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dz
01-07-2001, 12:57 PM
Greetings,

The Filippine MAs are well-known to be
effective against armed opponents,
especially those with bladed weapons
such as knives.

Now, it's also well-known that Chinese
internal arts are effective in self-defense
and unarmed combat. But what about knives
and fighting against armed opponents?

My question is, how do you people,
practising an internal art, train to defend
yourselves against a blade? Are you using
methods from Filippine or MAs from other
countries/cultures? Or do you think that
the methods/techniques within your own
system are good enough? If so, what style
do you practise and what methods do you
use?

Regards,
Mark (yes, Wai is my Chinese name)

Kristoffer
01-07-2001, 02:22 PM
"PTCC/WTCC, some other styles as well"

what's ptcc and wtcc?

~K~
the super-duper supreme

dz
01-07-2001, 02:36 PM
I assume that you are referring to another
of my posts on this board. PTCC/WTCC is the
name of the style of Tai Chi Chuan I'm
practising, Practical/Wudang Tai Chi Chuan.
More information on PTCC/WTCC can be found on
<A HREF="http://www.taichichuan.co.uk." TARGET="_blank">www.taichichuan.co.uk.</A>

What style/styles and where in Stockholm do
you practise?

Regards,
Mark

PS. Yes, I do speak Swedish, but this IS
an international board after all. :)

count
01-07-2001, 03:57 PM
Do you mean unarmed defense or do I get a choice of weapons to defend with? There are many different "in-close" methods from the chinese internal styles. In bagua we have deerhorn knives, judges pens, and daggers among others. All of the techniques are brutal to the bone. Fortunatly, I have never had to use them in real life situations to stab, slice, shave or cut an enemy. I know the techniques of the Filippines are effective as they have been necessary and effective for street survival. They work. But in response to your question, there are an equal number of knife techniqes in Chinese martial arts. There is really no reason to borrow from other styles for this particular situation. Anyway, a weapon is only an extension of the arm and if I were using one it would come from the styles I have learned.

Sam Wiley
01-07-2001, 11:09 PM
The Internal arts contain very good defenses against bladed weapons. While other arts are now famous for their knife defenses, the Internal arts contain methods just as effective. I have seen some of the training from other systems, and the same methods or ones very similar are found in Taiji and Bagua.

We usually train these methods with a fake knife, however, I have also tested many of them against live blades and they work.

*********
"To enter is to be born, to retreat is to die."
-An Old Taijiquan Saying

Kristoffer
01-08-2001, 03:27 PM
oh, I see..

I train at 'sthlm wushu akademi' <A HREF="http://www.swewushufed.com" TARGET="_blank">www.swewushufed.com</A>
the style is O Shin Shuen.

~K~
the super-duper supreme

Kristoffer
01-08-2001, 03:30 PM
<A HREF="http://www.swewushufed.se" TARGET="_blank">www.swewushufed.se</A>
sorry :rolleyes:

~K~
the super-duper supreme

Esteban
01-08-2001, 05:18 PM
Hi,

great question, but I think part of the reason for it is that very few tjq schools teach empty-hand against blade techniques. The techniques, as another poster said, are certainly there. But, I'd make an even stronger argument. Imho, tjq and bagua, being based on either yielding or evasion, use inherently effective strategies for combatting a blade. Well, simply put, any system that depends on "blocking" has to worry more about sharp weapons. Anyway, tjq and bagua also have weapons training. Big knife (halberd), little knife (saber), very small knife (from fan to fingernail), these are just different lengths for the same weapon. Hmm, reminds me. There's an old karate book that's called "My Hand is My Sword."

Respects,
Esteban

dz
01-08-2001, 05:58 PM
First, thank you all that contributed with
interesting answers to my question. But I
must point out that I didn't put my question
correctly. I wasn't wondering if there are
techniques and methods for unarmed knife/blade
defense (since I know that they exist), I was
rather wondering if the existing material is
pressure tested and "good" enough for
modern street self defense.

