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xingyiman
10-15-2000, 05:53 PM
I guess this question had to be asked sooner or later. How well do you all think Martial Arts like Xingyiquan and Baguazhang would fare against grappling styles like JuJitsu?? Or, more appropriatly, what kind of strategies would these two internal arts use against BJJ fighters?? What would they employ if actually got taken to the ground?? What are some of the types of throws found in Xingyiquan's animal forms???

10-15-2000, 11:24 PM
Xingyiquan and Baguazhang would do very well. BJJ is in no way a super system I say that to anyone anytime, Pedro Suar and his students in Salt Lake City found that "Monkey steals the Peach"(in their case it was monkey steals the tiny, shriveled raisins) was an excellent technique to escape the gruard postition, as well as making their ears and noses pull toys till they bleed. BJJ is a sport system, has been defeated and was defeated a number of times in Brazil, it was never really tested under anything goes conditions, if you did win the entire gracie clan threatend you with great physical harm or worse. The Gracie fad/lie is finally being shown to be what it really was, a sorely needed wake up call to all the TKD, Kenpo and eclectic crap sytles that infected and defined to the super populace of American society on what half baked, watered down, lack of substance martial arts are. It is a great sport fighting system, you can lay on somebody for hours, no weapons, no multiple people, no eyes, ears or groin, ripped or bitting, its great. But the old adage is "You fight like you train", you train to win a match you play sports, you train to survive a fight, well its high stakes. higher level of brutality and cunning are needed. BJJ trains you to close the gap, roll around on the ground, find a good defensive counter spot and work techniques, My Xingyiquan taught close the gap by ripping their testicles away from the body and while crushing them like grapes to continously pound the attacker's head till its was a greasy red fountain streaming out of his neck, do you see the difrence in thinking?
As for grappling I can talk for a long time on Baguazhang, it really depends on the form and methods your teacher knows. As far as XIngyiquan I feel it safe to name very common forms where grappling can be found. PiQuan/Metal fist, Monkey, Tiger, Dragon, Fighting Chicken, Turtle, Eagle/Bear. All the other forms have more Qinna(Chin na) in them, the fore mentioned ones are the meat of the Chinese wrestling wealth of techniques in XIngyiquan.

Arterial spray is nature's liquid fertilizer.

xingyiman
10-16-2000, 12:31 AM
BaguaTiger your such a Psycho, but I like that! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You always have a good response.

What Grappling/Chinna techniques does Xingyiquan's Water Lizard form(Turtle,Tuo Xing) have specifically?? I hear it concentrates on developing "wrapping energy". Can You delve more on the Turtle form?

10-17-2000, 08:27 PM
In all honesty I was born with an extra Y cromozone, so I'm XYY instead of XY for the genetic Male make up.(This was a medical diagonsis from the 80s, I've heard they my have debunked the XYY recently) The only thing that really does is make me a bit more aggersive and my thinking a little difrent in the way I approach situatuions. Fortunately for me, I still have a healthy degree of control and an ethical framework, but its something I have to deal with alot. My father beat me and my mom on a daily basis for a long number of years when I was younger, until about 13 when I was able to start hitting back, so even today I have a somewhat resentment towards males in general, my first teacher was a true xingyiquan man and taught that mental images and focused and often brutal intentions will help produce more power, he did this so I could have a chance against my father and protecting my mother, also since I lived in a minority section of the city I wasn't really liked by other kids and was often a target. The images I use now come from that, but in all seriousness I'm really and pretty laid back guy, I think it comes out difrent, I just have a developed combat mind set and the images help in that.

As for the turtle, my Shirfu had a saying, "Turtle is slow, the slowest, always last to the fight, but his animals friends are always glad he came".

This means that to really use turtle techniques the attacker muct be damaged and beaten first, softend up some. The Turtle I know developes more subtle but very strong twisting and grinding skill, used for full body throws and twisting the attackers spine and or crushing knee and elbow joints. The turtle also teaches "all body weapon" idea. Using the back, and hips and you butt and shoulders and forearms as defensive/offensive weapons.
Another plus is the turtle is an awesome internal power builder, do it as slow as you can for 30-60 min a day and in about a years time you body will feel like it as liquid metal running beneath it.

