until i die, and still maybe then I wont find out the truth. But as for chinese making it to the americas, I dont doubt it. Anything is possible. Like Mr. Muhamad Ali sayed "Impossible is nothing" its all fun to speculate historical situations like this but the fact remains that we dont really know for a fact. Because if we did there would not be any conflicts of opinions.

Liokault
01-22-2005, 07:32 AM
Its a very good book.

To me, your all taking a very USA centric view of it. Its not only about the possability that the Chinses discovered the americas, its about how far ahead the Chinese were from every body else in the period concerned.

The most interesting part of the book is the section where the Chinese 'empire' totaly turns in on its self and decides that nothing out side of China is worth anything (not totaly wrongly).....no more expiditions.

Till the British got the Chinese addicted on opium (that was the only way the west had a product worth anything to the Chinese) they were the world super powers, and probably will be again.

mickey
01-22-2005, 08:11 AM
Liokault,

Your first paragraph would be true if the Moors did not exist. The Moors also made it to the Americas long before Columbus. They were incredible seafaring people.

mickey

BM2
01-22-2005, 08:39 AM
Has there been any DNA evidence that African sailors travelled to the Americas?
The first wave out of Africa that was posted earlier in this thread does support the DNA study that I read. The native people of Australia,by the way they are oriental, and the people of sub-Sahara Africa are at opposite ends of the DNA family. In fact there are more differences between the Africans than in anyone else. European's DNA had less than 1000 common ancestors and are more closely related to the orientals than Africans.
One of what was thought to be a pure DNA line in Africa was of the bush people. Their language has clicks and whistles which was thought to be a more primitive language. When the DNA was examined it was found to contain Arab strains.
Now this next one at first was a surprise, then it made sense. The Jewish DNA was most closely related to the people of Syria and Palestine. After all, Abraham was their father and they had lived within close proximity of each other.

mickey
01-22-2005, 11:14 AM
Hello BM2

There is ample evidence that Africans did arrive in Equador. This is a fact not widely publicized. The Mexicans still remember the ancient Africans.

That Africans arrived in the Americas on their own should not be such a shock to anyone who DARES to read more than what is required of them.

To classify Aboriginal Australians as "oriental" is just lame even by DNA standards.

Here's a kicker for you: when the Europeans came to the New World (I cannot remember the source but the knowledge is still with me), they found a nation of Indians who spoke perfect Welsh!

Another: The Hopi Indians acknowledge a connection with the Tibetans. They acknowledge strong correlations in esoteric knowledge as well as similar words used to describe certain things.

I accept this info. It does not upset my world at all for me to go screaming for a DNA test.


mickey

The Willow Sword
01-22-2005, 12:37 PM
when the Europeans came to the New World (I cannot remember the source but the knowledge is still with me), they found a nation of Indians who spoke perfect Welsh!

it is said that the sea fareing celtic tribes came as far as the east coast of america and migrated inward following the major riverways(ohio river) and merely vanished or were assimilated in to the indian tribes, evidence to suggest this are ancient celtic ruins along the highland banks of the ohio river in the kentucky indiana area.
ALSO,,serpent mound in ohio was never claimed by the native tribes as anything they ever created,,in fact it was told that serpent mound was there BEFORE the indian tribes migrated in to that area( i would think that serpent mound would be a marker that the early seafareing celts made to prove that they had been there)


The Hopi Indians acknowledge a connection with the Tibetans. They acknowledge strong correlations in esoteric knowledge as well as similar words used to describe certain things.

This has to do with the Hopi prophecies that tell that in the future that a race from the east would come into thier lives and bring knowledge and a kinship. the prophecy said that this race would be wearing red hats. the prophecies were created hundreds of years ago.
recently some tibetan monks had come to arizona to visit the hopi because Their OWN meditations had guided them there,,and when the monks arrived(wearing their ceremonial garb which included a red sombrero looking hat) the hopis were not at all suprised and they had a council meeting and exhanged ideas and philosophies, and developed a relationship from then on.