I do know that most Chinese Internal styles have
weapon techniques incorporated, but how many
of modern practitioners learn to use them
correctly and effectively, like FMA practitioners
do for an example. Why the Filippine/Indonesian
systems are so good at knife fighting/defense
is, as another poster pointed out, that they
have been necessary for street survival in the
social structure of these countries.

Yes, knives and other weapons are extensions
of the arm. But there is a major difference
between a blade and a hand; while you must
do a correct connection with your hand to
deliver your technique, a blade needs much less
power and precision to do serious damage.

Sam Wiley, I got particulary interested in
your post. How, more exactly, do you train
with the fake/real knife?

Sorry, too much rambling. :)

Regards,
Wai (OK OK, I'll try to be consistent with
my name!)

5thBrother
05-18-2003, 10:16 AM
.

miscjinx
05-19-2003, 06:41 AM
"My question is, how do you people, practising an internal art, train to defend yourselves against a blade?"

My old taiji class (Yang Lu Chan via student of Erle) trained with rubber knives and such. We used our taiji to defend. You could disarm someone with a knife with a good internally powered wingblock (once did it to my instructor).

Once you are moving internally and could generate some power (explosive power - fajing - in particular) - I would say just play with someone attacking you with a rubber knife. You learn a lot that way.

I don't think enough of this has been explored (or known) by most taiji people - but with my own experience in some of this kind of training, I know the defenses are there.

Black Jack
05-19-2003, 09:47 AM
If your system does not teach the aggressive use of a knife, and by that I mean a knife and not a halbred or a sword, it really is not going to get a deep and functional understanding of its defense.

The same one linear that grapplers use also extends to the discipline of knife combatives. "To best defend against a grappling technique you have to train in a grappling art."

To best defend against a knife attack you have to train in a system which has a primary element of short-blade work.

FMA's, IMA's, Kuntao, Military Combatives, Hwarang-do, Danse de Rue, Banashay, Tanto-Jutsu, Krabi Karbong, Spanish Navaja, Lua, are just a few off the top of my head.

Chimpy Nuts
05-20-2003, 04:03 AM
Originally posted by
PTCC/WTCC is the
name of the style of Tai Chi Chuan I'm
practising, Practical/Wudang Tai Chi Chuan.

Regards,
Mark

PS. Yes, I do speak Swedish, but this IS
an international board after all. :)

Do you happen to have a really short last name? If so, I think we might have met in Linköping earlier this year.
:)

Chimpy

dz
05-20-2003, 06:56 AM
OMG, revival of a two-year-old thread.

Chimpy, true. Who are you? :)

Chimpy Nuts
05-20-2003, 01:51 PM
The one who pushed hands with you and Mikael in the big guys weight category. I'm lighter now
:D

Liokault
05-20-2003, 03:14 PM
LOL KFO has such a big PTCC following we should have our own section.

dz
05-20-2003, 10:26 PM
Chimpy, you mean the guy who whooped my a$$ and pushed with Mikael? :D

How is everything doing, and what's up with the weight loss? Shaping up before a competition?

Shuul Vis
05-21-2003, 12:08 AM
what?

Chimpy Nuts
05-21-2003, 12:23 AM
Originally posted by dz
Chimpy, you mean the guy who whooped my a$$ and pushed with Mikael? :D

How is everything doing, and what's up with the weight loss? Shaping up before a competition?

I didn't whoop nobody's a$$. Just pushed and pulled a bit. :D

Very busy here, but other than that things are fine. I'm shaping up just for the fun of it. One needs to have goals in life. :)

I replied to this discussion because it seemed interesting. If you like, I can talk some more.


Chimpy

P.S.: Say "Hi!" to Paul and Mikael from me.

dz
05-21-2003, 09:32 AM
Please write more :) Or if you prefer, let's take it over e-mail.

I'll send your "Hi" to P and M next time I see them.

Chimpy Nuts
05-21-2003, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by dz
Please write more :) Or if you prefer, let's take it over e-mail.

I'll send your "Hi" to P and M next time I see them.

Kewl. I asked because the thread is apparently very old. Hadn't noticed that before and my response might not be relevant anymore.
Anyhoo, if you haven't already, read this first.