Arterial spray is nature's liquid fertilizer.

phantom
10-17-2000, 09:05 PM
Bagua Tiger, I do not mean to offend you or your art, because I also really like Hsing-I. However, in an issue of Inside kung fu, Dr. Richard chin, a sifu of Jow Ga in New York, claimed that a hsing-I guy once told him, "If anyone grabs me, I could torque my body in such a way that it would be impossible for anybody to keep the hold on me." Well, Dr. chin then grapped the Hsing-I guy's arm. The Hsing-I guy tried torquing his body many times, yet he could not break free of the hold. Dr. Chin explained that it was because when a Jow Ga person grabs an opponent, the grab cuts off the chi energy at the point where the person is grabbed, thus making the opponent unable to escape. How would you explain this?

10-18-2000, 02:33 AM
Wow, sounds like this Shifu is highly skilled. I'm unfamiliar with Jow Gar, but it sounds like a good technique!

Arterial spray is nature's liquid fertilizer.

LaoGo
10-18-2000, 08:06 AM
Sounds like bunk to me. I have never met a person who could grag the arm of an internal art exponent andt cut off their chi. The whole thing sounds shake to me.

8stepsifu
10-28-2000, 01:04 AM
I believe it. Also just keeping an eagle grip with a loose relaxed arm and body make it hard for a person to escape your grasp.

8Step Sifu

bean curd
10-28-2000, 05:33 AM
i suppose if someone makes a statement like this xing yi player, they have to have the ability to back up the words.

there are so many ways that you can negate a chin na, you could write a book on it, but i am sure that everyone remembers the sun lu tang story, where a great martial expert from japan, came over and challenged sun lu tang to a fight.

sun replied, that the expert could put him in a hold and also have one of his hands put behind his back.

this was done, and the went to ground, sun then hit the japanese player in the chest/stomach, causeing him to spit blood.

maybe there are two differences in the same situations stated.

1. sun did not focus purely on the chin na, and
2. sun knew his abilities, and was more than capable of winning.

it like the old saying, "how good a swimmer are you???", "i'm very good, because i know how far i can swim!",

regards

les paul
10-30-2000, 05:34 AM
It's Reality check time....... "hello" Is anybody out there..... I know I'm going to take a lot of heat for this, but..... Based on the way most current Internal artist train I'd put all my money on a grappler. I think most internal artist greatly overestimate themselves and their art.

From what I've seen "most" Xingyiquan, Taichiquan and Bagua are fake.

Push Hands isn't sparring, either are all those two-man sets. Do you think dancing is learning how to fight? Most Chinese Internal practitioners are out of shape and have been hoodwinked into thinking they are really learning a martial art. Are you training with full contact? "I bet the answer is no". Do you take it to the floor when things go wrong? "I bet the answer is no again". Be advised "GRAPPLERS DO"! I study Aikido, Judo and "some" Taichiquan. I was only taught the long form of the Yang style and found it to be a "joke" (because they taught no applications). I've searched for a "real" Taichiquan Sifu and haven't found one (yet).

Please realize doing the form is not learning how to defend yourself. Only with a lot of expermentation have I began to see the properties of the Taichiquan("yes" under full contact conditions in Judo and Aikido (i.e. Randori classes). I see a lot of merit to Taichiquan and Chinese Internal arts, it's to bad very few people know them.

If you think I'm wrong by saying that most Taichiquan, Xingyi and Bagua are fake go down to the local Grappler dojo and hang out. They usally got an open night. Go see for yourself. Try out your Taichiquan or Xingyi/Bagua. I would advise you just to watch, but if you do decide to participate then...Better know how to fall real good and don't forget to tap the mat real loud! Good luck.... "most of you are going to need it..."


signed....

"Not impressed with the current state of Internal arts"

Paul from Michigan

bean curd
10-30-2000, 08:51 AM
don't call me spanky, your right i won't i'll just call you wanky.

thats about all your comment is worth.

les paul
10-30-2000, 02:49 PM
I can't believe I'm being called "wanky" by a guy that goes by the name "Bean curd". ha ha ha ha

Come on give me some substance!

If you think I'm wrong tell me why. Are you seeing something different than I am?
Is the state if Internal arts different in your area?

"nooooooo I think not!"

If your practicing a legit art you have no need to be insecure.

(right?)