Peace,,TWS

mickey
01-22-2005, 02:13 PM
TWS,

Thank you for the addditional knowledge. Such is the purpose of forums like this.

mickey

BM2
01-22-2005, 03:07 PM
Aboriginal Australians would be classified as what race?

SimonM
01-22-2005, 03:09 PM
Human

mickey
01-22-2005, 04:24 PM
Bravo, SimonM. Bravo.



mickey

bustr
01-22-2005, 11:51 PM
The carvings of Maze and Aloe Vera at Rosslyn chapel which was finished in the 1480s indicate that some Europeans were in the Americas before Columbus.

Columbus knew exactly where he was going. What his purpose was might remain a mystery but it definitely wasn't a Western route to India.

Check out the first discoverers of America below:

http://www.pip.com.au/~paceman/ABORIGINE.html

joedoe
01-23-2005, 02:07 PM
Australian Aborigines are supposed to be very distantly related to the Indians of the Asian subcontinent.

red5angel
01-24-2005, 08:15 AM
They have asian faces and clothing I believe.

I talked to a Korean guy for about a half hour I thought was native american once. Ther'es sometimes not alot of difference between the two.




So, their support of Africans escaping and accepting them into their families may not have been because of a common foe, but, rather, in support of an old friend.

LOL, you must mean except for the native americans who also had slaves?

SimonM
01-24-2005, 08:22 AM
Originally posted by mickey
Bravo, SimonM. Bravo.



mickey

Me mum is an anthropologist, at our house Race ALWAYS means species and not ethnicity.

Kymus
01-24-2005, 11:26 AM
I have a ...erm.. borrowed copy of this doccumentary that just happens to be uh.. on my er.. hard drive. So if anyone would like to borrow a copy as well, I'd be willing to seed it on bittorrent . :D

Mutant
01-24-2005, 01:00 PM
I've heard this is a good book and i intend to read it as soon as I get a chance.

Sim Koning
01-24-2005, 10:04 PM
That is correct, yet based on evolutionary chains, our ansestors would have been spread among the world on all of the pieces of pangea, which unless africa was the only place for these lifeforms to survive we would have evolved all over. Im not saying I believe this, its just a theory. Heck we could have come from aliens for all I know, I wont really know until i die, and still maybe then I wont find out the truth. But as for chinese making it to the americas, I dont doubt it. Anything is possible. Like Mr. Muhamad Ali sayed "Impossible is nothing" its all fun to speculate historical situations like this but the fact remains that we dont really know for a fact. Because if we did there would not be any conflicts of opinions.


You need to do a little more reading on geology and paleontology. I find it frustrating when people reach conclusions about something they know little or nothing about.


The supercontinent of pangea existed during the Triassic 225 million years ago and broke up during the Jurassic, which was over 150 million years ago. Dinosaurs were roaming the earth and the closest thing to a human being were small furry mammals. The continent didn't start taking the shape we see today until about 65 million years ago or later. When humans evolved about 2 million years ago the earth looked pretty much the same as it does today. The spreading of continents takes millions and millions of years.

You also must understand the difference between a theory and speculation. Evolution for example is NOT just speculation and guess work. Most scientists consider it to be fact in the practical sense. It is a theory in the same way that the existance of a electron is a theory, though we see electricity everyday, we know how it works, but nobody has actually seen an electron. we know electrons exist, because a huge amount of evidence supports their existence. This is what a theory is to science, it is something that is often treated as what most people would consider fact.

By no means (unless you are a fundamentalist) does any of these theories exclude the existance of God. I myself am a Christian, but I don't believe the creation of the universe was just a big magic act. So please don't think I'm trying to explain away any religious beliefs.

Eddie
01-25-2005, 01:03 AM
Couple of years back, I posted something along this lines. Down here in South Africa, they now discovered evidence that the Chinese were actually the first, followed by Hindu Indians, and only much later, the Portuguese and the Dutch. Only thing is, the time line seems a little confusing. Sources vary, but it seems pretty long ago.

I recently listened to a talk ( by an Chinese native) who said that the Chinese actually taught the Africans how to make those Round, grass type huts which were used by most tribes. It seems a bit far fetched, but at this point I’m open to most ideas.