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/knifefighting.html

Agree with his points or not, Marc will give you a few things to consider. For the record, I agree with a most that he says but there are a few of his points I would like to emphasize.

First of all, there is a huge gap between training and the reality of a knife attack. Chances are, you won't see the knife until it is coming at you, or worse. If you do see it, it still won't be the same as in the school. Having somebody in front of you who is determined to kill you is not something to be taken lightly. You can't prepare for it in training.

Second, you don't have the luxury of many mistakes. Yes, some people have defended themselves against knife attacks and got away unharmed. But how many others suffered (permanent) injuries after surviving the attack? At any rate, who'd want to depend on the clumsyness of the attacker to make it out in one piece? The knife has the potential to be lethal with just one (even light) touch. As such, you cannot deal with it in the same way as unarmed combat.

Third, I love FMA and Indonesian ones. They are awesome. But they have also been misrepresented of late. They have their strong and weak points, just like any other martial art. Just because they focus on weaponwork does not mean you become invulnerable to a blade down your gut. If you look at military and Western blade training, you will see lots of very strong systems too. Systems that cover things you usually don't find in the Oriental ones.

All that said, yes, tai chi chuan has plenty of techniques/concepts that can work against a knife attack. The trick is recognizing how you need to adapt them for the specifics of the knife when compared to unarmed attacks. There's no easy answers there. Lots of skullsweat and tons more training.

To quote a wise man "I could be deadwrong too."

Chimpy

dz
05-22-2003, 01:33 AM
I've always found Mr Young's stuff interesting. I will certainly look more into that - thanks!

As for the FMA - Dan did once speak quite highly about a Swede called Johan Skålberg (the president for the IKAEF - http://www.ikaef.com/english/).

Gotta go, speak to you later!

Chimpy Nuts
05-22-2003, 07:06 AM
Don't get me wrong, I love South-East Asian arts. I study them and am always amazed at how rich and wonderful they are. There's also tons of excellent teachers out there. My point is that however great, these styles are, they offer no guarantees. There are none.
If anything, that is what I like least about the FMA and Indo martial arts community. I've seen too many practitioners with bad attitudes because they feel their art is superior due to the emphasis on weapons.

Chimpy

GeneChing
05-22-2003, 09:26 AM
If memory serves, Aikido was developed primarily as a defense agains sword by unarmed defenders. Of the non CMA, it's fair to say the aikido is the most 'internal.' But I never really considered tai chi against knife applications. On an aside, I feel that some of the xingyi dragon applications are akin to what little I know of aikido and I imagine some of the bagua apps to be similar.

ShaolinWood
05-22-2003, 01:40 PM
I would definitely trust Taiji against a knife attack. Even though anything can go wrong, the chances are still there.

one of the principals of training (what I do in Chen Style) is to block on the elbow when executing a defensive move. The levels of Push hands emphasise this and that's why you do this over and over and over...

Exersise and experience will prevail though, and there's no substitute for a little exposure to a test:Like someone stated: let your buddy try some at you, someone without martial training.

But Someone like Ren Guang Yi would most certainly not stand down to a knife attack!

bob10
05-22-2003, 02:32 PM
Out of interest, has anyone seen Ren or CXW or any of the top taiji teachers teaching or practicing knife work?

ShaolinWood
05-22-2003, 03:03 PM
But Ren Guang Yi's dissiple Shifu Jose Figoroa has shown some great moves.
And I've seen video tapes of Shifu Guang Yi Ren showing application.

But hands on I've experienced Shifu José's excelent precision and skill. Never in my life have I experienced such speed and controll, on that I will no doubt place my trust as excelent martial skill!

The most important point in a fight situation is super fast reflex with complete control/presision. And that only comes with time and experience and dedicated training. No 2-week-self-defense course will teach you that!

Is the techniques there? In proper taiji, yes definitely. But not all taiji schools practice martial taiji nowadays, more and more "health taiji" schools appear.