Change my mind through debate not name calling. I admitted to seeing merit in Taichiquan in my last post. Also, I'm not against Internal arts. I'm against the way they are practised. I believe the internal arts are greatly defficient because of a lack of real training.....nuff said

Paul from Michigan

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

10-31-2000, 06:23 AM
Paul,

You sound like myself a couple years ago. I started out studying judo and while stationed overseas in the Marine Corps I began to study wing tsun which I'm still practicing(daily!).

While taking leave in San Diego I had the opportunity to observe a Hsing-i class given by ShrFu Mike Patterson. What I saw totally changed my mind in regard to the internal arts. Do yourself a favor and check out his sight at www.hsing-i.com (http://www.hsing-i.com) and go to the kuoshu section. The circuit workouts and sparring sessions were as intense as any workouts I had witnessed in various Bangkok tai gyms.

Mind you these were his full contact fighters but they were the majority of the students I observed. If I were fortunate enough to live in SoCal that's where I would be training! I don't know about the quality of internal arts in Michigan but the hsing-i as practiced like this is definately an effective art.

Later /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

les paul
10-31-2000, 03:47 PM
Jarhd 30

I agree....

I've heard about Sifu(Shrfu) Mike Patterson and have seen his website. I believe he's legit. I believe there are others who are also the "real deal", "but very very few in numbers".

I think that's were the problem lies. I live in the greater Detroit area and for the life of me I can't find a legit Internal art. I respect all martial arts and it ticks me off to see people dumbing down an art to the point it's a mere dance. That's why I fired off in my first post.

If Detroit in a "microcosm" of the state of internal arts throughout America (I believe it is) then when someone asks "how Xingyi would do against a grappler" they should get the truth.
Both the Japanese and Korean striking art have fundemently change over the past 10 years because of grappler arts like jujitsu, wrestling and judo. The grappler styles have always been there, but the exchange of information and different-style compitition hasn't. I don't think these grappler styles are better than any other style (all have their pros and cons) but I think in the way they train that makes them better than most. I think internal artist don't train with the same intesity as other arts. It's not the art that's defective it's most of the paractioners. That is what I was trying to get accross in my first post.

Paul from Michigan

phantom
10-31-2000, 09:32 PM
8step sifu, I just remembered that Sifu Chin claimed that it was an Eagle Claw grab in the Jow Ga style which the Hsing-I guy could not escape. Perhaps there is a connection between jow ga and 8 step mantis?

bean curd
11-03-2000, 11:46 AM
hi spanky its beany, reading more of your posts, the impression i am getting is that you really don't have a beef with internal arts, but the perception you have of the way the players of these arts are being trained.

each to their own i say, i see no reason why there should be an "apologetic", for the internal arts.


they have proven their worth, on many levels for too long, with many great players in every century and decade, like all the arts.

if only you could find a teacher or player, that could show you the art in the light you wish to see it , then you would understand the levels the internal arts have.

you have many highly respected teachers in america, so i'm sure someone could point you in the direction you want to go.

not everything is to do with fighting.

oh and on the name "bean curd", there is an old story in which wong fei hung (great hung gar player) used the description of "bean curd", so its from there i took the name.

again mate, if you know the story then you'll understand what the meaning , just like i'm trying to say to you, find a good teacher, and your understand the internals.

les paul
11-04-2000, 03:28 AM
Bean curd

I hear it and understand it.

Your correct in your assesment that I don't disrespect the Internal arts, just the people in my area. Your also right when you wrote that "not" everybody does Internal arts for martial reasons. Probably in twenty years or more I'll be doing Taichi for health also. ("this idea didn't come to me when I was shooting my mouth off in the first post"). In the Metro Detriot area of Michigan(the most populated area of the state) I have yet to see a real Internal artist. Internal artist in this area of the United States seem to have very "poor" martial skills. I'll keep looking because Internal arts "are" intriguing to me, but I don't put much stock in finding a real teacher.

I'm always trying to find somebody to fill my cup........(understand?)