“Has there been any DNA evidence that African sailors travelled to the Americas?”

Not to sure about this. Africa was pretty untamed until very recently, and not many suggestions to this idea of yours. To have travelled to the Americas, they needed a big ship. Unless they had Arabian help (in North Western Africa), I doubt that the people of those years were able to build these ships. Not enough evidence in Africa to suggest this. A possibility would be that they may have had some help from the Portuguese, but that should have been documented.

“One of what was thought to be a pure DNA line in Africa was of the bush people. Their language has clicks and whistles which was thought to be a more primitive language. When the DNA was examined it was found to contain Arab strains.”

Wonder when and on whom they tested these DNA tests. The Bushman tribe originally came from the North of Africa, migrated and settled down in the South at the Kalahari dessert Their language is as you said, but through the last few hundred years, pretty much most of them has been “mixed” with various other races. Many African languages has these click sounds, and Athropology scholars would tell you that these tribes are all related in some way (Not only Bushman, also other African tribes). One of the last so called “original “tribes of bushmen that are still around these days, don’t even speak that old language anymore. They speak my native language, and adopted allot of Dutch culture, as many of them mixed with the Dutch settlers and their descendants. But Arabs have been in Africa for ages, and many African historians belief that Arabs even come from Africa, but that’s another story. I don’t really belief that DNA evidence proof anything on this topic.

“Now this next one at first was a surprise, then it made sense. The Jewish DNA was most closely related to the people of Syria and Palestine. After all, Abraham was their father and they had lived within close proximity of each other.”

Not surprising at all. Judaism is religion, the people pretty much were all from around the middle east. If Im not mistaken, wasn’t Jesus’ mother a Palestinian?

DNA evidence means very little in this topic. There are enough other evidence around which suggest that the world once fared the seas looking for new places. Often, all we need to do is open our eyes and our minds and just look.

Are there people on here who subscribe to the “Arian invasion” theory? In a nutshell the belief is that the Arians travelled from Eastern Europe through India etc, into China. Some sources even suggest these people were the founders of Chinese martial arts.

Cool topic. Going to try to get the book at the end of the month. January is usually a bit tight financially for us (after Christmas and the holidays).

Eddie

MasterKiller
01-25-2005, 06:16 AM
For a very gppd article on EXACTLY how human migration occured, check out the November 2004 issue of Discover magazine. They trace the Y chromosome throughout the world and show exactly how humans spread from Africa to the rest of the world using, yes, DNA evidence.

I'll try to scan it tonight to show you the map.

The Willow Sword
01-25-2005, 06:33 AM
I actually saw a show on PBS about that very thing. as i remember the DNA testing was inconclusive and turned up a dead end,,but it DID suggest certain migration patterns. however do not quote me 100% as it has been awhile since i have seen the documentary.

I would like to think that cultures such as the Asiatic ones were able to sail as far as the americas and have an influence on the peoples there. there are similarities in philosphies and such between asian and Native american,,,,now if in the really ancient times asiatic peoples migrated across the bering straights down in to what is N america,,i can grok the "connection" that the red peoples share with the Yellow. and from all accounts these migrations really did take place,,but there are still unanswered questions and so far no real concrete evidence suggests anything,,it is all speculation,,but the theories are believeable i think because they stem from common sense.

what i find skeptical about this 1421 story are the timelines. there may have been early(and i mean early) journeys to the Americas by the chinese. but it seems as though there really wasnt that great of an influence,,or perhaps the native N and S americans drove them away(just speculating here). i dont know to tell you the truth.
more later,,PEACE,,TWS

ShaolinTiger00
01-25-2005, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by mickey

ShaolinTiger00: You believe that the Chinese astronaut thing was a hoax?

mickey [/B]

There is no doubt. and if there was even a remote chance, "Mythbusters" crushed that.

tug
01-25-2005, 12:34 PM
Chinese astronauts? Can someone post a link? My server sux.

mickey
01-25-2005, 01:44 PM
ShaolinTiger00,

I had the same feeling about it. Since it seemed that everyone was "going" for it, it seemed a rare occurence that there was someone else who could separate the bull from its schlitz.

mickey