"Today, most people practice Taijiquan to maintain health or cure sickness. For the last fifty years the martial aspects of Taijiquan have been ignored, and the art is now incomplete. Most practitioners no longer understand the martial applications of Taijiquan, or even that it is a martial art." -Dr Yang Jwing Ming

Does this give a bit of background?

bob10
05-22-2003, 03:25 PM
But was that knife defence work specifically or just the usual application stuff? I ask because in all my years in taiji, other than Erle Montaigue (who some would question anyway, no doubt), I never saw a teacher work specifically or in any great depth on knife defence (or gourd work come to that!)

ShaolinWood
05-22-2003, 03:51 PM
My Shifu has videos of Shifu Ren doing applications on Stefan(one of his other Dissiples) I think it's for sale, Don't know where though, will try to find out for you.

Butt Shifu José definitely showed us many knife applications, although he always start of with his "run-fu" story, meaning don't do this unless you can't do run-fu at all.

Yes, many movements in the forms he especially explained as being a knife technique(one of the many) i.e:
White crane spred wings(38 San Shi Ba),
Hidden hand punch(the side step end wide ward off is very effective against knife or weapon attack)

Many movements can be successfully applied, one just need to train them and if your taiji skill is good(martial skill) you will understand the principal of movement, how to move with an apponent and how to make your apponent move like you want to.

If you reach this level (In Chen, and other styles aswell, this level is known as the 4th level of skill) (there are 5 levels of skill-well according to Chen syllabis) you will know how to apply anything, it sounds stupid, but the forms and training drills, Silk reeling etc are guides to help one understand the principals of movement, and then one can addapt to any situation. Ask any great master, they just react naturally.

The aim is to be natural. To be able to adapt. And to think clear in a fraction of a second.

Black Jack
05-22-2003, 05:48 PM
I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

Again if your style does not work with the offensive aspects of blade combatives in some degree or form you really are not going to get as deep as training in close quarter knife defense as a style which revolves around that range of combat.

To say that you trust your taji or that their are as many answers in gung fu as their are in the fma's in regards to knife defense does not seem to really hold up to me as I have yet to see anybody ever post anything of depth from that perspective who just does a strict internal style without crossbreeding.

The problem with countering a knife attack is that some convential techniques would actually be the worst counter-measures against a blade. Edged weapons cut on both the thrust and on the retraction which means almost any contact between knife and body can open up a wound channel.

By working with the blade in a offensive fashion you learn about your own presentation of vulnerable points and how lightening fast and non-zombie like those movements really come in.

dz
05-23-2003, 12:41 AM
Chimpy,
I hear ya, bad attitude is conter-productive in all aspects of MA. You're truly right about the no-guarantee - not even guns can guarantee you a no-harm outcome of a physical confrontation. I'd like to see TCC as my main system, though I wouldn't mind learning from other styles as well as complement where it's suitable. Do you practise knife defense and from what system(s) do you learn? I presume Mr. Young and Mr. Orlando are a couple of your influences. :)

Black Jack wrote:
> I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train
> with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

Me too :D But then again, why would anyone want to share their good stuff for free on the internet? That's why I was surprised when someone revived this old thread.

Chimpy Nuts
05-25-2003, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Black Jack
I have yet to read unless I missed a post how you train with your internal style to defend against a bladed attack?

The problem with countering a knife attack is that some convential techniques would actually be the worst counter-measures against a blade.

By working with the blade in a offensive fashion you learn about your own presentation of vulnerable points and how lightening fast and non-zombie like those movements really come in.


Tai chi has both sword and sabre techniques. Plenty of ground to cover regarding edged weapons in both offense and defense.

Like I said before, you need to adapt your training and techniques to the situation at hand. A sword is not a knife and vice versa. A kerambit is not a Bowie is not a golok. You need to understand the differences and adapt accordingly. It is so in F/Indo-MAs and it is no different in tai chi. There are no superior arts. Each has strong and weak points regarding (un)armed fighting. And people are different too. But it's surprising sometimes to see the similarities between those arts on a conceptual level.