Paul from Michigan

count
11-04-2000, 03:24 PM
Hey Spanky,
Sorry to hear Detroit is so sparse with good Chinese Martial Arts. Also sorry I can't recommend anyone closer than Chicago where I grew up. Wai Lun Choi can teach you what you want to know. He teaches Bagua, Lio Ho Pa Fa, Hsing-I, Lama Crane, and Northern Shaolin at his school but he will be the first one to admit when other training is a benefit. Reference his training in Thai Boxing, Judo, Silat and god know what else.
If you are ever in the Los Angeles Area you can look us up practicing with Jason Tsou in the Monterey Park area. But there are 2 or 3 other great teachers around here.
You will find that internal arts like Tai Chi Chuan or Hsing-I have their share of grappling techniques as well. It even occurs to me that "push hands" may be the very training to help a tai chi fighter learn how to deal with grapplers since you are always in contact with your opponent and it teaches you to feel your opponents center. There are many aspects of learning any Chinese martial arts. I think in dealing with a grappler I would look at some of the techniques you can find in Shuai Chiao (Chinese Wrestling). Although, any of the arts stands well on it's own and when practiced well they demonstrate incredible power.
By the way, I think your cup is full. Half liquid and half air.

count
11-04-2000, 03:44 PM
PS Just joking about the Spanky!
w

Valraven
11-05-2000, 09:01 PM
BaguaTiger, I am from Salt Lake City. Most people on this forum know I am a Shuai-jiao guy.
But I am also a student of Pedro Sauer. I know for a fact that no one has ever came to the school to spar and has not been submitted or put to sleep.
I'm not saying its impossible, I'm saying it has never happened.
I am certain that you never came to the school. If you
did, I am certain you left humbled. If I am wrong
please feel free to stop by anytime so I can experience this technique first hand. I welcome the opurtunity to touch hands with a real Bagua Master.
Valraven

[This message was edited by Valraven on 11-06-00 at 02:12 PM.]

Paul DiMarino
11-06-2000, 06:26 PM
BaguaTiger,

When and where did you fight Pedro and/or his students?


Val,

Do you remember an Australian guy named Dean training with you this summer. I train with him here in Boston, but he was in Salt Lake for most of the summer... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Valraven
11-07-2000, 06:26 PM
Paul,
No I don't recall ever meeting him.
I am there three times per week and teach a kids class twice pre week, so if he trained with any real frequency I should have seen him.
We also have a school in Provo (about 50 miles to the South) so if he trained there I would have never met him.

I do have a question for you, however. My company
is sending me to Boston fow a few days in December. I was thinking of doing a private with
Master Yang Jing Ming. Any suggestions??
Valraven-

Paul DiMarino
11-07-2000, 08:02 PM
sent an e-mail to the address in your profile

mysteri
07-12-2001, 09:04 PM
the jow ga style consisits of hung ga, choy ga, and bak sil lum. some of our basic hand techniques are borrowed from the mantis system, are but are modified. it is true that when we grab, it is usually in eagle claw fashion. jow ga only uses what works. train hard!

In a fight you shouldn't stick to principles; they should stick to you.

phantom
07-12-2001, 09:21 PM
Thanks, Mysteri. Peace. :D

TheBigToad
07-13-2001, 01:08 AM
BAGUATIGER is a tainted screen name and I no longer use that moniker. I had business out of state and country and had roommates that liked to start trouble at my expense, I'm not mad some of it was pretty funny and the stories where only half truth. So of it got me trouble with MaoShan and BlackTaoist but has since then been straightened out.

As for Pedor Saur this did not happen in Salt Lake. Way back in 1995 or 1996 he came and did a criminally high priced seminar at a gym called Park Center in Boise, ID. Because of my relationship with a few people at that gym I was allowed to participate for free.

I'm unaware if it was just Pedro Saur or him and his students that came. Park Center had a large "grappling" venue of people so people who called themselves students of his might not really have been outside of seminars. This again was in 96 when the grappling frenzy was still around.

When I was told that this is how a street fight worked and all else I had been taught was a lie, I applied a testicle lift to brake free of the guard. In my experience a street fight was nothing like a UFC competition, maybe else where its diffrent.

This fueled some serious tempers and when grappling again with someone else who was throwing swings at me full bore I did a variation of a hip throw but I used the hair on head to rip him up and off the ground with, and some of it came out in a bloody clump.

I think BJJ is nice, but nothing the Shaijiuo in Xingyi or Bagua can't match.

Pedor seemed nice and didn't react much to what was happening with me. I doubt he even cared, hell I couldn't care less about it now.

I am the big toad and this is my pond.