Chimpy

Chimpy Nuts
05-25-2003, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by dz
I'd like to see TCC as my main system, though I wouldn't mind learning from other styles as well as complement where it's suitable. Do you practise knife defense and from what system(s) do you learn? I presume Mr. Young and Mr. Orlando are a couple of your influences. :)

But then again, why would anyone want to share their good stuff for free on the internet? That's why I was surprised when someone revived this old thread.

TCC is a complete system. The tools you need are there and you are very free to experiment with them. Understanding them and being able to use them adequately in different situations is an entirely different matter. That takes the training and skullsweat I mentioned before. I train in other systems because for one thing, it's my job. Also, I love to train so I do whatever I can get somebody to teach me. More below.

Dan and I talked a bit when I was in your neck of the woods. One of the things discussed was the need to look at other styles and arts if you want to keep progressing. It's not just about techniques, but about understanding how things work and how you can learn your own art better by exchanging it with people from another art.
This is not uncommon in scientific communities. When great scientists from different disciplines (medecin, physics, math, etc.) come together and tackle a problem they sometimes form what is called a "great group". Alone, each person is powerful in his own field. Together, they yield much more results by offering eachother a different view/aproach/way of thinking unknown or underemphasized in the other ones discipline. The Manhattan Project was an example of this. We all know what that produced.

Marc, Bob and a ton of others are great influences on what I do, both with weapons and without. Not really for the techniques they show but for the knowledge and understanding they teach me. Learning from them or studying another art improves my understanding of tai chi immensly.

As for showing stuff, how can I show a technique on an online forum? :D
Seriously, try this: Combine 7 star step and the defensive parts of 4 directions in as many different variations as you can imagine. Then, see how you can use all that against a thrusting knife attack to your abdomen. But only add arm movements at the end. Experiment with footwork and body evasion first. The arms come last. Pay particular attention to weight distribution; it's the key to make it work.
You might be surprised at how interesting it can get. :D

Chimpy

dz
05-27-2003, 05:30 AM
Hey, thanks Chimpy - interesting points! Maybe you can show us some stuff in October? One more question, what do you think about groundfighting from a TCC (self defense, not ring fighting) point of view?

Chimpy Nuts
05-27-2003, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by dz
Hey, thanks Chimpy - interesting points! Maybe you can show us some stuff in October? One more question, what do you think about groundfighting from a TCC (self defense, not ring fighting) point of view?

No prob. Have fun with it. :) Remind me in October and we can do some of it then.

Groundfighting for SD sucks whatever the point of view. Too many things can go wrong. I try to avoid going to the ground alltogether if I can. If I'm taken there, I try to get up ASAP. As a sport it's great and you can learn some excellent things from it, but as a primary SD strategy, I'd say it's very dangerous.

A dear friend of mine once got seriously stomped because he went to the ground on the street. Another friend routinely makes people fall to the ground when he fights. Once there, he deals out the serious pain. All the rest before that is just playing nice.

Groundwork is just another range you need to know about. It's no more difficult than standing upright and fighting long-medium-close range. Just different. For SD, it has very limited application IMO.

dz
05-27-2003, 07:34 AM
> [..] but as a primary SD strategy, I'd say it's very dangerous.

Yeah, especially if we combine this with the possibility of knives.

Do you do any specific training for the "getting up ASAP" part (I would like to add "... and doing as much damage as possible on the way")?

Black Jack
05-27-2003, 12:29 PM
It's not the same. To say that a system which only has elements of one study in its curriculum is the same as a system which makes a large part of those elements its basic core is something I don't agree with.

I practice fma and ima and am a fan of blade work and theory in both the south-east asian and western context.

To make it more of a direct question as it was still not answered I will ask you since you posted. How do you train for offensive based knife useage?

What basic fundamentals does your style instill in direct knive/blade training? What kind of primary and secondary vital templates or angles of attack do you use? How does it address defense rythem and movement? Elements of range? What about personal carry systems? Grip Preference? Stance? Execution of techniques? Training aids and drills? Methods of Entry/Deception? Do you use Tueller's 21 foot rule as a judgement of distance in defense?

Give specific info.

TaiChiBob
05-28-2003, 04:41 AM
Greetings..

At the risk of sounding too philosophical, Tai Chi is inundated with practical blade defenses.. Yeilding and absorbing is akin to the opponent trying to cut water, the sister art of Chin Na is applied at the maximum extension of the blade wielder's strike.. I, personally, teach knife defenses from a perspective of Tai Chi and Chin Na quite effectively for standard street application.... BUT, a well trained Indo or Filipino will usually turn you into cut-bait..

My partner teaches blades, JKD, sticks, shoot-fighting, NHB, etc.. the hard stuff.. i teach the soft stuff, Tai Chi, Chin Na, QiGong.. we cross-train and use each other and our students to evaluate the overall effectiveness of our respective arts, Blades in well trained hands should be avoided (trust me).. blades in the hands of amatures are no real problem..

Be well..

ShaolinWood
05-28-2003, 05:02 AM
Yes, I would say that when you are in a situation of having to defend yourself against a knife attack you must already have done all you could to not be in that situation, meaning you are now literally defending for your life. In this situation anyone who has any martial training is already better of than someone with none, meaning your reflexes should be better and you panic less.

To come to Black Jack's question, (stating direct) I would say (I'm thinking what comes to mind):
_ When implementing defensive techniques, focus on simultanious stepping out of direction of attack (when attacker uses frontal attack) with blocking on elbow to avoid contact with knife. Grabs and Chin Na should only be attempted when you are safely out of the attackers comfort area.
_ Techniques like trapping hands and sidesteps would be the safest to "line the attacker up" for your attack or Chin Na.
_ Mostly avoid getting close while the attacker still has control of the weapon, and do not try to kick the knife out of his hands: The first reaction would be to turn the blade towards your foot because he will cover for his face with other hand.

This is just what I think, would like to hear some comments. Mostly If you are facing a skilled knife fighter, your chances are better than none. I cant really say anything for certain, haven't been in that situation

Chimpy Nuts
05-29-2003, 11:44 AM
Originally posted by Black Jack
It's not the same.

To make it more of a direct question as it was still not answered I will ask you since you posted. How do you train for offensive based knife useage?

What basic fundamentals does your style instill in direct knive/blade training? What kind of primary and secondary vital templates or angles of attack do you use? How does it address defense rythem and movement? Elements of range? What about personal carry systems? Grip Preference? Stance? Execution of techniques? Training aids and drills? Methods of Entry/Deception? Do you use Tueller's 21 foot rule as a judgement of distance in defense?

Give specific info.

First of all, if you still feel it's not the same, then we'll have to agree to disagree. No point of going further. Which leads us to the second part of your post.
I gave you a specific response in a post to dz regarding seven stars and four directions training. It's just one example, though. But would answering any of your other "questions" really change your mind? Since you already stated it is not the same. Quite frankly, the tone of your post makes me feel I can't change your mind however hard I try. What would you accept as proof you being wrong?

Chimpy Nuts
05-29-2003, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by TaiChiBob
I, personally, teach knife defenses from a perspective of Tai Chi and Chin Na quite effectively for standard street application.... BUT, a well trained Indo or Filipino will usually turn you into cut-bait..

Blades in well trained hands should be avoided (trust me).. blades in the hands of amatures are no real problem..



I couldn't agree more with your first point. But that's hardly surprising. I/FMAs are designed to work against skilled opponents or as Col. Applegate said "They're for duelling". They have traps within traps within traps. If you study them, you are training to deal with someone who is a skilled fighter. And that is a losing proposition, especially with knives. An unarmed trained fighter against an armed (knife) trained fighter is easy: the former dies. The knife is too much of an advantage. But take a well trained US Marine with combat experience, give him a knife and you're just as dead.

As for amateurs not being a problem, I couldn't disagree more. The biggest advantage the amateur has is his unpredicatbility. He usually comes from angles that are so unorthodox that it surprises you. And he can end the fight with just one touch because the knife will do all the work for him. He can hit and miss plenty of times. You can't miss once. There are no guarantees in a fight.

Chimpy

Muppet
05-29-2003, 12:40 PM
The best (and simplest) test I heard of is the marker test.

Get a nice, soft-tipped permanent marker and a partner and see how many times you or your partner gets marked (stabbed).

In the hands of amateurs, slashes generally aren't as much of a concern anyway, but I have a feeling that most people who've trained for disarms are in for a bit of a surprise.

Hmm, but what's a basic effective knife stance? At least against someone unarmed?

My thought is some variant of a boxing stance, keeping the left hand leading with the right hand holding the knife.
This way, when moving in for the kill, the left arm can jam or slap away any pesky attempts at disarms.

But I'd be a complete beginner with a knife, so I'm only making a guess.

Black Jack
05-29-2003, 01:17 PM
My point of questioning those kind of blanket statements is to see where you come up with those assumptions and how.

To be honest since this is the third time I have asked you to explain to me your systems specific approach to knife combatives and how that it is the same or just as indepth as an art who revolves around the use of bladed weapons I really don't expect much now and could care less.

Chimpy Nuts
05-29-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by dz
> cDo you do any specific training for the "getting up ASAP" part (I would like to add "... and doing as much damage as possible on the way")?

Try this here for more info:
http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/booksvideos.html#floor_fighting
It has some good material for what you're looking for. IIRC, Mande Muda silat has a couple interesting concepts regarding going to the ground and getting up again.

In a nutshell, stop fighting it when you know you're about to go to the ground. Once it's inevitable, try to land on top of the dude and bounce off him as you hit the ground. There is a big difference in fighting somebody who wants to stay there and duke it out and somebody who want to run away as fast as he can. Ever tried to catch a cat?
:D

Chimpy

Chimpy Nuts
05-29-2003, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Black Jack
My point of questioning those kind of blanket statements is to see where you come up with those assumptions and how.

To be honest since this is the third time I have asked you to explain to me your systems specific approach to knife combatives and how that it is the same or just as indepth as an art who revolves around the use of bladed weapons I really don't expect much now and could care less.

Fine by me. Just one final question: If it is so much below standard, then why do you train tai chi and its edged weapons?

Chimpy

KKD
05-30-2003, 07:56 AM
we've used the highlighter (magic marker -non permanent) with white t-shirts (and safety goggles) to see how 'effective' a real full force attack can be defended against and as far as we can tell our ba-gua holds its own. This is not an attack like some traditional karate schools teach (lunge thrust), this is a fast attack of shuffle, grab, stab, slash etc etc....

I think that the inherent design of these martial systems WAS mainly for edged weapon defense since most people 100 years ago (or longer now) did NOT have guns, so they carried swords, knives etc routinely (especially if they were the baddies)...

Another point I think we're missing here is that if a person has not been exposed to a true internal artist, then they cannot appreciate the utter speed at which they can move. My instructor is literally the softest, loosest little man you've ever met, yet he is not even a blur. Your mind says its not possible to move that fast (and I've seen lots of young guys fight), yet he does it. Its just da.mn incredible, seriously. There is also the effect of 'knowing' almost what the energy/mental intent of the attacker is doing so you can sense 'how' the attack is coming.. Until you've seen it, done it yourself, you cant appreciate it.

This is again why most people dont put in the proper amount of time in the internal arts, since it DOES take a decade or more to do these things, but once there, there is no equal.... IMHO....

again... my .02...

Black Jack
05-30-2003, 08:38 AM
I don't know where you got that I studied tai chi unless it was when I posted "ima" but I used it as generic reference to indo-martial arts not internal martial arts.

In specific Malaysian but I thought mma would look like mixed martial arts.

Chimpy Nuts
06-03-2003, 04:48 AM
Originally posted by Black Jack
I don't know where you got that I studied tai chi unless it was when I posted "ima" but I used it as generic reference to indo-martial arts not internal martial arts.


Ah. My mistake. So if you don't study it, how can you compare it and deem it less effective than the Indo/Filipino ones regarding bladed weapons?